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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by kamikhaan
A terrible comback, CR. First of all, I am NOT apologizing for the actions of terrorists and oppressors. It is YOU who are just being a tool for blatant racism and bigotry. I am pointing out how the west were the ones who aggravated the situation in the first place, by agreeing on Balfour behind the backs of Arabs. Tell me, CR, who was the scapegoat muslims were looking for between 1921 and 1947? Nobody. It wasn't until the UN basically plopped down a Jewish government into the area, overruling the few Arabic nations within the UN, who in the past had sacraficed millions of lives to help the west against the Ottomans, that there was major conflict between the Jews and Muslims in the area. And since going to war with the UN wasn't really an option, they took the alternative, only to find out that the west was giving Isreal advanced weaponry and other technology to make it nigh impossible to defeat them.
There's that YOU thing again, a personal finger-pointing exercise in what might have been a (eventually) productive thread.
Good points raised by all. But the next "you" gets a closer, as being counter-productive, and we'll try again, for the 50 thousandeth time, to engage each other civilly.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
:shame: Apologies, Kukri, I rather let myself get a little heated when putting up that post. I shall attempt in the future to try avoiding "you", regardless of whether my opponents do or not.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
No worries kamikhaan, this place is designed to release heat.
My apologies that I used you (and your post) to demonstrate :bow:
Back on-topic: Do Jerusalem Day demonstrations signify hatred of US/Israel? Or something else?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
I think like this forum they are designed to release heat... probably away from their very oppressive governments that they should be focusing on.
Scapegoats are a wonderful thing... ever wonder that governments that send in riot police against lawyers allow massive marches against external groups...
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Beirut
I can go on and on and on. The point is, we are all exactly the same bunch of you-know-whats. And it is unfair in the extreme to pick and chose amongst the evils of the world and say they are worse than us when, perhaps, we are so unlikely to ever look in the mirror and see the evil in ourselves.
Is moral relativism really the best you can come up with?
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts.
That is a very good point , a very very good point .
Well done Panzer . So now if some radical muslim put up on a forum something like a Prussian Blue concert or footage from Louis Theroux meets the Nazis and portrayed it as most Americans viewpoint would it not be the same as this topic , would people on that forum who agreed that it was really bad so most Americans must be really bad be wrtiting in the same vein as some here ?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
Have you even heard of what happened in good ol' white Aryan europe before 1945...?
"Oh well, we haven't done anything like that for, oh 60 years, therefore we are morally untouchable."[/irony]
And you're a fascist, right? Do tell me, how are jews and muslims generally portrayed in fascist forums...?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Is moral relativism really the best you can come up with?
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or Muslims. That’s a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
I think you are right in the fact that children should not be indoctrinated one way or the other.
As for moral relativism...well I think for one to be relative and therefore in essence non-biased is a good thing. Until someone can stand back and see something objectively, one's own bias will skew their opinion.
The question here is really: Why do the parents of those children feel the need to teach their children to hate Israel/USA?
Could it be the Iranians feel surrounded and oppressed? Well lets be fair, you have a big USA military presence Directly in Iraq-west, Afghanistan-East, Kuwait and the Gulf-South, Former Bloc States-North, and with all the threats being thrown around, one must think that war is coming sooner or later?
Could it be the Iranians feel subjugated? Well lets be fair, all the sanctions being thrown at them (mainly from the US) for trying to go nuclear must be pretty annoying. What do they tell their children when they have to eat the same foods day in day out all the time? Why did the US arm Israel with nukes, yet they won't allow them to go nuclear? If the US doesn't want them to go nuclear why don't they help them out with alternate energy sources instead of dictating to them what they can or cannot do? How about spreading some of that oil the US seems so fond of around?
Could it be the Pakistani's feel betrayed? well lets be fair here, the US shows consistent support for what the Pakistani's perceive to be an illegitimate government, who were not voted for by them as a people but who took power for themselves.
Could it be the Pakistani's feel used like some kind of Whore? Well lets be fair here, the Pakistani's must be asking themselves why the US keeps supporting Musharraf, whilst on the other hand they shout and scream "evil" at those who have or still do things that Musharraf did. So why is there this inconsistency?...oh wait...it's because it's in the US' own interest to have him where he is for now, just like it was when Saddam was in charge of Iraq in the 80's.
As for the rest of the Muslims that take a dislike to the US or Israel and why they teach their children to dislike them, well it goes a little something like this....
Remember 9/11? Remember the sympathy that the rest of the west or 'developed' countries poured out on the US for their loss?
Why was it that the west did that? It's because of the similarities that the US has to the rest of the west's ideologies etc etc
So in the same way, when Muslims see what they perceive to be atrocities and injustices handed out like they were nothing, to people that they share many values with and share a common bond with, do you think it is wrong that they should also show their support and sympathies for those that they perceive to have been wronged?
Now we can all go on debating this forever, but when you see the arguments above, you must agree that the ball is in the US' court to try and change this. After all they are the one's with unlimited resources, they are the one's with all the power. It is time they started using that power and wealth abit more sensibly instead of just blowing things up, like a kid taking a temper tantrum.
mega
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
I don't find that hard to accept at all. May I ask what gave you the idea that I did?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Tell me how many American children are taught to hate Jews... or muslims. Thats a far more pertinent question than casualty counts. :yes:
Are you implying that one culture has more of a reason to hate another because of what their children are taught than because of how many are killed?
Is it worse to tell Little Johnny that Fred is a godless heathen than it is for Fred to drop a bomb on Little Johnny's house and kill his whole family? If I have this wrong, please correct me.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
Children are always indoctrinated one way or another. :inquisitive:
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
I found this to be an interesting speech, worth a read. I particularly like his point that the only way to give the muslim world a satisfactory place in the world of today is for muslims to oppose the extremist elements which seem to get most of the press. I think that's only being made a into more difficult process by attacking muslim sovereign states and supporting repressive regimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
Why is it so hard to simply accept that spreading hate, especially amongst children, is a bad thing - regardless of culture?
Why is so hard to simply accept that spreading hate is not the defining feature of the majority of muslims or their culture?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Why is so hard to simply accept that spreading hate is not the defining feature of the majority of muslims or their culture?
Why is it so hard to accept that it are exactly those muslims you are helping by taking a stand? This is happening and it is happening right now.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Fragony
Why is it so hard to accept that it are exactly those muslims you are helping by taking a stand? This is happening and it is happening right now.
What then do you propose to eradicate the problem? It is all well throwing accusations around, but it is not really objective now, is it? So comeon... what is your answer to the extremist problem?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Beirut
Thank you for addressing the question. :bow:
You're saying the civilian casualties inflicted by the US and Israel in Iraq, Lebanon, and the Occupied Territories (for example) combined are of a lesser number than the casualties inflicted by Muslims against US and Israeli civilians?
Personally, I would think the opposite, by a wide margin. Palestinian civilian casualties have always far outweighed Israeli civilian casualties, and the numbers of Iraqis killed in the two wars is certainly in the tens of thousands at least. Some have said hundreds of thousands. US deaths in Iraq (an incredible and criminal waste of life I might add) are roughly four thousand. Tragic to be sure, but far, far less than what the Iraqis have suffered. In Lebanon, the slaughter of civilians at the hands of the Israelis was certainly in the thousands again.
I would think the number of Muslim civilians killed by the US and Israel far outweighs the numbers of civilian US and Israelis killed by Muslims. When the Muslim communities around the world see this, and see it year after year, would you not think that anger would be the result?
I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, I'm just saying it shouldn't surprise anyone that this level of anger exists. When someone posts "Oh my! They hate us? But why?", I admit to having a bit of a chuckle at the innocence some people still exhibit.
How?, why? would proffesional armies continuosly kill civs? maybe a few innocent lives here and there, but it cannot reach the amount of civs killed purposely by terrorists/insurgents/palistinians....these three peoples combined outweigh anything the US or Israel did, and I do admit US and Israel (mostly US methinks) had their fair share of civ casualties, but from north africa to indonesia these guys (generaly terrorists) wreak havoc on civs deemed "infidels".
(oh and "fidel" is latin for faithful, and in makes it "UNfaithful or "faithless", I thought about that word and just wanted to point that out.)~D
:feedback:
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by K COSSACK
How?, why? would proffesional armies continuosly kill civs? maybe a few innocent lives here and there, but it cannot reach the amount of civs killed purposely by terrorists/insurgents/palistinians....these three peoples combined outweigh anything the US or Israel did, and I do admit US and Israel (mostly US methinks) had their fair share of civ casualties, but from north africa to indonesia these guys (generaly terrorists) wreak havoc on civs deemed "infidels".
(oh and "fidel" is latin for faithful, and in makes it "UNfaithful or "faithless", I thought about that word and just wanted to point that out.)~D
:feedback:
Just wondering Cossack, are you tying those people who are demonstrating with militant insurgents?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
Palestinians have very good, rational reasons for their hate. Like that they were kicked out of their homes that they own and hold the legal deeds to by Israel. Anyone who had that happen to them would hate Israel just as much as the Palestinians and their Muslim brothers do.
I don't like how Palestinians always get demonized just because they are Muslim, whilst Israel gets a free pass for no legitimate reason for it's shady part in the situation.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
Note that civs are a very large target, and terrorist dont discriminate. From coffee shops to twin towers anybody who's part of a nation/religion that is viewed evil by Muslim radicals will be a target.
Remember those Korean guys who'd like to spread christianity in taliban land??!?! (but yeah DUMB idea)
how 'bout that 50 gazzilianth suicide bomber in iraq that killed the civs of the opposite religion, or infidels.
dont forget about hezbollah who like chanting "death to Israel" and taking pics of kids ready to die for allah.
I'm not saying its the end of the world, but it seems you guys are saying these guys are w(p)ussies.
:feedback:
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
Was that an answer to my question Cossack?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
Not discriminating is of course part of what makes terrorism, if you got a pocket-deathstar you can afford not to. Doesn't make it any less sick of course, especially considering what they are trying to achieve with it.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Megalos
Just wondering Cossack, are you tying those people who are demonstrating with militant insurgents?
I said "generaly". And no I'm not.
but you know that terrorists like hezbollah do like to take photos, right? and demonstrate like other demostrating civs do. makes it hard to discern dissadent and foe, also being easy for the dissadent to become the latter (foe)
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
Exactly right Cossack. So let's rephrase your earlier question/statements to:
How many Muslim civs have been killed by American/Israeli sovreign forces?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli forces?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli sovreign forces?
Hope the point is made.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Megalos
Exactly right Cossack. So let's rephrase your earlier question/statements to:
How many Muslim civs have been killed by American/Israeli sovreign forces?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli forces?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli sovreign forces?
Hope the point is made.
hand me a calculator, and lemme guess you're saying American/Israeli forces killed more?
not as much as they have killed themselves and us. get it?
we really need some charts and graphs or this thread aint goin nowhere but opinion.
('xcept mine, its bassed off of common sense!~D )
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Megalos
Exactly right Cossack. So let's rephrase your earlier question/statements to:
How many Muslim civs have been killed by American/Israeli sovreign forces?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim civs have killed American/Israeli forces?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli civs?
How many Muslim sovreign forces have killed American/Israeli sovreign forces?
Hope the point is made.
That is one way of not having to answer this; how many non-muslim citizins got killed by muslim citizins (and 'bad' muslims, they really get the shaft), the only sovereign in their view is the islam after all, should have liberal thinkers slipping of their chairs. Only a complete idiot will deny the existance of such a thing as the political islam,which is a movement that is becomming more influencial, in the muslim world and here.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by K COSSACK
hand me a calculator, and lemme guess you're saying American/Israeli forces killed more?
not as much as they have killed themselves and us. get it?
we really need some charts and graphs or this thread aint goin nowhere but opinion.
('xcept mine, its bassed off of common sense!~D )
Granted alot of the deaths in particular Iraq are from paramiltary action, but would that paramilitary action been there if the US hadn't gone oil drilling?
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/proje...-casualty.html
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3962969.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4830782.stm
http://icasualties.org/oif
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/ira...es/casualties/
Glad you decided to use your "common sense"
Mega out
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
So basically the amount of people killed decides who is more evil and who is less evil now?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Fragony
That is one way of not having to answer this; how many non-muslim citizins got killed by muslim citizins (and 'bad' muslims, they really get the shaft), the only sovereign in their view is the islam after all, should have liberal thinkers slipping of their chairs. Only a complete idiot will deny the existance of such a thing as the political islam,which is a movement that is becomming more influencial, in the muslim world and here.
Not really pertinent. Afterall GOD is the only true sovriegn in the eyes of Christians too (I am a Christian).
I'm still awaitng the answer to the problem of extremists too Fragony.
How can the US/Israel stop young Muslims becoming radicalised against them?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Husar
So basically the amount of people killed decides who is more evil and who is less evil now?
I don't think so Husar, but I do think that the ammount of innocents killed is at the nub of this topic, as to why there are all the demonstrations against the US/Israel.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Megalos
I'm still awaitng the answer to the problem of extremists too Fragony.
How can the US/Israel stop young Muslims becoming radicalised against them?
They can't, that is just the way of things. You were doing so fine when you mentioned that the attack of 9/11 got so much response from the western world because of our shared identity, why shouldn't that work both ways.
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Fragony
They can't, that is just the way of things. You were doing so fine when you mentioned that the attack of 9/11 got so much response from the western world because of our shared identity, why shouldn't that work both ways.
Does it not?
And why can't the US/Israel do anything about it? They just can't because that's the way of things? You have to be kidding right?
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Re: Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans
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Originally Posted by Megalos
Does it not?
And why can't the US/Israel do anything about it? They just can't because that's the way of things? You have to be kidding right?
Quite simply because the USA is currently the biggest thing and Israel the closest thing at hand, and consequently palestina, don't you feel that those that so very very much care are a bit lacking in actually doing something like feeding them?