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Interesting - are you claiming that the United States acted illegally and against international law in the former Yugoslavia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Is your arguement that attempting to stop genocide is wrong?
Is it against international law to recongize another nation that declares indepence from another?
Interesting - are you claiming that the United States acted illegally and against international law in the former Yugoslavia?
Yes. No UN resolution to legally back up the intervention, then breach of UN rules concerning sovereignty and Recognised International Borders.
Spain, Rumania and Russia (and others) share this opinion.
Is your arguement that attempting to stop genocide is wrong?
Nope. I fully approve any intervention in order to prevent genocide. I even will go further. US and EU operation should have been done before the real conflict started and put people around the negotiation table before the tragedy…
PS: I did pass borders illegally (after Desert Storm Operation) for Humanitarian Help. I still think it was legitimate. However it doesn't make it legal
However, Kosovo campaign was not aim to prevent genocide. If you followed Milocevic proceeding, it was shown that the expulsion of the Albanians in mass started after the beginning of the bombing campaign. Basically, operation Horse Shoes never happened, the Stadium in Pristina wasn’t used as a concentration camp as pretended by Madeleine Albright, no fresh bodies were recovered from the coal mines etc…
Racak was a complete set-up.
I am not denying that the MUP and others gangs did atrocities towards some Albanians, but nor the KLA was exempt of such behaviour… One of the leaders of the KLA is actually in The Hague to answer about some killings and rapes. I do not doubt he will leave the Court free and honourable, like Oric did… For the tribunal, to kill Serbians Civilians is legitimate.
I think I remember you were in Bosnia, so you know that the situation was a little bit more complex on the filed than in the media…
Is it against international law to recongize another nation that declares indepence from another?
Oh no. What is illegal is to recognise a country which takes one part of another country without negotiations (I means, real negotiations, not the one like Rambouillet). What is illegal is to use foreign troops under the UN cover to protect the, how can I qualify this, invasion, land-naping, the decision to cut family from their relatives and to declare that from now one, there are from a different country. It not only illegal, it is immoral. We bomb the Serbs to prevent them to do so (allegedly) and we are doing the same.
In fact, what will happen is a situation a la Cyprus… The Serbian population will leave within Serbian authority, laws and currency. The Kosovar will do use what ever money they want (probably US dollars or Euro). Every body will fail to recognise it but nobody will react against it.
In few years, Balkans business obliging, normalisation will come, and both side will join EU, will live happily within.:beam:
Kosovo intervention was very much a tail wagging the dog scenerio from the very beginning IMO. Now I would not call it illegal - mis-informed definitely. The initial briefs indicated that something bad (ie the term genocide was being batted around a lot,) but upon investigation it turned out to be incorrect. To bad the UN once again failed to actually confront the situtation prior to the start of the intervention. That and a certain politician in the United States wanting to deflect attention off of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Was the operation illegal - No, I actually asked that question to the Inspector General of the US Army because of the above scenerio. The answer given to me was the same one being used to explain Afganstan.
This was actually the intent of the operation at first. That we (the US) screwed up the time table attempting to bring sufficient force into the area prevented the attempt from going on schedule. Remember operations were delayed several times for several reasons, one being weather, the second being a crash that forced the grounding of aircraft for the operation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Some of that I realize because the intelligence was flawed from the very beginning. (Both the United States and UK should of realized then that our reliance on Electronic Intell was flawed.) Some information after Kosovo was never released in the United States because of the egg on the face of the adminstration at the time. Interesting to see that failure of information was not world wide. Explains some of the hostility of the Serbs regarding Kosovo. Its hard to face an independence of a section of land that was based upon false information being sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Yes I agree the KLA are/were a bunch of Thugs - to bad the United States believed their side more then the Serbs. But because of Bosnia the United States was looking for reasons not to trust the Serbia and the KLA played into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
I actually find the declartion of independence to be foolish of Kosovo - however to call it illegal under international law is too strong of an arguement, since international law probably does not address declartions of independence. Nor is the independence immoral - if people feel strongly enough to revolt against their current leadership and declare independence, then they have a moral arguement to do just that. IE the United States model.Quote:
Is it against international law to recongize another nation that declares indepence from another?
Oh no. What is illegal is to recognise a country which takes one part of another country without negotiations (I means, real negotiations, not the one like Rambouillet). What is illegal is to use foreign troops under the UN cover to protect the, how can I qualify this, invasion, land-naping, the decision to cut family from their relatives and to declare that from now one, there are from a different country. It not only illegal, it is immoral. We bomb the Serbs to prevent them to do so (allegedly) and we are doing the same.
In fact, what will happen is a situation a la Cyprus… The Serbian population will leave within Serbian authority, laws and currency. The Kosovar will do use what ever money they want (probably US dollars or Euro). Every body will fail to recognise it but nobody will react against it.
In few years, Balkans business obliging, normalisation will come, and both side will join EU, will live happily within.:beam:
“The answer given to me was the same one being used to explain Afghanistan.” The Russian one?
Joke apart, how the two countries can be compared? Afghanistan was harbouring an organisation which actually attacked US? Serbia never attacked US… Kosovo was more an internal badly managed affair…
“But because of Bosnia the United States was looking for reasons not to trust the Serbia and the KLA played into that.” Yes, that is the answer. The Serbs were the badies, and we taught them a lesson…
For the same reason, the expulsion of the Serbs from Croatia after Flash and Storm operations was accepted by the EU and US, the exodus of the Serbs from Sarajevo and several Bosnians area was accepted…
It was sold to the public. The Serbs were the aggressors, the ultimate villains.
Well, it is still at work nowadays if you read some reactions…
What really bothers me is the lack of understanding of what the Serbs think. Javier Solana and his comments: Does he really think that the Serbs want EU now? After this denial of justice?
Kosovo is as well Methojia, which means the land of the Church. Except if the very communist Tito did built 1000 of religious monuments, some have to accept that is the Religious heart of Serbia. So due the definition of nationality in this area is based on religion (Croats are Catholics, Bosnians Muslim), roughly, more complex than that but roughly, the EU and US just took their historical myth to the Serbs, Kosovo Polje were Prince Lazar and Sultan (err, not sure of the title) Murad confronted each other and died (both of them)…
All the enemies of Serbia are still playing with that. The fact that Serbia was the only countries revolting against its dictator, the fact that Serbia even today is still multi-ethnic, all that doesn’t count. Even worst it play against Serbian interest: Croatia having expelled its own Serbs has no problem regarding this issue: The Reward of a successfull Ethnic Cleansing...
A little bit of effort and all the Serbs, from the relative majority in Yugoslavia will become minorities (but don’t worry, their rights will be guaranty by the people who few years ago were slaughtering them) and five or six countries. If they are good, they will be able to keep Belgrade. If no other oppressed minorities wanting to become majority have a claim of it, of course…
The actual situation is: Serbs are minority in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and now Kosovo. Soon will arise the problem of Vojvodine. Well, we can create a problem, and draw a border, including more Hungarians than Serbs are well, give them Independence. Same operations with Sandzak, Sumadija… Why not?
“IE the United States model.” The USA didn’t include London in their claim. Again Kosovo is Metohjia as well. Give Kosovo, the Serbs won’t give too much attention to the piece of stones. Metohjia (forgot the spelling, grr) is the problem.
It would be interesting.
How many provinces could divide from coutries.
1) Every US State
2) Quebec (French majority)
3) Scotland
4) Wales
5) South France (muslims)
6) Whole Spain
7) North Italy (due to North League aspirations)
8) Berlin (Turks)
9) Meklemburg (there is fast polish colonization)
10) East Estonia
11) East Latvia
12) Laponia (North Sweden/Norway)
13) Wojwodina
14) Whole Russian Federation Republics
15) Big Parts of China
16) Arab cities from Israel
17) Kurdistan
I won't mention Africa because it is one big (here you can put 6 letter word started from f and finished on n) mess (with honorable exeption for Egypt -sun and hot sea).
You forgot to mention Belgium.
And I don't know a six letter word beginning with 'f' and ending with 'n' to fit that place:scholar:
Petoria. NOT Peterland!
....and good riddance!Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
But they make awesome knives
Who?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Thinking of "samekniven"?
The suomi people make them, the handle is made with rings of deer-horn and has cool patterns, blade I don't know but it's so sharp it's scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Actually I was thinking along both the old Soviet reason and the United States reasons. The difference of course being the attack on the United States, but controlling violence was the excuse of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenus
Havent thought of it much towards that aspect. Having seen the violence that has been done, and the news reports of what is currently happening, I just don't have much support for the Serbian viewpoint.Quote:
“But because of Bosnia the United States was looking for reasons not to trust the Serbia and the KLA played into that.” Yes, that is the answer. The Serbs were the badies, and we taught them a lesson…
For the same reason, the expulsion of the Serbs from Croatia after Flash and Storm operations was accepted by the EU and US, the exodus of the Serbs from Sarajevo and several Bosnians area was accepted…
It was sold to the public. The Serbs were the aggressors, the ultimate villains.
Well, it is still at work nowadays if you read some reactions…
What really bothers me is the lack of understanding of what the Serbs think. Javier Solana and his comments: Does he really think that the Serbs want EU now? After this denial of justice?
Kosovo is as well Methojia, which means the land of the Church. Except if the very communist Tito did built 1000 of religious monuments, some have to accept that is the Religious heart of Serbia. So due the definition of nationality in this area is based on religion (Croats are Catholics, Bosnians Muslim), roughly, more complex than that but roughly, the EU and US just took their historical myth to the Serbs, Kosovo Polje were Prince Lazar and Sultan (err, not sure of the title) Murad confronted each other and died (both of them)…
All the enemies of Serbia are still playing with that. The fact that Serbia was the only countries revolting against its dictator, the fact that Serbia even today is still multi-ethnic, all that doesn’t count. Even worst it play against Serbian interest: Croatia having expelled its own Serbs has no problem regarding this issue: The Reward of a successfull Ethnic Cleansing...
A little bit of effort and all the Serbs, from the relative majority in Yugoslavia will become minorities (but don’t worry, their rights will be guaranty by the people who few years ago were slaughtering them) and five or six countries. If they are good, they will be able to keep Belgrade. If no other oppressed minorities wanting to become majority have a claim of it, of course…
The actual situation is: Serbs are minority in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and now Kosovo. Soon will arise the problem of Vojvodine. Well, we can create a problem, and draw a border, including more Hungarians than Serbs are well, give them Independence. Same operations with Sandzak, Sumadija… Why not?
Again the model would support the independence declaration. Now cutting a city in two is not a smart move regardless of how it is done.Quote:
“IE the United States model.” The USA didn’t include London in their claim. Again Kosovo is Metohjia as well. Give Kosovo, the Serbs won’t give too much attention to the piece of stones. Metohjia (forgot the spelling, grr) is the problem.
I was in Belgrade 21st February in largest protest in history of Serbia. You know what happened [burning of US Embassy], but I wasn't involved ;-). I saved video [and photo, too] with my cell phone [not bad for Nokia 6120 classic :beam:] as much as possible and uploaded in YouTube.
In my town before buses went:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2_b5C5KZ1k
Main pause in highway [gasoline station]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijJL1UBHTnQ
Endless line of buses passing at gasoline station:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJx3NZYJ6Vg
We came at parking [at Sava Center and Hotel Intercontinental] and then we had to go by foot next 3 km:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7JDOlDa0fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goMewI5fL2E
On the way to Parliament of Serbia by foot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wznsF-IaoR8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Ex9DJGZ1g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBluLnU5hiE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O637Vl-u19o
At protest ‘Kosovo is Serbia’ in front of Parliament of Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tvIDT8LHtQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFdS_ZnfQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZMWL8XS7kM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnr9OFPW0mk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaIVLq_PeRU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXXCZLaqY8
On the way to Temple of St Sava:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nXRWfo6YGs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3mCa1-uheI
Oh god! 3 families of Albanians "dominate" the local baking industry! We must protest!
Pathetic. I'm losing sympathy for Serbia rapidly.
I laughted at this.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Seriously, I mean, what ? Have you ever been to France, or does all your knowledge about other countries come from nationalistic, far-right newspapers ?
Well, muslims are not intending whatever in my country, apart from some extremists, but who doesn't claim its own "stupid people quota"?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Anyway, if there were to be any concern about "separatists", it would be, in France, and in that order probably:
- Corsica (an island between France and Italy)
- Pays basque/ Pais Basco: extreme South west.
- Catalogne / Cataluña: South, Pyrennées mountains
- Britanny (north west "arm" on a map)
- Alsace (close to Germany)
None of which based on muslim religion anyway.
But please note that the "non community centered" politics here tends to prevent people from feeling too much "from this community" before "french". I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It's just not encouraged.. yet... Even in Corsica where bombs tend to explode in outsiders houses and where government buildings tend to be shot at, we're speaking of a "visible minority" (Not sure, maybe 5-10% strongly for independance, and 5% of those ready to take arms?).
It's still surprising to see, in a world where everything tends to be globalized (h...l am I not posting to people from all around the world there? :egypt: ) to see people wanting their village for "themselves"... Which means?
Based on what he's been telling me about my country, probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
EDIT: That, and crappy music videos on youtube.
What can I say about France.
According to your words these burning cars are examples of new kind of thunders :)
Anyway no Pole is talking ":daisy: Poland" like these "extremists" were doing all the time when camera was on them. Some people here yell ":daisy: government" (because there are liberals), ":daisy: president" (cause he is not liberal), ":daisy: Wisla Krakow" (football club not liked into Warsaw), ":daisy: Legia Warsaw" (another football club not liked into Krakow) - but no one ":daisy: Poland".
Things heating up alright http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7300015.stm
:sweatdrop:
The UN really needs to start using condoms. This is just pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I haven't watched the videos yet to check for myself, but I'll respond with a basic question anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia
So were you there to protest, or were you there to meet pretty girls who were AT the protest?
Protest girls! :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
And pretty girls were there to meet pretty guys who were at the protest.
Bad news
Serbs killed Ukrainian policeman and injured some Poles while UN forces retaken court into Mitrovica. Sadly Poles agreed on being lead by civilian UN idiot.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338799,00.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
“Bad news
Serbs killed Ukrainian policeman and injured some Poles while UN forces retaken court into Mitrovica. Sadly Poles agreed on being lead by civilian UN idiot.” And injured few French, thank to mention it…
Well, nothing unexpected, I guess.
A clearly stupid political decision, imposed on a majority of a country with as result, part of it becomes a minority without consent, breaking International Laws (Helsinki Agreement).
It is even bitter for this new minority, because it was explained the new majority can’t live with the former majority due the past action of the former majority, but when they become the minority all will be fine.
All evidence of from the past (in Bosnia and in Croatia) tends to prove this being wrong, and never the So-call International Community did raise one finger to protect the Serbs minority, as seen after NATO intervention and the cleaning by the Albanians of all others non-albanians populations in Kososvo, burning churches etc...
We are still waiting for the Serbs refugees to be able to go back to Croatia (before war, 10 % of the Croatian population –the same than the Albanians in Serbia, just by the way- 4 % nowadays), a proper procedure of Croatian War Criminals – not a down size indictment which will be concluded by a non-guilty verdict, as for Naser Oric, Bosnian commander of Srebrenica- responsible for a massacre near Bratunac in December 1992 in which many Serb civilians had been killed), when the “International Community” and The Hague Tribunal just did agree with what was done, killing and destroying Serbs not been seen as a crime, apparently…
So, Serbs are rightly seeing the UN Forces are occupiers…
I find quite funny to see the Albanian President and Prime Minister (oops, sorry, Kosovar) stating they will not accept a partition of the territory (based on which International law they broke?), or parallel institution (what a laugh!!!)… It was good for them but not for the Serbs.
Now I don't care about Kosovo, Serbia and Albania (but I still think Kosovo should be part of Serbia) - POLES WERE INJURED DUE TO :daisy: UN IDIOT who did not predict that everyone there have grenades.
I don't care what polish police is being recognised into Serbia but Poles are not supporting neither Albanians nor Serbs. Without polish police (with small support of french foreign legion) Serbs from Mitrovica would be very fast executed - like they killed muslims into Srebrenica. So Serbs should rather feel respect for polish police because without Poles they would be dead Serbs.Quote:
So, Serbs are rightly seeing the UN Forces are occupiers…
BTW they might have their rights but .... if they will be trying to attack Poles they might stop playing and show them who rules.
Of course all my statements about Poles refer to Ukrainians too.
They did even more because their policeman was killed.
nvm
So you don't care that the Serbs see the Poles and UN-forces as occupiers, but they should have respect for their "occupiers"?:shocked2:Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
The Poles aren't their to earn respect.:surprised:
“they killed muslims into Srebrenica”: The Serbs of Kosovo never fought in Bosnia. I see you are aware of the reality of the field.
By the way, to ignore that the Serbs (and Albanians) have weapons and hand grenades, and LAW as well, is showing a lack of contact with the local population…
“if they will be trying to attack Poles they might stop playing and show them who rules” or the Poles will shot 100 Serbs for Pole killed, like the Germans in the good old time…
The Poles take part in an Illegal Occupation. So, they should be prepared to this kind of events. Sorry for the poor guy, but, like the others, he had to pay for his government policy…:oops: