Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only

I've been a fan since beta STW, I was always amoung the 1st line to buy the TW games as soon as they reach the shops, but this SecuRom is too disapointing. Tomorrow will be the 1st day Kindom on sale here in Adelaide, I will give it a pass the 1st time. If it still exist in ETW, I guess I won't buy it as well. I will reconsider to buy if this issue gets solved. May be most of the people don't care much and will try the Kingdom anyway, it's a small risk by the sounds of it, but I don't like to take any risk, I wants full control of my own PC, not to say how CA/ SEGA is treating their royal customers .....

1) On Aug 31, I installed Kingdoms
2) On Sept 2, I fired up “City of Heroes” (an MMORPG) and it patched itself with a patch released 08/30

When I tried to play “City of Heroe” after patching up on Sunday, if I tried to log in on a character that was in an outside environment the game would lock up before the loading in process finished. One time it did completely load in on a character which was outside – and after loading in I had framerate of less that 1, then it locked up.

I rebooted and tried logging into a different character - at this point I was just trying to log successfully log in on any of my characters - as it happened, the character I tried was in an indoor environment. I was able to move around and do what one normally does, I used the showfps command and found frame rate was only 38 or so. Pretty low for an indoor environment but, acceptable. I then took the character out into the world where you can actually play and boom! Fps dropped to .07 followed by lockup.

After a reboot, I noted that the only difference between the character that loaded in and the two that didn’t was that the one that did was ‘indoors’. I then made a lucky guess and loaded in on a different character who was ‘indoors’. I stayed on that character, without leaving that inside environ to see what would happen and eventually got an “out of memory” system message.

Log out, reboot, fire up task manager, log back in on that character while running task manager and I sit there watching the memory usage escalate.

O.k, it wouldn’t be the first time a CoH patch caused a memory leak so off to the official forums I go to see what is being said about it and…nothing (at this time, I still didn’t know SecuROM was involved with Kingdoms). No one else is squawking about a memory leak or anything. One post that did catch my eye said that CoX would not run after Bioshock was installed. Nothing really concrete there but, it got me thinking that I did just install Kingdoms and other than the patch that is all that happened.

I hop over to the total war forums and find the SecuROM thread and how Kingdoms includes SecuROM which is also used in BioShock yadda.

Hmmmm. So, that installed and now I have a memory leak that I didn’t have before. CoX patches have caused memory leaks in the game before but, there would be more people than just me bitching if that was the case. Maybe I found my culprit?

I rolled back to the restore point that was made just prior to installing Kingdoms and tried CoH, to find the same issues. Then I did a system search and found secuROm was still there. Even though I rolled back to a pre-Kingdoms restorepoint….

I downloaded the reg editing utility that post from Tom’s Hardware mentioned in how to remove secuROM after unistalling the bioshock demo but, that utility didn’t seem run on Vista. (the command line interface window flashes up briefly and goes away)

At this point I may not have enough evidence to satisfy those of you who want the same provenance you would need as if you were a federal judge issuing a warrant but, I do have a problem that didn’t exist before, and I have enough circumstantial evidence to satisfy me that I have my perp. I will keep digging – I have no choice, I pay monthly to play CoH and now I can’t!

As much as I enjoy TW and Kingdoms, it pisses me off that the game installs this software without my knowledge or consent. It pisses me off more that I can’t simply uninstall it when I find out about it and decide I don’t want it. It REALLY pisses me off that this is only a problem for people like me who took the time to go buy a legitimate copy of the game!!! The crakerz and hackers have already cracked the game and removed the secuROM. The people stealing it don’t have to deal with this [censored]!

God! That pisses me off!

Actually, it seems its getting worse even.

So far, we had been assuming M2TW uses SafeDisc (OK) and Kingdoms uses SecuROM (Intrusive).
Well, looks like it changed.
I've just read elsewhere, that with 1.3, the vanilla M2TW exe file is now also SecuROM 7 rather than SafeDisc.
Of course, not having the 1.3 exe makes it kind of difficult to verify on my end, but if someone who has 1.3 installed (from Kingdoms or elsewhere) would like to check on its protection status (legally) using ProtectionID, that would be useful.

VIQ: CAN I install Kingdoms without internetconnection? Yes or No? Can someone answer this.

@ stranger
no kingdoms wont work without SECUROM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crpcarrot

@ stranger
no kingdoms wont work without SECUROM

---

So if I understand correctly, I won't be able to install Kingdoms as my Game PC has no Internet Connection ? Right ?

What the...?

A person does not need an internet connection to be able to install M2TW - Kingdoms.

We good? Clear enough?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraggenmor

1) On Aug 31, I installed Kingdoms
2) On Sept 2, I fired up “City of Heroes” (an MMORPG) and it patched itself with a patch released 08/30

When I tried to play “City of Heroe” after patching up on Sunday, if I tried to log in on a character that was in an outside environment the game would lock up before the loading in process finished. One time it did completely load in on a character which was outside – and after loading in I had framerate of less that 1, then it locked up.

---

Quoted from Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securom

"Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled."

It's exactly why I am adamant a patch is released by Sega that completely removes Securom. It bugs me no end that as long as Securom stays on my system, some time later I may find I cannot run other games purchased legitimately.

Do a google and you find Securom is also reported to conflict with other software and applications (some anti-virus programs, Process Explorer, Nero, software emulation programs etc.) Please, Sega, I bought Kingdoms to enjoy it, not get punished for my loyalty and money with this headache.

Lots of people who play total war don't visit this forum, and your post made me think how clueless they'd be when some of their software suddenly no longer worked properly because of Securom malware they never even knew existed when they bought and installed Kindoms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

VIQ: CAN I install Kingdoms without internetconnection? Yes or No? Can someone answer this.

---

Yes you can.
This is not Bioshock.

OK, someone mentioned that this thread probably caused someone NOT to buy Kingdoms. I admit it, I'm that one. I understand the points made by the people who say it is no big deal, but I am also for people's right to privacy, and thus totally opposed to the idea of any malware being installed on my system. To those people who say it's no big deal, I say this "It's only a game...." If you are willing to give up any of your rights just to play a game I say good on ya. But I won't. Lotsa games out there. If all the companies start adding this to all their games, well, then I play console games. The idea that you cannot remove this securerom by uninstalling the game is absolutely unbelievable to me. Whoever made this decision certainly did NOT "stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night". C'mon Sega or CA or whoever, get your thumbs out your duffs and fix this! It's bad enough what Microsoft is doing to us, but guess what! I need my operating system, although Linux is looking better and better.....I don't need this game. Period.

I'll never forget my excitement when I first purchased Shogun. I thought "wow, finally a game that gets it..." I bought every game since, but now that's all over. Thanks for the memories, CA

later,
B-Dog

"Bioshock/SecuROM also accesses the internet and attempts to bypass firewall permissions at some point during its installation, and installs files in a hidden directory[4] that cannot easily be deleted [5]"

Sounds like a rootkit to me. I find it extremely humorous that it has correctly been identifie as a rootkit by the tool, and then they have to jump around and wave their hands and try to convince you that it's not a rootkit.

I guess that's easier than trying to explain why they think *they* should have the right to install hidden unremovable software on your system.

Yeah, i say "to hell" to this expansion. Well, to tell the true i didn't intend to buy it anyway. Why? Even though i liked the changes made to the 2handers, i completly disagree with the changes made with cavalry. I mean, these are medieval times, the golden times from cavalry. Even in the ancient times the importance of cavalry was showed by alexander (he who prooved how devastating is a frontal charge), by hannibal (and by scipio in the battle of zama, which he won essentially due to his better cavalry), and in the medieval times it got even more importance. Notice how genghis khan created the greatest empire the world had ever seen with an army with basicly 60% cavalry archers and 40% heavy lancers. Anyway, my point is, I think the cavalry power is very much balanced in MTW, and that Kingdoms make it weaker then it actually was.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ixidor
Well, to tell the true i didn't intend to buy it anyway. Why? Even though i liked the changes made to the 2handers, i completly disagree with the changes made with cavalry. I mean, these are medieval times, the golden times from cavalry. Even in the ancient times the importance of cavalry was showed by alexander (he who prooved how devastating is a frontal charge), by hannibal (and by scipio in the battle of zama, which he won essentially due to his better cavalry), and in the medieval times it got even more importance. Notice how genghis khan created the greatest empire the world had ever seen with an army with basicly 60% cavalry archers and 40% heavy lancers. Anyway, my point is, I think the cavalry power is very much balanced in MTW, and that Kingdoms make it weaker then it actually was.

---

Apologies for the OT post;

Many historians point out that armies in the medieval times were mostly composed out of infantry that are likely ignored in accounts. Things aren't as black and white as you present them IMO.

From a gameplay perspective the SP game in M2 can be won essentially with all cavalry armies that perform repeated frontal charges - tactics are degraded even to the most basic point of lacking the necessity of using flank attacks with horsemen; light cavalry is practically equally effective in frontal charges against infantry as heavy cavalry(!) Even if the historical accuracy argument would stand (although IMO it definitely doesn't) i'd surely prefer to play a game where tactical thought and maneuvers actually pay off, instead of head on rush charges.

Kingdoms contains gameplay/stat balancing that aims for a more satisfying experience without taking the flavor of the period. It is a pitty to depreciate the effort that actually seems to be the only from the part of CA in order to bring some balance in the very one-sided, gameplay of M2TW. I comment the community members and CA employes that worked to balance kingdoms for their choices and thank them for the effort, hard work and good ideas; if only the vanilla release was similarly treated!

Noir

I don't know if anyone realised this yet, but since securom apparently prevents any methods of backing-up the discs, is securom itself then in violation of this part of the liscensing agreement (re-printed verbatim from section d of the liscence conditions):

(d) make copies of the Game Software or any part thereof, except that you may make one (1) copy of the Game Software for backup or archival purposes, or make copies of the materials accompanying the Game Software;

for reference, I am no lawyer, nor do I pretend to be, but according to Title 17, Chapter 1, § 117 of the U.S. Copyright code, I am allowed to make (1) copy of any software program that I puschase a copy of for Archival Purposes only, provided that in the event that I no longer posess the origional copy of the program, that I then destroy the archival copy.

For those of you who want to follow this further, I referenced the website of Cornell University Law School (see this page for the specific section of the code:

HTML Code:

---

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sec_17_00000117----000-.html

---

Just wanted to point this out.

Also, please forgive my being long-winded, the following is my opinion on this issue:
To CA, I have been a loyal customer and fan on the Total War series for many years now, and for the record, I have legally purchased every Total War product I own. I have had absolutely no interest in ever trying to obtain a copy of any Total war product by less than legal means. I have done this because as a fan of the series, I have wanted the sereis to continue. However, since purchasing Kingdoms, and first gearing about the securom rootkit that was attached to the product and the issues that that program causes with other legitimite programs. It has caused me to seriously doubt whether I will continue to loyally purchase your products, or whether I call continue to call myself a fan any more.
I think that although protecting your product from the thieves and pirates of the world is perfectly admirable, if those "protections" intrude on and restrict my ability to enjoy your product and other software programs that I own, I have to wonder why as a customer, that I am being treated as such.

I know that just my voice alone might not have any effect, but if enough people voice thier minds and speak out against this type of restrictive programming, and if enough people from CA read this and realize the effects of what these types of "security" programs do to your customers and fans. Then possibly, we could prevent this sort of issue from occouring with the release of Empires. I hope that can still consider myself a loyal fan and customer when Empires is released as I seriously want to purchase that product when it is released.

I apoligize since it appears that my opinion was longer than my arguement.
But if you read through that entire post, Thank You.

While it is worth debating whether or not SecuRom and similar products are actually, technically legal, the fact is they will stand until someone knocks them down. Gamers aren't known for their willingness to pursue long and expensive lawsuits.

My position remains that SecuRom places an unecessary and unusual burden on the purchaser, and I personally won't be buying or recommending Kingdoms until there is, at the very least, a reliable method provided by the game's distributor for the removal of the program upon the uninstallation of the game.

I also want to say that I disapprove of piracy and will never steal a game, but if you want Kingdoms without SecuRom you can find it right now, you just can't do it honorably or legally.

:egypt:

Noir, i think you are taking my point to deeply. I know that the fact that cavalry is so powerful may take so of the strategy that most of the hard players like but still, even though sometimes medieval armies lacked cavalry, (which, let's face it, harder to get and mantain), let's face it, several 80 kg man riding 500 kg horses and coming at full speed holding a big spear against simple armored men holding quietly? Of course the damage will be devastating, even in frontal charges, unless the momentum is broken or something (like pikes) can stop them...

Just some thoughts,

After reading all this, I have several questions/thoughts and observations.

1. If SercRom is placing hidden applications on peoples systems, is this not electricity theft? Have you/we agreed to it's use of our resources? The EULA does not give it this right.

2. If the Above is true, then it maybe, that by acting as a trojan, or rootkit which by definition it is, (if it "phones home, then it is also a Trojan), then are they not also in breach of many countries Privacy Acts. No law gives them this right, not even with a defense of self protection.
As any information must have the individuals' "written" consent?

3. Any item purchased by a consumer, in many English Speaking countires, is simply an offer to treat, Case law, Boots Cash Chemist.
The point of ownership, is when the money changes hands, as consideration has been given and recieved, Therefore a contract has been concluded.
Case law, Byrne.

4. The EULA, is just that, an agreement. And in many countries, holds no legal obligation, nor legal standing. Except where it confines itself to legal precendent, and copyright law.

5. A product offered to consumers, must be of reasonable fitness for use.
I just tried it, it will not install on my system, yet I have one of the most upto date systems you can get. And, i have had no problems with any other of my games. I run Xp on my gaming machine, vista sucks.

6. Sega, Cannot contract out of any obligation of harm done to anyones system by their Products in the following countries: New Zealand, Australia, and i suspect the United Kingdom.
Law of Torts. Consumer Act, Consumer Gurantee Act, Fair trading Act.

7. Sega cannot Contract out of harm done by any third party to a customers system. Again law of Torts.
See 1932, the Ginger beer Case. I think it's called Morrelli. A third Part owes a Duty of Care.
And in Uk, NZ and I think now Australia, The Courts can lift the "Corporate Veil". Also see NZ 1993 Companies Act.
If they could? We would not have a "Law of Torts". Thats why it exists.

8. A EULA cannot contract out of Consumer law, Fair trading Act, Consumer Gurantee Act of the following countries. New Zealand, Australia, United Kingdom. There are more, but i am not familar with their laws.

9. Most EULA are worthless, or more than worthless. As many countries, either do not recognise them, or they aim to circumvent existing laws. In which by definition is illegal, and null and voids the EULA. Except where dealing with Copyright. Patent law is not wholely recognised as concerns software, But mircoshite is trying to change that by setting small self claimed precedents.

Thoughts.
All these companies know who hack the games, but can do nothing about it without opening themselves up to attack. Because they do not gain from these efforts.
Most gain by reputation, not monetarly.
We are told that we can not resell the game. They are resold EVERYWHERE.
Why? Because we own it. We treated with the price offered, we accepted, they accepted. Contract forefilled.
Any further contract, requires consideration.
Simply warning people not delete a file that say "as you may/can not play or install a game", may not be acceptable to the courts due to consideration being exchanged for a product that should be fit for it's purpose, which is to install and allow us to play our game. Not one to be spied on.
But has yet to be tested.
Reason being, There has to be a system in place to protect the consumer. And any object encroaching upon a consumers rights will be looked at in very poor terms. Espeically one used to identify an individual.
The Manual tells us to Put CD in here, and it will run as long as you have a legal copy of M2TW. It is not working, EULA is breached, EULA Breach Consumer law of atleast 3 countries, Fair trading Act Breached, Consumer Gurantee law Breached. :oops:
EULA = worthless, Null and void, except where dealing with copyright.


EULA
End User License "Agreement". I can't find the End User License "Contract", or the consideration needed to forefill this "contract".
EULA is not made known to the Purchaser at the point of Sale. So does not form part of the sale, or the contract at sale.

An agreement is not necessarily binding? A contract is in regards to consideration being given and recieved.

When was the Last time an End User individual was procescuted?


Anyway, like I said, my questions/thoughts and observations.


fenir

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

My position remains that SecuRom places an unecessary and unusual burden on the purchaser, and I personally won't be buying or recommending Kingdoms until there is, at the very least, a reliable method provided by the game's distributor for the removal of the program upon the uninstallation of the game.

---

That's the key point for me, too. The Bioshock game has come up in this thread as a parallel example. Well, I went ahead and bought that game, because 2K has said they'll release a tool for removing SecureRom after the game is uninstalled.

If CA/Sega said they'd do the same for Kingdoms, then I'd buy the expansion. But so far, unless I've missed something, all we're getting is silence from CA and Sega on this issue. So they don't get my money for the expansion. That's the only way we have, as consumers, to make our voices heard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fenir

Just some thoughts,

1. If SercRom is placing hidden applications on peoples systems, is this not electricity theft? Have you/we agreed to it's use of our resources? The EULA does not give it this right.

2. If the Above is true, then it maybe, that by acting as a trojan, or rootkit which by definition it is, (if it "phones home, then it is also a Trojan), then are they not also in breach of many countries Privacy Acts. No law gives them this right, not even with a defense of self protection.
As any information must have the individuals' "written" consent?

---

I don't have Kingdoms but I am sure that SEGA are not that silly as to not include it in the License/EULA. Are they?? Has anyone read it and is there any mention of it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fenir

4. The EULA, is just that, an agreement. And in many countries, holds no legal obligation, nor legal standing. Except where it confines itself to legal precendent, and copyright law.

---

No! This is simply wrong. It is a license agreement and can constitute a legally binding contract.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fenir

6. Sega, Cannot contract out of any obligation of harm done to anyones system by their Products in the following countries: New Zealand, Australia, and i suspect the United Kingdom.
Law of Torts. Consumer Act, Consumer Gurantee Act, Fair trading Act.

7. Sega cannot Contract out of harm done by any third party to a customers system. Again law of Torts.
See 1932, the Ginger beer Case. I think it's called Morrelli. A third Part owes a Duty of Care.
And in Uk, NZ and I think now Australia, The Courts can lift the "Corporate Veil". Also see NZ 1993 Companies Act.
If they could? We would not have a "Law of Torts". Thats why it exists.

---

What????
The law of Torts is concerned with compensation for personal injury and damage to property. Securom is not going to jump out and hit you nor is it likely to damage your system anymore than other software. Just how many systems has windows damaged yet I don't see a line queueing up to sue them lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fenir

8. A EULA cannot contract out of Consumer law, Fair trading Act, Consumer Gurantee Act of the following countries. New Zealand, Australia, United Kingdom. There are more, but i am not familar with their laws.

---

My mistake. Most contracts can't although it doesn't seem to stop them trying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fenir

9. Most EULA are worthless, or more than worthless. As many countries, either do not recognise them, or they aim to circumvent existing laws. In which by definition is illegal, and null and voids the EULA. Except where dealing with Copyright. Patent law is not wholely recognised as concerns software, But mircoshite is trying to change that by setting small self claimed precedents.

---

See above.

EDIT
Can anyone tell me if this crapware has been bundled with patch 1.3? No way I'm installing this patch until I get the all clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ixidor

blah blah blah cavalry blah blah

---

I know i'm not a mod, but this thread is about securom issues, not the balance of cavalry units. We've been very careful not to get the thread locked so far, so please dont derail it in other directions.

Back on topic - there's an interesting page here, where somebody proposes a rating system for DRM software etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ulstan

"Bioshock/SecuROM also accesses the internet and attempts to bypass firewall permissions at some point during its installation, and installs files in a hidden directory[4] that cannot easily be deleted [5]"

Sounds like a rootkit to me. I find it extremely humorous that it has correctly been identifie as a rootkit by the tool, and then they have to jump around and wave their hands and try to convince you that it's not a rootkit.

I guess that's easier than trying to explain why they think *they* should have the right to install hidden unremovable software on your system.

---

Rootkits, by definition, are pieces of software which attempt to subvert the usual running of an operating system in order to silently run malicious code. Under this definition, the SecuRom installation is not in fact a rootkit, as its existence is well known and easily verifiable. Issues with removal should not cause people to jump up and down screaming 'rootkit' - it may be bad, for some, but it's not necessarily that.

Quote:

---

After reading all this, I have several questions/thoughts and observations.

1. If SercRom is placing hidden applications on peoples systems, is this not electricity theft? Have you/we agreed to it's use of our resources? The EULA does not give it this right.

---

By this justification you could sue every software manufacturer who did not include a specific clause to use your electricity - that is, every single one of them...

Quote:

---

2. If the Above is true, then it maybe, that by acting as a trojan, or rootkit which by definition it is, (if it "phones home, then it is also a Trojan), then are they not also in breach of many countries Privacy Acts. No law gives them this right, not even with a defense of self protection.
As any information must have the individuals' "written" consent?

---

As long as no personal information is transmitted, I doubt it'll have any legal problems at all.

Quote:

---

4. The EULA, is just that, an agreement. And in many countries, holds no legal obligation, nor legal standing. Except where it confines itself to legal precendent, and copyright law.

---

An EULA remains as the only legal basis for any case of this matter until it itself is challenged and a legal ruling given; if you feel it will not hold up in court, it is your right to test that ~;)

Quote:

---

5. A product offered to consumers, must be of reasonable fitness for use.
I just tried it, it will not install on my system, yet I have one of the most upto date systems you can get. And, i have had no problems with any other of my games. I run Xp on my gaming machine, vista sucks.

---

Not a SecuRom issue.

Quote:

---

8. A EULA cannot contract out of Consumer law, Fair trading Act, Consumer Gurantee Act of the following countries. New Zealand, Australia, United Kingdom. There are more, but i am not familar with their laws.

---

Please feel free to give a specific example wherein the SecuRom software breaches that law?

Quote:

---

9. Most EULA are worthless, or more than worthless. As many countries, either do not recognise them, or they aim to circumvent existing laws. In which by definition is illegal, and null and voids the EULA. Except where dealing with Copyright. Patent law is not wholely recognised as concerns software, But mircoshite is trying to change that by setting small self claimed precedents.

---

As I said, it remains until challenged ~:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zenicetus

That's the key point for me, too. The Bioshock game has come up in this thread as a parallel example. Well, I went ahead and bought that game, because 2K has said they'll release a tool for removing SecureRom after the game is uninstalled.

---

Can't we use that tool for Kingdoms ??
Or is it Bioshock only ??

Oh come on... There's no way to change the copy protection mechanism with a patch because the disc just won't have the right format.
1.3 is still SafeDisc protected and for those who want to be sure, I used ProtectionID to confirm it:

Code:

---

Scanning -> F:\Program Files\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\medieval2.exe
File Type : Exe, Size : 21165576 (0142F608h) Bytes
-> File has 1353224 (014A608h) bytes of appended data starting at offset 012E5000h
[!] Safedisc 4.60.000 detected !
[!] protection level: Standard
[!] Possible CD/DVD-Key or Serial Check -> CDKey
- Scan Took : 2.531 Seconds

---

How to get rid of SecuRom?
Write to support@securom and you get following answer:

Greetings.

Thank you for your email. Please be informed that these files in your UserData folder are used to store licence information for SecuROM protected applications. They were created at the first execution of the protected program. Any manipulation in this folder may cause the SecuROM application to work different than expected. These files are not executables themselves and therefore can't affect your system in any way. Nevertheless if you want to delete the folder please follow the instructions below:

1) Open the command line by pressing "Start" and selecting the "Run..." option.

2) Type "cmd" (without "s) and push the [Enter] button on the keyboard.

3) Please type in the following command: rd /s "%APPDATA%\SecuROM" and press [Enter] on the keyboard.

4) Answer Y to the Y/N question and press [Enter] to complete the process.

Please be informed that the User Access Service is used to launch a SecuROM protected in a non administrator mode, and has nothing to do with spyware or any kind of software like that. If you want to uninstall it please follow the instructions below. Please understand that any application you launch that uses User Access Service will restart it.

1. Open a command line window (Start > Run, type "cmd", click OK).

2. Go to the System32 folder in your main Windows folder (e.g. type "cd C:\winnt\system32", then press enter).

3. Remove User Access Service (Type "UAService7.exe - remove", then press enter).

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

The folder should now be deleted. Please understand that any SecuROM application that uses UserData will rebuild these files and folders with future launches.

Best regards,

SecuROM Support Team
SecuROM on the web: http://www.securom.com
or via e-mail: support@securom.com


To delete files that Windows won`t delete see here:
http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/

I have (purchased) copies of all other TW titles and was looking forward to this one, but won't be buying it.

I have no problem with copy protection per se, but on principle, I won't intall software that behaves like this. It makes a game with it an automatic no buy for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

No! This is simply wrong. It is a license agreement and constitutes a legally binding contract.

---

Well that might be true in Australia, but under English Law that simply is not the case.

The contract is agreed and finalised at the counter in the shop where you bought the game. English law states that neither party may then vary the terms of a contract after consideration has been exchanged. Therefore, by implication the EULA which pops -up and asks for your acceptance prior to installation is just noise and is not legally binding on either party.

In fact, if you think about this logically allowing a vendor to vary the terms of their contract with you after you have paid for the product would open a whole raft of potential commercial problems. Therefore, the law is very careful not to allow it to happen.

As I explained before, for the license agreement to be legally binding it would have to be presented, read and agreed to prior to the customer paying for the game.

That is obviously possible if the software is being downloaded off the internet, but for most shop purchases it simply doesn't work like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

What????
The law of Torts is concerned with compensation for personal injury and damage to property. Securom is not going to jump out and hit you nor is it likely to damage your system anymore than other software. Just how many systems has windows damaged yet I don't see a line queueing up to sue them lol...

---

A similar issue came up during the Blizzcon debate and I actually got a ruling on it from the Office of Fair Trading. Their view was that if it can be shown that the supplier has incurred a customer in any unecessary expense or inconvience as a result of their actions, or failure to act promptly and appropriately, then the customer is entitled to claim reasonable compensation and damages for any consequences that arise.

The specific issue here being that HMV were not only liable for the £50 cost game that I purchased from them but all my wasted time and effort in attending the launch and the loss of potential value arising from the fact that the product they sold me was known to be faulty at the time they sold it. It worked out in my case to be just under £200 per copy sold.

I can't see why this would be any different for a company like Play.com who have just sold me a game with a potentially damaging piece of hidden software secreted on the disk. So, I would say that if you can prove any damage or inconvenience has been caused by being conned into loading SecuRom onto your PC then you do indeed have a potential case for damages against the company that sold you the game.

sorry... i`m not going to buy Kingdoms, i just dont want that type of program installed on my computer. :thumbsdown:

Right, I've just spoken to Consumer Direct and they have referred this issue to the UK Office of Fair Trading for a ruling. So, hopefully we will get some sort of official response applicable to the UK in the next couple of days.

If anyone else wants to do likewise the number is 08454 04 05 06 and their website is http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/.

Obviously, as with the Blizzcon case the more consumers who ring them the more likely they are to take action.

I have also spoken to Play.Com's cunstomer service line and informed them of the situation. They immediately offerred me a full unconditional refund and assured me that they had no idea that the software they supplied included any additional components. I informed them that the matter had been reported to the UK Office of Fair Trading and that I was awaiting an official ruling. I suspect that might have started a small ripple at Play.com which might filter back to SEGA.

Does this Programme try to access your Internet Connection for Spying purposes?

@AirFix - Thanks! DO you know if that will also remove the registry entires that SecuROM leaves behind?