Gotta have more Mafia [Concluded]

Vote:Wonderland

With such a, well, uneventfull kill we don't have a lot to go on.

:balloon2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Uff. People need to vote this game has started before silver rushers and yet we still have 8 left. Next time I think I'll impose more deadlines.

48 hours to vote or I kill you.

---

I agree. Now that we are in full swing of our mafia obsession, the only way to stop a game from dying really is to impose strict rules on inactivity and have set vote deadlines.

yep, right sort of idea.

Vote: Sigurd F.

He was listed, and got visited by our behind the scenes hero but wasn't in the house presumably.

Alright RR,

Let’s go through this step by step…
We know that mafia members can be killed during the night (Silver Rusher)
The way I understand it a Godfather orders his Mafiosi whom to kill during the night and does not leave his own house during the night.
The Chinese mafia has a Godfather and a Mafioso left in this game. The only two threats left.
I can be neither as proven by combining the evidences from CR and our nightly robber.

We have to slow down and not let Sasaki’s 48 hour time limit scare us into doing something foolish. Time has so far been our friend and our lynching streak is impressive. Let’s get the rest of the mafia.
The mafia must be sitting on needles with only 8 of us left. 6 against 2. If we lynch one of our own it will be 4 against two after next night. If we lynch another one of us, the mafia wins.
The next two lynches is critical.
We still do not have much to work with. Tiberius was quite fast to name me after CR’s execution. He could be the remaining Mafioso. Both doc-bean and B-Ray revealed insight in the Tom & Jerry situation, both naming Lemur as Tom. Only the mafia knew about Lemur’s true identity when he was imprisoned. Since doc_bean has been revealed as the Italian Godfather my suspicions go to B-Ray as our Chinese Godfather since both had intimate knowledge of Lemur’s true identity. It is probably the Godfather that sends the night’s killings to Sasaki and Tiberius sitting on needles didn’t quite catch that the killings had not been posted yet. He took the opportunity to go after the obvious.
From these observations I am bold enough to call Tiberius on this little mistake.

Vote: Tiberius.

Ps: A little adivce to the thief; maybe make a visit to B-Ray's house now that he will have to do his killing himself.

Pps: The Mafia will be all over me now trying to get me killed...

Vote: Sigurd Fafnesbane

I'm absoloutly sure of it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And I'm also sure I can't spell that word.

As the people of this once peaceful town pass by CR's old house, they notice a peculiar statue in front. It is a life size statue of the dearly departed CR, glaring in an admonishing manner at passer-by as if to remind them of something.

CR

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Alright RR,

Let’s go through this step by step…
We know that mafia members can be killed during the night (Silver Rusher)
The way I understand it a Godfather orders his Mafiosi whom to kill during the night and does not leave his own house during the night.
The Chinese mafia has a Godfather and a Mafioso left in this game. The only two threats left.
I can be neither as proven by combining the evidences from CR and our nightly robber.

We have to slow down and not let Sasaki’s 48 hour time limit scare us into doing something foolish. Time has so far been our friend and our lynching streak is impressive. Let’s get the rest of the mafia.
The mafia must be sitting on needles with only 8 of us left. 6 against 2. If we lynch one of our own it will be 4 against two after next night. If we lynch another one of us, the mafia wins.
The next two lynches is critical.
We still do not have much to work with. Tiberius was quite fast to name me after CR’s execution. He could be the remaining Mafioso. Both doc-bean and B-Ray revealed insight in the Tom & Jerry situation, both naming Lemur as Tom. Only the mafia knew about Lemur’s true identity when he was imprisoned. Since doc_bean has been revealed as the Italian Godfather my suspicions go to B-Ray as our Chinese Godfather since both had intimate knowledge of Lemur’s true identity. It is probably the Godfather that sends the night’s killings to Sasaki and Tiberius sitting on needles didn’t quite catch that the killings had not been posted yet. He took the opportunity to go after the obvious.
From these observations I am bold enough to call Tiberius on this little mistake.

Vote: Tiberius.

Ps: A little adivce to the thief; maybe make a visit to B-Ray's house now that he will have to do his killing himself.

Pps: The Mafia will be all over me now trying to get me killed...

---

Wow, you're right Sig, sorry 'bout that...

Unvote: Sig
Vote: Tiberius

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Alright RR,

Let’s go through this step by step…
We know that mafia members can be killed during the night (Silver Rusher)
The way I understand it a Godfather orders his Mafiosi whom to kill during the night and does not leave his own house during the night.
The Chinese mafia has a Godfather and a Mafioso left in this game. The only two threats left.
I can be neither as proven by combining the evidences from CR and our nightly robber.

We have to slow down and not let Sasaki’s 48 hour time limit scare us into doing something foolish. Time has so far been our friend and our lynching streak is impressive. Let’s get the rest of the mafia.
The mafia must be sitting on needles with only 8 of us left. 6 against 2. If we lynch one of our own it will be 4 against two after next night. If we lynch another one of us, the mafia wins.
The next two lynches is critical.
We still do not have much to work with. Tiberius was quite fast to name me after CR’s execution. He could be the remaining Mafioso. Both doc-bean and B-Ray revealed insight in the Tom & Jerry situation, both naming Lemur as Tom. Only the mafia knew about Lemur’s true identity when he was imprisoned. Since doc_bean has been revealed as the Italian Godfather my suspicions go to B-Ray as our Chinese Godfather since both had intimate knowledge of Lemur’s true identity. It is probably the Godfather that sends the night’s killings to Sasaki and Tiberius sitting on needles didn’t quite catch that the killings had not been posted yet. He took the opportunity to go after the obvious.
From these observations I am bold enough to call Tiberius on this little mistake.

Vote: Tiberius.

Ps: A little adivce to the thief; maybe make a visit to B-Ray's house now that he will have to do his killing himself.

Pps: The Mafia will be all over me now trying to get me killed...

---

Great, great analysis. As someone who has been in the mafia twice now I can tell you that a method that has worked well is voting right after the next kills in hopes of starting a bandwagon on an innocent. It worked quite well in SR's game because we had such a bloodthirsty mob. Tiberius is certainly suspicious due to the fact that he voted before the next kills were even posted. Vote: Tiberius

Tiberius has been lynched.

Also, B_Ray has left town (he's in australia actually, hasn't visited in 9 days).

Killed(8):
Discovery1 (Bus Driver)
Silver Rusher (Italian Mafioso + Romeo)
gertgregoor (cop)
Kommodus (mason)
GeneralHankerchief(cop)
SSNeoperestroika(mayor)
Ice(Italian Mafioso)
Ignoramus(prostitute)

Suicide(1):
Drisos (Juliet)

Left Town(2):
Divinus Arma (Jerry)
B_Ray (Mason)


Executed(6):
Orb (Chinese Mafia)
Zalmoxis (doctor)
Lemur (Tom)
doc_bean(Italian Godfather)
Crazed Rabbit (Serial Killer)
Tiberius (Mason)

Alive (6):
Reenk Roink
Cowhead418
evil_maniac_from_mars
Wonderland
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Dutch_Guy

Pm's please.

Once is enough-Sasaki
sorry -CR

We have pretty much established that I am a bad cop, and those who turn up guilty on my investigations are innocent, as has been the trend with my past investigations.

However, Sigurd Fafnesbane has been the only one who has turned up innocent. If I am the bad cop, which is probably true (all my previous investigations were the opposite of the truth), then Sigurd Fafnesbane must also, logically, be the opposite of the investigation.

Lynch Sigurd!

Evil Maniac From mars has been found beaten to death by a chinese kung fu master.

Sigurd was woken during the night by a rustling in his garbage bins. He investigated to find that all of his garbage bins had been stolen. He called the police and the came and searched everywhere for fingerprints but could find none.

Killed(8):
Discovery1 (Bus Driver)
Silver Rusher (Italian Mafioso + Romeo)
gertgregoor (cop)
Kommodus (mason)
GeneralHankerchief(cop)
SSNeoperestroika(mayor)
Ice(Italian Mafioso)
Ignoramus(prostitute)
Evil_maniac from mars (cop)

Suicide(1):
Drisos (Juliet)

Left Town(2):
Divinus Arma (Jerry)
B_Ray (Mason)


Executed(6):
Orb (Chinese Mafia)
Zalmoxis (doctor)
Lemur (Tom)
doc_bean(Italian Godfather)
Crazed Rabbit (Serial Killer)
Tiberius (Mason)

Alive (5):
Reenk Roink
Cowhead418
Wonderland
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Dutch_Guy

Begin voting. 48 hours. With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

Sigurd succeeded in leading us astray last vote, but he won't do it a second time. Vote: Sigurd Fafnesbane

The behind the scenes hero, capturer of Orb, has hit Sig's house twice? :huh:

It shows he was sleeping. He can't be a "active in the night" kind of guy (at least not this night), but it doesn't rule out the possibility of a "Godfather" type figure...

Still, it's not enough to go on either side.

I'm going to courteously abstain as of now, and maybe this whole round (Sasaki, if it is mandatory to vote, just count a vote against myself, because I can't vote against anybody without a good cause).

I also want to see what Sig has to say about B-Ray and Tiberius.

Maybe then I'll decide to vote...

I'll wait on more talks before casting a definite vote myself. However, if time elapses and it's mandatory, I'm gonna' go with vote: Cowhead418.

If there's going to be actual discussion I'll extend the time limit.

I wondered when I;d be bumped off for inactivity.

Far longer than I thought it would take. ~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

I'll wait on more talks before casting a definite vote myself. However, if time elapses and it's mandatory, I'm gonna' go with vote: Cowhead418.

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So, what are your reasons for this vote? If we do not lynch a mafia now, the game is over.

BTW, Sigurd went on and on about how the mafia were going to try and kill him 'now that they knew what his role was.' What role is that Sigurd? By not telling us, you are just making it look more and more like you are the Chinese Godfather. What is this special ability? Why is it hard for the mafia to kill you? Why did EMFM's investigation turn out innocent for you but guilty for all the villagers he investigated? He was a cop so he wouldn't lie about it if it helps the village. You also accused B-Ray of being the Godfather and he has been out of town for nine days. Both people you accused last round turned out to be masons. Care to explain yourself?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B_Ray

But the statement that someone else was going to be happy about his situation may indicate that *he* is Tom (or, possibly, Jerry, but Tom seems much more likely). If that's the case, he's innocent.

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My whole case against B-Ray was the Tom & Jerry situation.
When Lemur was imprisoned the mafia got to know who he was.
Only two players voiced the possibility that Lemur was Tom and that was B_Ray and doc_bean.

And I have to confess now that the game is nearly over, that I am a nightly wanderer.
I am the terrorist. I can target a person at night and we will both be killed.
Not a very helpful role unless I take with me a mafia at the exact right moment during the game. But there is a catch. I have only a 50/50 chance of succeeding. If the person I target is not killable i.e a Godfather, I will not succeed whatsoever.
I have suspected B_Ray for quite some time and even made an attempt at him.
When I did not succeed I was either a victim of the 50/50 or he was not killable at night.
Now that we know that Tiberius and B_Ray were Masons I am practically stumped.
What happened last night also has me stumped. I don’t really know what happened.
Seeing my logic falling apart I wanted to make amends and go for the least likely target just to see if I could get a result; so I targeted Cowhead418.
I did not succeed of course but according to the results of night 7 I didn’t even leave the house.
Either Cowhead418 is the thief which blocked my role or the 50% chance will show up as if I never left the house if I fail on the die roll.
I always believed Reenk Roink was the Thief, he gave a few hints of this during the game and you still do RR. Seeing that I was targeted by the thief also last night makes me confused as my target that night was B_Ray.
I am really stumped right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

I am really stumped right now.

---

But now I am not! :2thumbsup:

This is excellent Sig, you've helped us a lot. :2thumbsup:

I think we've finally got it...

I must confess, I am the hobo. Read it again: hobo. I'm quite sick of all the slander and this "thief" label... :veryangry: :sad:

Anyway, I don't know why the mafia are so inept not to go after the exposer of Orb and hint giver on other matters. :smug:

After all, I don't know how more conspicuous I could have been:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=125

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=142

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=248

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=324

Anyway, you made a very good point last time (though in retrospect, it obviously wasn't all that it was cracked up to be).

But there was still something fishy, so I raided your house again for more beer, newspapers, and clues.

Now that we know who you are, we can concentrate on who is the mafia/mafia related dude.

Cowhead418, Wonderland, and Dutch_Guy are without alibi's as of now, but we need more clues.

Hopefully they will also confess their roles... :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

My whole case against B-Ray was the Tom & Jerry situation.
When Lemur was imprisoned the mafia got to know who he was.
Only two players voiced the possibility that Lemur was Tom and that was B_Ray and doc_bean.

And I have to confess now that the game is nearly over, that I am a nightly wanderer.
I am the terrorist. I can target a person at night and we will both be killed.
Not a very helpful role unless I take with me a mafia at the exact right moment during the game. But there is a catch. I have only a 50/50 chance of succeeding. If the person I target is not killable i.e a Godfather, I will not succeed whatsoever.
I have suspected B_Ray for quite some time and even made an attempt at him.
When I did not succeed I was either a victim of the 50/50 or he was not killable at night.
Now that we know that Tiberius and B_Ray were Masons I am practically stumped.
What happened last night also has me stumped. I don’t really know what happened.
Seeing my logic falling apart I wanted to make amends and go for the least likely target just to see if I could get a result; so I targeted Cowhead418.
I did not succeed of course but according to the results of night 7 I didn’t even leave the house.
Either Cowhead418 is the thief which blocked my role or the 50% chance will show up as if I never left the house if I fail on the die roll.
I always believed Reenk Roink was the Thief, he gave a few hints of this during the game and you still do RR. Seeing that I was targeted by the thief also last night makes me confused as my target that night was B_Ray.
I am really stumped right now.

---

Alright, that makes sense. As of now, there are five of us left, two mafia and three villagers. This means that if we do not lynch a mafia each of the next two rounds we are done for. If what you say is true and you are the terrorist, then this means that you and I are villagers while two of Dutch_Guy, Wonderland, and Reenk Roink are the remaining mafiosi. I realize that now I must confess my role. I am the vigilante. My role says that I am armed with a gun with a single bullet, and therefore I only have one chance to kill. A few rounds ago I took a chance and decided to kill my number one suspect - Ice. It worked and I managed to finish off the Italian family.

This however, brings up another point. There was only one kill that night, and the thief targeted Ignoramus. We know that Ig was the prostitute and not the mafia, so this means that either the mafia took the night off or that they also targeted Ice. I believe you because your explanation fits your actions during the game, but we have to be absolutely sure of the third villager. Right now it doesn't matter whether I am killed by the mafia next round or not, because if we figure out who is the third innocent, then they are done for.

Looking at the current situation, I'm now certain that you and me are innocent and that Dutch_Guy is a mafia. He has laid low all game and his reasoning for his votes has been very spotty. As for Reenk Roink, take a look at these posts:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

I don't know why you all are voting against doc_bean...

He was the one that expanded on the work of the heroic beer-borrower and found Orb guilty.

Certainly there was flawed logic this time, but that doesn't make him guilty at all. In fact, due to his previous action, I would say that he is the least likely among us to be a mafia...

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Um, guys. If there is one person more innocent then doc_bean it's Crazed Rabbit

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

I don't think you peeples should judge the guy who was at Orb's house so harshly. I mean come on, "thief" is just not right at all. This guy probably is dirt poor, and needs to live on what others waste. If the world were a more generous and fair place, he wouldn't have to go through others trash. Heck, he probably only took the newspapers to use as bedsheets, and also to rummage through the classifieds. Not only that, but this guy chose the right house and gave us an incredible clue on who the real criminals are. And yet he is demonized...

This guy is a hero!

Society has failed this noble, noble individual...

---

Now, realize that if RR were mafia, he'd be in the Chinese mafia and therefore would want to kill the Italian Godfather, not protect him. Also, the third quote gives evidence to him being the thief. RR also refers to the thief as 'the hero behind the scenes.'

About Wonderland, look at this quote:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Oh shoot, sorry about the inactivity guys. Nearly forgot about the game, school and all has really been draining me this semester. My apologies.

---

I took a quick check through the entire thread, and Wonderland did not post at all between pages 3 and 10. Perhaps he is telling the truth and was not able to participate because of school, but remember that even in his absense the mafia can still operate (and it also could have been deliberate in an attempt to throw off suspicion). Though if Wonderland is a regular mafioso, the godfather would have to do the killing himself and this would tag Dutch_guy as the Chinese Godfather. If Wonderland is the Godfather, however, I'm not sure how this would work out. Would Dutch_Guy then plan his own kills? Either way, I'm thoroughly convinced that DG and Wonderland are the remaining mafia.

EDIT: I just checked Wonderland's status and he was Private Messaging. Now, this may be entirely irrevelant, but it could also mean that he is PMing his co-mafioso in order to find a way out of this fiasco.

Unvote: Sigurd Fafnesbane
Vote: Dutch_Guy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cowhead418

Also, the third quote gives evidence to him being the thief. RR also refers to the thief as 'the hero behind the scenes.

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Hobo!

Anyway, Dutch_Guy is the best bet we have now.

Wonderland has an alibi (not being here), and while you haven't confessed your role, and I still am suspicious, Dutch_Guy is the best option.

Vote: Dutch_Guy

:hanged:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Hobo!

Anyway, Dutch_Guy is the best bet we have now.

Wonderland has an alibi (not being here), and while you haven't confessed your role, and I still am suspicious, Dutch_Guy is the best option.

Vote: Dutch_Guy

:hanged:

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Hellooooo... Check out this tidbit from my last post...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cowhead418

I realize that now I must confess my role. I am the vigilante. My role says that I am armed with a gun with a single bullet, and therefore I only have one chance to kill. A few rounds ago I took a chance and decided to kill my number one suspect - Ice. It worked and I managed to finish off the Italian family.

---

Oh, and my apologies, hobo.:laugh4:

These last posts have convinced me, my suspicions about Reenk Roink is correct and from your excellent reasoning I now see the light.

Vote:Dutch_Guy

Reenk Roink, after we execute Dutch_Guy, may I suggest that you make a visit to Wonderland's house? He did not put any reasoning behind his last vote and is the only one without an alibi.

Dutch Guy has been executed.

As the villagers pass the house of Evil_Maniac From Mars, they find a note affixed to the door.

"Fools! The Mafia is still at large. Was the sacrifice of this noble policeman for nothing? Dutch_Guy is all well and good, but have you not seen the previous investigation results at the Town Hall?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

As the villagers pass the house of Evil_Maniac From Mars, they find a note affixed to the door.

"Fools! The Mafia is still at large. Was the sacrifice of this noble policeman for nothing? Dutch_Guy is all well and good, but have you not seen the previous investigation results at the Town Hall?"

---

Well, we will all find out after the results of this execution. If DG is not a mafia, then the village loses and Sigurd played us all for fools. If he is, then Wonderland is the remaining mafioso and we win. Your investigation result is strange. I can only hope that Sigurd was telling the truth. His story certainly fits his actions throughout the game, though if he is a mafia then this is the work of a criminal mastermind who is excellent at defending himself...

Sorry about lack of story...I'm not much of a writer:

Cowhead418 and Reenk Roink have both been killed.

Mafia Win!

Killed(11):
Discovery1 (Bus Driver)
Silver Rusher (Italian Mafioso + Romeo)
gertgregoor (cop)
Kommodus (mason)
GeneralHankerchief(cop)
SSNeoperestroika(mayor)
Ice(Italian Mafioso)
Ignoramus(prostitute)
Evil_maniac from mars (cop)
Cowhead418(vigilante)
Reenk Roink (hobo)

Suicide(1):
Drisos (Juliet)

Left Town(2):
Divinus Arma (Jerry)
B_Ray (Mason)


Executed(7):
Orb (Chinese Mafia)
Zalmoxis (doctor)
Lemur (Tom)
doc_bean(Italian Godfather)
Crazed Rabbit (Serial Killer)
Tiberius (Mason)
Dutch guy (doctor)

Alive (2):
Wonderland (Chinese Mafioso)
Sigurd Fafnesbane (Chinese Godfather)

Damnit! Well, I must say - hats off to you Sigurd. You are excellent at defending yourself. I'm not sure many other mafiosi could have come up with a story that fits their actions as precisely as yours did.:oops: Sorry DG...

What the hell!

I went out to buy some unsalted butter and now I'm dead! :no:

Damn Sig, you managed to convince me and the rest twice of your innocence...

And Wonderland, such a cool guy the mafia!?!

Gah!

Nicely done.

Sorry Dutch_guy...

It was all good fun.
I hope I didn't leave any grudges against me during this game.
We are all friends in here. ~:pat:

I am glad it is over though, I have never lied out my teeth to this extent before. It makes you feel funny.

Heh, well played Sigurd, never thought I'd see the day considering my inactivity. And sorry Reenk, I was randomly chosen of course, and quite frankly would rather have been villager. In any case, it's good to be a Chinese mafioso right now. Hats off to Sigurd for everything, he handled the whole game himself.

Excellent job, guys. Guess we're even Sigurd. :evil:

Ok, just have to know the question now: Who rubbed me off?

It was a fun game, aside from a really dragging out in the middle.

Write up:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My initial risk of characters/roles:

Sigurd Fafnesbane chinese godfather
Orb chinese mafia
Wonderland chinese mafia

doc_bean Italian godfather
Silver Rusher Italian mafia-romeo
Ice italian mafia-blackmailer

Crazed Rabbit serial killer

B_Ray mason
Kommodus mason
Tiberius mason

Lemur Tom
Divinus Arma Jerry

GeneralHankerchief regular cop
evil_maniac_from_mars insane cop
gertgreggor naive cop

Zalmoxis doctor
Dutch_Guy doctor

Ignoramus prostitute
discovery1 bus driver
Cowhead418 vigilante
Drisos Juliet
Reenk Roink hobo
SSNeoperestroika mayor

Most of the roles have been explained already.

Ice was the blackmailer, he had the possibility of being able to control the mayor if he discovered him. He never used this ability, it's possible I forgot to include it in my pm to him?

EMFM was the insane cop, all his search results came up the opposite of truth. gertgreggor was the naive cop, all his results came up innocent. The bus driver could switch two people for a night. The masons could choose one of their own to protect at night. The godfathers, tom&jerry, and the serial killer were immune to night killings. Cowhead had one bullet as he explained.


I believed this list to be balanced and looking at the result of the game I think it was. A third of the town was killers but they were working against eachother, and the town had quite a few power roles (I expected Reenk Roinks role to be weak, and yet he turned out to be one of the main players. In contrast the police accomplished next to nothing).
Round One:

• GH investigates Wonderland (guilty-Chinese Mafia)
• Crazed rabbit kills discovery1
• Dutch_Guy protects Divinus Arma
• Reenk Roink blocks/trashes Divinus Arma
• masons: tiberius's house
• Ignoramus sleeps with GH
• evil maniac investigates general hankerchief (insane cop) (guilty)
• gertgreggor investigates general hankerchief (naive cop) (innocent)
• Chinese mafia kill silver rusher (romeo) so Drisos suicides
• discovery1 switches Lemur and Ice
• Italian mafia kill Tiberius by choking

With the two mafia groups and the serial killer there was a possibility of 3 kills per night, ending the game fast. I counted on the two doctors + roleblocker+nighttime immunity to prevent that and in fact there were never 3 kills, often only 1 or zero.

General Hankerchief discovered Wonderlands guilt. If he had chosen to reveal this it could quite possibly have turned the tide of the game, as wonderland survived.

The chinese mafia also lucked out, bumping off Silver Rusher, one of the Italian Mafia.

The Italian Mafia on the other hand were foiled by the protective ability of the Masons. The story of the foiled attempt indicates the mason aspect somewhat. This was the only round that had significant writeup, I didn't have the time really and the people who sent in lengthy writeups almost always got blocked by RR or were trying to kill someone who was immune. A pity.

EMFM gets a guilty read on GH while Gert gets an innocent read. They naturally choose to keep quite about it however.

The first round there was mostly a discussion of what the possible roles could be, it wasn't until nearly the bottom of the page that GH started a wagon on Lemur (tom). Made DA job rather easy. I was slightly displeased, two features I'd worked into the game (Romeo&Juliet, Tom&Jerry) were a bust.

The mayor decided to save Lemur temporarily.


Round Two:

• GH investigates gertgreggor (innocent)
• Reenk Roink trashes Orb
• evil_maniac_from_mars investigates ssneo (insane cop) (guilty)
• ignoramus sleeps with GH
• Crazed Rabbit kills Kommodus
• CHinese mafia attempt to kill crazed rabbit with orb
• Dutch_guy protects crazed rabbit
• gertgregoor investigates doc_bean (naive cop) (innocent)
• doc_bean kills gertgregoor
• masons: tiberius's house

Reenk Roinks effectiveness is shown this turn. When I made public the fact that DA's house had been trashed on the first day it had been for effect mainly. This round the fact that there were only two kills and Orb had been robbed made it clear he was mafia. doc_bean was quick to point this out and Orb was lynched.

EMFM has his 2nd guilty result on SSneo and votes for him before realizing how suspicious this looks.

Reenk Roink pretty much reveals his role, it's surprising to me that he lasted as long as he did given the danger he was to the mafia.

Orb confesses and attempts to finger emfm in a last ditch effort. No one buys it.

Round three:

• zalmoxis protects doc_bean
• masons: tiberius's house
• Crazed Rabbit picks doc_bean (unkillable)
• dutch_guy protects doc_bean
• GH investigates evil_maniac_form_mars
• wonderland kills generalH
• Ignoramus sleeps with GH
• evil maniac investigates divinus arma
• Ice kills generalH

Only one death this round, both the mafias went after generalH and CR picked an unkillable.

The big drama this round was EMFM revealing his incorrect results. He did this before the kills were posted, if he had waited things could have gone quite differently. As it was, GeneralH was proved innocent and EMFM lost much credibility, so much so that when he got an "innocent" (read:guilty) result on Sigurd it was ignored.

The revote on Lemur also took place (the mayor role is a bit clunky imo, don't think I'll include it in the future) and DA finally got to actually make an argument against Lemur.

Sigurd noticed that Zalmoxis had been lurking and got him lynched. This was the round where things started to slow down activity wise.

Round four:

• Ice kills SSneo
• Reenk Roink trashes Crazed Rabbits house
• crazedrabbit kills ignoramus
• masons:B_Ray
• Dutch Guy protects doc_bean
• wonderland kills doc bean

Once again only one kill, Reenk Roink saves Ignoramus and Dutch_Guy saves doc_bean (although doc_bean was already night immune).

It was immedietly noticed that the same logic that worked for Orb should work for Crazed rabbit.

Crazed Rabbit defended himself very well and with some help managed to turn suspicion against his accuser doc_bean.

Round five:

• reenk roink trashes ignoramus house
• ice kills crazed rabbit (fail)
• cowhead kills ice
• ignoramus sigurd fafns (foiled)
• crazed rabbit kills sigurd (fail)
• emfm investigates reenk roink

The only kill this round comes from the Vigilante, Cowhead418, who picked out Ice, the last italian mafioso. Well spotted.

Sigurd manages to get Crazed Rabbit lynched, however before execution he confesses and incriminates Sigurd with some very accurate evidence.

Round six:

• dutch_guy protects tiberius
• ignoramus sleeps with sigurd
• reenk roikn trashes sigurd
• wonderland kills ignoramus
• emfm investigates sigurd (innocent)

I was certain Sigurd was going to be lynched this round as CR had effectively proved his guilt and EMFM had a "guilty" result on him.

However Tiberius voted for Sigurd before the killings, and Sigurd was able to use this against him along with some other great arguments and Tiberius was lynched. I decided that B_Ray had been absent too long (9 days) and as such was a proved innocent and it would be best if he left town.

Round seven:

• dutch_guy protects cowhead
• Wonderland kills emfm
• Reenk Roink trashes sigurd

Reenk Roink blocks sigurd as he did the previous round, however this is ineffective as the underling does the dirty work. No one seems to pick up on the fact that the cop with the "guilty result" on sigurd bit the dust.

With 5 left the mafia only have to lynch one more time to win.

Sigurd is under suspicion early but with a rather brilliant and entirely fabricated role claim manages to sway Cowhead and Reenk Roink over. Sigurd lays down the final vote on Dutch Guy and the Chinese Mafia Win.

Arrgh! So much power, so close, and yet so wasted. :wall:

Brilliant Sigurd, Brilliant. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Excellent job, guys. Guess we're even Sigurd. :evil:

Ok, just have to know the question now: Who rubbed me off?

---

I believe I used Ice's kill, though it might have been Wonderland's.

Anyway, I think this game was very interesting. Although the most exciting part for me was the endgame with just town versus mafia. The middle part kind of stretched on and the beginning was kind of confusing.

One of my intentions was to try out a lot of roles. I'd like to hear from people one how enjoyable their role was.

The vigilante, Serial Killer, and roleblocker are I think definite roles to bring back. I definitly won't use Tom&Jerry, Romeo&juliet, the prostitute (unless with myddrals modification), the mayor, or the insane/naive cops. I'm not sure about the masons. Kommodus was killed early, B_Ray left, and Tiberius was inactive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Excellent job, guys. Guess we're even Sigurd. :evil:

Ok, just have to know the question now: Who rubbed me off?

---

That was me =).

Gah! I originally figured that Sigurd was mafia due to EMFM's investigation results, but he presented such a persuasive argument... Oh well, at least I didn't waste my bullet.:2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Ignoramus sleeps with GH

---

Quote:

---

ignoramus sleeps with GH

---

Quote:

---

Ignoramus sleeps with GH

---

Something you want to tell me, Ig? :laugh4:

I thought that the best way was to pick one person and see if a pattern emerged of that person's activites during the night. I did manage to get Sigurd, but unfortuantely I was killed the same turn.

I was right, but nobody ever listens to the martian, nooooooooo....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Something you want to tell me, Ig? :laugh4:

---

'tis why I chose him for detective in the Godfather. I thought that was mega-weird.

Finding a pattern makes sense though...except everyone who is out at night will be out every night.

GAH! Somehow, 'I told you so' just doesn't cut it.

You silly villagers fell for Sigurd twice! I mean, holy cow! :dizzy2: Gaarrrggghhhhhhhhh

To Sasaki, great game. I enjoyed my role, though I didn't get to do much with it. Next time...

Looking thorugh the writeup, I notice I had both mafias after me! Haha to them!

I guess I should have noticed Reenk and gone after him. Kind of funny that I picked two godfathers out of my 5 attempts.

Crazed Rabbit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

'tis why I chose him for detective in the Godfather. I thought that was mega-weird.

Finding a pattern makes sense though...except everyone who is out at night will be out every night.

---

Like I said before, I slightly misunderstood the rules in SR's game, hence my strange/stupid behaviour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Like I said before, I slightly misunderstood the rules in SR's game, hence my strange/stupid behaviour.

---

No worries m8...remember you're talking to the guy who claimed to be the detective when he wasn't and promptly got himself killed by the mafia :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

I am glad it is over though, I have never lied out my teeth to this extent before. It makes you feel funny.

---

Yeah, I totally know the feeling.

Anyway, that was a well-played endgame. I'm surprised you got everyone to fall for you. Very clever story you came up with there. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kommodus

Yeah, I totally know the feeling.

---

Personally I enjoyed the hell out of lying and getting everyone to believe me :laugh4:

Well thanks guys, you go to bed and wake up dead. I didn't even get the chance to defend myself for crying out loud! Damn time difference !

I would have at least tried to persuade you guys what role I had in the game, which might even have worked - who knows...

Now you guys simply opened up the door for Sigurd to bandwagon me, mafia style.

Argh, frustrating really.

:balloon2:

Nice game Sasaki, albeit somewhat confusing at times :2thumbsup:

*cheers*

We did it, guys!

Champagne all round!

This is what happens when you lynch Orb.

I guess a writeup is in order...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Memoirs of a Godfather

When the chance presented itself of another Mafia game for one that was killed in the very first round of the previous game, I jumped at it with eager anticipation.
When the first PM arrived from Sasaki, I was at a seminar with the boring title: Implementing a MS SQL 2005 db; course 2779.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaki

You are the Chinese Godfather. Your mafia henchmen are Orb and Wonderland. You have recently emigrated to this town and are trying to remove the Italian mafia from it. To win you must eliminate all the townspeople and the Italian Mafia members. Be advised they will be trying to eliminate you as well. However they don’t know your identity just as you do not know theirs.

As the Godfather you will be the one to communicate to me which person you plan to kill and how (after discussion with your henchmen of course). Kills will be made with a weapon of some kind, nothing too elaborate. You must also tell me which of your henchmen will be making the kill. I’d like this to take place inside the town. Also, unlike your henchmen, you cannot be killed at night (in other words the only way for you to die is by being lynched).

---

Needless to say I spent the remaining time of the course chatting and contemplating strategies with my henchmen.
We agreed on a shortlist of victims since communication between ourselves could be limited. We started off quite good with each of my henchmen suggesting a victim from this shortlist. I made the final call as to whom the target was and the henchman suggesting this target got the kill.



Round 1.

On our shortlist was Crazed Rabbit and Silver Rusher (and several others). My British Henchman wanted to get Crazed Rabbit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orb

I reckon Crazed Rabbit, we could frame it neatly on a WWII expert (CR is placed in a Panzer i.e. Flammenkatze filled with oil and the murderer drops a match in.

---

My West coast American henchman wanted Silver Rusher:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wonderland

For our first kill, I'd go with Silver Rusher from your list, if you and Orb also agree. I would also consider taking out General Handkerchief pretty early on too, heh

---

I decided Silver Rusher would be our first kill and Wonderland performed the kill.

We got lucky, twice. Not only did we kill a rivalling mafia henchman it resulted in another kill because of the Romeo&Juliette roles. Two flies with one swing. This seemed to be a good game for us.

At this time I contemplated on cooperation with the other Mafia since the chance of marking the same targets were quite high. I would send PM’s to the other mafia via Sasaki. But I thought the better of it.

Lemur was bandwagoned and we all joined in. It was too easy.

At this time I spent some time in the chat room and was greatly disappointed at Silver Rusher for revealing the mafia organisation to some of the active players. Amongst them I noticed General_H and later doc_bean. One of our strong advantages was that nobody knew there were two organisations totalling 6 mafia members. Nobody but the Italian mafia knew we existed and they would not voice the possibility that there were two organisations because that would mark them as mafia to us. We had decided that we would not pursue the other mafia before the existence of two mafias was a certainty. This situation came sooner than we had anticipated.
I got a PM from Sasaki about this time:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaki

Your informants in the prison have information for you regarding the prisoner Lemur. His role is "Tom", he is neither pro-town nor pro-mafia, his winning condition is getting his arch-nemesis "Jerry" lynched.

---

Round 2

We decided to go for Crazed Rabbit this turn with Orb as the killer. As fortune struck in round 1 this turn gave us nothing but misery. The hobo decided to pay Orb a visit which unlocked one of the hobo’s powers in this particular game. To distinguish the nightly active with those that slept during the night.
I got this from Sasaki:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaki

Orb was detained and unable to make the hit.

---

From this we deduced that the hobo must be a role blocker, a truly powerful role. Since we thought we dealt with the thief here we also believed this role could not be killed during the night.
When GH announced that he thought Orb was innocent I breathed again. Nobody noticed the noticeable.
Of course my main opponent, doc_bean had to give voice to the obvious making himself a target. He got a spot on our list.
General_H was orchestrating the bandwagon against Orb and leading it with threats and vigour. This was suspicious in our eyes and we believed he was one of the Italian mafia. Orb got many votes this turn and we agreed that the likelihood of him getting lynched this round was quite high. I therefore voted for him. A little late it seemed as he had just confessed. Luckily nobody noticed.
Orb names General_H, Lemur and doc_bean as mafia just before he is lynched.

Then something interesting is played out. EMFM confesses his role as a cop naming General_H and NeoPerestroika as Mafia. Neo is promptly put on our list.
When General_H attacks EMFM we know that GH is sitting on info that ordinary townspeople do not know; The identity of the two roles Tom&Jerry. Our suspicions of him are reinforced and he is marked as our next target. We believe EMFM is a cop.

Lemur is on trial and we are asked to vote for his lynch. I first join the bandwagon (this is such a fun word), I suddenly got worried that the game would end if Tom was lynched. I therefore cooked up a story about the situation being fishy and changed my vote.
It had a bonus effect. The bandwagon was effectively turned by this and we got some additional information.
First of all Divinus Arma marked himself as Jerry by insisting to continue the bandwagon on getting Lemur lynched. He became a no-threat to us.
I suggested this possibility just to get it confirmed by Lemur calling me crazy.
One more tibit of information leaked in just as we started round 3.
doc_bean did his major mistake in this game and we noticed of course.
He replied to the crazy post of Lemur with this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doc_bean

So who is your archenemy then ?

---

This was not his original post. You’ll notice that it has been edited in the thread.
The original post was this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doc_bean

So who is Jerry then ?

---

This marked him as knowing the identity of Lemur’s role and we knew he was in the mafia.


Round 3

The remaining Chinese mafia (hereafter named as the Triad) performed the last wish of our beloved henchman. We set a mark on General_H and Wonderland would perform the kill.
General_H died all right but we knew it was not us who made the kill as our killing method was not used.
This was the PM I sent to Sasaki:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

After a difficult decision and by advise of my henchman…
The Chinese target for tonight is GeneralHankerchief; hit man is Wonderland

Method:
General_h has just finished his dinner at his favourite Italian restaurant and is about to leave the establishment. As he grabs the handle of the entrance door a black car rolls past with windows down and tommyguns sticking out. Glass and wood exploding all around him he feels the bullet impacts shake his body… As the car speeds off a note is dropped out of the window.
“This was for Orb”

---

The result was quite surprising and yet satisfactory. We got rid of another cop.
We still believed EMFM was a cop but disregarded him as a threat to us. We believed he was the paranoid cop, but this assessment nearly ended the game for me at a later round.

Divinus Arma drums up the bandwagon against Lemur again to get his arch nemesis lynched.
Then Ignoramus decides something that could get quite dangerous if we didn’t quench it right there and then. We had no overview of the possible roles here and if all decided to reveal their roles the mafia would stick out as a sore thumb. I quenched it right there and then and diverted the attention by drumming up a bandwagon on Zalmoxis. This catches on and votes starts coming in against Zalmoxis. This is the turning point were I start searching for a possible role to be revealed at a critical moment, which would later be a lifesaver.

As the two bandwagons gain popularity B_Ray does what doc_bean has done before him and names Lemur as Tom. No regular player knows about this yet and I try to give a few hints about this to the townsfolk but nobody seems to notice.
Round 3 finishes and the roles of Lemur, Divinus Arma and Zalmoxis is revealed and three more players leave the game. A great day for the mafia especially since one of them was a doctor. One less player working against our agenda. I must admit I was a little worried that if someone targeted me one night I would turn up as magically saved and without a doctor that would be suspicious. My opponent doc_bean obviously had the same thought as he mentions in a post unnoticed by the rest that he hoped that a nurse exist amongst the roles left in the game.


Round 4


This is the turn we try to get one of the Italian mafia more specifically doc_bean.
If he was the Godfather we would drum up a bandwagon mentioning the missing doctor. This also meant we would have to get the other mafia pretty soon too or he would be on us like a hound.
My pm to Sasaki:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

Night 4 in Gotta have more mafia…

The target for this night is doc_bean , henchman: Wonderland
Method:
Tommyguns blazing in a drive by shooting at an Italian restaurant and a note, “This is for Orb”

---

I can’t remember getting a pm telling us that doc_bean is not killable at night but we knew when the kill was not posted the following morning. We knew that he was the Italian godfather. Crazy Rabbit was robbed and it would be easy to get him lynched this round, but our agenda was to take out doc_bean. I didn’t know how to frame him yet, but CR took care of that for us, well even if it was thin it put doubts into the hearts of the townsfolk.
The voting raged back and forth between doc_bean, CR and EMFM getting Sasaki’s counting all mixed up.
I noticed that my henchman was not participating and I sent him a note:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

…
The time is near for us to get rid of the other mafia since the number of villagers are dropping. Hopefully this coming night will see 3 kills. That is if we actually are able to lynch someone in the current round. If you jump on the bandwagon for doc_bean I will cast the final vote on him.

---

Wonderland cast a vote for doc_bean and I followed up by changing my initial vote for Crazed Rabbit. Ignoramus followed up and closed the deal. In my next note to my henchman I revealed the following:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

Greetings Triad,

We got the Godfather of our opponents. doc_bean was the unkillable Godfather of the Italian mafia. Celebrations are in order…

This was an interesting turn.
Ice seems pretty guilty for defending doc_bean and bandwagoning Crazy Rabbit as fast as he did.
Cowhead turned around on a penny getting Sasaki’s counting mixed up. doc_bean had really only 5 votes against him at the end.
Reenk Roink refrained from actually voting and that is suspicious. B-Ray never posted during round 4.
That leaves only 10 votes but Sasaki’s tally showed 12 votes.

It could be that Reenk Roink is the naïve cop and only get innocent results. I believe EMFM is the paranoid cop getting only guilty results.
Ignoramus claims he is the prostitute.

That leaves
Crazed Rabbit
Cowhead418
Tiberius
B_Ray
Dutch_Guy

One of them is the thief and the other our partner in crime (vigilante).
Some of these should be masons since we have already killed one.
Is anyone up for analysing voting habits to sift out the masons? No?

Anyway, who should we go for in round 5

---

All though Reenk Roink had been giving hints about being the hobo (thief), I got suspicious of his assertions of innocent people. Maybe he was the naïve cop getting innocent results?
That put me off his trail and he seemed like a no-threat.
Doc_bean spilled the … well … beans and I didn’t appreciate that at all; telling the townspeople that a godfather is immune to night kills.
This would be the start of my downfall.



Round 5

This is the round that I made a few mistakes. I probably should have waited trying to get Ice, the last of the mafia. As it appeared he got killed but not by us as my pm to Sasaki will show:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

I have contacted my henchman with a list of possible kills. He has as of yet not made a reply...

I will therefore have to make that call without advice.
Target: Ice
Killer: Wonderland
Method: Kung Fu technique that breaks neck. The target never knew what happened.

---

Ice is killed with a single bullet to the head. I am starting to believe that Sasaki is not using our methods at all, and that I have been writing them needlessly.
I decided to get our nightly active player, Crazed Rabbit lynched and luckily our Prostitute got visited the night before making my case against CR stronger. I really hoped someone else would drum up the bandwagon for me but two whole days passed with no one posting.
I decided to go for it, a classic mistake for a mafia.
The bandwagon got rolling and everybody joined.
We got majority but Crazed Rabbit got in a major punch line before he was lynched, naming me as not killable by night. The time had come to pull out my made up character which by the way is not made up but a real role in variations of mafia games.
The time had come to get rid of potentially dangerous players, I decided that our Prostitute had to go as she could spot my henchman and give the word to the townspeople. I hoped that I could draw the attention to myself and get all remaining investigators to target me.
My note to my henchman:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

Greetings Triad,

The game is probably ending for me soon…
I made some mistakes during the last phases of this game.
By killing the last mafia and getting the serial killer lynched it is up to us to finish off the rest of the townies. The only problem is this, they have all roles.
I believe there are at least two masons left. They know each other’s roles. There are probably two cops left, the paranoid and the gullible.
Crazy Rabbit has announced that he tried to target me last round. Either the people believe him or not.
…
Another problem is the two publicly announced roles, the prostitute and the cop.
If the prostitute ‘investigates’ you, Wonderland, you come up as guilty. If the thief decides to rob your house you are blocked and found guilty.
Two players that should not be left alone in this game.
Hopefully I will draw the attention of both the next round. The thief should go first if he is killable at night (according to the wiki links he can’t be killed by the mafia).
Then the prostitute, then the masons.

Now the roles,
I suspect the following names having the role;

Reenk Roink – naïve Cop,
Evil maniac from mars – paranoid Cop,
Ignoramus – Prostitute,
Tiberius – Thief,
CowHead – Mason,
Dutch_Guy – Mason,
B_Ray – ? Could be the mason instead of Cowhead or Dutch guy. If there are 3 masons left we have a serious problem.

---

We had a serious problem at our hands and we had really no chance to pull it off.

Tiberius is a little triggerhappy and casts a vote against me before the next round. This made a little opening as this is also a classic mafia mistake. You are the mafia not performing the kill this night and the narrator is delaying the posting and you drop by with your mandatory vote not realising that the killings has not been posted yet.



Round 6

I send my pm to Sasaki naming Ignoramus as our target and Wonderland as the killer.
Somehow Sasaki get things mixed up since I also mention that Wonderland is taking a break due to his studies.
The thief/hobo makes a visit to my house as I hoped he would but I come up as one who has been out during the night. I am thinking; that can’t be right?
My downfall seems imminent.

Dutch_guy votes for Wonderland not seeing the obvious. That makes him a threat to Wonderland as he might have come over some information. As Reenk Roink votes for me I pull out my alibi of being the terrorist with out actually naming the role as I am not totally sure that such a role not already exists in the game. I name Tiberius as the active mafia and B_Ray as Godfather.
This catches on and Cowhead418’s experience as a mafia is valuably making my case stronger.

EMFM is showing dangerously tendecies by being absolutely sure about me being guilty. He get’s a priority place on my list.
Then the silent whispers from the dead are weakening my case ... not appreciated at all. :no:

EMFM ends this round by reaffirming his role making my survival seem not possible.
Tiberius and B_Ray is both taken out of the game. Luckily they are both Masons and that makes the masons a no-threat to us for the remainder of the game. That made Reenk Roink the Thief/hobo as I first suspected. EMFM gets priority over RR in the next round.



Round 7

I start off by sending a pm to my remaining henchman urging him to participate:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

Wonderland… do you not visit this forum anymore?

I need you to participate one last time in the next round after we kill EMFM… If we are lucky and make the kill, that is if you are not robbed, we need to go after Dutch_guy. He is probably the only one we could frame. If that succeed we will win…
Be sure to stay alert and not post until we get one more to bandwagon Dutch_Guy.

Good Luck

---

My pm to Sasaki:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonslayer

Ah, I guess I am still on top of things.
I knew I was going to get lynched last round based on the things CR said. And when I came up as robbed as well I thought; GOD DAMN!!

Fortuna is smiling and I live yet another night.
Wonderland is probably going to be robbed this night, but we need the kill.

I think it is time we silence our paranoid cop.
Target: evil_maniac_from_mars killer: Wonderland
method:
Beaten to death by a Chinese kung fu master.

---

EMFM is killed and I am targeted again by the hobo, but this time I was asleep during the nigh… I thought: GOD DAMN, what is going on here?
My made up alibi would not work as I had originally planned it. I had to brush up on it a little adding the 50/50 chance of getting a kill. I refrained from voting as that would have made me the desperate mafia and played the all out of clues and resigned villager. I knew Dutch_Guy was in Europe most likely asleep so he would be the one the others would frame if I played my cards right. I confessed my role hoping that the others would do the same. Wonderland stayed wonderfully quiet during the whole ordeal.
I added the attempted kill on Cowhead418 to get him in a pinch. He of course took the bait as did Reenk Roink. My plan succeeded 100% when they both named Dutch_guy as Godfather. I added my vote making Wonderland’s not necessary.
I Pm’ed Sasaki with these final words: “It is done”.

Great read Sigurd.

I must have messed up with the Hobo descriptions. In each case the person was meant to have been detained at home the entire night, I guess I didn't make that clear. Also a few whispers from the dead I should have removed but didn't. Oh well, you won anyway.