Congratulations on your election, Consul Aemilius. I must admit that I am a little worried about your intention to get us into a two-front war on purpose. I hope you are cautious in conducting your planned war in Gaul. I wish you luck.
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Congratulations on your election, Consul Aemilius. I must admit that I am a little worried about your intention to get us into a two-front war on purpose. I hope you are cautious in conducting your planned war in Gaul. I wish you luck.
It is with a heavy heart that I congratulate Senator Lucius Aemilius on his election. I will not pretend that I am now in favor of war with Gaul, but I will not shrink from duty. Rome has voiced its opinion and has cried out for war. As a loyal Roman, I consider it my duty to defend the Republic anywhere it is threatened and under any circumstances. If Senator Aemilius believes that I would be of any use at the front, I would serve readily and without question.
On another note, while I am humbled by his suggestion that I stand as Senate Historian, I fear that it may be too large a task to accomplish to my satisfaction. In such affairs, I tend to be rather... elaborate... and can find myself absorbed in all aspects of the endeavor for hours at a time. While this is enjoyable for me, my dear wife finds my distractions irksome and she can make life rather difficult for me when I neglect her interests. As such, I feel it is in my own best interests (and longevity) to decline this offer.
I willing to stand as the Senate historian, should the republic require my services.
Members of the senate,
One year of my consulship has passed, and I bring you my preliminary report while I await the outcome of the battle of senator Publius Laevinius who is raiding Melite.
[QUINTUS]: First Consul Aemilius, we are honoured to receive such an early report of your progress. I am particularly grateful that you have been able to give Legate Laevinus a taste of battle, as I know my inability to satisfy him in that regard was a source of much frustration to him. I wish him every good fortune in his expedition.
I would like to clarify one point in your report, however, where you speak of setting taxes high where possible. Can I confirm that the taxes are not so high that they prevent any population growth?
Senators,
The question of our attacking Gaul is moot, as they have invaded our territory, marching on Arminium and I have ordered offensive action to be taken in accordance with senate motion #13 of their second session. Thus we are now at war with Gaul !
I have prepared an emergency report which describes the current situation and my actions thus far. I hope I can count on your full support now our nation faces another enemy.
Hail Rome !
I see I've forgotten to answer our consul Quintus. The city growth is not decreasing anywhere but Messana, which cannot be helped unfortunately. I have instructed all our cities that this administration has a 'Financial build policy'.
Consul Lucius Amelius, I thank you for moving me to the academy. I shall be making offerings to the Gods for victory over those Barbarians who would dare to threaten Rome!
[QUINTUS]: First Consul Aemilius, war with Gaul was inevitable. We are fortunate to have elected a man who recognised that and so is now in a position to better respond to the present crisis.
First Consul, the Senate stands behind you. All Roma holds her breath and awaits news of our fortunes.
Consul,
I wish you good luck with your comming battles against the barbarians !
I'm sure you're the right man for the job, and as we have the best soldiers in the known world, I daresay it will all be over soon !
On a side note, I'd glady fight beside my fellow Romans against the barbarians, it would be good for my battle field experience I'd say.
:balloon2:
First Consul,
Firstly congratulations on your election, tis a sore shame that it is into a state of war that you have been elected.
I can assure you though that the Senate is wholely behind you and I ask that you pursue the Gauls with utmost venom once you have repelled them from Arminium.
Strike hard once you have defeated their great horde before they can reorganise.
Perhaps you would deem it that you may require my assistance in scouting ahead of your armies? I am currently seeking "malcontents" at Lilybaeum.
Your servant and Senator,
Decius Curtius
Your kind words and your helpful intentions are appreciated. The unrest is now under control in Lilybaeum and you are moving towards Cispine Gaul, where your collegae Quintis Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief) is already providing me with valuable inside intelligence while I lay siege to Patavium.
Senators, if I may offer my views on the Gallic armies.
They seem numerous, yes, but that is the only thing they have going for them. They can easily buckle when faced with a proper legion. However, words of caution: The farther away from Roma, the fiercer they become. If we are to ultimately expand into the rest of the Gallic territories, I would bring heavy forces. They know their lands well, and you can expect an ambush.
Consul Aemilius, I believe I never congratulated your victory over the other Senators. For that, you have my apologies and my belated congratulations. Secondly, I have given you the gates of Patavium. If you do not find this sufficient, I suggest that you hurry up and finish the siege engines, for I cannot also make holes in the wall.
A grim, sober mood has set into the residents of Patavium. This worries me, because it is much easier to fool a drunken Gaul than a sober, suspicious one. I beg of you Consul, take this settlement poste-haste.
I apologise for my inactiveness during the crucial time of voting, my colleagues, as my tutor at the academy has forced me to work until late hours so that I may learn much more before I am to come of age.
I would like to congratulate senator Aemilius for his appointment to first consul, and may the gods be with him.
Conscript Fathers, a son!! I have a son!!
This is a joyous event, tempered only slightly by the fact that I have not been on the battlefield as my father and Consul Aemelius routed the trouser-wearing barbarians!
Excuse me Conscript Fathers, I have more offerings to give to the gods who have blessed me so mightily.
Honoured senators,
I have prepared my intermediate report for your review. I would like to ask the senate speaker to open this meeting. My view of our current situation is included in the report. I would like to start this meeting by proposing two motions.
MOTION #1 : We should improve our strategic postion by also capturing Massila, as it is more easily defended than Jenuensis. This in addition to the conquest of Cispine Gaul and the Cartheginian islands.
I have the active support of legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) for this motion.
The following motion has already been retracted !
MOTION #2 : We should launch an expedition to capture the Cartheginian colonies in Spain, when the acting consul judges our resources adequate to outfit such an expedition.
I hope the senators are satisfied with my leadership thus far.
Your humble servant,
Legate Lucius Aemilius (acting first consul).
Edit : savegame 273-sum-jen.zip (the name is incorrect as it is autumn 273 BC)
Consul Aemilius, it appears my support in you was well-placed. I offer my congratulations on your triumphant conquest of Cispine Gaul.
I also congratulate Amulius Coruncanius on his newborn infant.
It seems Rome has much to celebrate today! :ave:
Consul Aemilius has managed the armies of the Republic admirably, but is there no end to his greed? Need I remind the Consul of his own words when he said that after Cisalpine Gaul was conquered:
"I will cease expansion, as we will be overstretching ourselves already by then. . . I will also endeavour to make peace with the Gauls after my strategic objectives have been reached, but I will not resume trade with them as this has been forbidden by this house."
Yet despite his campaign "promises" he now proposes to take all of the Iberian coast! As he has reported, our seasonal income has been halved during only the first half of his term, and our fleets and Legions are nowhere near strong enough to make an expedition to Iberia without making our home territories vulnerable to attack. Yet the Consul proposes to continue strengthening our forces at the expense of economic investment to add even more under-developed provinces to our domain. Not only is he ignoring his own campaign promises, he will bankrupt us!
Glory on the battlefield does not make a man immune from responsible governance. I warn Consul Aemilius that if he does not abide by his own words, if he does halt his conquests where he said he would, if he does not concentrate on developing our now severely over-extended territory as he also said he would, then there will be consequences.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Now that we have received the First Consul's mid-term report, I declare the interim session of the Senate open. The deadline for proposing motions is 6pm UK time Tuesday. Voting will then be open for one day, closing 6pm UK time Wednesday.
I remind Senators that for a motion to be put to a vote, there must be TWO named seconders.
Motion 3: The Consul must refrain from expansion beyond the Alps, with the exception of Massilia which may be taken if Motion 1 passes. The Consul must devote the remainder of his term to strengthening our economic and military infrastructure. This motion does not limit the taking of Corsica and Sardinia.
I can see how my report might lead tribune Augustus Verginius (TinCow) to draw these conslusions. I was attempting to show the senate the various possibilities that are now open to us in more detail. However, the crital lines in my report are :
As I limited myself to the amount of conquest I will go no further without senate approval...I would advise a defensive strategy and focus on our finances instead.
However, in order not to give the appearance of defying the will of the senate, I will withdraw motion #2. However, legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) was so persuasive in his arguments to me, I will let motion #1 stand. I invite the legate to explain his arguments in detail to the senate, as his words were the ones that persuaded me. I will also second motion #3. I might also give note to the possibility that Gaul may agree to a ceasefire once Cispine Gaul has been conquered. As we need every denarii we can get I will propose a new motion #2 :
Motion #2 : If the Gauls agree to a ceasefire after Cispine Gaul has been conquered, we will attempt to resume trade with them.
I see I misunderstood the Consul's intentions and for that I humbly apologize. I too feel that the advantages of Massilia are plain to see to all eyes and I believe that this particular conquest will make our territory more secure, rather than more exposed. It was for this reason that I included the Motion 1 exception in my proposal and unless convincing argument is otherwise put forward, it is my intention to vote in favor of it as well.
I think if we leave Jenuensis in Gallic hands it will come back to bite us. Once we take both cities the Gauls will be hurt, and we will have an extremely defendable border. Likewise with the Carthaginians when we take Corsica and Sardinia.
At this point, knowing that we are safe from all sides I advise that we conquer no further and focus on economic development. Hence, I propose the following.
Motion 4: Once the following places are taken: Jenuensis, Masilla, Corsica, and Sardinia, the Consul is prohibited from expanding any further unless given permission by the Senate.
I will Second Motion 1, since I do not care in what order these settlements are taken, so long as they are taken.
Senator Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief),
Your proposed motion 4 overlaps with earlier motions and proposed motions. The senate has already voted to take Cispine Gaul (of which we still need to conquer Jenuensis and Mediolanium) and proposed motion 1 covers the conquest of Masilla. The senate has also already voted to take Corsica and Sardinia. Therefore I humbly request you to retract your motion.
Consul Aemilius,
By the wording of Motion 1 it seemed to me that you would leave Jenuensis in Gallic hands. I apologize if it was misread. If you could amend it to state the Jenuensis would be captured in due time, I shall retract my motion. :bow:
Since it seems that the majority of the senators can see plainly the extraordinary defensive benefits of taking the town of Masilia I will not waste your time speaking on matters you already know. If any senators remain skeptical or do not understand then I will gladly show to them exactly why it would be tremendously in our benefit to take Masilia.
I agree however that expansion must cease once these few objectives are taken. It is again time to consolidate our new holdings and prepare to sally forth once again when we find our financial situation stronger.
I see what you mean and I have rephrased motion 1 accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief
Motion 4 is retracted.
Motion 3 is also seconded.
[QUINTUS]: I second the revised motion 2 (trade with Gaul), however, it requires an additional seconder. Indeed, if we seek a ceasefire with Gaul, offering trade rights may be a useful inducement for them to accept.
In addition, Senators, it is clear that the seizure of Cisalpine Gaul will leave us at a crossroads in terms of further expansion. The next First Consul will have to decide where our immediate ambitions should lie, if he is not content to merely rest on his laurels. Do we go west, to Spain? East to Greece? Or south to Carthage? To this end, I propose:
Motion #4: The First Consul will send out three spies to assess enemy defences in the following regions:
(1) Carthaginian settlements in Spain (and Gaulish settlements en route to there)
(2) Greek and Macedonian defences in their homelands (and Illyrian settlements en rout there)
(3) Carthaginian holdings in Africa.
Only when we have good intelligence on the above areas will the Senate be able to make an informed assessment of its next move.
Do I have two seconders for this motion?
I second Motion 4 though I must say that I vehemently oppose Motion 2. Have you all forgotten so easily the horrors that the Gauls have inflicted upon us in the past? What has changed since our previous declaration to deny trade with those unwashed devils? Have our successes against them made them less smelly? Do they now wear togas? I am confused Senators, are we so concerned with money that we will whore the Republic out to animals?
Motion 4 is also seconded. If I did not I could hardly call myself a spy.
As for Motion 2, I second it only because I wish to hear further debate on it. I must admit I am on the fence- surely the Gauls will realize the folly of trying to attack our well-defended northern settlements. At the same time, it means they could bide their time and make a coordinated assault on multiple settlements.
I do not think we should cease talking about Motion 2 just yet.
I'll send motion 4, but it will mean great risk to one of our ships to attempt the crossing to Afrika. It will need to be a bold man to go on this venture. Stll, the intelligence would be worth it. I do not share the harsh feelings of Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) on the issue of the Gauls. I was impressed by their courage on the field of battle. One day, when they are properly submitted, they might provide valuable auxilia forces for our legions. I would also like to draw attention to the fact that Sextius Antio (Ignoramus) has volunteered for the position of Senate Historian. What exactly is his function ? Perhaps the senator himself has some ideas to bring forward on this issue,
Courage on the field of battle? Did the display of Roman courage at Allia restrain Brennus from burning Rome and slaughtering thousands of innocents? Yes, they may well make valuable auxilia if properly trained, as one would tame a wolf. Yet does the taming of one wolf make the wild ones any less dangerous? There is only one proper trade to be made with Gauls: Roman steel for barbarian blood. "Vae victis" indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds
I duly propose Motion #5.
MOTION #5: Expansion shall cease indefinitely after taking Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia, until the Senate consents to futher conquests.
Do I have any seconders for this motion?
Sounds a bit like deja vu (I have no idea where that word comes from, it sounds somewhat Gallic/Latin) to me, Senator Antio. It seems very much like my retracted Motion 4.
Do you wish to propose that motion for yourself?
Yes, I did not see your earlier motion, but I think it is necessary to place limit's on the consul's power.
[QUINTUS]: I must oppose Senator Antio's proposed motion (I believe it should be numbered motion #5). The Senate's authority is required for declarations of war. But where we are already at war, it seems folly to tie the First Consul's ability to fight that war and ability to take it to our enemies. If we speak only of the second half of this First Consul's term, the motion may not be too objectionable. The present First Consul has already indicated no wish for further expansion.
But the motion does not speak only of this First Consul but seeks to tie down further First Consuls. These seems a step too far.
Senators, we have three powerful enemies. We must decide - do we wish to make peace with them? to conquer them? or to engage in endless wars of attrition? So far, I am content to leave Carthage and Greece be. The separation of them from us by the sea has prevented renewable of active hostilities. Were they to land on our soil again, however, I would review that opinion and consider a decisive strike on their home land. But for now, and while our fleet cannot rival theirs, I am content to wait.
Gaul is another proposition, however. Quite frankly, I do not see the wisdom of halting at Massila in the medium term. If they come to terms, it may be acceptable. But if not, the Gauls will throw army after army at us. Then it will be a foolish Senate that stands content to let the Gauls raise more men, season after season, to kill ours.
Consul Aemilius, I am quite distrubed to find out that you have ordered my two priests to follow you instead. Priests are guided by the gods; had you been deemed worthy by the gods, I'm sure some priests would have offered their services to you. By giving orders to those priests, I think you have done something reserved for the gods, and in the process far exceeded your authority. My chirurgeon you may keep, but give me back my priests!
Greetings, senators! :ave:
I am pleased to note that in my time during the academy, you have come to your senses and decided to halt expansion and consolidate.
I would like to second the motion proposed by senator Antio, as it will allow us time to build up so that we may increase our armies to repel any threat to our borders.
Mtion #6: I would also like to propose an alliance with the Selucids, who may aid us against the arrogant Greeks in Ionia. An alliance with the most powerful of the Diadochi will surely cause any potential enemies to shake in fear, as the Selucids can crush any empire in the Aegan when combined with our mighty Roman arms.
I second Motion #6.
I also second Motion #6.
As for the current discussions. Whilst I do not think we should trek further North into Gaul heartlands, this is not because of any “love” or “respect” for the Gallic peoples. It is merely a practical consideration.
Their lands stretch far North to the seas and will expand our Republics borders un-necessarily and for little gain. The lands are no very profitable and I believe the other barbarians peoples beyond the Alps will cause us much military and financial problems should we venture further at this time.
I firmly believe that now is the time to consider the greater enemy of Carthage again. I agree with the First Consuls tactical reasoning and his need to capture all of Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia but also we must not limit him unduly.
I remind the Senate that we have a standing Motion from the previous Senate Session regarding defending against invaders into our Republic, perhaps a rewording of Motion #5 is in order?
If Motion #5 contained the words “within this current Consuls leadership” – thus those of the Senate who wish to limit this current First Consuls expansion against the Gauls or even the Iberians will do so but hence will not limit the Consular incumbents following him.
The Motion from our previous session ensures that should the Gauls attempt an incursion into Cisapline Gaul or against Massilia, he is free to pursue them with all vigour and ensure they do not try such a folly again.
It is my assumption that previous Motions carry on, if they are not “completed”.
Now to Carthage. The current Consuls plans are sound and I support his plans to strike at the remaining islands held by them, however, I also agree with his report that our navy is by now means strong enough to support longer range liberation.
Hence, I feel that the Carthage holdings in Iberia AND Afrika are still beyond the Republics reach at this time. We must continue to build our infrastructure and move to a more advanced and larger navy otherwise any such ventures will be doomed. We must consider the supply issues involved, the sea distances are large to Iberia and whilst they are short to Afrika the enemies navy is too strong for us to ensure resupply of any Cohort.
I am willing to be part of the fact finding missions as proposed in Motion #4, and I am also willing to set forth to any of those missions should the Motion be passed. Yes, I am willing to pit my linguistic and subterfuge skills even in Afrika.
I am confused why the Illyrians refuse an alliance with us? We have common enemies and no plans on their lands….this I find odd and unsettling. The job I am in leads me to suspect much, with this I can only believe they plan evil against our Republic.
[QUINTUS]: Senators, I must caution against making any alliances with a faction that we are destined to destroy. Both Spain and Seleucia fall into that category. Such alliances are doomed to be broken and if we are the transgressors, our standing among nations will be much reduced.
I am particularly concerned about Seleucia - it is a great power and it is conceivable that it may come close to dominating the region (obtaining 50 provinces). If such a risk appeared real and imminent, we would be compelled to launch a spoiling expedition to prevent it, ruining our good name. I would prefer that we retained our freedom of maneouvre.
Indeed, I wonder if we need rivals as allies at all. Perhaps the only alliances we need are those such as we have made with the Italian states and now with Cisalpine Gaul, whereby our allies accept our leadership and predominance.
My esteemed colleague Quintus, the Selucids are in no position to gain world domination as of now! Look at their borders: the rich Ptolemaics to their south are not on amicable terms with them, and when the Selucids turn their eyes on the Ptolemies, there is no doubt that their current "allies", the Bactrians, Armenians, Parthians and Pontics, will go to war with them, each with a desire to carve out a great empire of their own. Our concern is their assistance against the Greeks. If they help us, the Macedonians will no doubt turn on them. If they do not help, we have every excuse to attack them, as they will not have fulfilled their treaty obligations.
Anyhow, my friends, by the time Rome is strong enough to even consider launching an attack on the Selucids, we will be strong enough to do whatever we wish, regardless of our neighbours.
The following motions proposals are active :
Motion #1 : We should improve our strategic postion by also capturing Massila, as it is more easily defended than Jenuensis. This in addition to the conquest of Cispine Gaul and the Cartheginian islands.
Proposed by Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Seconders : Publius Laevinus (Shifty157), Augustus Verginus (TinCow), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)
Motion #2 : If the Gauls agree to a ceasefire after Cispine Gaul has been conquered, we will attempt to resume trade with them.
Proposed by Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Seconders : Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)
Motion #3: The Consul must refrain from expansion beyond the Alps, with the exception of Massilia which may be taken if Motion 1 passes. The Consul must devote the remainder of his term to strengthening our economic and military infrastructure. This motion does not limit the taking of Corsica and Sardinia
Proposed by Augustus Verginus (TinCow)
Seconders : Lucius Aemilius (DDW), Publius Laevinus (Shifty157), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)
Motion #4: The First Consul will send out three spies to assess enemy defences in the following regions:
(1) Carthaginian settlements in Spain (and Gaulish settlements en route to there)
(2) Greek and Macedonian defences in their homelands (and Illyrian settlements en rout there)
(3) Carthaginian holdings in Africa.
Proposed by Quintus (econ21)
Seconders : Augustus Verginus (TinCow), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief), Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Motion #5: Expansion shall cease indefinitely after taking Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia, until the Senate consents to futher conquests.
Proposed by Sextus Antio (Ignoramus)
Seconders : Decius Laevinus (Tiberius)
Motion #6: I would also like to propose an alliance with the Selucids, who may aid us against the arrogant Greeks in Ionia. An alliance with the most powerful of the Diadochi will surely cause any potential enemies to shake in fear, as the Selucids can crush any empire in the Aegan when combined with our mighty Roman arms.
Proposed by Decius Laevinus (Tiberius)
Seconders : Sextus Antio (Ignoramus), Decius Curtius (Braden)
Motion #2 and Motion #5 need one more seconder to be accepted for voting. The other proposed motions are accepted for voting. Senator Decius Curtius (Braden) has proposed a rephrasing of Motion #5. He has also bravely volunteered for the very risky mission of assessing enemy defenses in Carthage in Africa.
On the matter of alliances I will propose the following motion :
Motion #7 : We will strive to make alliances with all the nations not on our blacklist, i.e. not Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul or Numidia unless explicitly specified in an a motion by the senate.
Out of character :
This will greatly simplify the work of the first consul and speed up his work. I must say I find it strange, and probably an oversight, that Illirya is not mentioned in the blacklist. I suggest we just add it without further ado.
Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) is very perceptive in noticing that I have been swapping ancilliaries. I needed them for the assault on Lugotorix, but stupidily forgot the Chirurgeon, which I borrowed from you later. I've rechecked the rules considering ancilliaries in post #2 of the out of character thread, and it seems priests are not to be freely swapped. I think this is a mistake on our part, and a needless complication for the first consul and I will start a discussion about this in the out of charcter thread, but nonetheless I will endeavour to restore your priests to you when I can, which will be soon. Please, let us have not more discussion of this in the in character thread.
[QUINTUS]: I second motion #7. Do we have another seconder?
I object, Senator Decivs Laevinivs has seconded Motion #5. It shoulc be ammended accordingly.
You are correct. It would be handy if everyone Bolded their motion statements for easier reference.
Consul,
It is certainly good to have a clarification of the proceedings so far. It is heartening that you can spare the time from matters of state to perform such a task, perhaps this should be one task for the Senate Scribe?
It is obviously up to Senator Sextus Antio to reword his proposed Motion.
Bravery. It is my job to better server the Republic, there are but two active spies in the Republic's employ at this time....that includes myself. I trust that it does not sound ill of me when I say that my experience is greater than that of Senator Quintis Classicianus, and I would not entrust the most difficult of missions to one of my newly trained agents.
Hence, the most logical selection for that mission is myself. However, that is the choice of the First Consul ultimately.
It is, after all, only the injuries received in the service of the Republican armies that lead me to my current career, otherwise I would be fighting alongside our brave legionaries.....I am sure their risk is greater than any that I may take.
(OOC: Besides, I stand to potentially get a Retinue from such a trip :idea2: )
I second the motion also.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Further more I wish to congratulate our Consul on his recent victories against the barbarians !
A 10 : 1 ration surely is an achievement, and I'm sure i speak for the entire senate when I say we hope you continue your future work in the same fashion!
The following i quote from our consuls report:
I must agree with my father, Publius. Massila is nearby and would make the entrance into northern gaul a bit easier to defend. I also forsee no problems with takling the city itself, considering the state of our military.Quote:
However, the legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) has advised me that it would be prudent to conquer Massila, a rebel-held town just west of Cispine Gaul over the Alps. It is very easily defended as the only access to it from Gaul is by crossing a bridge. I am inclined to agree with his reasoning. We might go further and try to extend our influence untill we can attack the Cartheginian colonies in Spain.
I find that we should not attack the mighty Carthaginians in Afrika untill we can throw our full power at them, meaning we should build up our fleet first. Why take any un necessary risks I wonder ?Quote:
I have also heard reasoning that we are quite able to strike at Afrika itself now, but I worry about our lack of a strong fleet. I would advise against this, because even if we are succesfull in this venture, we cannot support it financially.
No, focus on Carthage and Gaul first, we don't want to fight a three front war, a war which will be a drain on our modest war chest. And maybe the Illyrians 'll even declare war on us...thus invading northern Italia.Quote:
We could also strike at Greece, as it has only one ally and the kingdom of Macedon is in serious trouble now as it is fighting two enemies at the same time and they can thus be ruled out. I have no strong feelings either way, but instead I would advise a defensive strategy and focus on our finances instead. I will of course carry out the will of the senate, whatever it decides.
The Greeks will fall, but let's concentrate on our current frontiers first shall we ?
I shall ammend Motion #5:
It now reads:
Motion #5: Expansion shall cease for the remainder of this consuls reign.
And I propose Motion #8: Expansion shall cease for the next consul's reign.
Thus, senators can vote on one or the other, or both.
Yes, you are of course correct. However, I failed to notice that the Senate Scribe had already preempted me and I compiled the list for my own convenience. My apologies for overstepping my authority here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden
I do think that a regular posted summary, say once a day, of the proposed motions will stir up debate. I get the impression from past debate that most of our members neglect to read up on the summary posted in post#1 of this thread.
First Consul,
I don't believe there is any problem with your extra effort here, indeed it speaks well of you.....is foreshame that you are committed to NOT run for Consul again for another 10 years.
Motion #5 - I second this motion in its revised format as proposed.
It seems that the senate is in general agreement on most of these motions. I find this to be very good news that we all can think clearly.
Conscript Fathers, it seems that this house is finally tiring of conquest - most excellent! I agree that after we have secured Cisalpine Gaul we should stop our expansion, with the Alps providing a natural barrier protecting Italia from the barbarians to the North. Other than securing Massila, any further expansion northwards would merely secure us lands of little value in an exposed position.
Blacklist? What is this blacklist you speak of? I have heard no discussion of blacklisted nations in this house! What have the Iberians done to us to deserve blacklisting? Macedon, Thrace and the Seleucids? The Ptolemites, Pontus and Numidia? This is an outrage conscript fathers! You talk of future wars against nations so far away that most of us know them only by their exotic names!Quote:
Motion #7 : We will strive to make alliances with all the nations not on our blacklist, i.e. not Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul or Numidia unless explicitly specified in an a motion by the senate
Here we are at war with 3 nations, surrounded on all sides by enemies, and you refuse to countenance alliances with nations on the spurious basis that we are destined to come into conflict with them in the future! This is madness!
Conscript Fathers, we should seek alliances with anyone who can help us in the 3 wars that you have so quickly and readily plunged us into.
Fellow Senators, I too support an end to war with the Gauls, but only after securing our frontier on the Alps with strong garrisons and watchtowers to alert us of any treacherous barbarian incursions. Once this has been achieved I will attempt, at the pleasure of our glorius Consul to negotiate a peace between us so that we may increase our balance through trade with the barbaric northeners. This too may have the added bonus of civilizing them and attracting them to our way of life, making it all the more easier for us to absorb them into our sphere of influence in the future.
I hereby second Motion # 2
I hear too much talk of continuing war with the great empire of Carthage, and also of attacking Africa. Anyone who believes war with these people is in our best interests is a fool, their fleets are powerfull and their control of the sea in this region is absolute.
Let us now secure our homeland and build up our economy before any further expansion is decided upon.
As our new diplomat Oppius Vintruvius (Wishazu) has been away for Rome for quite some time, news may not have reached him that we are still at war with Carthage and the Greek Cities.
If the motion for the taking of Massilia is passed, I will wait with peace offers untill that city is captured. Otherwise we might get into the nasty position of just having brokered a peace deal and then Gaul captures Massilia just before we get there.
Hear, hear. You speak wisely, Oppius Vintruvius. Augustus Verginus is a candidate proposing peace and prosperity, he may conquer a few provinces in order to satisfy the people, who are becoming used to conquests, however, I think he shall not attack Africa or Gaul, he is more likely to take a few Mediterranean islands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oppius Vintruvius
Senators,
The First Consul is committed to seizing the Mediterranean Islands currently held by Carthage and I support him in this wholly. They are strategically important for military access to Afrika and Iberia AND a potentially, very large, source of trade income due to their central locations.
These actions weaken Carthage, our greatest enemy at this time, and strengthens the Republic financially through trade and bases of control.
Both myself and the First Consul agree that now is not the time to enter Afrika and embark upon any actions in Carthage’s “back yard”, but he has proposed a fact finding mission……….information is power and any accurate information we can provide about Carthage’s strength is much needed by us now and in the near future so we may best defend the Republic from any aggression by Carthage.
I am unsure but thus far we have only encountered Gauls to our North. Do we have any information about what Barbarian tribes live beyond the Alps and what financial gains could be made by trade with them? I can only feel that peace with Gaul will be very difficult to obtain in the near future, they are proud and foolish and will see their defeats against us more like red rag to an enraged bull rather than the lesson in humility they surely were. With that in mind perhaps a diplomat should be sent further North so seek trade from the non-Gallic tribes? What about those nations in the Carpathians or around the Black Sea? There are many nations, Barbarian or Civilised, that we have yet to encounter.
I am also troubled by the mention of a “Black List”, initially I believed I had missed something from a previous Session of the Senate but it appears I have not…..I say this “Black List” must be torn asunder! We will make enemies, that is sure as we have enemies now. Let us not consider other nations as enemies until they force it upon us and try to make trade partners and allies whilst we can……
……..a farmer reaps whilst the sun shines and tills the ground whilst it does not.
It is true Consul Lucius Aemilius that I have been away from our beloved home city for some time, mostly dealing with stubborn, treacherous Greeks, these people supposedly renowned for forward thinking seem totally unable to grasp the futility of continued war with us. However I was simply stating that I support our expansion north to the Alps, but no further for now, also that continous war with Carthage is not advisable. I am fully aware that we are currently at war with these child killers and I wish to congratulate our glorius Consuls on the progress of the war. However, I feel that expanding the scope of the conflict to the Carthaginian homeland is not in our best interests.
Senator Decius Curtius proposes a fact finding mission into the wild north to explore the situation amongst the many, disparate barbarian tribes. As mush as it sickens me to spend so much time with these foul, flea ridden Gauls, I will go once my work in Massilia is done, If it is the will of the senate.
[Out of character]
I regret proposing the 'blacklist' motion in this thread, and will explain my reasons in more detail and then I propose to move further discussion on this topic to the 'out of character thread'.
We will get offers of alliance from many of our surrounding nations. For each of these the game would have to stopped and the senate would have to be consulted whether to accept or not. I am in favour of this, but practically this is difficult. Sometimes I get three alliance offers in a single turn. The game would have to be stopped, a vote taken, and resumed for each of these offers. This would delay progress immensely. The nations NOT on the 'blacklist' (which should include Illyria) are factions we do not intend to conquer ever. So an alliance with them would be in our best interest. It is best to decide these things in advance, so the first consul can just play on and inform the senate of the new alliance.
Therefore I propose we decide each first consul election what diplomatic relations we wish with all the factions. Let us do this once, and then we need only propose motion for changes in our diplomatic relations from then on.
Your thoughts would be appreciated (in the 'out of character thread')
Surely the period for debate of these motions has passed. Senate Scribe, is it time for a vote, to allow the Consul to continue on with his term?
[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Verginius, the First Consul delivered his report at around 4pm UK time Sunday; by convention, we have two days for debate. Voting will start this evening 6pm and last for 24 hours.
When it comes to drawing up the ballot papers, I will have the scribes redraft the motion about alliances to remove reference to a "blacklist". Instead it will merely list by name those faraway countries that we are unlikely ever to have to subdue.
It is with great disappointment that I note the heavy approval of Motion 2. Perhaps this body only remembers the gold the Republic paid to Brennus. Maybe your votes would be different if you were reminded of the other things which the Gauls took from Rome. Surely I am not the only one who heard his grandfather tell tales of the horrors that the barbarians inflicted upon this fair city.
For shame Senators. For shame.
http://smarties.goodleaf.net/persona...renn-large.jpg
The Gauls will pay, and already have at the hands of our current Consul.
We all remember the tales our grandfathers told us Verginius, and eventually we will march to the North. Now is just not the time. Don't you see that strengthening our economy and infrastructure now, will help us defeat the Gauls later, surely you do !
:balloon2:
Certainly I do and I am not advocating a further advance on the Gauls; I was I who proposed Motion 3, restraining further conquests of those pitiful territories. What good would siezing their hovels do for Rome? I would even be in favor of a ceasefire with the beasts, if they can be reasoned with. However, letting them profit by Roman trade goes simply too far for me. Our merchants can ply our wares nearly anywhere for thousands of miles, why do we need to encourage them to go to Gaul?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch_guy
Ah, but it is a lost cause, so I shall cease my ravings... for now.
Senator Verginius, perhaps Roman merchants in gaulish towns may encourage some form of civilisation of those Barbarians. I do not expect them to all stop wearing trousers of course, but who knows, we may encourage some of them to speak Greek as they deal with our merchants and businessmen. Furthermore, the benefits of trade will be plain for them to see. Whilst they trade with Rome they prosper, but as they have just learnt, if they decide to mess with us they will suffer!
Rome wasn't built in a day Conscript Fathers, neither will taming those hairy, unwashed beasts to our north be a quick and easy job. But perhaps, over time, they might approach some kind of culture that imitates our own (in a crude manner, of course).
Senator Verginius,Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
The reason I proposed this motion is that we will soon have a new border with settlements bordering on Gaul, including landbased settlements with no access to ports to ply their trade to other nations. Our merchants will profit by sharing in the Gaul trade, where otherwise they would have to trade amongst themselves with much less revenue. I don't like it that a potential future enemy will also profit from trade with us, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I have not finished punishing the Gauls by a long shot yet and you yourself, senator Verginius, will shortly have the oppertunity to take a more personal vengance for this historic vile act of descecration of our fair city. I trust you will use that oppertunity to make our grandfathers proud.
Senators, I believe it is time to consider our future options now, before it is too late and we are caught unprepared. I will list our options here:
I) Sue for peace
This is, of course, not the greatest option. While it does relieve the stress on our coffers due to the extra trade and no need to strengthen our armies, it will also allow our enemies to do the same. I also do not think it will be possible to obtain a favourable peace, and an unfavourable peace would stain the reputation of Rome, making us seem like spineless cowards who would bow down before our enemies and return their land in fear of assault.
II) Attack Gaul
This is going to be the easiest fight, due to the weak nation of Gaul. However, as senator Verginus has pointed out, the Gallic territories are, simply put, good for nothing. They are underdeveloped barbarians, after all, and it will take years before Gaul can be developed into any use at all. It would also leave Italy exposed, as our troops will be far in the North. We will also be bordering Germania and Iberia, and having five conflicts is simply too much for us to bear.
III) Assault Africa
This would be the most beneficial to our state, as it would destroy the major threat to our power in the West. However, it would be close to impossible, due to the military strength of the Poeni and their alliance with the Numidians, which a successful African campaign would leave us exposed to. We will have to increase our military might for this.
IV) Assault Punic Iberia
We could strike the Phoenicans in Iberia, which will be almost without a doubt lightly defended and ripe for the picking. Their holdings there should also be reasonably prosperous, as it would open up sea and land trade with the Iberians. However, it would be far away and hence difficult to control, and a constant guard would have to be put up to dissuade the Iberians from launching any attack.
V) An Achaean Campaign
Finally, we can take Achaeans from the Greeks. This will open up many trade routes with the Ptolemaics and Selucids, and if we manage to negotiate an alliance, the Selucids will ease the difficulty of an Achaean campaign with their many armies. The natural resources and highly developed Greek lands will also be extremely beneficial, and it would be close to our heartlands, enabling easy governance. The problem, however, would be opening up a border to the Illyrians and Macedonians. If we take this route, we should attempt to make peaceful relations with Illyria, and prepare for an inevitable war with the proud Macedonians, who, without doubt, will want to carve out an empire in Alexander's footsteps. At our expense.
So, senators, what path would you take? Personally, I would go for options IV or V, as these campaigns would be reasonably easy and also beneficial.
However, whatever path the senate chooses to take, I will advise to attack the Greek province of Crete, as this will be lightly held, easily defended and open up many trade routes.
Decivs Laevinivs
Firstly I am gratified to note the unity in the senate. This will make make us look strong to our enemies and our friends and people alike.
I applaud the foresight of my collegue Decivs Laevinivs for starting this discussion already. I would like to note the following points :
1. Any prolonged campaign across water will be extremely risky and hideously expensive, and as such I see no merit to such adventures untill we can afford to build a serious warfleet. Already our modest transport fleet is stretching our resources.
2. Even after the building program I have initiated and will continue to follow, there remains very much to be done indeed. A war or further extension of our domains would only limit our growth by draining our coffers.
3. The Gauls are not a very strong enemy. For their numbers and their bravery, they lack discipline, and are no match for Roman troops. We can hold them at bay untill they give in out of hopelesness. We are already at war with three nations. Does any of us want to encourage our suspicious neighbours by annexing even more, relatively worthless, territory from the Gauls ?
4. There is an option VI. The Illyrians are hardpressed and may soon succumb in their war against the Kingdom of Macedon. I rather have the weak Illyrians as my neighbours than the powerfull Macedonians. I suggest we give military aid to the Illyrians to keep them in play and keep the Macedonians in check. While we are there we can harass the Greeks as well. We can also aid the Illyrians in recapturing their lands from the Greeks.
I support option VI and option I.
Those are interesting propositions,
And they all have ammunition.
I support motion one,
Since our empire has hardly begun,
And we won't be outdone.
We need time to gather strength,
To keep our enemies at length.
Macedon is pushing west,
And I support the quest,
To keep Illyria in the contest.
Therefore I support motion six
And may Jupiter transfix,
Our enemies.
(I, Publius Pansa, am fond of rhymes :laugh4: )
I believe the Gauls pose the largest most immediate threat to us as we are not separated by a body of water. They can continue to send armies into our lands at will.
That said. With a bit of preparation I believe we can successfully achieve any of these missions.
Father, the Gallic tribes are yet to be united and therefore pose no threat, especially with their incredible lack of discipline, tactics or strength of will to fight. Also, we should not be so rash to choose any. Choosing the most profitable, easy and cheap mission is essential to the strengthening of our republic. For example, even if we had enough men to match the Poeni man to man in their dunes, we would be left with few men and left vulnerable to attack. We must follow a logical order of attack, for example, the annexation of Palma and Iberia before moving for the Carthaginian homelands. Even when we strike Africa, it would be wiser to attack their border regions, such as Hippo Regius, so lure some of their armies away, so that we may crush them one by one instead of provoking hordes of angry Phoenicans to strike us simeltaneously.
Ah, Senator Aemilius, you forget one important thing. Us Romans can manipulate the factions nearby our enemies with.. gifts, or perhaps promises to attack our enemies and not them. We can also sell our map to distant factions who are hungry for information, and for expensive prices at that. We can also receive funding for destroying Rebels from friendly factions, or even for attacking our rivals. The fund of a war will not put as much strain on our coffers as you might think, when you add this all up.
Our increase in a navy is inevitable, and the modernisation of Italia will enable us to fund a full sized fleet to dominate the Western Mediterranean.
Senators,
I have just recieved word by courier from acting first consul Lucius Aemilius (DDW) that senator tribune Augustus Verginius (TinCow) has been ambushed while leading the first legion ! It is said the enemy horde is led by the ferocious chieftain Lucco and that he outnumbers our legion two to one ! Oh merciful heavens, senators, what a disaster ! *catches breath*
https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/...shsmall6zf.jpg
I also have the unfinished report of the legate Lucius Aemilius detailing exactly what has transpired untill now.
This is a calamity! If Senator Verginius holds firm, he deserves to be honoured.
Ye Gods.
Consul, if I may ask where I was at this critical moment, and why I was not assigned to scout ahead on this important mission.
If anyone needs me I will be making sacrifices to Fortuna; for it is clear that we have done something to displease her.
Yes, Lucius Aemilius, this is serious lack of intelligence on your part, If Augustus Verginius dies, the blood is on your hands.
Both Decius Curtius (Braden) and Quintis Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief) are present in the region and I myself, a reconaissance specialist, was watching over the ground they did not cover. But Lucco was cunning and hid deep in the forest, emerging only as the legion passed. I did what I could with the resources I had, but as first consul I will assuredly take full responsiblity if the legion falls. Then again, if the legion falls, I will probably be Lucco's next target and the chances of me surviving that are slim.
[QUINTUS]: Courage, Senators! This is no disaster, nor even a potential one. One Roman soldier is easily worth two non-Romans. I have the utmost confidence in Tribune Verginius's command ability, ambushed or not, and I expect he will soon demonstrate this to those of you who have not regularly sparred with him in the exercises at the Academy.
But gentlemen, this is a sign of things to come. Once we move on Massila, we will be in the backyard of the Gauls and they will easily be able to raise such large armies to challenge us. The Senate has voted for a halt to conquest after Massilia under the present First Consul's reign. But I am unpersuaded that it would be prudent to stop at Massilia any longer than that.
Look to the east on the last map I included in my report. You can see Illyria is on the brink of defeat. Then we will have the powerful Macedonians at our eastern border, who are allied with our enemies, the Greeks. I am looking at Thrace with favourable eyes, which seems to be the sole thing keeping the Macedonians in check. But for how much longer, senators ? I dare not strike out further west than Massilia.
Do not be too alarmed, Senators. I have fought this Lucco before, and I can tell you that he is a fool and a coward. The only reason he wasn't slain that day is because he was the very first to flee the battle! His men, and we're talking about undisciplined Gauls here, held out much longer than he did. I would not be surprised if he orders a full retreat at the very sight of Verginius' troops!