It's because they're cowards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's normal and healthy to feel fear. It's how you react to it which makes you brave or a coward. That's why I can't stand the political Left.
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It's because they're cowards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It's normal and healthy to feel fear. It's how you react to it which makes you brave or a coward. That's why I can't stand the political Left.
They are xenophobes, that's the funiest part. Indeed they go to such lenghts because they are afraid of muslims no less then that. All that blabla is 90% fear, 10% opium for the elite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Wow Fragony made a post in a topic about Islam that doesn't contain nonsense , thats progress .:2thumbsup:Quote:
..........
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
It's because they're cowards.
It's normal and healthy to feel fear. It's how you react to it which makes you brave or a coward. That's why I can't stand the political Left.
Grayson Perry is the political left :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
BTW you quoted this ....edit: Lefties never cease to amaze me. There liberal thinkers in the islamic world who question the humanity of the sharia law, one would expect they would have in ally in the european left, but sadly the european left is so enlightened they never miss a oppertunity to defend an ultra-conservative movement, I find that ironic.
Any guesses as to why that statement is of the nonsensical variety ?
That coming from a xenophobe who has a fear that muslims are taking over his world and whose blabla about Islam consists of 90% bull excrement .Quote:
They are xenophobes, that's the funiest part. Indeed they go to such lenghts because they are afraid of muslims no less then that. All that blabla is 90% fear, 10% opium for the elite.
Fundi's :dizzy2:
Odd that I am on better terms with the muslim orgers then with you, but ah well.
Is that a variation of the old "I am not a racist I have a black friend" line ?Quote:
Odd that I am on better terms with the muslim orgers then with you, but ah well.
Nah, got black friends because I have white lines.
You think what you want, and yes, I do have black friends
The "I have black friends" line is a trap and cliché.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I don't care about the people that care. If someone wants to call me a racist fine, their problem when the word becomes meaningless. I don't have it in me to hate someone or something, but lefties need an enemy to justify their existance, in a world that is pretty much settled no less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
If we can step aside from the partisan test of who can urinate farther and longer, there's a new bit of sharia news coming out. 40 lashes for a teddy bear!
Oh please not in Nigeria, they have a savanne there
:laugh4: It's a teddy bear and a name... :laugh4: :dizzy2:
or imprisonment or a fine if she is found guilty .Quote:
40 lashes for a teddy bear!
Now tell me Lemur taking into account which crazy dictators made those laws , the circumstances of them siezing power and considering the practices of those forces under the dictators , don't you find it strange that there are options in sentencing ?
I would have expected them to go more for the instant flogging of the woman without trial and the public beheading of the offending bear .
Yes they do Frag , at least you learnt something , perhaps one day you will learn that they do not have the crime you say they have , neither do they have a law system that you claim they have...neither do any of the other countries that you claimed did .Quote:
Oh please not in Nigeria, they have a savanne there
Couldn't it be extended that to call a person Muhammad is to make an image of the Prophet and hence be an offense? So what is the clause that makes it okay to name a person after the Prophet?Quote:
The bear itself was not marked or labelled with the name in any way, he added.
It is seen as an insult to Islam to attempt to make an image of the Prophet Muhammad.
Tribesy, are you actually defending the ******* who rule Sudan? Remember that these ******** have killed and raped hundreds of thousands of people just because they were black. As for the Teddy bear, what messed up culture imprisons people for what they name a **** teddy bear. Besides, the kids were the ones who voted for the **** name in the first place. How about they give the kids the option of imprisonement or 40 lashes.
Am I indeed ?Quote:
Tribesy, are you actually defending the ******* who rule Sudan?
Now that isn't actually true is it , putting such a simplistic but inaccurate take on things really does a diservice to the victims and the persecution they suffer .Quote:
Remember that these ******** have killed and raped hundreds of thousands of people just because they were black.
Well that might be something to do with the age limits which of course can be a bit sticky , but how about a different option ...how about giving the punishment to the parents who complained , clearly they saw a teddy with a name and associated that teddy as a depiction of their prophet , surely they must be guilty of some form of blasphemy .Quote:
How about they give the kids the option of imprisonement or 40 lashes
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: that actually makes a little sense. I can live with that compromise:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
About sums up the teddy bear incident... ~DQuote:
Matthias: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Jehovah". [Everyone gasps]
Jewish Official: You're only making it worse for yourself!
Matthias: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!
Jewish Official: I'm warning you! If you say "Jehovah" one more time (gets hit with rock) RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?
Stoners: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!
Jewish Official: Was it you?
Stoner: Yes.
Jewish Official: Right...
Stoner: Well you did say "Jehovah. " [Crowd throws rocks at the stoner]
Jewish Official: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I blow this whistle. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Jehovah. " [Crowd stones the Jewish Official to death]
An update, the victim's story:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...3899920&page=1
To call that ****hole of a culture 'barbaric' is an insult to barbarians*. They're worse than ******* animals.
CR
*Some may say that not every aspect of a culture is this horrible. I'd say that if you mix dog**** and ice cream, the final product tastes like dog****.
Anybody who does not think we need to get off the oil habit should read that article. We are funding these people. So long as they're getting free money from the West, they have no reason to change. I'd say more, but I'm at a loss for PG language.
Talk about a loaded system:
Right so it is illegal to represent someone if it embarrasses the institution...Quote:
Lawyer Punished Too
Along with the young woman's sentence, the General Court of Qatif confiscated the license of her attorney, Abdul Rahman Al-Lahem, a lawyer known for taking on controversial cases that push back against Saudi Arabia's strictly interpreted system of sharia, or Islamic law.
"Asking me to appear in front of a disciplinary committee at the Ministry of Justice … is a punishment for taking human rights cases against some institutions," Al-Lahem told Arab News.
Why didn't Big W choose Saudi Arabia where virtually all the 9/11 terrorists come from over Iraq where none of them came from and Saddam was on the terrorists hit list. :dizzy2:
Wasn't one of the main reasons to invade Afghanistan touted by Ms Bush to free the oppressed women?
All I can say it might be the law, but that does not ethical it make.
Oh come on if you want to update the victims story then update it .Quote:
An update, the victim's story:
The lovely authorities in Saudi have managed to get her to confess to adultery now .
In most countries a confession would of course be tested and other evidence considered . In Saudi it only has to be accepted by a judge .
Needless to say the if judge does accept the confession the sentance is ever so slightly harsher than the flogging , what with the sentance being ever so slightly fatal .
Don't ya just love the wahabbi version of Sharia practiced in the wests special friend kingdom of Saudi Arabia .
Hmm, I sense a hunger for irony by those that do not realize their victims will never realize it...
Look, Tribesman has a point you've all been intentionally missing... on the off chance you haven't, please allow me to spell it out for you....
Does anyone else find it ironic that our 2nd best friend in the middle east is the haven for all these 'muslims are such goonies' stories. Doesn't anyone find it odd that Turkey, a muslim country for almost as long, has no incidence of such judgements? Is the problem Islam, or the flavor?
Alright, PJ, I know this line sounds rather liberal, but in my opinion we need to understand that this is a differant culture. One of my former teachers (and his wife) taught in Oman for two years. While this isn't Saudi Arabia, it's also a Muslim Sultanate, which is what you're getting at, I presume. According to him (and his wife), they were a little surprised at seeing women doing all these things - until they were invited into the homes, and saw a little deeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
According to their first-hand accounts, while women had little freedom by western standards, most of them, especially the rich, had no complaint. It is simply another culture, and how they are brought up. The rich women especially often have servants, luxurious trappings, and see and have parties with their women friends often. They are generally quite content.
It is simply another perspective on life, which, in Oman, people are quite content with. You cannot call something "sick" or "immoral" that you do not fully understand, or that you cannot see the other side of.
EDIT: I completely agree that these laws should never be practiced in the Western World, but what happens in the Middle East is their business.
Why cannot one make judgement calls about a way of life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I'm a liberal, and I think this whole moral relativist thinking is bull excrement. There's multiculturalism, a bad word apparently for some people here, and there's just being an apologist. You call it for what it is, and challenge it all you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
I'm a fan of Amnesty International, of ACLU (if only for their unbiased, single-minded intent at securing as much libertarian freedom as possible regardless of the sheer idiotic criminality of some of their clients; they'd defend the so-called Christian Right's freedom of expression as readily as they do black people), of organizations similar to them in outlook and goal, and of a fairer, more open society less weighted down by traditional morality -- a society of rights and freedoms rather than unwritten codes of conduct and social control through faith. I'm not a fan of "excusing" scums for being scums.
And quite frankly, rich people are happy everywhere. You can't possibly expect me to consider them, the I-drink-only-obscure-South-African-tea crowd, as representatives of "another" culture!
If anything, the traditional definition of liberalism is to liberate -- where has that gone to? Of American liberals alone, we were liberating in the 1770's, against the Empire; we were liberating in the 1860's, against slavery; and we were liberating in the 1960's, against "traditional morality" that stifles justice, dissent, happiness, and reason. We still have a long way to go before us "liberals" can claim that we have achieved anything close to the dream of a freer, better humankind that was once such a glorious cry to so many. Why are we now excusing the thugs of the House of Al-Saud for crimes against humanity? At least the neo-cons, hypocrite sonsofagun as they are, can claim to befriend this heinous regime out of pragmatic grounds, namely, oil and strategic location. We the leftist liberals have nothing as such to stand on.
Of course, blaming Islam is waaaaaaay besides the point and reeks of Islamophobia. But you know, people are prejudiced.
I do realize that and find it Ironic but Bush is the one in love with the Saudis and Musharaff(pakistani dictator jerk) not me. The flavor is definately the problem. If I remember correctly the Saudis have an expecially "conservative" flavor of Islam called Wahabism or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I'm allowed to criticize whoever I see fit, and I chose to criticizes these monsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Like it has been stated, the rich are not a good representation of the general population. By the sound of it, these people were of the extremely wealthy class.
Also, is it women's business, who reside in the country, to decide how they are treated? What if they disagree with how the country is run, but lack the power to do anything about it? What if they disagree with the monarchy?
Yes, Waldinger. Saudi Arabia is extremely conservative(and heavy handed) in its interpretation of Islamic law. Its sorta like the Pope in the medieval age claiming to be ruler of all the world, basing it purely on the Bible. In my honest opinion, Islam isn't the problem, its the people who we(the west, especially the U.S.) allow to stay in power. Unfortunately, using military force has a tendency to backfire against religious radicals, as it only allows them to gather more followers to 'defend the faith', ie-their own power. And until we can develop more, and more plentiful, alternative fuel sources, 'kicking' oil will be nigh upon impossible. That, more than anything else, including global warming, is why we should be looking into oil alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
The problem is not with Islam. The problem is with secular humanist societies thinking they have some sort of superiority and moral highground, and that any society that is not a "free sex" society like theirs has something wrong with it. In fact, that is not the case. There is nothing wrong with a society not being a "free sex" society, as Muslim societies are not.
This seems also to be a stumblingblock in many failing to understand that the woman was never punished for being raped. In the update she even admits that the whole situation stems from her breaking the law. That of course does not justify her rape. The point is, there are two separate crimes in play here, and two separate punishments in play here. Trying to muddle the two together as an inaccurate sleight against Muslim societies (ie: claiming she is being punished for being raped) is wrong.
I'd like to share something with you guys here.
I was discussing an offer in Saudi very recently. Excellent pay, bad bad badass sports car, large appartment in a foreigners compound, I was told there'd be plenty of very high class foreign women there, direct access to one of the Sauds (royals), almost all expenses paid. It hardly took me about a minute to think about it. I asked to double the offer and I would accept it. I still refused. I would go there but it's just a bit too hairy for me. Imagine being right in the middle of all that. I'd have to be very desperate or paid a GREAT deal to do a job there. This was a high profile 2 year contract to assist in the restructuring of a major Saudi company, owned by the Royal family. Excellent career building stuff.
Remember that the culture is very different. I'm used to just talking to everyone, in my neighbourhood everyone knows me. I almost never pay at the restaurants, shops, nightshops, or bars here. I'm never asked to pay, I pay every couple of weeks, and everyone trusts me enough to not ask questions if I just say bye or good night and walk out. Sometimes if I'm pissed drunk I just go home, and pay later when I remember to. They also know I'm not originally from here, and remarkably they trust me more because of this. Saudi is a very closed society, it would be hard for me to live there.
I do respect that they are different, have different laws and culture, and it's wrong to throw crap at them for their laws and customs. It's also wrong to say that this is "Sharia" or Islamic law. This is Saudi law, a Wahabi law, to generalise it as Sharia/Islamic law is simply incorrect. And it's not just a matter of semantics. That would be akin to saying Sharia in Taliban Afghanistan is Islamic law. There are many different applications of Islamic law, and the Saudi version is Wahabist, it's extremist, in my view.