Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
That is why firearms are so important for self defense - they don't rely at all on a person's strength.
"Strenght" as in the conceptual and abstract sense, not mighty thews. Guns are certainly useful enough that they make even a weakling strong, but that's somewhat besides the point since his opponents can make use of them equally.
Or put this way, a street gang can put more guns to play than you I would imagine.
Quote:
Most people here would do that as well, I think. But the fact is since we're such a big country, there's more crazies. As to why there seems to be more per capita in the US, I think it might have to do with the media treatment of school shooters. Desperate psychopaths seem to have a desire to be remembered, at least partially, and want to do something that gets them noticed, perhaps thinking they had been ignored before. Like they are going to show everybody who disrespected them.
Where does the media come into play? In the post killing sensationalizing of the killer. School shootings almost always make national news. The killers are famous. Everyone in the country knows who they are. Look at the Virginia Tech shooter this spring - some group actually performed his terrible plays after he died. In a flash, they're just as famous as the leaders of the free world. How can that not be attractive to the insane mind?
That actually sort of sounds like the vague idea of "malign narcissism" I've been trying to describe. A sort of need to "get back" at the bad world by somehow becoming noticed and important, if only briefly and posthumously.
Which drive they seem to lack around here for example.
As for per capita, come on now. You have proportional violent crime rates at least as bad as any other "Western" country, easily the most prisoners per capita in the world, by all estimates the easy majority of the world's criteria-meeting serial killers... and the EU put together has more people than you.
If that doesn't speak of a structural problem I don't know what does.
Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
If that doesn't speak of a structural problem I don't know what does.
Well yeah. Your referenced structural "problem" is when the original assumption is misunderstood, or misused. Done right, the 'rugged individualist' (a popular mythological descendent of the 'noble savage' and 'the guy who knows Indians') defies the odds, the status quo, and the chauvenistas, to succeed, peacefully.
Done wrong, the 'loner gunman' flashes 'teh finger' to the odds, the staus quo and the symbols of his oppression, futilely wasting other lives as he makes his 15-minutes-of-fame mark.
In the american system, to allow for A, the success story, we must also prepare for B, the nutcase who got it wrong. Same mythos, different guys, different outcomes, same system. Quite a gamble, actually.
Hence, the seemingly ( to euro eyes) neurotic fascination with firearms, and the desire to own, use and praise them.
Full disclosure: I own a few firearms.
Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
As for per capita, come on now. You have proportional violent crime rates at least as bad as any other "Western" country, easily the most prisoners per capita in the world, by all estimates the easy majority of the world's criteria-meeting serial killers... and the EU put together has more people than you.
If that doesn't speak of a structural problem I don't know what does.
I don't think CR was disagreeing with this. He seemed to me to be hypothesizing the structural problem as media sensationalization of the killer. Those who would otherwise go quietly into the night see an opportunity to make an impression, hence more per capita rampages by the crazies.
Ajax
Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
"Strenght" as in the conceptual and abstract sense, not mighty thews. Guns are certainly useful enough that they make even a weakling strong, but that's somewhat besides the point since his opponents can make use of them equally.
No, because they level the playing field, so to speak. And defending your house gives you an advantage.
Quote:
Or put this way, a street gang can put more guns to play than you I would imagine.
I don't hear of many gangs attacking homes, but that's why you have high capacity rifles.
CR
Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"
Quote:
but that's why you have high capacity rifles.
I really have to say that while confronting a single attacker might be possible, I doubt that
1. A gang would attack my house
2. If someone did attack my house, I would pull out my Galil or AK-47 and let loose.
3. They would attack the only house with an AK-47
I think that assault rifles are a little bit much.
Re: "Just a Piece of Paper"
Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Well yeah. Your referenced structural "problem" is when the original assumption is misunderstood, or misused. Done right, the 'rugged individualist' (a popular mythological descendent of the 'noble savage' and 'the guy who knows Indians') defies the odds, the status quo, and the chauvenistas, to succeed, peacefully.
Done wrong, the 'loner gunman' flashes 'teh finger' to the odds, the staus quo and the symbols of his oppression, futilely wasting other lives as he makes his 15-minutes-of-fame mark.
In the american system, to allow for A, the success story, we must also prepare for B, the nutcase who got it wrong. Same mythos, different guys, different outcomes, same system. Quite a gamble, actually.
Hence, the seemingly ( to euro eyes) neurotic fascination with firearms, and the desire to own, use and praise them.
Yeah, well, the "success story" bit is perfectly doable without the "flipping out and going amok with a gun or turning into a serial killer" bit too... so that doesn't change the bit about there being some deep-running issue at works in the "system" I'd say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxfetish
I don't think CR was disagreeing with this. He seemed to me to be hypothesizing the structural problem as media sensationalization of the killer. Those who would otherwise go quietly into the night see an opportunity to make an impression, hence more per capita rampages by the crazies.
That doesn't really do much to address the pathological need for attention of such nuts though. Plus I'm pretty sure there were enough serial killers in the US before the issue got "media sexy".
And moreover, where did the first gun rampages then get started ? Cannot have been pre-existent media sensationalization...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
No, because they level the playing field, so to speak. And defending your house gives you an advantage.
But ultimately the matter then boils down to something like who can draw bead on the other guy first. Doesn't quite sound like the odds I'd bet my continued well-being on.
As I kepp saying, all that amounts to is containing the symptoms to some extent. It doesn't actually matter a thing in the larger scale, and I'm not quite convinced an armed and (even if justifiably) edgy citizenry can be regarded as an exactly healthy state of affairs. Tends to cause some unpleasant side issues I understand, the least of which certainly isn't the vast numbers of personal firearms on the market.
Quote:
I don't hear of many gangs attacking homes, but that's why you have high capacity rifles.
Around here fighting wars is left to the army though.
