Venezuela Sends Tanks To Colombian Border

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I think Colombia is in the wrong on this one. They violated Ecuador's sovereignty. Who's against me?

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Wait - didn't you say that you supported them?

The old-school definitions of international "law" (to the extent that the term may be applied in a context without some higher controlling authority) suggest that military forces of one nation crossing the border of another nation constitutes an act of war by nation A at the expense of nation B and that such a violation is a legitimate casum bellum.

Is this the standard that should continue to apply? Why or why not?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The old-school definitions of international "law" (to the extent that the term may be applied in a context without some higher controlling authority) suggest that military forces of one nation crossing the border of another nation constitutes an act of war by nation A at the expense of nation B and that such a violation is a legitimate casum bellum.

Is this the standard that should continue to apply? Why or why not?

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I think that it is technically a cause for war. So is allowing a terrorist organization to cross the border with impunity in order to murder and kidnap civilians.

The main idea of preventative action is to avert a war. When non-state actors use a state as an umbrella to such an extent that the state defense becomes terrorist defense, we have a problem. If the state cannot control the goings on of terrorism within its borders and it begins to effect the safety of neighbors, there may be legitimate reason to make a quick and decisive action.

The problem with Ecuador and Venezuela is that they support the FARC. They use their sovereignty as an excuse to aid in the training and protection of international kidnapping murderers. They should be ashamed of themselves and expect preventative action, as should any state that harbors terrorists and makes no real attempt to eradicate them.

The U.S. stands with Colombia because we believe in this basic tenet, from Obama to Bush - like it or not.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I think that it is technically a cause for war. So is allowing a terrorist organization to cross the border with impunity in order to murder and kidnap civilians.

The main idea of preventative action is to avert a war. When non-state actors use a state as an umbrella to such an extent that the state defense becomes terrorist defense, we have a problem. If the state cannot control the goings on of terrorism within its borders and it begins to effect the safety of neighbors, there may be legitimate reason to make a quick and decisive action.

The problem with Ecuador and Venezuela is that they support the FARC. They use their sovereignty as an excuse to aid in the training and protection of international kidnapping murderers. They should be ashamed of themselves and expect preventative action, as should any state that harbors terrorists and makes no real attempt to eradicate them.

The U.S. stands with Colombia because we believe in this basic tenet, from Obama to Bush - like it or not.

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Well said. I think Chavez has become completely deranged over this incident. I'm curious to see how far he's willing to take his warmongering and what the fallout from it will be.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Let me try.

Venezuelans are commies, commies use public transportation.
Good capitalists have their own SUVs, take Texans for example.
Having your own car is an expression of your freedom(to destroy the environment, cause smog, cancer and death, basically be a darwinistic capitalist).
Venezuelans use tanks, tanks are owned by the commie government which is run by the commie public.
Therefore and because more than two people fit into tanks, tanks equal public transportation.

So basically the evil Venezuelan commie public transportation tank platoons near the border of Colombia, which uses mainly SUVs and is thus a capitalistic country of freedom and democracy and the American way, are a direct threat to world piece!
Therefore it is important to discuss the evils of the commie invention of public transportation to make sure that more people buy SUVs, stop supporting Venezuela and start buying Microsoft products to support capitalism, world piece, Texans, iraqi oil corporations(they use SUVs) and Bill Gates' american dream! :smash:
I have to go now or I'll miss my train later. ~D

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Well done! :applause:

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I think that it is technically a cause for war. So is allowing a terrorist organization to cross the border with impunity in order to murder and kidnap civilians.

The main idea of preventative action is to avert a war. When non-state actors use a state as an umbrella to such an extent that the state defense becomes terrorist defense, we have a problem. If the state cannot control the goings on of terrorism within its borders and it begins to effect the safety of neighbors, there may be legitimate reason to make a quick and decisive action.

The problem with Ecuador and Venezuela is that they support the FARC. They use their sovereignty as an excuse to aid in the training and protection of international kidnapping murderers. They should be ashamed of themselves and expect preventative action, as should any state that harbors terrorists and makes no real attempt to eradicate them.

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wouldn't the logical course of action be to secure the border to prevent FARC incursions, considering how provacative invading another country with your military is?

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The U.S. stands with Colombia because we believe in this basic tenet, from Obama to Bush - like it or not.

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that sounds rather simplistic.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

wouldn't the logical course of action be to secure the border to prevent FARC incursions, considering how provacative invading another country with your military is?

that sounds rather simplistic.

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This seems more a case of hot-pursuit, not invasion. I don't think the Turks call their incursions into Iraq an invasion, and neither has the international community.

One has to wonder why the Colombian military didn't think that calling the Ecuadorian military to intercept the FARC on their side of the border would do any good. I would suspect that they'd experienced deaf ears before.

And parking your military along your border to prevent incursions by insurgants sounds simplistic to me. If it were that easy Afghanistan would be peaceful. Not to mention that here in the US we catch flak for increasing the presence ofBorder Patrol agents on our Mexican border...imagine what Chavez would do if armed troops took up permanent station. I'm sure he'd be cool with that:dizzy2:

Even Raúl Baduell, his old defense minister and former staunch supporter, doesn't believe Chavez' reaction is proportional. Something about distracting the populice from economic woes...

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The problem with Ecuador and Venezuela is that they support the FARC. They use their sovereignty as an excuse to aid in the training and protection of international kidnapping murderers.

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Are you familiar with a well known saying involving glass houses and stones ?:inquisitive:

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They should be ashamed of themselves and expect preventative action, as should any state that harbors terrorists and makes no real attempt to eradicate them.

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You know the saying about it not being wise to throw them :yes:

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The U.S. stands with Colombia because we believe in this basic tenet, from Obama to Bush

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bollox , absolute hypocritical bollox .

BTW Tuff , have you kept up with events ?
You know the ever changing stories the Columbians have come up with to justify their action ?
Concerning the evidence they have released from the laptop ?
Can you tell me , among the countries that were in negotiations , what country that you live in was in negotiations in Equador through the Equadorian government with the negotiator who was killed .
Is the answer
Ayour country
Byour country
orCyour country

But anyway , since you are such a cheerleader for Uribe , what are your views on the protests against terrorists in Columbia yesterday ?
Are you slightly curious as to why there were huge crowds with pictures of dead/missing people and signs calling Uribe a terrorist , kidnapper and murderer ?
Or does your blind support negate any curiosity about such things ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

But anyway , since you are such a cheerleader for Uribe , what are your views on the protests against terrorists in Columbia yesterday ?
Are you slightly curious as to why there were huge crowds with pictures of dead/missing people and signs calling Uribe a terrorist , kidnapper and murderer ?
Or does your blind support negate any curiosity about such things ?

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People call Bush a terrorist and a murderer. I believe Uribe when he says that "whenever things start getting rough for the ELN and the FARC we hear their mouthpieces start talking about the governments 'human rights violations'". The international community (aside from socialists and contrarian zealots) sees him as a pretty reasonable man.

I see Uribe as an all around good Colombian President. I support the way that he is handling the crisis in his country. He is the first one that I have seen as heralding a new age in that countries history. Its easy for you and I to say that he is heavy handed - when your father wasn't murdered by drug dealing kidnappers and your government has a monopoly on force within its own terriitory.

http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia222.htm

Somehow an Irishman who contradicts everything that anyone says will have a hard time convincing me that Uribe is bad for Colombia or that he is a totalitarian despot who kills innocents in their homes. Call me crazy (as I'm sure you will).

Post some homegrown links to people who believe Uribe is a murderer and a kidnapper - I'm always open to the truth and Uribe is no Mitt Romney, so I'd consider some solid evidence.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I'd consider some solid evidence.

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You're not likely to get any. :no:

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Somehow an Irishman who contradicts everything that anyone says will have a hard time convincing me that Uribe is bad for Colombia or that he is a totalitarian despot who kills innocents in their homes.

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Tuff , the link you provided backs up everything I have said about Uribe :dizzy2:
Small list of successes , big list of failures , damning list of conclusions:idea2: Well done you make things so easy:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Post some homegrown links to people who believe Uribe is a murderer and a kidnapper

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So you didn't watch yesterdays protests then , neither have you looked at the allegations before the courts ...thats rather silly isn't it :oops:

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Its easy for you and I to say that he is heavy handed - when your father wasn't murdered by drug dealing kidnappers

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errrrr...excuse me Tuff , but what does Uribe himself say about that event and how it effects his policies?
Is it Ait has no effectr on his policies
B it has no effect on his policies
or Cit has no effect on his policies .

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You're not likely to get any.

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The thing is Xiahou , I don't need to , Tuff in his wisdom provides all the evidence needed

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Tuff , the link you provided backs up everything I have said about Uribe :dizzy2:
Small list of successes , big list of failures , damning list of conclusions:idea2: Well done you make things so easy:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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You do know its quite difficult to succed in things when you have terrorist/insurgents/guerillas running around the whole place, then you have drug lords who have a great of power for a drug lord, many supporting both sides of the conflict, then the country it self is very poor overall with many people poverty stricken (As are most 3rd world countries)

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You do know its quite difficult to succed in things when you have terrorist/insurgents/guerillas running around the whole place, then you have drug lords who have a great of power for a drug lord, many supporting both sides of the conflict, then the country it self is very poor overall with many people poverty stricken (As are most 3rd world countries)

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yes but that isn't the issue , Tuff thinks that Uribe is an all around good guy , anyone with involvement with terrorists/paramilitaries is not an all around good guy even if he does believe in the free market , went to Harvard and is an ally of the US .
Politicians are generally scummy overall , a politician with a dodgy past and continuing dodgy links is very scummy indeed .
Now Uribe doesn't get it all his own way of course , the attempted legalisation of the land theft his political allies tried was blocked .

“So is allowing a terrorist organization to cross the border with impunity in order to murder and kidnap civilians.” From when? During the War of Independence, Algerians guerrilla had shelters in Tunisia. The French Air Forces attacked one of their logistic bases and was obliged to apologise by the pressure, in others, of USA.
According to this logic, USSR would have ground to attack USA in Alaska due the US support to the future Talibans…:laugh4:
Never see the Spanish Army launching raids in France against the ETA…:inquisitive:

“The problem with Ecuador and Venezuela is that they support the FARC” Colombia says… And Iraq had WMD.

“he's willing to take his warmongering and what the fallout from it will be.” I didn’t know that Venezuelan Forces did cross the Borders of Colombia…

“This seems more a case of hot-pursuit, not invasion”: That is for police action. Not military. Then explain where and when the pursuit took place… It was a plain and organised military action… Illegal even if explainable… Colombia chooses to ignore the political price to pay, thinking rightly, that Big Brother USA will protect in case of bad mood from the others sides.

“I don't think the Turks call their incursions into Iraq an invasion, and neither has the international community.” Right in case of the Turks, wrong in case of International Community…

Breaking news, EU invades Sudan: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100098

I'm sure everyone here is just as outraged as I am.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Breaking news, EU invades Sudan: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100098

I'm sure everyone here is just as outraged as I am.

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About time I say. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Husar

About time I say. :2thumbsup:

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I agree - congratulations EU.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

yes but that isn't the issue , Tuff thinks that Uribe is an all around good guy , anyone with involvement with terrorists/paramilitaries is not an all around good guy even if he does believe in the free market , went to Harvard and is an ally of the US .
Politicians are generally scummy overall , a politician with a dodgy past and continuing dodgy links is very scummy indeed .
Now Uribe doesn't get it all his own way of course , the attempted legalisation of the land theft his political allies tried was blocked .

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Most observers can see that Uribe attacks paramilitaries AS WELL AS the FARC and drug cartels. I am not saying that Uribe has transformed his nation into heaven on earth, but I am saying that he has been a positive influence - not simplu as a counterbalance to the left in the region.

Why do you hate freedom?

You are just so wrong on so much that it's comical. EU shouldn't go into Darfur - Chavez is a good guy - Bush is a murderer - yeadayadayada

Where in Ireland are you from? I hope my ancestors stayed away from the water.

On my last visit to Ireland there was a special on TV that literally stated that the U.S. government could CAUSE HURRICANES and actually caused Katrina. It stuck with me that this was the public education they were getting. How could anyone not hate the U.S. believing that tripe?

(EDIT: I forgot, I'm supposed to use smiley's:yes: )

C'mon, don't attack him directly. Try to use a bit o' humor.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The establishment of Guinness vs. Israel

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

On my last visit to Ireland there was a special that literally stated that the U.S. government could CAUSE HURRICANES and actually caused Katrina. It stuck with me that this was the public education they were getting. How could anyone not hate the U.S. believing that tripe?

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Jaysus, Mary'n Joseph, ye mean ta say tat ain't true?

*chews his straw thoughtfully for a very long time*

Next, ye'll be tellin' me that leprechauns don't hide their pots o'gold. :no:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Jaysus, Mary'n Joseph, ye mean ta say tat ain't true?

*chews his straw thoughtfully for a very long time*

Next, ye'll be tellin' me that leprechauns don't hide their pots o'gold. :no:

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heh.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Jaysus, Mary'n Joseph, ye mean ta say tat ain't true?

*chews his straw thoughtfully for a very long time*

Next, ye'll be tellin' me that leprechauns don't hide their pots o'gold. :no:

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No, we the english are constantly attacking the rainbow fortress in eastern afghanistan in a effort to free the leprechauncns from severe beatings by the taleban where they'll be "persuaded" to give us the formula for gold making

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You are just so wrong on so much that it's comical. EU shouldn't go into Darfur - Chavez is a good guy - Bush is a murderer - yeadayadayada

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Well what a pillock , so then Tuff (forget about your fanciful uneducated uribe worship for a while ) please remind me where I have said any of that ?

You do realise its quite a good indication that your line of reasoning on a subject has fallen apart when you have to invent stuff.....
Congratulations:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

In the topic:
Did you guys see the debate in Santo Domingo?

I got bored when Chavez started to talk, I fell asleep for a second! And Chavez was talking to Cristina, like Chavez was alone with her. And ignored the others...

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

I agree with Frag . The Irish should never have gone in under the EU mandate .

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Frag doesn't want the Netherlands to go in with the EU mandate. You don't wan't Ireland to go with the EU mandate. If everyone said this about their own EU nation the EU WOULDN'T BE IN DARFUR. Who's mandate would they go under?

You arn't saying that Ireland should go alone because "they would barely be able to do a fishing expedition without international logistical support" (paraphrased poorly)

I hope that you don't mean the UN - China would block any expedition there.

I'm sure that you meant something else by that statement as I'm sure that you will let us know.

You have called Uribe a power hungry, kidnapping murderer. Yoo have also equated him with Presidnt Bush as BAD. You have made mention that our country supports terrorism from within its own borders (Israel, the U.S. Military, Colombia) and I'm sure that makes bush a murderer in your eyes (I'm looking for the exact quote).

I'm also looking for that old mega thread about Chavez.

Another one bites the dust?

http://www.eltiempo.com/justicia/200...R-3990694.html

Sorry for the Espanol.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Sorry for the Espanol.

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Bring the Spanish elsewhere, this is not the USA. :shifty:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Another one bites the dust?

http://www.eltiempo.com/justicia/200...R-3990694.html

Sorry for the Espanol.

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good

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Originally Posted by Tribesman
I agree with Frag . The Irish should never have gone in under the EU mandate .

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Wrong country Tuff , did you get confused :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: wrong civil war :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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I'm sure that you meant something else by that statement as I'm sure that you will let us know.

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your mind reading abilities are very poor , I would give up if I was you:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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You have called Uribe a power hungry, kidnapping murderer. Yoo have also equated him with Presidnt Bush as BAD. You have made mention that our country supports terrorism from within its own borders (Israel, the U.S. Military, Colombia) and I'm sure that makes bush a murderer in your eyes (I'm looking for the exact quote).

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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I'm also looking for that old mega thread about Chavez.

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Is that the one where I call him a prick or the one where I call him an idiot ?

Have you ever considered quitting while you are way behind or are you determined to persist in falling flat on your face at every stride ?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Wrong country Tuff , did you get confused :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: wrong civil war :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:



your mind reading abilities are very poor , I would give up if I was you:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


Is that the one where I call him a prick or the one where I call him an idiot ?

Have you ever considered quitting while you are way behind or are you determined to persist in falling flat on your face at every stride ?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Argh you are right on that count. My mistake.

You love Chavez though. Everybody knows it.