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Thanks for the interest, but we'd rather rely on the general scholarly consensus that exists across the rest of the world on this matter. It is very widely accepted among classicists and linguists that Allen's statements I pasted above are accurate. We've also been down this exact same path many times before (modern greek speaker drops by to tell us we got it wrong according to their view) and we have always retained the pronunciations Allen details.
Yes I do know that Post-Classic Greek pronunciation is quite different from Ancient Greek, however in the case of the vowel "Υυ" this has not changed as far as we know.
Example,
The sound is that of an "i" as in "Phisics" as far as this letter is concerned in Ancient Greek.Quote:
περὶ ὧν Θισ[β]εῖς λόγους ποιήσαντο· περὶ τῶν καθ᾿αὑ[τ]οὺς πραγμάτων, οίτινες ἐν τῇ φιλίᾳ τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ ἐνέμειναν, ὅπως αὐτοῖς δοθῶσιν [ο]ἷς τὰ καθ᾿ αὑτοὺς πράγματα ἐξηγήσωνται, περὶ τούτου τοῦ πράγματος οὕτως ἔδοξεν· ὅπως Κόιντος Μαίνιος στρατηγὸς τῶν ἐκ τῆς συνκλήτου [π]έντε ἀποτάξῃ οἳ ἂν αὐτῷ ἐκ τῶν δημοσίων πρα[γμ]άτων καὶ τῆς ἰδίας πίστεων φαίνωνται.
[IPA: perì hôːn tʰizbîːs lóɡuːs epojéːsanto; perì tôːn katʰ hautùːs praɡmátoːn, hoítines en tîː pʰilíaːi tîː heːmetéraːi enémiːnan, hópoːs autoîs dotʰôːsin hoîs tà katʰ hautùːs práɡmata ekseːɡéːsoːntai, perì túːtuː tûː práɡmatos húːtoːs édoksen; hópoːs ˈkʷintos ˈmainios strateːɡòs tôːn ek têːs syŋkléːtuː pénte apotáksiː, hoì àn autôːi ek tôːn deːmosíoːn praɡmátoːn kaì têːs idíaːs písteoːs pʰaínoːntai]
Good call thought :)
Your welcome, I would like the sense of immersion, from EB mod to be great as well when listening to this aspect of the mod as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
And yes, the worldly consensus can also be found here: http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html
But as I said, it is really your decision, I shall rest from the thread as is, I made the comment in the spirit of constructive criticism, how you want to receive it evaluate it and do something about it is really up to you.
I do enjoy your work, and play EB, in either case. :)
The fact of the matter is that there can't be one single uniform way to "speak" "υ" and be absolutely correct. Hence we went the academia way.
Y= "ι" sound that is deffinitely koine + neo-greek.
In one of the two modern greek dialects to retain ancient greek elements Pontic (the other being Cypriot Greek), "ΑΥΤΟΣ" is pronounced "a-ou( as in outremer)tos. In mainstream modern greek it would be pronounced a-f-tos.
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I heard a guy pronounce it much like ü/French front u but somewhat close to i. IIRC he was from the islands (Rodos maybe).
Pontic dialect is a world in its own. "Kálū iméra" anyone?
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Kale sou mera, Μουσαφίρη,=guest in greek.
Sorry I missed this one, RL to blame. :2thumbsup:
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Is that attic or what? ~:) The one I posted I had learned orally from a Pontic speaker.
Nope, although you're not the first to think Mouzafphaerre comes from μουσαφίρης it's merely a funny bastardization of Muzaffer (Arabic مظفر ― muẓaffer for victorious, triumphant). ~;)
To add to the nerdness, μουσαφίρης also is actually Arabic مسافر (musāfir). Loaned probably through Turkish (misâfir, arch. müsâfir). :balloon:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Herenow
I am curious...how on earth are you guys gonna work on the Lusotannan..since even the few written remains are highly unclear?!?
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Can't recall the thread but Sarcasm explained that it's a reconstruction work based on Proto-Indo-European and some Q-Celtic.
I'm writing down my kings' names in a sort of Ibero-Hellenic script. V for u, η for e everywhere except for diphthongs such as ει. Hail ΤΑΝΤΑΛΟΣ ΛVΣΟΤΑΝΑΚVΜ and his holy offspring! :charge:
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They could use Basque maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusitani
:flowers:
Amazing!
You guys never fail to astonish me. Yet I should by now be quite accustomed to your mastership, I still enjoy very much seeing how people make a huge effort to achieve their professional goal. I know that such research can only be powered by love, let's call it the scholar's agape for sophia. I once wrote a thesis on Staging of Betrayal in a MHG novel, i.e. 1400 years after EB, and even that was far out, especially, when we had to...well enunciate/pronounce/vocalize it, cause there's no real knowing of how it really was, and what they came up with sounded totally weird. A real cacophonic farce of the German language. A barking, raucous sough, intermixed with sliding moments of very heavy intoxication or maybe even idiocy, lol, coarse hints of avenues to recognition - and MHG is a form of German, after all, just 1000 years ago it comes across as totally absurd, and suddenly I realized: that's what German sounds like in some Southern ears!
Lol.
Cause imhe, when Italians or Spaniards or Brazilians want to mock the sound of German, it sounds perfectly like MHG. It's so funny.
Imagine what proto-Germanic must have sound like?
WOW!
Short of Caveman, I suggest. :laugh4:
I am really looking further to hearing from you!
LBR
Way to go for a thread resurrection! You EB people always do things in style. I like. ^_^
Basque is about as far as we could go for in trying representing any of the Iberian language. The only people that spoke anything similar to Basque were, well, Basques.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack
Lusitanian is a sort of proto-Celtic language that has a few ligurian elements in it in my opinion. So think archaic Celtic (as in so archaic it's essentially on the border of what's Celtic or not) with various influences that come afterwards including later forms of Celtic.
Oh, and btw, Lusitanian is not unclear at all. We understand what exists, the problem is that there isn't a whole lot to go by (though the language stays amazingly coherent throughout the 4 examples that exist).
Any news on Punic or Armenian? Ive been holding out on trying them out in 1.1.
I'm guessing the voicemods will come out as independant patches rather than as part of a 1.2?
NICE!!! looking forward to at least 1 semetic language. the Germanic one will be great and I am looking forward to more than just the names. Armenain would be nice as well-I'll finally be able to understand at least a microscopic part about one of my old neighbors back in kuwait...
just please do me on favor. follow this link's guide abou if you haven't yet mastered the Aying:) (just wanna help) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_...geal_fricative
though scrap the frictive part with approximent. (they even mention that)
its good. following it did not lead to a wierd Ayin. unless you are already doing so
wait...abuk masri?! "your dad's Egyptian?"
Hasn't Phoenician and Punic been nearly erased from history? I know Hebrew is similar though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaywalker-Jack
My knowledge on this dosn't go any further than wikipedia's entry. Apparently Phoenician is not completely lost to us.
We've already covered all of this. I was very specific to my voice actors about getting the ayin right. The punic voicemod is technically recorded and done, just not implemented yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahim
Yes and no. Modern Hebrew isn't true Hebrew at all, but rather a Phoenician dialect. Dr. Charles R. Krahmalkov, and others, have reconstructed a Phoenician grammar and glossary based on neopunic poetry. Neo-punic is the punic spoken after Roman brutalization and occupation in the 3rd Punic War. Neo-Punic was written on pottery in Latin, and is spoken in some form all the way up to the point where the Vandals sacked Carthage. There's a lot you can find out from archaeological digs, and some detective-work, if you're dedicated to piece together this stuff. We used Krahmalkov's dictionary and grammar extensively, and we also emailed with him. Punic is very similar to modern hebrew, with a few exceptions such as the sound of Ayin, the implementation and use of Aleph in words and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf The Great
^I could have sworn they have a lot of old punic examples to work with?
I know if you guys ever where to tackle a Southern Arabian dialect, you have a ton of material to work with, at least leftover wise (which makes me wonder, how literate was their society? I mean, true, those inscribing could only be a few people, but still, there is so many if I'm correct)
if their northern nomadic neighbors (i.e ancient Arabs) are a clue, they were very illiterate. Maybe a little more literate than nomads, but still far lower then greeks and Romans..Quote:
Originally Posted by russia almighty
I do not think that is true at all; The Southern Arabian civilization were to the contrary very literate societies. You cannot use the Hejazi yard-stick as a measurement to assess the cultural sophistication and literacy in ancient Yemen's cultural landscape (Which has always been the most cosmopolitan area in the Arabian peninsula, until the Lakhmids under the Muntherid dynasty managed to cultivate the northern-Arabian wastelands, with extending infuence as far as present day Oman). There are easily hundreds of inscriptions in the Musnad script, and the bulk of them have yet to be translated.
Yemen continued to be a hub of civilization in Arabia well into the Himyarite succession and the later Sassanian occupation (Which formally established Sana'a as capital of the area, a very pivotal decision since the collapse of the famed dams of Mar'ib). Unfortunately, academical dogmas have repressed Southern Arabian civilization to such degree that most are not aware of their existance; When Arabian empires are brought up we almost instantly think of the advent of Islam, and "instant enlightenment", the various Caliphates and Emirates, the Crusades, et al. Part of this is also ascribed by the common thought of pre-Islamic Arabia being "barbarous" and "lawless". Facts fortunately tell us of a vastly different situation.
^TPC, I should have said literacy rate.
Of the one's translated, how random are some? Are they pretty much tax,population documents,religious rites, or do they get into stuff like, how to hammer out a piece of iron, how to use an ox the right way, more utilitarian material you know?
I do not read Musnad, let alone call myself an expert (A privilege only a few true erudite persons can call themselves, such as Dr. Juris Zarins; He cracked a hole in the myth of the "lost city of Ubar", by not only locating the site but also explaining the fragility of the myth), but I do imagine that most of it would be in the category that you have mentioned; Either homage or described religious ritual, inscribed into a larger, more publically available surface or media, or something less such as administrative documents, inventories and census (You know, for wages or assignments... An ideal example would be the Persepolis fortification or Elamite tablets, where we get a lot of formalities, basic arithmetics and so forth).
I would estimate that it is mostly administrative stuff (As they tend to be more abundant amongst civilizations that have depended mostly on archaeology rather than the classics as a main corpus of information), but then again, we must not understimate administrative literati, because they are the key in attesting the position of a scribe, but also attesting a viable format as well as basic math in the same context. It is in this boring, mundane stuff we get to appreciate the complexity of a society which puts enough weight and priority of importance to make such records.
As for literacy rates... I have this rather... I should say unorthodox perception (It is), but I believe that civilizations that prioritize commerce, and live at the cross-roads of several lingua franca, do by ethos have a higher literacy rate; Not because of the prevalence of education, but rather because of a contemporary form of social darwinism, compelling merchants to improve themselves by actively pursuing knowledge. Let us take the Parthians as an example; They knew how to handle the Chinese, and their mastery in keeping their lucrative trading contracts, by actually cheating them on correct information (Exaggeration of distances between the Han and the Romans, hazards of nomads, et al.). The Nabataeans and Sabaeans engaged in a similar contest when it came to dominance in the Red Sea, the Incense Route, the later Maritime Incense Route, and ultimately the shares in India.
I merely mistakenly said that their literacy rate was low. never correlated that with sofistication... and I meant literacy rate, not whether they were literal or not.
A literacy rate per capita or census is one of the most difficult things to assess in the studies of social history, especially if we are looking after a raw figure or range; We may derive that all civilizations of this time and age were largely illiterate, especially the majority of artisans/peasantry. Proper education was largely reserved for nobility, and some must have been acquired by the merchant's class as well. We therefore tread into a much fuzzier topic; Before the instititutionalization of public education of any sorts, this appears to have been a consistent trend throughout the course of history.
Indeed. Basque is even pre-Indo-European, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
Four inscriptions? All I know of is three: Lomas de Moledo, Cabeço das Fraguas and Arroyo de Cáceres. All of them written in Latin. Which one is the fourth? Yes, Lusitanian language is a language derived of the Celtic language but with more Indo-European elements than the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm