Jailbreak in Gaza

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They don't even target the military.

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Yes Rabbit , neither do they target the police, the border police or the government .
Its easy to rip into Hamas using facts that are actually true Rabbit , why don't you try it once in a while :coffeenews:

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Hezbollah hid their rocket sites near schools and hospitals, just to give that impression.

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It doesn't matter where they hid them because Israel declared that there were no civilians .

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Really? Cuz we always seem to talk with them for the road map to peace. You notice how people in the west bank aren't starving? Hamas, as has been said, is not all the Palestinians, and just because we do not talk to them doesn't mean we don't talk to Palestinians (like, oh, Fatah, aka Hamas lite). Funny you don't quote my whole remark.

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Thats funny , when Abbas was appointed as negotiator for the road map talks they wouldn't talk to him , apparently he was a real dodgy charachter who represented suicide bombers...once his party lost the election they suddenly call him the face of reason that they can talk to:dizzy2:

I have to give it to the Israeli's for making the biggest and best (or worst) concentration camp in history.
Hmmm since Nazism cannot be used here may as well just call it racism legitimised.

Oh no but. that's right Jews went through so much 60 years ago, so we should just heap the punishment on the Arabs of Palestine.
Or, god it happened ages ago they need to let go and accept it, hmmm wait a sec!

Unfortunate for our governments when they just won't shut up and leave or die slowly.

But it don't matter, they are just terrorists after all...

I sadly doubt that much will happen in the next half century, but maybe in 70 Israel will be forced to concede it's shame, it's un-fading shame.
Here's friecken hoping the West get's a spine sooner!

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

It's not a few crazy people launching the rockets into Israel. It is the government the Palestinians chose for themselves. The terrorists are the government.

Israel didn't 'steal' land from the Palestinians; they bought it and Israel was one country out of several formed from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire.

The Palestinians have systematically violated the agreements they have reached with Israel. They started this current cycle of violence.

Has Israel done wrong - certainly. But Hamas and Fatah could choose peace, and they do not.

CR

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Israel was created by war and ethnic expulsion, nothing more.
What on God's Green Earth are you reading?

So the Arabs were like "Oh yeah just take our land that's fine, oh you'll pay for it by allowing us water and electricity, what more could we ask for?!"

Isreal has done wrong? Israel only escaped having it's leader being judged a mass murderer because of the U.N's weakness.
Wrong is the light side of that evil.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Israel was created by war and ethnic expulsion, nothing more.
What on God's Green Earth are you reading?

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This is incorrect - Israel was a mandate by the United Nations. Now the outcome of Israel is something else - but before making such a bold claim and critizing someone of what they are reading - it would help if you actually espoused the facts as they are.

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So the Arabs were like "Oh yeah just take our land that's fine, oh you'll pay for it by allowing us water and electricity, what more could we ask for?!"

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Read up on the Zionist plans before the mandate, and the fighting that happened because of that. Its rather a pitful and sad history concerning that region of the world. One would ask why haven't the Arab nations surrounding Israel done more to help the Palestine cause then the bare surface support that is given. Look at what Jordan did to the Palenstine refugees. Again Isreal and the Palenstine issue is more complex then a simple statement.

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Isreal has done wrong? Israel only escaped having it's leader being judged a mass murderer because of the U.N's weakness.
Wrong is the light side of that evil.

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Which Prime Minister? You might want to check into that one just a tad, you might be surprised. Then again what about the leaders of the countries around Israel - are they all knightly saints?

These questions are purely rethorical since I happen to know the answer to many of them alreadly. My point is having such a hard stance against Israel leaves one open to ignore the problems caused by the zealots that are on b oth sides, and the zealots that also encourage them from outside.

I am not a fan of either side. The bloodshed will not end in Israel until everyone has bleed enough to scream quit - or one side is completely destroyed.

The Israel Mandate will be viewed in history as the greatest failing of the United Nations and the event that set the conditions for world wide conflict.

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This is incorrect - Israel was a mandate by the United Nations. Now the outcome of Israel is something else

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True , if you note that Israel as mandated has never existed .
Is that what you mean by "outcome" Red?

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Which Prime Minister?

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At a guess I would say he is on about Sharon , in which case his conlusions ......

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Israel only escaped having it's leader being judged a mass murderer because of the U.N's weakness.

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......are incorrect .

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Again Isreal and the Palenstine issue is more complex then a simple statement.

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I like that , if you take it and apply it to

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Look at what Jordan did to the Palenstine refugees.

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with a few changes into look at the deal Jordan did with Israel before they went to war "for the Palestinians" .

So, all the finger pointing and apportioning of blame aside. What is the solution to the Israel/Palestine Issue? It's easy enough for us to sit here and blame either side but of course in truth both sides are to blame, what most people seem to disagree on is who is the most to blame.

No matter what side you sympathise with and no matter what your reasoning, one fact remains: It's a hopeless situation, and without some kind of outside help it could go on forever, or until one side has been wiped out.

The 'outside' help solution is not going to work. While it may sound good, it would not work.
I find it helpful to consider the similarities between U.S. segregation and the Israel-Palestine conflict.

The U.S. segregation conflict was an example of general prejudice against African-Americans, both in on a lower level and on the state level.
However, luckily, MLK and his group were intelligent enough to take the peaceful route. They weren't like Malcolm X or the apathetic groups. He worked hard, and was rewarded.

The Palestinians, they followed Malcolm X. They took it to the streets with violence and rockets, and used violence. They need to use nonviolence. Israel cannot be defeated on the battlefield, nor has the guerrilla movement shown any effect. Through non-violence, the Palestinians can unite with the average Israeli and the world at large. To assume that outside intercession will solve this problem is to invite violence and more trouble.

Letter from Birmingham Jail

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Originally Posted by MLK

You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil."

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Originally Posted by caravel

So, all the finger pointing and apportioning of blame aside. What is the solution to the Israel/Palestine Issue? It's easy enough for us to sit here and blame either side but of course in truth both sides are to blame, what most people seem to disagree on is who is the most to blame.

No matter what side you sympathise with and no matter what your reasoning, one fact remains: It's a hopeless situation, and without some kind of outside help it could go on forever, or until one side has been wiped out.

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I believe I've suggested quite a few possible solutions, depending on how much effort Israel and the west are prepared to put in (Palestine is a non-entity as far as active solutions go). So take your pick from the many solutions of all shapes and sizes that I've proposed. For me, the idea of fencing off that whole region and letting them sort it out however they want seems quite attractive. Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and many of those other ME countries offer us nothing that we can't get elsewhere, so we might as well leave them to it and deal with the likes of Saudi and the oil states at need. No sense in wasting money in that region if the protagonists aren't willing to give something back.

Of course, if this hurts business, then an alternative version would be to continue business, but stop all aid of any kind. You want economic aid? Only if you have something to give in return. You want military aid? No chance, if you want to buy basic military equipment, pay for it from your own pocket. There is little reason for our taxpayers to continue throwing money down this bottomless well in the hope that our wishes will come true.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

True , if you note that Israel as mandated has never existed .
Is that what you mean by "outcome" Red?

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Pretty close to what I meant.

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At a guess I would say he is on about Sharon , in which case his conlusions ............are incorrect .

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true

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I like that , if you take it and apply it to with a few changes into look at the deal Jordan did with Israel before they went to war "for the Palestinians" .

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Yes I find that part of history rather interesting given that it is often neglected when people discuss Israel.

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Originally Posted by caravel

So, all the finger pointing and apportioning of blame aside. What is the solution to the Israel/Palestine Issue? It's easy enough for us to sit here and blame either side but of course in truth both sides are to blame, what most people seem to disagree on is who is the most to blame.

No matter what side you sympathise with and no matter what your reasoning, one fact remains: It's a hopeless situation, and without some kind of outside help it could go on forever, or until one side has been wiped out.

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Simple: One side has to give up. Until then all we can do is line up on sides and fight with each other.

Problem is the Jews aren't going to leave voluntarily and their surrounding Arab neighbors like to use Israel as an outlet for their people's anger. Peace in the Middle East is a greater threat to many than the current conflict.

America's energy independence won't help solve this cycle. As long as the oil is there someone will want to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Problem is the Jews aren't going to leave voluntarily and their surrounding Arab neighbors like to use Israel as an outlet for their people's anger. Peace in the Middle East is a greater threat to many than the current conflict.

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On that point I agree with you, but leaving the so called Arab neighbours out of for now, what else can be done? The Arab neighbours are reluctant to get involved militarily as they probably remember the few occasions they've taken on Israel and lost. In view of this they're not in any position to put pressure on Israel and Israel know this of course. As I see it there are two entities that can really make a difference: Israel and it's main backer the US. The Palestinians as I see it are not in the position to help themselves let alone unify to embrace any kind of diplomatic solution.

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Originally Posted by caravel

On that point I agree with you, but leaving the so called Arab neighbours out of for now, what else can be done? The Arab neighbours are reluctant to get involved militarily as they probably remember the few occasions they've taken on Israel and lost. In view of this they're not in any position to put pressure on Israel and Israel know this of course. As I see it there are two entities that can really make a difference: Israel and it's main backer the US. The Palestinians as I see it are not in the position to help themselves let alone unify to embrace any kind of diplomatic solution.

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Part of me believes the US is the only power capable of helping, yet we can't. We've backed Israel for so long and have such a vested interest in its survival that we are (or are perceived as being) too biased in their favor. The current and last Presidents have done a lot to try to alleviate the problem (which always involves Israel retreating) and it hasn't done much good. There was a chance to solve the problem in the 90's but Arafat backed out (another problem about this conflict is people's selective memories). The only thing I like about the elections is the fact that it split the Palestinians and that they're fighting among themselves. If they want their own state let's see if they can run one.

If they want their own state they need to take lessons from Ghandi. He knew how to attack a western government; not through its military but through the emotions of its people. THEN they would be the victims, not belligerents as they currently are.

The Palestinians can choose a diplomatic solution, they can control their own destiny. Of course, accepting that means accepting that they've chosen terrorism since 2000.

But guess what, if Hamas stopped attacks on Israel, they could start working towards peace, greater freedom for Palestinians. The ball is in their court.

CR

There was a chance to solve the problem in the 90's but Arafat backed out

Im not completely sure but from memory the offer was insulting and would have involved palestinians giving up thier claims on jerusulem and other things, this is why Arafat declared the infidata. By accepting that deal arafat would have given up the palestinians rights to alot.

The Palestinians can choose a diplomatic solution, they can control their own destiny. Of course, accepting that means accepting that they've chosen terrorism since 2000.

I remember everyone saying Fatah are terrorists so we couldn't deal with them and then came along Hamas, oh ok now those Fatah guys aren't so bad but Hamas no thier terrorists, I think the Palestinians should turn round and say we refuse to deal with terrorists either so both sets of terrorists (isrealis and palestinians) could sit there refusing to talk to each other.

But guess what, if Hamas stopped attacks on Israel, they could start working towards peace, greater freedom for Palestinians.

Really ?!

so what was isreal doing before Hamas started attacking ? giggling like a little school winding up the angry dog and then refusing any kind of treatment for the dog on the basis that its angry.

Palestinians just stopping the terrorist attacks would not get them thier land back would not get thier fair share of water and would not even get them an Independent Jerusulem.

Like all really "good" conflicts this is based upon religion. Both want the same land more or less "because God said so". Israel doesn't want the West Bank. The Palestinians can have that - so the situation is very different from India.

The USA likes having someone in the Middle East to do its dirty work without being directly responsible.

Many middle east countries like having areas where they can attack Israel without being directly responsible.

To tell Palestinians they have accepted Terrorism is all very well from our nice comfortable seats. No one sends tanks into your neighbourhood and shoots people who protest. And hearing people tell Israel it's not nice might irritate you slightly. Then there's a group who not only appears to fight back, but also seems to help the people (winning hearts and minds) well you might like them.

Saing if Hamas stopped it would all be Roses is either ignorance or bias. There are still illegal settlements. There are still border fences. There are still missile attacks by a country who has no death penalty on its statute books. The death toll is massively against the Palestinians.

BOTH are belligerents. BOTH are guilty. BOTH need to stop.
But Israel suffers a few missiles compared with forming the biggest ghetto in the world.

~:smoking:

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But guess what, if Hamas stopped attacks on Israel, they could start working towards peace, greater freedom for Palestinians. The ball is in their court.

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Typical rubbish that shows unthinking bias , the ball is in both courts .

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Im not completely sure but from memory the offer was insulting and would have involved palestinians giving up thier claims on jerusulem and other things,

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It wasn't so much that it was insulting ( any concessions demanded from either side could be viewed as insulting) , the plan was bogus because it refused to deal with core issues , without the core issues being addressed then anything else is simply window dressing .

Since I don't really get why are palestinians "wrong" and should give up their lands, can someone please write a post where he/she explains "What to do when a whole stranger nation comes to your land, butchers your people, drives you off your land, lives in your place, and aggravates you for ever after, one that has got the global support?" (As in assuming you all say "resistance" is wrong, I wonder what's your take on it)

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

Since I don't really get why are palestinians "wrong" and should give up their lands, can someone please write a post where he/she explains "What to do when a whole stranger nation comes to your land, butchers your people, drives you off your land, lives in your place, and aggravates you for ever after, one that has got the global support?" (As in assuming you all say "resistance" is wrong, I wonder what's your take on it)

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The answer is simple. The Israelis should keep their land because there's no way of separating them from it. The Palestinians deserve that land as much as they can get it back. I believe I explained this to you before, a year or so ago, so here it is again. If you want that land back, then why on earth should outside agencies intervene to get them back for you? What would we gain from it? If you can't offer us anything for this favour, why should we do it?

Stop talking about should and should not, and start talking about can and can not. Can you expel the Israelis from their country? If not, why are you complaining?

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

Since I don't really get why are palestinians "wrong" and should give up their lands, can someone please write a post where he/she explains "What to do when a whole stranger nation comes to your land, butchers your people, drives you off your land, lives in your place, and aggravates you for ever after, one that has got the global support?" (As in assuming you all say "resistance" is wrong, I wonder what's your take on it)

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Same thing countless people have done across the millenia: Fight back, win or die trying, or give up and leave. Emotional and subjective arguments like yours will do nothing to solve this conflict.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

The answer is simple. The Israelis should keep their land because there's no way of separating them from it. The Palestinians deserve that land as much as they can get it back. I believe I explained this to you before, a year or so ago, so here it is again. If you want that land back, then why on earth should outside agencies intervene to get them back for you? What would we gain from it? If you can't offer us anything for this favour, why should we do it?

Stop talking about should and should not, and start talking about can and can not. Can you expel the Israelis from their country? If not, why are you complaining?

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I think the problem with your argument is that Israel was helped by the outside nations and continues to get vast support from governments abroad to an extent that the Palestinians cannot realistically hope to win by force alone.

However, if you have nothing left and the Israelis send tanks and warplanes over your villages and into your refugee camps, are you just going to sit around and get shot or fight back? Diplomacy is of course an option, but Israel will not negotiate on even terms, which I believe it should if it really wanted peace.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Stop talking about should and should not, and start talking about can and can not. Can you expel the Israelis from their country? If not, why are you complaining?

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Well, I'd imagine they would've had better luck with that if Israel didn't get so much western support in terms of money, weapons, and technology. Militarily, this conflict is competely one sided due to outside factors. Personally, I'm not quite into those "might makes right" arguments, but to each his own.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7211966.stm

Israel will resume supply shipments.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

Like all really "good" conflicts this is based upon religion. Both want the same land more or less "because God said so". Israel doesn't want the West Bank. The Palestinians can have that - so the situation is very different from India.

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I don't know about that. I'd argue religion is being used as an excuse to sway the masses, but the actual people who are in charge behind the scenes have other priorities.

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

Since I don't really get why are palestinians "wrong" and should give up their lands, can someone please write a post where he/she explains "What to do when a whole stranger nation comes to your land, butchers your people, drives you off your land, lives in your place, and aggravates you for ever after, one that has got the global support?" (As in assuming you all say "resistance" is wrong, I wonder what's your take on it)

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A correction must be noted concerning weapons - Israel has a core supply within its nation for its weapon development and supply. Yes indeed Israel gets a lot of support from outside sources but it would be a false scenerio to think that Israel could not keep itself armed from within. The cost would distrupt their economic stability but I think Israel would sacrifice that to insure its survival as a nation.

Now to answer x-dANGEr question - minus the global support would be the ingenous tribes of the New World. Ie look what the Europeans did to all the native tribes of the America's and the islands that they decided were theres.

Then there is what the United States itself did to the many tribes after it won its independence from its European overlord.

Have fun with the irony of it.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

A correction must be noted concerning weapons - Israel has a core supply within its nation for its weapon development and supply. Yes indeed Israel gets a lot of support from outside sources but it would be a false scenerio to think that Israel could not keep itself armed from within. The cost would distrupt their economic stability but I think Israel would sacrifice that to insure its survival as a nation.

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Israel recieves money from the outside world, namely the United States, that enables it to keep it's internal arms industry running. Without outside funding, I don't believe Israeli arms would be either as good or as numerous as they are now.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I don't know about that. I'd argue religion is being used as an excuse to sway the masses, but the actual people who are in charge behind the scenes have other priorities.

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True, but isn't that usually how it goes? And leaders without masses are merely lunatics.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

I think the problem with your argument is that Israel was helped by the outside nations and continues to get vast support from governments abroad to an extent that the Palestinians cannot realistically hope to win by force alone.

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I've long advocated the cessation of all aid to all sides, including the Israelis, and leaving them to fight it out or settle down, whichever they wish. Or at least stop all favours, so if they want to buy stuff from us, they'll have to pay full whack without any concessions or credit. Does this mean that we'll be unfairly favouring Israel, as only they can afford to take advantage of this free trade policy? Probably, but as long as they pay us for this privilege, what's wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

However, if you have nothing left and the Israelis send tanks and warplanes over your villages and into your refugee camps, are you just going to sit around and get shot or fight back? Diplomacy is of course an option, but Israel will not negotiate on even terms, which I believe it should if it really wanted peace.

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Nowt to do with us. I might change my mind if either side were inclined to listen to our advice, but since they aren't, we might as well leave them alone.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

I've long advocated the cessation of all aid to all sides, including the Israelis, and leaving them to fight it out or settle down, whichever they wish. Or at least stop all favours, so if they want to buy stuff from us, they'll have to pay full whack without any concessions or credit. Does this mean that we'll be unfairly favouring Israel, as only they can afford to take advantage of this free trade policy? Probably, but as long as they pay us for this privilege, what's wrong with that?

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The damage has already been done. Palestine is in ruins and Israel controls pretty much everything there. Its own economy is now one of the world's largest. Changing the policy in terms of neutrality on deals and aid now won't change a lot.
The other thing of course is that no Western nation would sell (read: sell) arms to the Palestinians openly as they do with Israel.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

The damage has already been done. Palestine is in ruins and Israel controls pretty much everything there. Its own economy is now one of the world's largest. Changing the policy in terms of neutrality on deals and aid now won't change a lot.
The other thing of course is that no Western nation would sell (read: sell) arms to the Palestinians openly as they do with Israel.

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So what do you expect us to do, go back in time and change history? What's past is past, the only thing we can do now is deal with the present. And if my country were to sell arms to Palestine, I'd have no problem with it, as long as they're fairly basic, all paid for with their own money, and they're not receiving any of our tax money as aid. For the latter to be worthwhile, there needs to be economic or political concessions in our favour on their part. Since they have nothing significant of the first, and they're not doing the second, we should cease all spending on them.

Without subsidies the Israeli machine wouldn't be able to continue without a much greater part of GDP being spent on it.

Israeli actions anywhere else would have resulted in sanctions, not aid.

But why just leave the Middle East to its own devices, individual interest notwithstanding? Afghanistan is another open sore that is best left to the locals.

~:smoking: