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So just to clarify, you believe that a mass migration of Nordic / Germani volk slaughtered and displaced prior inhabitants of what we today call Denmark, Germany, Austria, Holland, etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwulf
No sure about the Rugi, but the rest sounds goodQuote:
Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
Now there once was a famous SW US archaeologist that wrote ‘When is a Kiva.’ Please see Watson Smith. As some researchers at the time had taken to call nearly everything a kiva, his book provided detailed information about the architecture and setting of these important ceremonial structures.
In regards to the relevance of this little anecdote to the current debate, one may submit, ‘When is a 1st century BC German.’ One may then reply, ‘why stop there;' why not ask, ‘When is a Kelt, a Swaboz, a Nord, a Slav, a Balt, a Ligures?’ In other words; how does one defind each of these? For example were all Kelts created equal; in other words...
were the 1st century BC Kelts in Ireland the same as those found in Anatolia?
A very good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacq
Obviously not.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacq
I believe this was the point Psycho was trying to make (aparently unsuccessfully) elsewhere when Frostwulf stated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwulf
I even noticed that after Frostwulf quoted select pieces of 'World of the Celts' (Simon James) over and over again to support his aforementioned statement, the point didn’t seem to register with him even when James himself stated that the thinking was dated and that he believed there was no such thing as the timeless / generic Celt / German.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSYCHO V
I believe one is bound to reach the wrong conclusions in any given area of scientific study if one begins from what is known to be an erroneous premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwulf
Very much enjoy reading your work cmacq.
Right, I've had to deal with the same problem in SW US archaeology as well. Many researchers (particularly well established upper escalon types) have great difficulty wrapping their heads around the fact these are only theoretical constructs based on specific material assemblages. Out here, to be able to apply these constructs (as often they need to be modified}, to the facts on the ground, takes alot of work.
Some of this is about personal investment. I once had a very well know and very upset Phd ask me, as he removed his glasses to wipe the tears from his eyes, 'I thought you had more respect for the Hohokam?'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony II
Nope, still here. We don't ban people on the Org, except in extreme cases. We use a system of accumulating warning points resulting in temporary demotion and restriction of posting ability. Nor could the EB moderators hand out these if they wanted. The warning system can only be operated by full moderators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony II
Gday Ludens. Psycho asked me not to bring this up but seeing as you have raised it.... (hangon)..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
arrr..(*flick**flick**flick*) na, na, na, na, hmmm ..ummm.. no, nope, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, ...ah..errrrr, nup...na, na, na, ah here.....no that's not it. No, no, no, na, na, na..ah here it is !! :smiley:
Psycho's notes clearing state here .."I recieved no 'accumulating warning points', no 'temporary demotion' but am most certainly banned from parts of the org". He continues, "the only reason provided before all communication was cut off was that senior EB leaders stated that they found my presence 'threatening'".
Opps. Poor Psycho. So what happened to the aforementioned warning system? :shrug:
So says just about any who breathe: "no, no! no, really! I'm innocent! I swear!"
Trolls may regenerate and find various ways to come back again and again to harass and antagonize (obviously), eating my poor billy-goats! BUT WHO will drive my chariot now!? Beware trolls, I know you're out there and I'm a-waiting, feigning stillness, to suddenly then wrestle your arm off :viking:
Have fun bleeding to death!
wow ... I can't believe how coherent I was earlier
Let me guess, that was prison code for "I want you bad"?Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
How do I say "Sorry, its not you.. its me"?
:shrug:
You kids...
More parts of the big jigsaw, continue to fall into place, nicely.
From:
Lloyd Robert ---2006
The Archaeology of Celtic Britain and Ireland
There is a complete lack of oak in Irish archaeological contexts between 95 BC and AD 540, for example, and there seems to be a correlation between climatic change and the eclipse of the flourishing Iron Age society. Since there is a decline in archaeological evidence for human activity in the early centuries AD this factor may be related. For example, there was a steady decrease in the number of tree pollens at Red Bog (Mitchell; 1976: 117-21).
--------------------------
Thank god for the Irish and their dendro, I never though it would come down to this?
I already have several other lines of evidence confirming this precise time frame, as well. Ice core, pollen, other such data. I always go for massive overkill. I need to find the raw data for that statment. I love when a plan comes togther, as it’s now looking more and more like I'm getting ready to submit for publication? I can't believe no one else in the SW has figured this out yet, it’s sooooo bloody obvious. All I need is a little more field data.
So much for the '535 theory' as they say its often darkest before the dawn, or in this case the MWP, begining around AD 600. Sometimes the answers to big questions can be as clear as the frostbit nose on your face? Sorry I can’t be any less cryptic right now. I think Blitz may have an idea what the hell I talking about here?
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/535ad.htm
I'm so glade this is all 'settled science.'
Thank you Al Gore and all your many Fellow Travelers, God bless you.
for someone from the southwest, you use question marks in odd ways. and that was quite cryptic...some Irish dendrochronology helping you out with settlement development patterns in the SW at the same period, perhaps?
Please see Brian Fagan for an outline for the MWP and LIA. The above is about the period preceding the MWP. I may call it the RCP?Quote:
Originally Posted by paullus
Sorry, have to run, field day and the truck's here.
Just wanted to say that I agree that Germans should have naval capability. I understand and agree that the way the navy used for the Mediterranean factions just doesn't fit, but just because the German tribes didn't have proper military navies doesn't mean that naval invasions aren't an important part of the faction.
One of the EB members did say something about mercenary fleets in EB2, though, which I think would be the perfect solution.
Check out this link below
http://membres.lycos.fr/bronzeage/
Without doubt a spectacular link, very good work there, Thetank.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTank
First, I feel like an idiot as I posted something to the affect that, ‘Yes indeed, I rather agree with you on this point. To me it has seemed the Thuringi was the progenitor of some type of basal proto-Swabian ethnos (not the later Swabo-Federation we see functional at 60 BC).’Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
After reading this tonight, all I can say is I must have been very tired when I posted it. Actually, the use of the term Suebi appears to either predate or be contemporary with the use of Hermanduri. I think the three major groupings included the Istvaeones, Ingaevones, and Irminones.
The Istvaeones were the Nordwestblock people, while the confederation of the Ingaevones included the Cimbri, Teutons, and Chauci of Danmark. Then the Irminones, or what I think were Deutsch/or what I've called Nords, and the progenitors or basal enthos of the Suebi (Swabians), Hermanduri (Thuringians), Chatti (Hessian), and Cherusci.
Then for example the Swabian confederation also included the Semnones, Buri, Quadi, Alemanni (All men), and the Marcomanni (Marco's men); the last three or four representing latter additions/amalgamations. But, say in the mid 1st century BC, elements of the Hermanduri, Chatti, and Cherusci may have been considered, either actual members or temporary affiliates of the Suebi confederation.
I'm sure very few would agree with this.
Then there was the Suebi style of warfare within Germany in the 1st century BC.
I think it was GJC that wrote about the Suebi's program of ethnic cleansing within Germany in the mid 1st century BC?
Continuity and Contrast: Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in the Pre-Roman Iron Age
Someone once said something about the devil always being in the details. Returning to my thesis of a late massed Deutsch or Nordic continental arrival, I posit that there may have been some type of basal ethnos that occupied what is now northeast Germany (possibly in the state of Mecklenburg). Thus, a closer look at the archaeology of Mecklenburg may prove informative.
For reference, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern the Pre-Roman Iron Age began sometime around 600 BC and lasted until about the BC/AD terminus. Its also important to note that chronometrics for this area and era are not particularly precise and the assigned temporal setting may fluctuate at least 50 years either way. By the way, I selected this area because Tacitus’ use of Mare Suebicum, indicated that in the 1st century AD, tradition held this was the homeland of the Swabians prior to their fateful encounter with Gaius Julius Caesar in southwest Germany in the 1st century BC.
Although often placed within the Jastorf Culture, the material assemblage is best described as only peripheral to this construct as defined by Künnemann (1995). This is particular true of west Mecklenburg. Over the course of this Period the local cultural expression became increasing more influenced by the Hallstatt and later LaTene cultures of central Europe as contacts with southern Scandinavia continued (Reinecke 1991). In this Period the dominant burial pattern consisted of cremations within flat grave cemeteries, although small mounds and stone circles burials have been found in Boitin. Several of the former burial type cemeteries appear to have been used continuously from the Late Bronze Age until the Roman Iron Age. This may suggest a certain degree of long term continuity for some of the Pre-Roman Iron Age Mecklenburg-Vorpommern population that extended into the Late Bronze Age.
In the northern portion of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern the agricultural intensification that began in the Late Bronze Age appears to have increased as the local differentiation of the material culture increased. In contrast, the lack of imported bronze may suggest the decreased importance of trade and signify the local production of iron (Keiling 1982: 28-34; 1988; Krüger 1988; Voigt 1988). A demographic estimate, based on burial evidence, suggests that west Mecklenburg was densely occupied in the 4th century BC, with a population of 75,000 to 125,000. However, at some point after 300 BC the population level appears to have decreased slightly but steadily until sometime in the late 2nd or early 1st centuries BC, when west Mecklenburg was virtually abandoned. Concurrently, central Mecklenburg and northeast Vorpommern experienced very low population densities as well.
Some researchers have postulated that this initial overall decrease in population may have been caused by disruptions associated with the historical Cimbri migration. Interestingly the terminus for the Jastorf and Ripdorf phases has been placed at around 300 BC, as the local populations appear to go into a slow decline. In contrast, the Seedorf phase represented by widespread abandonments has been deliberately centered on 120 BC, the projected date of the Cimbri exodus from Denmark.
I suggest that indeed the transition between the Jastorf and Ripdorf phases may indicate the initial emergence or arrival of the Irminones/Swabian ethnos around 300 BC. If this was the case case the Irminones/Swabian presence was virtually indistinguishable, other than a slight population decrease possibly associated with an increase in warfare, had little other impact on the native population. Furthermore, I agree that the latter abandonments, in the Seedorf phase, were initially inspired by the Cimbri migration and the subsequent Irminones/Swabian expansion to the south and southwest. Regardless, regional reoccupation and significant population increase was experienced in the 1st century AD (Keiling 1982: 35–37). Of course, this brings us to the 'Origo Gentis Langobardorum,' the 'Historia gentis Langobardorum,' Vinnili, and the Langobardi (Long Beards).
References Cited
Keiling, Horst 1982
Archäologische Funde vom Spätpaläolithikum bis zur vorrömischen Eisenzeit aus den mecklenburgischen Bezirken. Museumskatalog 1. Schwerin: Museum für Ur- und Frühgeschichte.
Keiling, Horst 1988
Die Herausbildung der germanischen Stämme (ab etwa 6.Jahrhundert v.u.Z.): Die Entstehung der Jastorfkultur und zeitgleicher Kulturen im Rhein-Weser-Gebiet und deren geographische Verbreitung. In: B.Krüger (ed.), pp. 86–105.
Künnemann, W. 1995
Jastorf: Geschichte und Inhalt eines archäologischen Kulturbegriffs, Die Kunde N. F. 46, 61-122.
Krüger, Bruno (ed.) 1986
Die Germanen. Geschichte und Kultur der germanischen Stämme in Mitteleuropa. Vol. II: Die Stämme und Stammesverbände in der Zeit vom 3.Jahrhundert bis zur Herausbildung der politischen Vorherrschaft der Franken. Veröffentlichungen des Zentralinstituts für Alte Geschichte und Archäologie der Akademie der Wissenschaften der DDR. Berlin: Akademie-Verlag.
Reinecke, Andreas 1991
Studien zur vorrömischen Eisenzeit im Umland der südlichen Ostsee. Forschungsstand-Chronologie-Kulturhistorische Beziehungen. Ethnographisch-Archäologische Zeitschrift 21, 129-146.
Voigt, Theodor 1988
Die germanischen Stämme bis zum Beginn unserer Zeitrechnung: Kult- und Bestattungswesen. In: B.Krüger (ed.), pp. 182-191.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacq
Just want to note that Marcomanni doesn't mean Marco's men. Marco?
Rather Markamannoz - Bordermen.
Right, I've seen that as well. I guess it all depends on which you want to believe; either the 'Mark-o-men' or the exo-facto 'Marcus' Men,' lines. At least the later has a documented 'Apocalypse Now-ques,' story behind it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaFe
Although I think Oliver Stone is a total moron, I like the 'Apocalypse Now' or renegade Roman legate run amok, story line for the Marcomanni etymology better.
Please see 'Marcus Fabius Romanus.'
Isn't this a classic example of a Red Herring?
As I though, it seems that this Jastorf Culture has...
mehr Anschein als Substanz.
Ethnogenesis and Integration: A view from the Pre-Roman Iron Age Bardengau Zone
We now turn to the Pre-Roman Iron Age Period Archaeology of west central Lower Saxony around Luneburg, also referred to as the Bardengau Zone. Again, due to factors outlined above its important to note that the assigned temporal setting may fluctuate at least 50 years either way. This area was selected as it is immedately south and west of Mecklenburg.
In the Bardengau Zone we find a nearly identical pattern to that found in west Mecklenburg. Here Wegewitz (1972) identified a rather compact grouping of urn-burial cemeteries in the Elbe valley between the Oste and Jeetzel rivers. Over the course of this occupation these cremation cemeteries represent material assemblages that demonstrate an increasing Hallstatt and later LaTene cultural affiliation with some influence from southern Scandinavia. Once more some of these cemeteries appear to suggest a certain degree of long term continuity between the Late Bronze Age well into the Pre-Roman Iron Age.
As with Mecklenburg-Vorpommern the vast majority of the burials recovered from the Bardengau Zone cremation cemeteries date from the 6th to 3rd centuries BC. A relative decline in the number of burials between 300 and 120 BC was noted. At the end of this period the use of a large number of these cemetery sites was rather abruptly discontinued. This evidence suggests major demographic disruptions occurred throughout the later 2nd and early 1st centuries BC and may be associated with the Cimbri migration as this region lies directly along their hypothesized route between Denmark and Bohemia. Once again the Jastorf, Ripdorf, and Seedorf phase trichotomy seems to have been correctly applied.
With the population decline in the 1st century BC, there also was the sudden appearance of differentiated male and female internments; and the associated spur, spear, sword, and shield among funerary items within the remaining burials. The demographic changes and appearance of weapon burials suggest the rapid emergence of a militaristic community where the use of the lance and competent horsemanship had become a defining cultural attribute (Christie 1995).
Künnemann (1995) proposes the Pre-Roman Iron Age Period Bardengau Zone expression is typical of the Jastorf Culture concept. Interestingly, the area encompassed by the modern states of Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein are considered the core, or heartland, of the Jastorf Culture. Yet, the marked continuity of the material assemblages found within this area strongly suggests this Pre-Roman Iron Age Jastorf construct was but a later adaptation of the widespread Late Bronze Age Urnfield Culure. Over this point, its important to remember the Urnfield Culture initially appeared in a wide band between the Netherlands and central Poland, and while a later contemporary, the Hallstatt Culture is actually a separate construct.
On the other hand, Wegewitz provides that the Bardengau Zone culture represents the historic Langobardi. More recently, researchers have noted that this example is one element of a larger expression found between the Weser to the Vistula rivers. Furthermore, Christie correctly seems to point out that at some point, at least part of this expression, represented the emergence of a Suevi or Swabian ethnos.
References Cited
Christie, Neil 1995
The Lombards: The Ancient Langobards, Oxford UK and Cambridge USA.
Künnemann, W. 1995
Jastorf: Geschichte und Inhalt eines archäologischen Kulturbegriffs, Die Kunde N. F. 46, 61-122.
Wegewitz, W 1972
Das Langobardische brandgräberfeld von Putensen, Kreise Harburg.
Sorry, but I edited and moved this post to page 7.
I know this is out of sequence ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltic Hunter
Den funntomme perioden?
Baltic Hunter, could you please find the factual basis and reference for the deteriorating climate statement in this paragraph. Being that far north, I assume this period of deterioration began around 100 BC. This may sound a bit strange but this is the key to understanding everything. I have other data from other parts of the world, yet I firmly believe in massive overkill.
One may find a similar phenom marks the start of the Late Bronze Age around 1300-1200 BC and the High Medieval about AD 1300.
Auf diesem thema unterschätzen einige mich. Es scheint unterschätzen mich sehr groß.
Verzeihen, arbeite ich auf mehrere projekten im augenblick und erhalte nicht viel Schlaf. Ja, ich muß jetzt schlafen.
Ich fange wieder bald an und auf diesem thema mehr kommt.
Want to help find a settlement (oppida?) that had importance during 272BCE around / near Thüringen for EB2? Any data while you're at it there would be helpful. I am sure something can be found from juxtaposition of the Geographia with other data, hwæt sæġst þū?
You may be thinking of the Steinsburg Oppidum near Romhild, Thuringia?
http://images.questia.com/?fif=b6141...trx=1&cvt=jpeg
Located in extreme southwest Thuringa with a history very similar history to that of the Glauberg Oppidum. I was going to include this with the Bohemian Oppida network. I don't know about Geographia as it was abandoned in the 1st century BC, again most likely due to Swabian expansion. Still Steinsburg might have been Bikourgion?
bikourgion seems likw a good candidate for a settlement in the area... i wonder if there is anything else we might know, such as the name origin so it can be adjusted to the correct naming system.
Bikourgion or Bicurgion is the name given by Ptolemy in Geographia for 34° 30? 51° 15?
From what Ive read of Psycho's posts I think he's one of the most sensible people Ive seen argue a point in this forum. I certainly hope he wasnt banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony II
Sensible perhaps, but dishonest most certainly. I didn't mind his typical juvenile responses nor his misunderstanding/misinterpretation of material. What bothered me was the claims he never backed up, his distortion of citations(to support his view) and one he made up completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny5
I don't feed trolls(Anthony II, aka-Psycho V) but since this has been brought up and I believe the troll has returned to his cave I'll reply to his post.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=123
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=360Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwulf
I also repeat myself here once again:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=401Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostwulf