I don't think ISIS will stop as long as they continue to get recruits and volunteers, and unless they reach their ultimate goal. They have an ambitious goal, which isn't limited to Iraq.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
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I don't think ISIS will stop as long as they continue to get recruits and volunteers, and unless they reach their ultimate goal. They have an ambitious goal, which isn't limited to Iraq.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
War won't stop because both sides want peace. As long as the kurds maintain a rigid border that isis can't push any further, then throwing more solders only hurts them. Eventually they will regroup and attack again but even religious fanatics will eventually ask themselves if resources are better spent somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
This rests on the assumption that isis will be allowed to exist as some sort of a quasi state. I don't think that will be the case as neither Iraq nor Syria would be content to maintain the status quo, and our air power will considerably worsen the situation for isis.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Infrastructure, logistics, money. Without these ISIS is a noisy annoyance. Attacking these is what pruned back al queada, it will be the tool that works here too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
I think it's due to a failure of the locals to understand the scale of America.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Lin Laden made the same mistake with 9/11.
Short of massive nuclear bombardment you can't cripple the US - and if you can't cripple the US, it will hit back.
It's ironic, given how hard the Islamic fighters go at it, that they think we can do so much less with so much more.
Have you seen the map that ISIS used to show how far they plan on expanding? I'm not lying. They plan on expanding to western China. My Chinese friend told me that it was on the news in China. I'm not saying that ISIS is able to. I'm just explaining how peace is not in their minds for now. And being in a war with China means war for a long long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
And I wonder what will happen if ISIS does terrorist acts on American land? Would the US send soldiers to Iraq and Syria?
Why not, the guy who did it is someone with culture from London by the way. You just got to respect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
oh oh ohhhhh, what did you haul in. Why don't people understand that what IS is doing is what their holy book tells them they should be doing.
Just more obviously so. Islam is a vile ideoligy, get over it lefties and other multiculti-curious, it's what it is and nothing else.
Syria isn't even sure what Syria will be yet, thanks to our politicking. Assad wouldn't be too happy with a strong ISIS, and were he in a stronger position he'd probably want to intervene in Iraq. But we haven't yet decided if we're going to let him live, let alone let him meddle abroad.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Back when we were about to smite Assad, ISIS was not a threat it is now. Situation on the ground has changed considerably, so we have to adjust our strategy. I'll take one hundred Assads over ISIS any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
I can agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I remember us talking about Assad and your stance was quite different. Ah, we live and learn.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Unless we put boots on the ground, they will exist. You can't win the war with just bombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Even if they never stop attacking, there is always a point when the strength of the two forces are in equilibrium and that point is where the border is drawn. As long as the border remains stable, people on either side of the border will continue to live as they always have just as US citizens go about their days without giving much thought that we have been at war for over 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Your point is moot. What he said was tasteless, end of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Kurdish Peshmerga fighters are our boots on the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
They will not and can not push through all the way into syria.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
They can, they will and they already do. YPG is the Syrian Kurdish group that does well against ISIS.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
It's not just a matter of logistics (which I doubt is sustainable for them) but also of politics. Iraq, Turkey and Syria all leave the kurds well enough alone for the most part. But letting the Kurds take all the glory of battle and capture ISIS land forces a situation where they have the clout to push for an fully independent kurdistan in both Iraq and possibly Syria as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Believe me, I want nothing more than for Kurds to wipe out ISIS with US support and be able to finally live in peace under self determination. I have said already I support a multi state solution in the area. I just don't see it happening. You see where I am coming from?
Turkey is now an active supporter and promoter of Iraqi Kurdistan. They reason that Iraqi Kurds are openly discussing their independence today as opposed to ten years ago is due to Turkey withdrawing its objections. Iraqi Kurdistan is already de-facto independent and within a span of a few months it will be de-jure independent as well. Turkey has no problem with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
I think you are making judgements based on obsolete information. Things have changed considerably in the last 12 months.Quote:
Believe me, I want nothing more than for Kurds to wipe out ISIS with US support and be able to finally live in peace under self determination. I just don't see it happening. You see where I am coming from?
Possibly, I don't really follow the situation that closely other than a daily news article. Didn't know that about Turkey, glad to hear they have changed their tune.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Is Turkey hoping their Kurds will move to Iraq?
Best case scenario Kurds in Turkey are integrated into society in Turkey. Everyone is happy.
Bordering them is Syria-Kurdistan region/state/country and bordering them is Iraq-Kurdistan region/state/country.
Hopefully Kurds in turn treat their minorities well and the dialogue begins with the Turkish Kurds forming a bridge between Turkey and the other Kurdish regions.
Yeah, cutting of a head is haut culture. The guy got allahu-hakbarred, basta.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
What keeps amazing me is how docile allahu-hakbarred victims are. You are going to die anyway so I would put up as much as a fight as possible
Do you have something to back that up? I find it highly improbable that Turkey would be supporting independent Kurdistan due to their own Kurdish minority, which will most likely want a piece of Turkey. Hoping that their Kurds will just move to the new state on their own seems naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Total depressedQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Tortured to the point that this is a preferred option
Extreme version of Stockholm syndrome
Medicated
And the ones who don't go quietly don't have videos released either.
Saw a beheading of a guy, it looked almost intimate. The beheader very gently pulled up the ear, and started cutting. Was pretty quik, 4 seconds or so. No protest, no screaming. Maybe indeed medicated. Freaky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Speaking of Kurdish fighters, where is our resident Kurd?
Busy sending me PM's like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by rajpoot
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurdishSpartakus
Same old, same old...
Got him on facebook, he got a permaban supposedly
From here or from facebook?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Here, is what he says at least, could also just be the cooldown. Never saw something overly offensive really, just too many links to make a thread work
I'm afraid that they can be a threat with terrorist strikes beyond their border. Think of how many different nationalities joined them. I'm pretty sure that they have more followers where those nationalities came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Just to make you feel better, an overwhelming majority of the Dutch muslims (74%) thinks dutch muslims who pack up to fight are heroes. Can be be nuanced I suppose, as the questions asked are more about fighting against Assad rather than fighting for IS. But they can't have missed what IS actually does. Smileys are flying all over the internet about the beheaded journalist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Sometimes you just have to question if islam is really an enrichment to our culture as lefties will furiously scream if you say it wasn't the greatest idea in the world and surroundings to import islam.
It's been discussed quite intensively over the past few months. I'm quite honestly surprised that this is news to you. Here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
well at least the Mexican cartels will no longer corner the market on beheading videos. competition spurs creativity, lower prices and a better free market
For now it's still not too late to crush it in Europe, although France seems to be rapidly approaching the point of no return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Well, you seem to have utterly missed what they do. They're not just one of the smallest rebel groups; they spend most of their time fighting against other Syrian rebel groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Supporting Syrian rebels =/= supporting ISIS
That is not to say that a worrying percentage of ISIS is European-born, the point is that you can't translate support for the syrian groups into any kind of support for ISIS.
I know that not all of the Muslims are dangerous to society. But from what I can tell from the news, I believe that there are a significant number in Western Europe who could cause problems even when being in the minority.
That's what I said no, that it can be nuanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Not all Christians are a danger to society, but there are a significant number who could cause problems even when being in the minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
"Nuanced" is an understatement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You haven't even read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
If you want to deny the reality of how muslims who live in peace here actually think, go ahead. Doesn't make these 74% terrorists mind you.
I work with what you give me. You said 74% of the dutch muslim population supported Syrian rebels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
This in no way equates to any type of support for ISIL.
It's like making a poll on attitudes towards the USSR and claiming it shows support for Australia.
But that's exactly what I pointed out myselfQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Edit: my words; Just to make you feel better, an overwhelming majority of the Dutch muslims (74%) thinks dutch muslims who pack up to fight are heroes. Can be be nuanced I suppose, as the questions asked are more about fighting against Assad rather than fighting for IS. But they can't have missed what IS actually does. Smileys are flying all over the internet about the beheaded journalist.
Those rebels are also fighting against IS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
So, to say that 74% of the dutch muslim populations applauds those fighting IS is an equally accurate conclusion. You should be rejoicing.
Except that IS in the Syrian context is also a rebel group.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
It's a rebel group fighting the other rebel groups more than they fight Assad.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Wonderful bunch, aren't they?
How can you not see that I absolutily get that, I relativate the numbers myselfQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
You imply otherwise.
You could have made the argument that 74% of dutch muslims oppose Assad, but you drew a rather different conclusion, mixing in ISIS without any justification.
True, but these guys don't join the Assadoposers, the free Syryan army doesn't want them, they join IS, European homegrown jihadi's. We got a problem, these are just the really determined.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
He is not perma-banned from the forums, he ended up with a time-out from the Backroom due to some antics he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Not all Atheists are a danger to society, but... Stalin.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Sorry, I'm eating dinner and therefore lazy.
Yeah, I also got them...
Someone should just text him to let him know he is totally let back in.
Won't be me though.
Well, this was basically my point, PVC ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Ioseb Besarionis Dze Jugashvili attended an Orthodox priesthood school and later the Tbilisi Spiritual Seminary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Are you trying to say that Stalin was a christian....??Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
COMRADES, BURN THIS HERETIC
Hah, no. I realised it came across like that after you replied. I was more suggesting that Christianity would have played a big impact in his life, so it isn't a case of blank-slate atheism with no spiritual influence in the slightest. Raised from a strong religious environment myself, I am aware of how this would have affected him and shaped him as a person.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Unfortunately, he picked up the wrong lessons, seeing the churches influence on control and how to replicate it opposed to seeing the wrongs then overcoming them. He is an egomaniac afterall.
In many ways, I think he simply converted his faith into a new framework.
Stalin was raised in Tsarist Russia, a religious country like most of Europe at the time. However, like most of Europe, Tsarist Russia had pockets of radicalism. Most of these pockets were not pure, but roughly 50/50 religious/radical. Stalin grew up in one such pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
If anything, Stalins childhood was shaped by the tensions created between conservatives and radicals. He ultimately fell down on the radical side. That he went to a seminary isn't very important; educational choices were largely determined by the father of the household, who sent their kids off somewhere.
Lenin didn't really want to become a lawyer either.
Interesting you raise that. He was kicked out of his household for attending against his fathers wishes, because his mother encouraged him too. He could have experienced the divide as you stated it within his own household. His father being an alcoholic could have played in his dominant streak and the initial signing up could have been his wish, seeing the 'faithless' father being as abusive as he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
In one of Allies' conferences, Stalin said to the rest of the leaders, that he has become a conservative, reasoning his unwillingness to openly support communist movements outside Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I supposed he meant a conservative between communists.
If the Kurds become "our" (USA or NATO or Europe) boots on the ground in this conflict -- and by that I mean taking the fight to ISIS and pushing them from Iraq etc. -- the Kurds have one well known price. Like many, I have received some PM missives from our Kurdish voice -- have any of you detected a lessening of his desire from an independent Kurdish homeland? I haven't
You can do what we Brits did and promise them what they want, only to offer the land to an outside people as a romantic gesture just after the war is won. A Clinton declaration could declare that Iraq is to be the Babylonian homeland. Then you should stick around for a few decades while everyone fights everyone else, until you call it quits and leave, with a legacy of absolutely everyone in the region hating your guts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
The ISIS want martyrdom, paradise and 72 virgins. We can promise to arrange the martyrdom part. Kurds already have their independence within their grasp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
On the Syrian front, I think it is interesting that some voices within the British establishment have come full circle, and suggestions have been made to support Assad against the rebels.
Former head of the Army Lord Dannatt and ex-Foreign Secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkind were the two that called for this, but the government doesn't look like backing it. Not yet anyway.
He referred to his rejection of Trotskijs permanent revolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crandar
It has nothing to do with 'conservatism' as a non-marxist knows the term.
We have managed to enact such a legacy without the efforts of a Balfour or a Lawrence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
What do they say? Color me interestedQuote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
With a bonus "German" imaginary friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Must be the antics Tiaexz hinted at. Nothing but respect for the moderators for not giving a perma-ban. I don't mind sympatising with the nazi's all that much, I just think it's stupid. Freedom of speech should only be limited to calling for violence imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Respect for our moderaters =+1
That is because they recognise ISIS as a bigger threat to general security than Assad. Perhaps they have also learnt that a secular strongman, however unpleasant, is better than the religious nutters.
As JFK almost said, "Wir sind ein Hamburger!"Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
It looks like the same has happened in Libya, with us removing a secular sob, followed by religiosi moving into the vacuum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyspy
It's the rule of these secular dictators that have been enabling the islamists to be seen as decent alternatives. If Syria's secular dictatorship survives, with or without Assad, we risk seeing the islamist threat repeat every x years.
A secular dictator is not likely to be a part of a lasting stable solution anywhere in the islamic world, whether they are nutty colonels or grey-eyed suit wearers.
I remember when I thought it was cool to have a Kurd point of view... But then I moved back to Sweden, and I just have to get into a cab or go buy pizza.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
As a sidenote: The Kurds in Sweden have totally got monopoly on the suburb pizza market... Maybe I wouldn't be so racist if it was actually Italians. I blame crappy pizza with a compelled political rant as side order.
So you reckon we should be paying for them to undergo the transitioning process. I'd rather we keep out of it until they sort out a liberal-ish democracy for themselves. The end results are more stable, we get less of the fall-out, and we save money. Better all-round for us, except we don't get to feel good about how pro-freedom we are. Having seen what that entails, I can do without that sense of satisfaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking
Thinking about it, have we yet seen a dictatorship that we've overthrown, that has gone through the religiosi stage, and successfully transitioned into a liberal democracy friendly to us?
“Thinking about it, have we yet seen a dictatorship that we've overthrown, that has gone through the religiosi stage, and successfully transitioned into a liberal democracy friendly to us?” It might happen. But first, we have to stop to help dictators to kill/torture or train their security troops to kill/torture opponents under the pretext they are/were communists each time they ask for better wages and human rights.
Throughout the Islamic world, their fundamentalists are often the first organized component to emerge from a chaotic situation. They have a clear ideology, a ready-made framework for governance, and credibility with those who take their religion seriously. It is little wonder they are often first off the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Our failure to accurately account for this, despite repeated lessons, does annoy me.
Most of us in the Western world tend to confuse who the real bad guys are when not knowing the situation and the language enough. On the outside, the rebellions look like people with more similar views as us rebelling against a dictatorship. People who haven't traveled outside the Western world tend to generalize about the world outside the Western world. Maybe some of the rebels were seeking a more tolerant and democratic future, but it's apparent that they're unable to stop the extremist ones. Sadly, the people who seek a more peaceful and tolerant life in certain places of the Middle East are not powerful enough to defend themselves. We need to stand back and look carefully before we decide to intervene because we clearly didn't see the whole picture. Otherwise, we could end up helping the people who would harm us, and lose the people who were actually preventing those harmful people from becoming more powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
I prefer Saddam, Qaddafi and Assad to the Islamist nutters that have replaced them or are threatening to replace them. They were/are at least reasonably predictable and limited in their scope, and certainly so from a western perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Those extremists make the dictators look sane in comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
The revolution devours its own, nothing new here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan
Revolutions tend to fail spectacularly, but that's no reason not to have them. I'd say that the most influential and important revolution in Europe was 1848, but none of those revolutions ended in anythign other than bloodshed and renewed oppression.
The arabian revolution may end in little other than bloodshed and renewed oppression, but that doesn't mean it's a negative.
Cooldown time. IS is already done for, they aren't there to stay. They are just incredibly cruel.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Their cruelty is their weakness.