The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

(writing while on march to the southern harbour)

To our Noble Senators,

It is clear that there are two camps who are skirmishing in our very own Senate: those who wish to prosecute the war against Seleucia, and those who wish in the main to hold what fronts we have and focus on internal matters.

Does anyone know how long it would take to reach an acceptable level of internal stability? And how is that acceptability to be defined?

I do not ask rhetorically. There must be an answer to these questions, and I think in fact we *need* clear answers to these questions. The First Consul has draw a clear line in the sands of Asia Minor. Perhaps it is my inexperience which prevents me from seeing clearly, but those opposed to him have yet to clearly define that which they desire, except that they desire the Senate to put a halt to the Consul's plans.

If no one knows the answer to these questions, I will have some of my staff pursue an answer in the Senate libraries.

Vale.

(staff of Appius Barbatus)

Revered Senate,

I lay before you the figures requested by Senator Barbatus.

To bring a province from enslavement to the production of troops requires a total of nine years and three seasons, at a cost of 27000 denarii. This shows the citizens and slaves that we are here to stay, and brings some basic order to the province (ooc: +15%)

To honour the Gods fitly by destroying all foreign temples and building Roman Shrines and then Minor Temples in their place requires two years, at a cost of 4800 denarii. This provides a significant benefit to the order in a province over time (ooc: +40%)

To provide basic sanitation by providing sewers takes one year and one season, at a cost of 3500 denarii, with a slight increase in public order (ooc: +5%)

To provide entertainment to the populace by building an Odeon requires one year and one season, at a cost of 8000 denarii. An Odeon, though expensive, has the greatest impact on order in a province of any single building project (ooc: +10%). Especially in Greece where they like this sort of thing.

To bring all of these things to a province would require fourteen years and one season, at a total cost of just over 43000 denarii.

Senator Barbatus leaves it to the opponents of Consul Aemilius' plans to outline how many cities they would wish to bring to the level of producing troops in Greece and Asia Minor before further expansion, and if an acceptable level of development would also include honouring the gods and providing for the health and public order of provinces.

If I may direct you gentlemen to another motion Senator Aureolus has proposed:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numerius Aureolus

Motion 11.19:This house requires that any campaign in Carthaginian territory in Africa be aimed at permanent occupation, not raiding and subsequent abandonment.

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As you may recall, this motion was passed by an 11-1 margin, with myself being the sole dissent. However, it seems as if now, there are more dissenting voices to the motion, mainly our esteemed Consul.

Now, let's look at the recent results of the Expedition. Lepcis Magna and Thapsus taken, and subsequently lost. While I admit that Lepcis Magna was lost through no fault of the Consul's, Thapsus was captured, its people enslaved, and it was back in the hands of Carthage two seasons later. Sounds like a raid to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motion 11.19

not raiding and subsequent abandonment

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Consular Report

Thapsus, however, must be abandoned

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I want to hear no talk about how it was a poorly-worded motion, or how that the Consul did it for the greater good. The fact is, that Servius Aemilius has broken the letter of the law, and the letter of the law is what counts.

I shall leave it up to this august body as to decide the punishment.

UPS - The 'peace party' does not care about those numbers senator Appius. They think denarii grow on trees and can be plucked from their branches like olives whenever we need them. On the other hand, Servius does, and has taken the most beneficial approach by spreading our public order constructs throughout the whole of the region as efficiently as possible, as well as isolating our most prominant choices for troop recruitment as quickly as possible. Though they will only provide alae at first, having auxilial recruitment centers far from the heart of Rome is better than having nothing out their at all, a situation that they chronically complain of.

And as far as Valerius Paullus's rantings. There is no way that this man, behaving the way he has, can expect us to respect his opinion, or, for that matter, even believe that he truly is an advocate of peace and prosperity, when his own personal behavior has him screaming like a mad man and throwing his toga at the senate. There is a blatant air of jealousy here, because the falsely named "peace party" did not get its way with the election of consul Servius. And this fact shines through brightly in Paullus's behavior.

EDIT - It is true that Thapsus had been momentarily devoid of Roman troops so that Cartago could be taken. However, we have visible, undeniable proof that the settlement was not actually 'abandoned', but was bribed back by Carthage before it could be re-garrisoned. Therefore, the law was never broken because the settlement was bribed away from our hands before it could actually revolt, and be considered abandoned by Roman hands. Perhaps we should punish Marcellus for conspiring to untruthfully implicate the consul in the breaking of a senatorial motion, or otherwise just behaving as a fool, and a poor supporter of his own family. And another thing, our intention is most certainly to take and hold Thapsus by the end of this consular reign. The motion makes no distinction that a settlement must be held at all costs from the very moment it is taken. The motion specifically states - Any campaign. Our operations in Afrika as a whole constitute a campaign, yes, our operations in Afrika are aimed at permament occupation, yes. Can the unforetunat loss of one settlement, momentarily due to bribery, that will be returned to as soon as possible, constitute a breach of the intentions of the campaign? No.

Ah, so you only had the intention of breaking Roman law and defying the will of the Senate. My mistake.

As for the definition of "campaign," it still does not matter. The point of the law was to take and hold Carthaginian settlements when they were most valuable to us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Thapsus with half the population and much less buildings of worth is less valuable to us than a Thapsus that was never conquered.

As for me not supporting my family, I don't want to hear it. You, Servius, decided to oppose me for Consul after I had declared my candidacy (informally, but still). You openly defied the wishes of the Aemilii by further expanding the Eastern border. You openly call Valerius Paullus, an Aemilius by marriage, raving mad when your own father is a certified lunatic. You search for ways to exploit loopholes in motions in order to further the glories won by your puppeteer, Numerius Aureolus. As far as I am concerned, you sir, are a treacherous dog and not worthy of the name Aemilius.

Actually it is exactly for economic reasons that I am opposed to needless extra expansion into Seleucid territory. It would say it is the 'war party' that believes gold will rain from the sky. I take the long term view.

Consider, each conquered town will provide income, but will need massive investments over a very long period of time before it is a stable, loyal, town with taxes set on high.
Also, the more territory we acquire the more troops and ships we will need to guard it all, at a large financial cost, both in recruitment and maintenance.

The more of these rebellious towns we acquire, the thinner the meager financial resources we have will be spread. Meanhwile the populations in all the towns will continue to grow, forcing us to lower taxes to keep the unrest under control, lowering out resources even more and incidentally increasing the growth rate of the population, so it will quickly require another drop in taxes.

For myself, I would be satisfied enough with the internal stability of the Republic to warrant expansion if the majority of the cities (especially the large ones like Athens, Corinth, Pella and Thessalonica) have been stabilized so far that we can leave a two-unit garrison and still be able to set the taxes on high.

I appreciate the clear answer that Senator Lucius Aemilius has given. And I think the Senator brings up a valid concern, that financial gains will not be won by conquest alone. It is conquest coupled with builders, merchants, and garrisons that bring the great financial rewards we seek.

Putting aside for the moment the Seleucid army and their raids, I think that it could be beneficial to consider which is the better option financially in the case at hand. Will we gain more financial control from conquest, or from consolidation? Stabilising cities until they can be left with a two-unit garrison is indeed ideal. However, at what cost and how many consulships in the future will that be reality? Would expanding our borders bring in greater income in a shorter time?

Certainly these questions are not subject to Xeno's paradox. I will order my staff's wheat counters to double their efforts and consider this along with their other duties.

Currently the History of our Republic has been thus:

We are at peace and building for our betterment, then we are attacked or directly threatened so we respond until that threat has been neutralised, then we start to build again.

Until such times as those states around us acknowledge that we are not war-mongers but only respond to what pressures they exert against our own safety then I foresee that this circle of development, interrupted with warfare then followed by development again will continue.

It does not take a Greek to understand which segment of this cycle we are in currently.

OOC : It's impossible for me to argue with this argument. As long as we keep running this game on VH/M we will need to expand continuously according to your argument as they will never offer peace on this setting.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Marcellus Aemilius seeks to use one of my motions to impugn the integrity of the First Consul. But my motion was worded quite precisely: it speaks of the aim of the campaign. When Marcellus's Consular army arrives, I am sure we will see the conquest of Afrika underway in full.

But taking Carthage already with what was only a Praetorian army in far away Lepcis Magna is a significant coup for the First Consul. It would not have been possible if Thapsus had had to be defended against multiple Carthaginian armies. Moreover, I believe Thapsus was not raided - no buildings that could be of any use to us were destroyed.

If Carthage were abandoned, I would have some sympathy with Marcellus. But as it is, I fear what we are seeing is sour grapes from the loser of the last election. I confess I do not understand this embittered stance - Marcellus has been given command of a Consular army and is about to launch a significant campaign; he can also stand for election as the successor to the current First Consul.

Members of the Senate,

My report on my Consular armies first combat action has been posted.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Senators,

Word of a great battle near Carthago has reached even my ears, here in Abydos! I have heard the accounts of the battle between Servius and the Carthaginians, and must offer my congradulations for such a victory. Masterfully played, aggressive, all the makings of a great general. However, I have also heard reports of many more great Carthaginian armies making their way straight to our two lonely legions in North Afrika. I offer my prayers for their safety and courage in destroying the Carthy scum.

I would also like to add my own report of my goings-ons of the past year or two. After my few battles and retaking Tylis, I was commissioned by the new Consul to go around the cities making speaches to quell the disorder, bring the newly conquered people Roman rule and generally improve the situations where necessary. Now, thankfully, that task is nearly completed and I will soon be back on the campaign trail, doing what I do best. I only await reinforcements to have a legion to lead! After all, this is no way for the leader of the storied Legio I to spend his days much longer. If only the previous Consul hadn't torn apart my legion to reinforce others'... *grumble grumble* Bah, in any case, Cornelius Saturninus is back and ready for action.

My congratulations to Senator Servius and his taking of Carthage. I hope that this will open the eyes of the Phoenicans, and make them listen to peace proposals more carefully than before. Perhaps now is the time to sue for peace... and making the Phoenicans our client kingdom?

(letter from Appius Barbatus, encamped in Samnium en route to Brindisium)

Word has reached me here through messengers from Tarentum of a great battle and victory for Rome in the Carthaginian lands. I wish to send my hearty congratulations to the First Consul, and hope for his continued success on this front. The enemies of Rome will tremble to hear the footsteps of our Legions approaching!

The consumate skill of the Consul never ceases to amaze me! It seems that no Carthenginian army can stand against him.

I am gladdened though that re-enforcements and support for him has arrived however, it seems they are also besieged now in the fort they constructed.

It looks worrying but I have faith that the Senators and the Consul can defeat the Carthage forces and we shall have our victory soon.

Members of the Senate,

I report that the city of Symrna is now in our hands, as is the mighty Temple of Artemis.

I have pledged that the riches contained within this temple be re-distributed throughout the Republic and allocated for building projects for our own Temples.

I have also posted a full report of the assault and taking of the city.

Manius

(OOC: This is a decent IC reason for the 30% reduction in build costs for temples we get for the capture of the wonder)

(letter from Appius Barbatus)

Again tidings of the blessings of the Gods reach me, this time from far-flung Smyrna. Thanks are in order to Senator Manius Coruncanius who has brought victory on such a scale without making widows of half of the Etruscan countryside. May Diana smile on his efforts now that he has justly captured the Greek temple.

I am receiving men continually at the camp near Tarentum. The men's spirits are high as we await setting forth to the East. However, their focus seems not to be where it should be. I must report that some of the troops look on me with disdain for my age and for the fact that I have brought my wife here to care for her in her illness. They would, it seems, rather have a commander who brings in whatever stray prostitutes wander near the camp!

My fellow senators, I ask for your help in my inexperience. How does one keep men's minds from wandering when encamped? It seems an insurmountable task at this time.

Vale.

Senator,

Keeping fighting men occupied and contented whilst they are not fighting or on campaign is an almost impossible task.

I, too, am young and am lucky to be in the field and have no concern for such things.

My main advice would be to keep them busy at all costs! Drilling, building projects...anything that keeps them from spending their money on the local women of ill repute.

....I am also proud to advise you and the Senate that the Consular army under my command has taken the town of Sardis in the name of the Republic!

A mere 25 Roman and Italian lives were lost in the operation as we took near 270 Ptolemy heads.

We get closer to a really defensible border between us and Seleucia.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/...s-sardis-1.zip

UPS - The last of your reinforcements will arrive and the legion will disembark for the east next season. At which time they will be spending much of their days getting used to sea-sickness, fishing, and learning the ways of the sea.

Until that time, I can offer you the following suggestions. If such men are concerned of your age, you can always make a direct reference to the consul himself that age means nothing in the ways of war. At only 22 years of age, Servius has served with his legion in Afrika for the entirety of his consulship, ruling the Republic from the battlefield, and serving, directly on the frontlines, amongst his men. At 22 years of age, he is responsible for outmaneouvering, outwitting, and tactically outclassing the Carthaginian armies from day one. Urge them to take notice that the true strength in Roman honor and dignity is found in family strength and loyalty, and that any man who brings a greek prostitute off the streets of Tarentum into his tent is no true roman man. Encourage games, both of the mind and the body, drill every day, battle will come to you all soon and you must be completely prepared, and finally...encourage loyalty through rewards.

I hope these suggestions help you stay the minds of your men. If they still insist on being rowdy, you can always threaten to transfer them to the deserts of Afrika with the consul, and scare them with stories of how the sands themselves attempt to devour men whole, and are made into storms so fierce they can eat the flesh from a man's bones. Either way, if your first engagement is a success, and we have every confidence that it will be, your men will respect you thereafter regardless of their current opinion. Men like to be led by great generals, they just don't realise that every great general started out much lesser known.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamur

(letter from Appius Barbatus)

Again tidings of the blessings of the Gods reach me, this time from far-flung Smyrna. Thanks are in order to Senator Manius Coruncanius who has brought victory on such a scale without making widows of half of the Etruscan countryside. May Diana smile on his efforts now that he has justly captured the Greek temple.

I am receiving men continually at the camp near Tarentum. The men's spirits are high as we await setting forth to the East. However, their focus seems not to be where it should be. I must report that some of the troops look on me with disdain for my age and for the fact that I have brought my wife here to care for her in her illness. They would, it seems, rather have a commander who brings in whatever stray prostitutes wander near the camp!

My fellow senators, I ask for your help in my inexperience. How does one keep men's minds from wandering when encamped? It seems an insurmountable task at this time.

Vale.

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[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: My congratulations to the First Consul on his latest report. He has completely turned around the critical situation he inherited upon coming into office. The Seleucid invasion of Europe has been reversed - we are now invading Asia. Carthage has been dealt a succession of hammer blows and is surely doomed. Ptolemy has been stripped of some of its most wonderous and lucrative coastal provinces. Iberia has been deterred and Thrace can only lurk in the dark forests across the Danube.

Senators, I submit that our Republic has never been stronger. I salute the First Consul on his achievements and wish Marcellus Aemilius every success in his imminent battle against the Carthaginians, and the subsequent campaign of conquest.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

I shall echo senator Aureolus' sentiments in congradulating Consul Aemilius with his apt handling of the dire situation he came into. The results speak for themselves, no doubt.

However, I am a bit worried about the last battle report we recieved from Marcellus. We lost too many men in my military opinion and I'm worried about further battles with the numerous Carthaginians on the horizon. It won't be easy, or cheap, reinforcing Afrika, and if we lose too many more men, our campaign there may end up all for nought. I fear the appointment of Marcellus Aemilius to such a crucial theatre in our military front may have been a mistake, whilst I was moving around giving speaches to a bunch of greeks and barbarians. Now, I don't want to excuse the Consul of any favor-giving, far from it, it just doesn't seem that Marcellus was the most qualified for the job. (OC: I say this in-character of course, referring to Marcellus' 1 star military stat. Has nothing to do with how the actual battle was carried out ~;) . Also of course has interesting in-character implications considering the 'family ties'.)

At any rate, these are only my concerns for the good of our Republic, I do not wish to insult anyone in particular. Only to see the success of our plans and have our nation prosper.

As you know Senator Saturnius, the Consul and I can hardly be considered family any more, so I doubt that this appointment was done due to family connections.

That said, the next battles should come easier. Mainly because the largest army in the theatre has just been taken out of action, and I now have experience fighting the Carthaginians.

I would next like to make a request to the Consul: If my purpose in Afrika is to destroy armies, then I would rather do it in the open field, perhaps on a bridge than sallying out of a fort.

(OOC: Marcellus did receive a trait increase after the battle and pretty soon he'll get Legate, so stars shouldn't be a problem).

UPS - You're complaining to the consul about having to sally forth from a fort to do battle? Carthage chose the venue of a siege. Or would you rather the consul had not allocated the funds necessary for a fort and given you the potential of being assaulted in the open by two Carthaginian armies rather than being besieged by one? An open field battle like that would have meant the total decimation of your legion. Not even you can contest such a thing Marcellus.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

I seemed to have forgotten the troubles within the Aemilii family, my apologies. And perhaps I was being a bit too quick to judge, it was the first major battle against the Carthaginians, and a strong force at that outnumbering Marcellus. I'm sure the experience gained will come quickly and forcefully, and upcoming promotions will help with advisors and such rallying around the general. I just had a bout of doubt about our actions in Afrika, and seeing all those Carthaginians closing in. My best wishes to the two men leading our cause across the seas.


*edit*
I can hardly believe my ears! Word has reached me yet again about spectacular victories in Afrika under the leadership of our young Consul Marcellus. I believe we are bearing witness to a legend in the making, his battles within the last year already having gone down in the history books. My hearty congradulations and support for the wonderful work in Afrika, may the gods keep your strength up.

Another great Carthaginian city is in our possession. Hadrumentum is ours, and the price the Carthaginians paid probably finished them off. They have lost yet another army (I am told that the only significant force on the mainland now is the garrison of Hippo Reguis), as well as another general.

Well done. First Consul Servius, you amaze us all with your stunning victories on every front.

Members of the Senate,

I am happy to report an ERROR in my last report regarding the taking of Sardis.

I reported a loss of 25 Roman and Italians……this is WOEFULLY wrong.

My Roman and Italian losses against the 259 defenders was only….

……Thirteen (13), Roman and Italians!

My Adjutant had included the 12 Thracians in the original count despite my instructions to deliberately exclude them.

We now march to face the largest Seleucid threat available in the area and I hope to continue to yield high enemy deaths for such little Roman and Italian casualty figures.

Senator Libo, we must not forget the generals of the republic, without whom we could not be so successful.

Therefore, I offer my congratulations to all generals in the successful campaigns in Africa and against Selucia.

A very valid point. Well done all around, to generals who fight with the men, and also to thise who dictate the strategy.

UPS - Well then Senator Libo doubly praises both the men and the consul. As the consul has fought frontline with his legion in every engagement, and the Republic's generals, when the situation is not critical, are commonly confronted on their opinion of the proper strategy.

Such praise is surely much appreciated by all of our senators.

I have to advise the Senate that these Ptolemites and Seleucids appear to be unable to field a significant force here in Asia-Minor. Again, I have been tasked to putting down little more than an expedition force.

At this time and due to the actions of us in Asia-Minor it seems that we can take whatever territory we wish and make whatever border we want. I know the Consul will stick with the plan he has for this though and take no more than is required to construct a solid, defensible border.

I just want the Senate to know that all previous “fears” can be quelled and perhaps we can start enjoying the fruits of what our armies have achieved here in Asia-Minor and in Afrika during the next Consulship.

Senators, what is the point of staying put when the Greeks are unfit to defend? We should seize this oppurtunity to inflict a lightning campaign with one of our armies, which is to be given free reign in the region, and the commander tasked only with:
- keeping the army intact
- capturing enemy towns and razing their training facilities
- destroying any enemies in his wake
We might never get such an oppurtunity again, and I urge the senate to give the consul in Anatolia the permission to deal this crippling blow to the Greeks!

This shall, as I have stated earlier, cripple the remaining Greek factions. It will allow us to sue for a favourable peace. If the Greeks should have the gall to reject a simple ceasefire and subjection to Rome as a client state, they shall be in no position to defend themselves from the wrath of Rome's legions, or to launch a significant attack on our borders, as they will be unable to recruit troops from neighbouring regions.

Of course, such a campaign would be costly and risky. But judging by the coffers on this day and the amazing victories consistently achieved by our generals, I do not think this feat would be impossible to pull off. Should we win the gamble, we will be the unchallenged hegemon on the Eastern frontier of the empire, which will undoubtedly be secure for days to come.

(letter from Appius Barbatus)

I have heard through messengers that the debate over the Consul's policies in the east and in Carthage have died down, but a new debate springs up regarding whether to push forward in Anatolia. This is a matter perhaps for our midterm deliberations.

To me, it seems obvious that the Seleucids are reeling from the disasters that are constantly befalling them at the hands of our able Generals, Marcellus Aemilius and Numerius Aureolus. I and my men are also bound there, to bring strength to Numerius and much-needed supplies to them both.

With two full legions in the area, it should be not only simple but relatively safe to attack and destroy Seleucid cities whilst the opportunity presents itself. Destroying buildings, especially training facilities, will set the Seleucids back years, and if we raid enough cities they may not have time to recover by the time we can muster a full invasion army.

However, I must urge the Senate and Consul Aemilius to retain the plan that the Consul laid out only a few weeks ago, to fortify a line along the Plateau and then stray beyond it only to raid and destroy Seleucid strongholds. To occupy cities beyond this border would without a doubt be bringing the war too far from Rome and too far from reinforcement.

Besides, the corrupting influence of the East may wear on our Generals and soldiers without Roman buildings and Roman laws being firmly established in their midst. Let us not stray too far lest we lose the numina that guide us.

I appreciate Senator Barbatus' commending my generalship, but I fears he has me mixed up with Manius Coruncanius, as I am in Afrika presently.

That said, you all know my position on the East. I was against venturing into Asia Minor in the first place, although I reluctantly submit that it was a good idea.

I see no further benefit in expanding even farther east. There is no sea that we can control and hence increase trade benefits, and it would stretch us even further. There will be a defensible (albeit less defensible than the original border) border, and if our forces can defeat army after army of these people then surely they can hold a measly bridge.

Senator Barbatus,

Whilst I am young and full of pride I will certainly abide by the instructions of the Senate and the Consul. Whilst my army appears to be able to raid at will in Asia-Minor against both the Seleucids and Ptolemites, I will sprinkle my actions with temerance and only strike where and when it is deemed best by the Consul and Senate.

Senator Tiberius,

Greeks?? What Greeks do you speek of, I was under the impression that the Greeks were dealt with a good few years back, we should consult the Library on this though as I was but a student in my formative years at the time.

I am certain though that no Greek "threat" exists. Do you mean perhaps Carthage or Seleucia/Ptolemy?

Senator Aemilius,

I have to agree. We will expand just as far as to establish a defensible border. A by product of this is the coastal regions of the Black Sea and around Rhodes, which will be profitable for the Republic in the future.

My humblest apologies to both Senators Marcellus Aemilius and Manius Coruncanius! This will teach me to write without consulting the Senatorial rolls.

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Originally Posted by Braden

Senator Tiberius,

Greeks?? What Greeks do you speek of, I was under the impression that the Greeks were dealt with a good few years back, we should consult the Library on this though as I was but a student in my formative years at the time.

I am certain though that no Greek "threat" exists. Do you mean perhaps Carthage or Seleucia/Ptolemy?

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Are the Seleucuids not the descendands of Alexander... a 'Greek'. Do they not fight in the phalanx? They are greek, no matter how far away they are from greece.

I agree with previous comments regarding a raid into the Seleucid heartlands.

Senator Coruncanius: the Eastern Greeks, the Ptolemaics and the Selucids of the Alexandrian Empire. They are a corrupt, decadent version of the Greeks swimming in riches in the Eastern part of the world. As such, they deserve no power, and any attack on them is fully supported by me. The Greeks should never be allowed to threaten our republic again.

Senator Marcellus: I am not proposing an expansion into the East, merely a crippling of the Selucid Empire. The destruction of some of their core provinces will surely weaken them for a long time, maybe even permanently. Surely you see that it would be folly to merely consolidate? With no major forces in the area, the Selucids are defenceless against our Legions. However, if we stay put, they will be easily able to muster up yet another army to slay more sons of Rome, while the senate debates are droning on. The power of the Greeks must be destroyed!

Senator Libo,

I don't wish to engage in symantics but Alexander was Macedonian, perhaps the B'stard children of Greek, Dacian and Thracian intermarriages?

As to who invented the Phalanx....I'm certain that Greeks thinkers could discuss such a thing right up until the time when good Roman steel cuts their throats! hahahahhahahaha

Ahh...understood Senator Tiberius, I suspect that I have been Tutor'd too long in Roma by "pure" Greeks and thus make a clear distinction where none is required or perhaps even "Roman"?

Senator Coruncanius, a Greek is a Greek, no matter where he chooses to live. It all boils down to their blood, and all Greeks think similarly to me. and thus, they are all a threat. Look at this worrying trend: ALL the Greek factions have attacked our Republic, even without a legitimate motive. and, therefore, all must submit to us or be crushed. Even the barbarians to the North know their place and are not as reckless as the foolish Greeks, who apparently cannot learn a lesson from the utter destruction of Macedon.

Senator Decius Laevinius

UPS - A situation has risen in the north that should be brought to the attention of the senate.

Consul Servius, upon further inspection of the situation surrounding the Iberian warband that refused to move from the ford, discovered the following information on the logistics for the main Iberian force.

https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a5...ugo/uhoh-1.jpg

Their goal was clearly to block us from constructing the fort directly on the ford so that their main army can lead them through the forest south of Viberi with an experienced commander, possibly heading through Luvavum to Cisalpine Gaul, where he could ransack northern Italy for several seasons before aid could arrive. In immediate response to this, Quintus Livo and his adopted son Nero Naso have been ordered to immediately abandon Viberi, dismantle the Roman constructs, and head south. A permament border fort will be located on the ford north of Luvavum, where it is more viable to defend against an attack from the Iberians or Thrace. Viberi provided an adequate amount of income and aid to Rome while it lasted, but it just isn't worth the continued risk.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

What? What's this? Abandoned a city for no reason? I must say, I'm displeased with this decision, leaving a Roman town undefended like that. What reason do the Iberians have not to attack it now? We cannot afford a war with them, this has been made clear. I just don't understand this move. Someone, please, make sense of this for me. At least give the town away to someone so as not to provoke an attack.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I confess I also do not understand the plan regarding Viberi. It appears from the map provided that we are abandoning the fort blocking the Iberians from reaching Viberia and also abandoning Viberi itself. If that is what we are doing, it appears tantamount to an invitation to Iberia to declare war.

I apologise if I have misunderstood, but if Cornelius and I are interpreting the Consul's plans correctly, they are reckless in the extreme. Iberia has proved herself no threat if contained. She is like a cowardly wolf, easily cowed by our strength and anyway preoccupied with devouring Germania. But to leave the door open and a helpless babe on the table is surely too much temptation!

If the Consul wishes to vacate Viberi, which I believe is unnecessary, then he should at least seal it off from the Iberians with forts and armies until such a time as it rebels and can no longer provide a casus belli.

{Cornelius Saturninus}

I fear that even if we let it rebel, the people may rebel to either the Germans or Iberians themselves, either way causing immediate war. Why not keep the town?

I regret to have to be so lenient on the Iberians that I was so keen to attack years ago, but I must concur with the last points made. Our forces are already stretched too thinly, and a war with Iberia is the last thing we need. In order to deter them from war, we simply must keep a border garrison in Viberi, to dissuade the Iberians from sending out this foolish expedition and end up with us having more wars than we can deal with at once.

If the consul is going to be stubborn, however, the best path will be to guard the forts with our legions to prevent an Iberian attack while it is being dismantled, and Viberi to a faction, preferably one that is friendly to Rome.

{Manius Coruncanius}

As many of you in the Senate are aware, I am a staunch supporter of our current Consul, perhaps one of his most loyal, and have had little to query with regards his tactical knowledge in the past.

I can see what the Consul is aware of but the information given by his messenger has not provided the Senate with sufficient knowledge to make a considered opinion on the matter.

The Consul fears that not allowing the Iberians a “vent” into Germainia to the North via Viberi then they will turn South following the forests, across the ford and onto a more dangerous position. Please remember how close Luvavum is to some of our most developed and oldest settlements.

I am sure it will take at least two seasons march for the main Iberian force to reach Luvavum anyway, have we nothing that could block the ford there in this time frame?

He also neglects to advise us of what forces we have South of this area? Do we not have any forces or commanders North of either Mediolanium or Patavium that could march further North to further shepherd the Iberians away?

I find myself questioning why we are abandoning the fort South West of Viberi. I support the idea that there is no way that we could defend Viberi herself, she has no defensive emplacement and cannot have them, but wasn’t the fort placed there for just this reason? Yet, at the first sign of what we’d planned for occurring, we abandon it and the town its defending??

Also, to the Senators I say, whilst a war with Iberia will be a problem it is not a situation that could be termed as “cannot be afforded”. I cannot comment on what forces we have in the area so perhaps we could not stand against the Iberians if they chose to attack, but, our economy has recovered from our Seleucid/Ptolemite war…….just….and I say!!!

IF the Iberians WANT war then by Hades teeth! We’ll give them a war and dance on the ashes of their funeral pyres!

Carthage is all but crushed, the East is secure and well defended. Perhaps now the world is about to throw us our next challenge? We do not seek war but nor will we hide from it!

Maybe now is the time to make war upon them. Strike from the Fort, strike at the small Iberian force and push them back across the border! Make the Iberians know now that we will not tolerate their continued un-invited incursions into our lands and that they have led us into a position where our only option now is to fight them. Have we not given this small force sufficient warning to leave? Perhaps they need a “nudge” out the door now?

If we have to declare war to just expell what amounts to a small "brigand" force, in our own lands, then WAR it shall be! I do not condone invasion of Iberian lands at this time but just the encouragement to the Consul that he can expell these invaders from our lands and stamp our Republican authority on our actions.


___________________________________________________________________________

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I have heard from the First Consul and it seems my worst fears have been realised - the Consul intends that we abandon Viberi and the fort to the west blocking the Iberians from it.

I would like to ask of the First Consul:
(a) what he believes would have happened if he did not make this move (abandoning Viberi and the fort)?
and
(b) what he believes will happen now he has made this move?

I ask these questions because I simply do not understand his reasoning. It seems to me that under (a) he anticipates war - perhaps that Ambon's army would enter our lands. I have no idea what he anticipates under (b).

For what it is worth, under (a), I believe we could have maintained peace with Iberia and held Viberi perhaps indefinitely. I am not convinced Ambon intended to do anything other than march north to join the war against Germania.

However, given the First Consul's plan, under (b), I fear the Iberians will shortly attack us.

I hope I am wrong, but this seems a most reckless move with no discernible benefit.

UPS - The senate has often been unable to discern the consul's plans..why should this recent dessention be any kind of surprise?

Firstly, if Viberi was not abandoned, Iberia, if its intentions were Germania, would have found the route to Germania blocked by our forts. Its options then, because it could not afford to waste the time marching all the way back through and around our territory, would be either 1 - take the fort, engaging in acts of war with us, or 2 - see more profitable land to the south and launch an assault of our very profitable provinces of Aquileia, Patavium, Bononia, etc.

It should be noted that Quintus Libo's legion is only of praetorian status, and is not suited to engage barbarian soldiers in a consular sized formation with a strong general and another two praetorian sized armies following in its path only a season away.

The closest reinforcing legions to Quintus Libo are Quintus Naevius who cannot be removed from Comata, and Servius Nero, serving on the Danube, where it would also be of poor judgement to withdraw his services. Both will take up to six seasons or longer to arrive near Viberi.

The consul feels quite strongly that Iberia will see Rome's intent as this withdrawel being an act of goodwill. We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally, but it must be so if we are to avoid a direct conflict with them. Viberi will be allowed to rebel. We feel strongly that Iberia will not make any attempts on the town until after it has revolted against Roman rule, it is our contention that they don't want war with us, but that Viberi is most certainly in the way of Iberian plans, and too far from the heartland of Roman rule to properly defend now that Iberia has denied us the position we had originally desired. If it truly does desire the town at all, they won't go to war with us when they can simply wait and take it when it lies defenceless and is no longer a part of Roman obligation. Either way, the withdrawel to a more easily defendable position will be beneficial.

In regards to concerns a) If Iberia had moved its forces and permitted us to obtain the border we had desired, then yes, but for a year they made this impossible. We believe Ambon will march through Noricum Superior to reach Germania.
b) Iberia, if it accepts our good will, will do nothing to initiate hostile action. If it does not accept it...then it would have done so anyway, and we have done nothing but move Quintus Libo and his legion to a more defensible, more secure place to defend himself.

We wonder, what his Quintus Libo's opinion on the matter?

(ooc - double post, sorry)

Senators and UPS Maximus,

These are the conclusions that I thought the Consul had come up with. Like myself I am inclined to believe that the Iberians are just stupid and expect us to allow them unchallenged passage to Germainian lands.

With the fort in place they cannot physically pass. They “could” then march past Viberi but the Consul is assuming that there is the minor possibility of them attacking the settlement – our forces cannot stand there, that is raw truth!

It leaves a vile taste in my mouth to leave the town to this possible fate and I would be inclined to station some Republican forces in the town so that it will not rebel against us. If the Iberians attack then the town is lost but I would, personally, prefer we looked more optimistically at the situation and not destroy our buildings there and retain a garrison.

If we loose the town, we will loose those within it I know, and perhaps volunteers should be sought form the Legion for this most dangerous task. I propose no Legate be present and the town be put over to the control of a Centurion only.

IF, my and the Consuls assumptions are correct we can re-occupy the town fully after the Iberians have passed.

IF we are NOT correct then a war will exist between us and Iberia finally and we will have to deal with that. I do not doubt a recapture of Viberi at some point though.

The other thing to consider is our Allies. Am I correct in saying that Germainia is, and has been for a number of years our pledged Ally? Do we just allow the Iberians free access to wage war upon our ALLIES?!?

What people are we if this is so?

UPS has advised the Senate that there are NO forces available that could stanch the flow of the Iberians across the border in time, but he is also correct in asking for the thoughts of the Tribune who is there now – Quintus Libo. IF he feels he can hold, in the name of the Republic, then I say we allow him the honour to do so.

There are two choices.

We withdraw, ready Legions and secure our heartlands with a view of perhaps striking at Iberia – depending on what occurs at Viberi. A prudent course of action.

Or

We again face off directly and in the field against the smaller Iberian force. Force them back across the border and force the main Iberian armies to think twice in that region. A bluff perhaps, a show of force that we do not have perhaps…….I say this choice lays with Quintus Libo, a capable commander in truth. If he is prepared to lay his life upon the line and force the Iberians to back away again (and take route through their own lands towards Germainia) then I will support him in that choice.

This is perhaps the most honourable course of action. The question is, does the Republic now act with measured Prudence or in the Honour of its people and history?

Senators and Consul (via UPS) – thus far the Iberians have only respected a show of strength from us. I am inclined to say that due to their barbarian nature they will not accept our withdrawal as “good will” but rather as weakness.

YES, we are weak in that region but……I feel that if we show we are still willing to fight if pushed, then the Iberians will back down again. We do not need to show the Iberians we are weak, let them see we are strong and determined.

(letter from Appius Barbatus)

I agree with Senator Manius Coruncanius, that the Iberians are nothing but rabble, and smelly rabble at that. They do not have the wits to see this move as a peaceable one. It is in their blood to view military actions as either weak or strong; there is no other way for them.

However, what choice have we than to abandon Viberi? I believe the Senator Quintus Libo could soundly defeat the Iberians by holding the ford near Viberi, but this is one location along a vast and for the most part undermanned border!

To the west we have troops moving up from Iberia itself toward Gergovia and Augustus' fort. Quintus Naevius holds a strong position at the fort north of Comata, but the Iberian Vercingetorix could be at his doorstep with a legion-sized army at his back in two seasons! To the north, Iberian forces moving to attack the Germans could easily be diverted against us. The well-traveled veteran of many wars, Mikolaus, gathers strength on the shores of the Baltic and could destroy the Thracians in one swift blow, leaving our northern border open to attack.

It is a grave and mistaken idea to think that attacking the Iberians would be wise. I think we must back away from Viberi at this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wonderland

{Cornelius Saturninus}
I just don't understand this move. Someone, please, make sense of this for me.

---

Why? This is pretty much par for the course these days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UPS Maximus

We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally, but it must be so if we are to avoid a direct conflict with them

---

Let me repeat that.

We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally

Conscript Fathers, I should be angry, nay furious at this betrayal of our only ally, yet I am so far past angry. Instead, I am overcome by a deep, morose-laden sadness. I cannot even rouse myself to fight against this betrayal of Roman values. If anything, we should be attacking Iberia to aid our German allies - if we are as strong as our Consul & his supporters in this house claim.

But they would rather gorge themselves on the riches of the East and agitate for endless conquests to further their own glory.

I leave you again Senators, I'm sure you are too busy expanding to yet another "defensible border" and its associated "raiding" leading to expaning to yet another "defensible border"...

You may indulge in your relentless empire building without interference from me.

{Manius Coruncanius]

I was going to suggest something in light of what has been said but it stuck in my throat and would NOT come out……it was a cowardly suggestion, it shall not pass my lips.

Now, if Appius’s assessment is correct, isn’t backing down in the North just a further invite for the Iberians to assail us from all those points that Appius suggests?

As there are so many Iberian forces about, would it not lend even more weight to a show of bravado from us, a show of strength and further resolve to not tolerate incursions from the Barbarians?

What is clear now though, is that we have all delayed this for as long as possible. Now we have reached a point where we either loose a settlement or the, long expected, conflict will start….even then, I doubt that the conflict will be avoided but perhaps delayed by a season or at most two.

This is still too short a time for us to fully re-enforce the border and prepare for this war. However, I trust in Roman training and in good Roman steel. I say that we can still defend our borders with what little we have against these……these….….foul and posturing barbarians.

Heads will be cleaved and spears will be splintered but those commanders on the border will, once again, face seemingly insurmountable odds and exceed all our hopes and dreams. They will grant the Republic the time she needs to assemble the Legions required for her ultimate defence, in blood it will be paid but in BLOOD times 1,000! ........Will it be re-paid.

Quote:

---

We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally

---

We have an ally?

I find it a bit strange that, from the time the Coruncanii sponsored me and brought me into this august house until now, that this mysterious ally has been mentioned once, in passing. I took the liberty of looking through the Senate rolls and found that Germania has been discussed when they came into discussions over Senate motions, but their plight has been ignored or even applauded by some here.

Apparently it is an alliance of convenience rather than of action.

Senator Valerius Paullus, I appreciate your concern at this time, and indeed concur that if we are truly allied then we must, in Roman honour, bleed to the last drop for our true ally. However, the fact that not even you, Senator Paullus, have fought for strengthening Germania from the time they signed the alliance documents until now speaks volumes.

What sort of Roman virtue is there to defend if we have been happily standing by in our strongholds when our ally is under attack?

{Cornelius Saturninus}

It appears the Consul will not be swayed on this matter... woe is the day the senate's worries go unheaded by the elected leader. It appears we shall be thrust into this war with Iberia nomatter how unpopular it is. If at least we had the proper resources to conduct such a war, perhaps it would not be so much of an atrocity. We could have done what needed to be done, take their lands, push them back into the peninsula and seal off the border... ah, could have, would have, should have, dust in the Roman wind now...

UPS - What is being done, is being done, to avoid war with Iberia at all costs. The senate has habitually misunderstood the purpose, validity, and value behind the consul's strategies, so why should this be any different?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lucjan

We wonder, what his Quintus Libo's opinion on the matter?

---

I am outnumbered 4 - 1. Ideally, we would not fight Iberia at all, but it seems as though we have no choice today. They are on our doorstep, and appear to have no thoughts on their mind but war. To fight, that is not our choice, where to fight is. I would rather fight at the ford above Luvavum then in a fort or city. The consul's actions have made me sick at some times, but make no mistake in thinking this looming war is his fault. It is the will of the Gods, and we have no choice but to obey their commands. Iberia is knocking on our door, we must fight. And I would much rather fight on that on the river near Luvavum then above it in unscouted wilderness. So I ask the Consul, please allow me and my new son to hold the ford and let us fight any Iberian army that attacks us. If Viberi rebels before Iberia can attack, fine by me.

Senators, it seems that in my absense, much has occurred that I did not anticipate. Our attack on Carthage has produced military success, but we have abandoned our gains contrary to the wishes of the Senate and the passed legislation. We have begun expansion once again in the East, even though the Consul campaigned on the platform of holding the border there until those provinces were properly militarized. Now we are yielding the frontier so that the Iberians may gain better routes through which to attack our only ally in the entire known world!

I have seen much of Transalpine Gaul in recent days and in particular the great works our people have erected there have made me think hard about what we are doing. The Republic exists first and foremost to better the lives of Roman citizens. Yet I see the taxes being diverted to developing foreign lands and the sons of noble Romans shedding blood in far away places with no benefit being returned to their families.

The word "Empire" has increasingly crept into the language of the Senate debates. This is not the Rome I knew as a child. This is not the Republic that I have spent my life fighting for. I may be old, but I am not dead yet. I will fight those who seek to injure Rome and her people to my last breath, whether they wear pants or togas.

UPS - The intention was to send you and your new son both to the ford north of Luvavum, so you concur with the consul's strategy then.

Actually..there is an update.

https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a5...acceptance.jpg

Iberia has accepted our notion of goodwill. In abandoning our forts and Viberi, the way is clear for Iberia to move unapposed through Noricum Superior. This is no significant loss, and the new border will be much more easy to maintain and defend. Quintus Libo will be taking up defense of the ford with a nearly consular sized force, assisted by his new son Nero Naso.

EDIT - Then by all means senator Verginius, fight those who would injure Rome, and chastise those who dare use the term 'empire'. This consul has clearly and solely made use of the term 'Republic', because that is what Rome is. If it weren't, you wouldn't be making such remarks here senator, in fact, you wouldn't be here at all.

Let us stop this foolish bantering about Germania, they were in the past, are now, and will always be an alliance of convenience, their existance continues solely to maintain that Iberia and Rome remain at peace, and if necessary, Rome will provide the monetary funding to help them in this cause, but to suddenly pretend that we have been the staunch, unrelenting allies in all ways to these people, people, mind you, who we have never actually met with face to face save through their participation as paid soldiers in Thracian armies, hardly an act considered tolerable of an 'ally', and through the eyes of a singular diplomat.

Furthermore, what can a sixty some year old man who hasn't traveled within a few miles of Gergovia for the last two and a half years possibly know of how well or ill our situation is in east. If the consul did not deem is feasible, correct, and easy to defend the lands we have taken from the foul Seleucids in the east, we would not have taken these lands.

I would dare any man who initially opposed the eastern expansion to deny that these lands have gained the Republic much profit, and will continue to grow and see prosperity in the future. Any such a man could be shut up in a moment by pointing straight to our coffers. Thirty thousand denarii a season senators! The consul made the modest promise of forty thousand by the end of his consulship, but with the continued conquest in Afrika and his extensive monetary building projects underway, including safe harbors, auxilia buildings for farm tax collection, and advanced governmental structures for our larger cities, we will most certainly surpass that amount by the end of his rule.

Look, you stupid clerk. Senator Verginius has served Rome better than you could in a thousand lifetimes. You are the only person who believes that the Consul is a demigod here, as much as you try to convince the rest of us. I have spoken with your master, and even he is hollowed out from his brief session as Consul. But still you act as if everything's just peachy.

Now then, I shall defend the Consul, but in a less glamorous way than you have done, Mister UPS. What was done was done, and I now admit that the money received from controlling the Aegean was a necessary evil. While Roman blood may be shed for bad causes, far more bay have been shed if nothing was done. We would have collapsed financially.

As for the Iberian situation, I believe that we must impose a check on their growing power. For two long they have threatened Rome, and openly challenged us, but we did not take the bait. I think that we must send them a message in return. Perhaps our newly-returned Senator Verginius (welcome back, by the way) could take a little stroll through Iberian territory (not actually conquering anything)? If those fools know anything about us then they will know that this particular Senator is not to be trifled with.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Marcellus! You must not abuse the staff! UPS may just be a lowly clerk, but I can assure you we do not hire fools. Furthermore, he is the spokesman for the First Consul and when he speaks in this capacity, he should be afforded the respect of that high office.

An ally, we have an ally ?

I hear these words on the senate floor and they are justified ! Our only ally, who with great difficulty I managed to convince to help us is being abandoned by us !

By all means, let us open the way for the Iberian invaders. Even now the German king sits in his long hall cursing Roman honour. This course of action is a disgrace for Rome. The mightiest nation in the world, cunningly betraying their only ally. With friends like us, who needs enemies ?

Fortunately, there are still Romans amongs us like Quintus Libo, who bravely volunteers to block the Iberian invasion route. I hope the first consul will reconsider his offer and let him face up to the Iberians.

In the next session, I will once again propose this motion

We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by
Iberia).

and I hope the shame this action brings on us will force you to vote in favour for it then.

Let me make it clear that I do not demand a declaration of war on Iberia. Now all our forces are marching toward India (*glares*) it would not be wise, but we should never let fear guide our motives toward our allies. It's disgraceful !
Once the Iberians see one of the famed Roman legions blocking their way they will surely back down.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: You have to laugh, really. Here we sit - some of us old fools, others - like myself - young fools. And there goes the youthful First Consul running rings around us all.

Gentlemen, he has outsmarted us all again. I have told you before - although some of you professed not to believe me - that I have by no means directed or corrupted our young First Consul. Almost every move I have suggested, he has rejected. Almost every move he has made, I have not anticipated.

Well, now you have a public demonstration. I predicted doom and war with Iberia if we abandoned Viberi. I was even about to make a speech on the point when UPS presented his latest report. Thankfully, I was able to tear it up before it reached your ears. The First Consul has taken a bold step and what is the result? We remain at peace, but with a more defensible frontier. I apologise for my lack of faith in his judgement and congratulate him on his acuity and nerve.

Taking Viberi was always a rather pointless expedition. I am sad to hear Lucius Aemilius proposing two more of the same. Hopefully the Senate will have the sense not to vote for Roman blood to be spilt on conquests for Germania.

I'm afraid I must join the outcry against this action. Viberi must be reoccupied, and the flow of Iberian reinforcements and supplies must be stopped. Perhaps some honor can yet be salvaged from this. The Germans have never been close allies, but no nation may use Roman lands as a highway without permission!

Concessions may not be made to Iberia, which only serve to embolden them. Just what do you suppose they'll think they can get away with next? They have been testing us ever since we made final war upon the Gauls. They started by blocking fords which we intended to traverse. Then they deicded to see if we would let them march through our territory. And now they wish to see if they could intimidate us into withdrawing, and if we would abandon our supposed allies. In each case they were able to accomplish that which they set out to accomplish. We did not dislodge them from that ford. We let them roam through our lands, letting them withdraw at their own leisure. And now this. The next time they try something like this, they must receive a negative response.

More on the Germans. We don't consider them an important ally, but if we are to keep our western frontier peaceful, we need them. For many years now, Iberia has campaigned in Germany, but has failed to accomplish much. As long as this stalemate continues, it is highly unlikely that they will attack us. With their army comitted in Germany, they would be ill-prepared to defend their homelands against us. Of course, that's assuming that they don't think that we would let them attack us without response, and given the way we've been dealing with them so far, I'm not so sure. We should try to establish closer relations with the Germans. First of all, we must stop aiding the Iberians in their war by allowing them to use our lands. A suitable gift should be offered to the Germans to make up for the damage caused so far. A spy should be dispatched to the north to keep an eye on the war. If or when the Germans seem in danger of collapsing, we must intervene.

I offer my wholehearted support to the words of Tiberius Coruncanius !

Senators,

The general on in the area, Quintus Libo, requested that he be allowed to withdraw to his current position and we must respect that.

Thus we have abandoned our settlement. If both the Consul and the general who was ACTUALLY THERE thought this the best move then can any of us say otherwise?

What will happen now is that Iberia will know we have no intent on stopping their campaign against Germainia, they now know we are unwilling to challenge them further and they will pour all available warriors against our allies.

Germainia will be finished in a few years but they will buy us the time to assemble some Legions so that we can face Iberia.

I say that we concentrate our minds upon that question. I would like us to strike the first blow and I support the allocation of Senator Verginius with a force to march into Iberian held lands, let them be at the receiving end of an army on their doorstep.

After what Quintus Libo said, I can do nothing other than support the Consuls actions here.

Let us cast our thoughts forward now and perpare for the unavoidable war to come.

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Manius Coruncanius my understanding of the Consul's withdrawal from Viberi is that it was designed to maintain peace with Iberia, not prepare for war. War with them is by no means inevitable.

I see though that it is. Now that we have shown that we’ll back down, in their minds, we are now weak. They will attack us once Germainia is dealt with.

This is my opinon though and it would be wonderful if I am proved wrong.

However, whilst I believe this and support a march into their lands – fare is fare they’ve done it to us many times – I will back down from openly attacking the Iberians in their lands.

What I want is for us to prepare for war, be ready for it….it is sure to come sooner or later and I do NOT want us to be in the situation we are today. Backing down from a Barbarian culture is NOT the Republican way!

We need to prepare and be in the situation where we can face them off again should they enter our lands AND not only that, but also be ready and able to fight them if the worse comes to worse.

It will not be long before I am finished here in Asia-Minor; I will relish the opportunity to face one of these Barbarians, stare in his eyes and for him to know I will not move, that my line is drawn in the dirt and he shall not pass.

UPS - It is incredibly amusing, this entire argument. Why? Let me make a few facts quite clear, so as to point out the blatant failure in the arguements of those opposing this course.

Issue #1 -
Motion 11.18: The Consul must give Viberia to any nation that will accept it before ending his first season, including hostile nations such as Thrace. If a simple gift of the territory is not enough to immediately dispose of the city, the Consul may add as much money as he deems necessary to the deal.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Cornelius Saturnius, Augustus Sempronius, Valerius Paullus

Now, given these facts, I now see Senators Verginius, Saturninus, and Paullus, all argueing against giving away Viberi. A course they voted to mandate to begin with.

Issue #2 - On a previous date of deliberation, I was asked the following question by senator Numerious Aureolus.

1) Our occupation of Viberi appears to be permanent - what are the Consul's intentions regarding the remaining Thracian settlements?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=257

The responce was, as follows. I have highlighted some blatantly visible points that were directly portrayed to the senate, and the senate very well understood.

Firstly, we never intended to permanently occupy Viberi. Before anybody else brings it up, the consul did not vote in favor of the motion to give it away to anybody who would take it, because this would involve giving it back to thrace, or potentially to Iberia, which would completely defeat the purpose of taking it from Thrace to begin with. In that respect, the only neighbor we could find who was actually willing to take it was Iberia. The consul, finding it better not to completely abandon our German allies to becoming an island amongst the Iberian sea, felt compelled to garrison the settlement instead. This act may be temporary, it may be permanent. With this issue, it is still too early to tell. For now, however, it has provided Senator Quintus Libo with a place to fall back on should Thrace counter his incursion with unexpected force. A judgement shall be passed on the remaining Thracian settlements when the consul feels the bulk of the Thracian military might has been lain to waste through our cross border incursions.

Issue #3 -
Further on in that very same speech. This remark was made.

This senate has a horrible tendency of setting specific, unflexible goals without taking into consideration the fact that all situations change. The consul realises that nothing stays the same season by season, and everything must be taken in stride. There are some generalised goals everywhere. Stabilise the east, conquer Carthage, fend of Thrace, maintain peace with Iberia. How, exactly, these things are to be done when the time comes can only be determined by the circumstances of the moment.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=259

So, quite clearly, there are some questions that arise.

1 - Why do senators who initially voted to give the settlement away, even to an enemy, now vocally and angrily oppose our withdrawel from it?

2 - Does the senate wish to deny the general most active and knowledgeable of the situation, senator Quintus Libo, the ability to move his men to a position he deems more beneficial to the survival of his men and the good of Rome?

3 - Does the senate understand that if Viberi were to be garrisoned, our forts maintained, and Iberia provoked by these actions, that a loss of Quintus Libo and our legion by overwhelming Iberian force would cost us more in soldier's lives than the entire population of Viberi to begin with? What is more valuable to this senate? Roman soldiers or a backwater, worthless, undeveloped settlement barely the size of one of your own singular villas?

4 - Is the senate unable to understand the point made in this argument that all things must be dealt with according to the circumstances of the moment? This senator has pledged to maintain peace with Iberia. If doing so means abandoning a settlement that the senators now voicing their opinion against this act initially voted to give away because the circumstances deem it the most logical way to avoid war, then that is what will be done.

Several of you voted to give away, nay, pay to have this settlement taken off of our hands, yet now you cry out because we are doing exactly that in the name of continued peace with Iberia and the better interests of Rome?

I have one more question...are the senators now in question finished wasting my time?

Things change, clerk. Situations evolve. If the Speaker demands that I hold you in respect of the high office, the least that you could do would be to respect us in return.

UPS - I have merely pointed out the painfully obvious.

UPS, I am offended by your tone of voice and will ask Servius to punish you for this disgraceful behaviour. Adressing your betters like you were first consul yourself ? You are lucky you are under the first consul's protection or I would have you dragged off the floor and beaten to the bone by my lictors !

Now as to your arguments presented.
You speak of logic when what should matter most to the senate is Roman honour and dignity !
A Roman legion is powerful enough to defeat several consular-sized armies, as has been shown repeatedly. All that is required is courage to stand up for our only allies, the Germans.
If Quintus Libo does not believe himself up to the task, I am quite willing to relieve him from his post. I'm not afraid of some barbarians, even with the battered forces I am commanding at present. On the contrary, I consider my army too powerful to confront the Iberians ! I recommend the consul reduce my force to legion strength before letting me take up position guarding Viberi. All I ask is that he places my army at the river crossing between our and Iberian territory at the first oppertunity. That will stop the Iberians from wandering around our territory and make it a lot harder for them to attack the Germans.
I have always opposed giving away captured territory to our enemies. Are the Iberians not powerful enough already ? Must we help them even further ? This course is madness. We should do all we can to empower our allies, the Germans, instead. If Germany is defeated, Iberia will be sure to attack us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Death the destroyer of worlds

If Quintus Libo does not believe himself up to the task, I am quite willing to relieve him from his post.

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You misunderstand my words, Senator. I believe that the First Consul is in charge of our grand strategy at this time. Which he is. If he orders me to withdraw, withdraw I will. He says we must withdraw from Viberi, and since he says this, I respectfully request to move my Legion to the ford at Luvavum. I am afraid he may have misunderstood me also, I do not wish a fort for my troops, just the bridge itself. I feel that I could kill far more Iberians with less Roman life lost if I was there not in a fort.

If you, ex-Consul Lucius would like to journey north and aid me and my army, then I will certainly appreciate your help (though un-needed) and direct you to where you can do the most help... most likely in the rear, where you can guard the women and children. Such is appropriate no?

And besides, we are not even at war with Iberia as of now. Why are so many senators shouting with plans for combat? If all things go well, we will not need to fight at all.

Senator Quintus Libo,
I am pleased my initial praise for you in my speech before last as an example of a brave Roman was appropriate. I interpreted the Consul's previous statement as you requesting to withdraw to Luvavum on your own initiative. Now it is clear you have just been following orders as a good soldier and show a good grasp of tactics. My apologies for this confusion. I am sure the defense of our border is in good hands.

Gentlemen, Thapsus is back in Roman possession. Hopefully this time it will stay there.

(OOC: Lucjan, can you confirm that Oppius just jumped up in age from 16 to 20? Because I could have sworn that he was 16 at the time of the fort battle. :dizzy2:)

(ooc - He was 16, and I can confirm that he has mysteriously jumped 4 years in age. I see no problem with anybody else doing the same though. Perhaps we can attribute it to our little rp? The situation made him mature a bit? lol)

ooc - my Oppius Aemilius? He's been around a while. I wanted him initially when I first chose Valerius Paullus.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senators, I have just received a message from the First Consul to Manius Coruncanius that I thought I should share with the House. Manius's troops had requested to know where they would march after the midterm motions. Servius replied and his response was read by Manius in Pessinus's town square, a copy of it finding its way back to Rome. The message went:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Servius Aemilius

"Tell your men that I appreciate their bravado, and that it is what Rome needs in the current turmoil, but remind them that the time will come soon when Roman lands are so prosperous, and so admired, that they must look to hold their arms defensively, and not raise them in conquest. Remind them that when this time comes, it will be the golden age of Rome, and it will be the world they have built for their sons, but also, the world they must teach their sons to defend. And a man who knows nothing but conquest can never know how to defend his own home, because a man who knows nothing but conquest, at the end of his life realises that in his zeal to take away the homes of another, he has never had a home himself.

Servius"

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(letter from Appius Barbatus)

My fellow Senators, my apologies for what will undoubtedly be a brief and badly-lettered missive. We are on the sea south of the Peleponese, with a heading nearly straight east toward Halicarnassus. We hope to be off the high seas before the winter sets in, but one never knows.

Some of the men have never been aship before, and so there has been quite a bit of retching. However, I'm confident that they will recover their strength in time to take part in sieging and taking what remain of the Seleucid and Ptolemite settlements. They tell me it is a barren, rocky, inhospitable place for the most part, though that always means metals of some kind unless they were extracted by the ancients. This I will explore in some depth if I can amongst my other duties.

Vale.

The best of luck to you and your men, Valerius. May Jupiter be with you.

Would you say that our fleet is strong enough to be uncontested in the Mediterranean?