“You think torture and surveillance may be necessary from time to time? Are you a supporter Stalin's and Mao's ideas ?” Out dated people. G. W. Bush and his administration are your men of reference now.
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“You think torture and surveillance may be necessary from time to time? Are you a supporter Stalin's and Mao's ideas ?” Out dated people. G. W. Bush and his administration are your men of reference now.
Just red an article in a German paper. http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/nsa-af...-a-911799.html
It is citing Nicholas Kristof of the Ney York Time. If this is correct, an average per year of 23 Americans were killed in the "War against Terror" since 2005, most of them abroad. More Americans are killed by falling from ladders.
Since 2001 the USA spend 8 billion dollars for military and home defence.
30.000 Americans are killed each year by guns. That US children are killed by guns is 8 times more likely than at any other western country.
Yet, Americans (and the gun lobby) does not accept to limit the right to have guns.
So why do the Americans accept that their civil rights are massively limited? Why do they accept secret laws and courts? Why do some think that torture is acceptable in the fight against terror. Why do they think that it allows them do break the civil rights of million citizens of allied countries?
I never thought that it would be possible that the terrorists would defeat America in such an extend.
Because made-up outside scare factors have always been a good distraction from actual local problems?
The government has been pulling fast ones over our heads since 1877.
(It has been argued.)
You mean like, Russia was and still is a convenient outside scare factor that is used to distract people from local issues which are not being tackled by pointing the finger at the devil at the border?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
We have always been at war with Eastasia. The wars on X (drugs, terror, whatever) are just power grabs. No self-respecting politician would let an opportunity like 9/11 pass without trying to grab a little more, and the media did their part playing it up. For the death toll of about 3 months on US roads, we plundered the treasury, alienated our allies, and have given away our rights. People just freaked out and forgot the basic principle of American society: no one kills Americans better than other Americans, the terrorists are just amateurs.
Everyone should know when the government creates a new department you are going to suffer for it.
The DHS was a mistake from the start as was all of the reactionary legislation. It always is, no matter what the emergency.
We are perhaps marginally safer flying today than we were in 2001, but that is debatable. All they needed to do was stop box cutters from being legal to transport and to restaff airport security with US nationals rather than recent immigrants.
We then went after two repressive regimes because there was no place else to look, unless we wanted to go back to Somalia or into Sudan.
We have spent billions on hi-tech toys but no one is any safer and all of us have and are sacrificing our liberties for it.
Locking the cockpit doors is the main improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
I'd say the biggest improvement isn't legislation nor infrastructue nor hitech toys nor lockable cockpits.
It's passenger not sitting like sheep hoping someone will save them. Not only is this change the most effective, it happened the quickest. The fourth plane didnt crash where the terrorists wanted because the people fought back based on knowledge of what was happening.
Everything since then has been relatively cost ineffective in comparison.
Now, back to Snowden.
Just food for thought but:
The Espionage Act is about giving secrets to Enemy Governments with which we are at war.
All these leakers are being charged with it, does this mean the government considers its people as an enemy with which they are at war?
No - because the leaks are being released to everyone and the US is at war with Muslim Terrorists, and the leaks benefit them. The internal logic is soundQuote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Yeah, you bet. They just happen to be benefiting the US public. Government abuse covering its tracks with prosecutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
No, thank you very much, but hell no!
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
With serious terrorism, I do.
I can imagine instances where atrocities are imminent, and a lead is available if uncooperative.
I want that information.
I don't want to waterboard him because he's a bad man, I want him waterboarded because lesser methods have failed and an experienced interrogator believe it will extract the answers needed.
If a pleasant manner and a sympathetic approach gets the answer great.
If blackmailing him with sending his gay-porn to his deeply religious father gets the results brilliant.
If physical harm is considered to be ineffective given the chaps character, absolutely don't do it.
I'm not american, I don't have a dog in the legacy of independence race.