My Lord Chancellor,
Edict 4.10,
For once...I'm speechless.
I strongly oppose 4.10
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My Lord Chancellor,
Edict 4.10,
For once...I'm speechless.
I strongly oppose 4.10
Chancellor Sigismund stands up with annoyance on his face.
O foolish Austrians! Would you have us play into our enemies' hands? Your passive edicts spell disaster, and I would fain that I was dead before the Reich witness such catastrophe. Do not think that Italy is not important. I would go as far to say that the cities of Milan, Venice, Genoa, Florence, Rome, and Bologna, are more important to the Reich that the whole of the riches of the Levant.
Sigismund resumes his seat.
Prinz Henry: The current list of proposed edicts and their first two seconders has been posted at the front of the Diet:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...92&postcount=1
I remind new Electors that only edicts with two seconders can be put to the vote and that you must explicitly state "I second motion 4.x" rather than just "I support motion 4.x". This also applies to Charter Ammendments - mine for dealing with inquisitors has attracted no seconders; this is a tribute to the piety of my Lords or perhaps their heat-resistance. More than two seconders are not required.
I second Edict 4.9.
Dear Chancellor Sigismund. I have already said that I appreciate the actions you have done so far. Still, I don't see why we should call for Edict 4.10 exactly. Maybe you could give us further elaborations on what your plans are to 'restore the situation' in Italy?
Surely the Milanese Duchies are already under our control. And you might also notice that most other Edicts deal with the situation in Italy just fine. I see no reason to give you free reign when it could lead to a situation that we may regret. I'd rather instruct you before-hand via Edicts. You seem to have something special in mind. Maybe you should just voice it here and then we may see whether it benefits the Reich as a whole or not.
I think my actions in Vienna have spoken clearly what I think of traitors and oath-breakers and I agree that the Venetians and Poles are nothing less. Still, we can restrain ourselves and strike at the right time, dealing our enemies even more damage. This headlong rush into excommunication will not serve us well in the long run. You say, it spells disaster however, maybe you could also elaborate about that before accusing the whole House of Austria.
I'm curious what you have to say on these matters, my dear Chancellor.
Chancellor der Stolze appears to be the only one among us with the strength and will to deal with the Papal puppets. I will never bow and grovel to Gregory! Some of you seem to be so deep in his pockets that I fear your souls may already be lost. I vigorously second Edict 4.10. The Chancellor was elected on an unopposed nomination, as no one else had the balls to do what must be done. It seems that once again he stands alone as the best of us.
I can not support the chansellor's edict 4.10 in its current form. I think a passive approach is exactly what we need for now. true, we will not simply follow the pope's commands blindly, but we also can not afford to be excommunicated. The consequences would be disastrous. I believe a better approach would be to see to our defenses and wait for these two countries to initiate attacks on us. With luck, this will result in their excommunication, which would give us free hands to wipe them out once and for all.
And in the worst case? Well, we'll have to fight a defensive battle, which means we'll have city walls and the advantage of superior positioning on our side. And afterwards we'll at least know exactly how far the pope's support of Venice and Milan goes.
On the other hand, a carte blanche to the Chancellor's warmongering could provoke not just the pope, but most of Europe into actively opposing us.
So I would like to propose a modified version of 4.10.
4.12: We will adopt a wait-and-see stance on the wars with Milan and Venice. We will let them strike the first blow before going on the offense. If they attack the Reich from this year onward, edict 4.10 shall apply.
Regardless of our disputes with the Pope, we are still a catholic country, and if nothing else, other European nations may take notice if the Pope permits further attacks by these two countries on us. France, England, Denmark and the other powerful nations of Europe will see a pope willfully permitting attacks on a catholic nation. That would be an eye-opener to even the blindest, most stubborn Pope-worshipper.
Also I have to inform you of a clerical error. My scribe seems to have got a few numbers mixed up. The intent of Edict 4.7 was to hire roughly 5 units of mercenaries. My scribe seems to have made the assumption that these units consist of a hundred men each and not 75. A more reasonable number would have been 300, or even 250 mercenaries. I apologize for the confusion this has caused. the scribe concerned has been duly punished.
However, I am not aware of the protocol in these matters. Can an edict, once proposed, be changed? As it stands now, I too will have to withdraw my support. Five hundred mercenaries would be a boon to our military, but also an unreasonably heavy cost.
In regards to the Charter Admmendment 4.1: Any inquisitor in Imperial lands should be hunted down by our men. When cornered with nowhere to run, they should be visited and discretely removed. it is seconded by myself for the good of the Reich
in addition i would like to propose Edict 4.13: The Reich must begin the recruitment of priests until the agent pool is maxed out. These priests may gain us holy favor via conversion and the trying of heretics. Even more importantly these priests provide a long term investment if we can get one of our Fathers elected to the College of Cardinals
5th Elector of Austria
As it is seen... the wars with Milan and Veince will surly end inn Excomunitation... there for i Support Edict 4.12
also as the recrutment and payment of priests can be better used to fund the support of new troops... i Strongly dissagree with Edict 4.13
I second Edicts 4.12,
I would like to discuss Edict 4.13, maxing out the pool of priests seems a bit far, although I do agree we need more, we also need to conserve florins for military needs. Although your on to something, if we hire more priests, and build chapels and or abbeys in some settlements, I think the pope would favour us a lot more, this is a better route then flat out paying the pope.
5th Elector of Austria
ah... excuse me honorable memebers... i mere usage of the wrong vocabulary is at fault here... i do support Edict 4.12... so much so as to second Edict 4.12... thank you
New 5th elector of Bavaria
On the subject of Edict 4:12, I support the terms of peace.
The second Elector of Swabia stands up, lookign angry
On edict 1.12 , I say it is completley useless, why you ask? Because Milan and Venice shall never keep to peace, and if we do not attack, then they will siege our cities! They shall never keep to themselevs, and most of you know that the pope will always go afte rus, why? because he hates the Holy Roman Empire! Thats why! He can't keep prmomises! He is as corrupt as a rotten apple! They will burn,pillage and plunder when we let pur guard down, so I say we shoot full steam ahead with a attack on Sardina or Corisca, Peace is not even in the dictionary!!! THE POPE IS CORRUPT!
the Elector is forced down by his fellow Swabian electors, his face red and spit over him, and mutters furiously to his fellow electors before being quiet
Duke Leopold stands up again a grave expression on his face:
I have to speak in front of this Assembly once again to vent my anger over the most recent decisions of our beloved Emperor Heinreich. Weren't you the one that had offered an oath before this Diet that you would allocate settlements equally among all your servants? Yet you defy your own words once again by your unjust actions! How many fiefs does the esteemend House of Bavaria control now? Five, if I'm correct, with Bologna and Milan including some of our most prosperous and populated towns. The House of Franconia owns three fiefs and the House of Swabia four! Why does this give me the distinct impression that Emperor Heinrich shuns the House of Austria by denying them new lands. Have we not given our share of money to grease the machines of war responsible for winning the recent victories? We have even shed our own blood in recent battles!
I don't envy the other Houses their possesions, but I wonder why the Emperor sees it fit to hog on two valuable Italian provinces of which at least one could be given to our care. We, as the House of Austria have demanded this since the very first Diet, yet you keep on denying us our rights!
I know that in the recent Diet my Charter Amendment has not been seconded by the other Houses. But if this goes on I will push for a change of our Charter again. I want the Dukes of the other Houses to consider that things might not always go their way and they may end up being on the loosing side of the current bargain.
I will not tolerate this disrespect shown by the Emperor to the House of Austria. If this situation is not redeemed you might find our support for Imperial matters somewhat lacking in the future!
Indignantly Duke Leopold takes his seat again, shooting angry glances at the assembled nobles.
Chancellor Sigismund rises to his feet.
You remind me of someone, Duke Leopold. I remember now, his name was Dietrich. Ah, Dietrich was not happy with the Kasier, and we all know what happened to him.
May I remind you that you have not done anything to warrant a futher settlement. You require an exhorbatent ammount of militia in order to defend Vienna against paltry Venetians.
Chancellor Sigismund resumes his seat.
"Mein Kaiser, fellow Electors. I support our Prinz Henrys idea to move himself in to the Italian theatre. Also i think we should avoid excommunication for now,since it could be our end. What this discussion is lacking is aiming our thoughts on the front we can do something. Poland needs to be defeated and i would specially like to hear suggestions from House of Franconia how to do that,since it seems that my Edict 4.6 "Reich sieges Magdeburg immediately,but do not assault the castle. Again,lets decide where to fight and not give the decision to Polish. isnt garnering much of support.I would like ask that someone starts then making better suggestions.
Third Swabian lector sits down looking mildly irritated.
Prinz Henry: Electors, a reminder that there is now less than 24 hours before voting begins (11am Sunday, UK time). Please make sure all edicts or charter ammendments that you support have two seconders or they will not be put to the vote. The list of edicts and their seconders is here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...92&postcount=1
Please explicitly say "I second Edict 4.x" if that's what you are doing.
Third Elector of Swabia asks again permission to speak.
"My apologies.I forgot to say something.I support Charter Ammendment 4.1.Thank you."
Duke Leopold stands again and faces Sigismund der Stoltze.
I don't remember asking for your oppinion on this matter, mein Kanzler, my concerns were rather addressed at Emperor Heinreich. Since you have taken the time to answer me, I will take the time to addres your concerns.
First I want to remind you that I only follow the orders given to me and that in fact you and your predecessor are solely responsible that my part in the recent conquests has been smaller than that of other generals. I have proven in recent battles that I am well capable of defeating my foes.
Your pun regarding the Militia under my control is once again your responsibilty, because as Chancellor it is solely your responsibilty which troops and how much you assign me for the defense of my city.
Secondly you ask what part the House of Austria has taken in the recent conquests and is it not fact that with approximately 2000 florins per city generated within my realm this is the highest average any House can show. Money is indeed necessary to wage war and we contribue not too little of it to the Imperial treasury.
While you mention Dietrich von Saxony. His recent absence is truly unfortunate. If the Reich casts into exile all of his Dukes that don't agree with the current agenda, I fear for the future of our Reich!
Leopold sits again, casting a glance to Emperor Heinrich, awaiting his response on the matter.
5th Elector of Austria
Honorable Members... I beg listen up... I belive i see a solution out of this... if we follow edict 4.6 as it is... we can gather up a castle in the Empire... this castle can therefore be alloctated imediatly to House Austria... bringing it up to force with the other houses... i therefore second edict 4.6 and wish to propose an edict unto itself
I propose that Edict 4.14 be made and it states as such... Pending the passege of Edict 4.6 and/or succesful capture of Castle Magdeburg it shall pass into possession of House Austria... by-passing the waiting time of the distribution of lands.
I pray that House Austria can gain the support needed here by the benevolant counsil memebers to pass this Edict 4.14 into law and keep the Empire from colapsing with Austrian Support
Sits in hope that he will not be seen as a radical nationalist
Kaiser Heinrich:
Duke Leopold, I suggest that you are being the rather selfish one in this matter. I have no agenda against Austria, as I belong to no house. It is simply the way the dice has been rolled.
I recall that there were mumblings when, in the midterm of my reign as Chancellor, I had not allocated anything to Austria. I had full intentions to give Prague to your noble house, except for the fact that you had chosen to wait to make your assault. I cannot give that which is not mine.
And now, you dare to suggest that I have been engineering the lands we take solely because I have some mysterious grudge or agenda against Austria. This is preposterous. Our recent efforts against Milan and Venice have been our main thrusts because they threaten the Reich. Tell me, would you have our Italian territories snatched from our grasp just so that Mighty Austria could finally get some glory?
Right now we are being pushed to the limit in lands that does not concern your house. There is nothing that any of us can do about it, so I suggest that you pipe down and hope for a speedy resolution of these hostilities for the good of the entire Reich. In the meantime, I expect you to be busy in the near future by having a hand in the conquest of some Polish territories.
Good day everyone, I shall respond to the so far proposed motions later.
The 2nd Elector of Austria rises slowly
Kaiser Heinrich, My Prinz,
I appeal to both of you as gentlemen and scholars...House Austria must start to believe something is amiss if we do not receive our fair allotment of Provinces.
I appeal to you both, grant Austria fair allocation of settlements at the earliest convenience. I would never think this would need to be drafted into an edict...but if it must I will begin a private lobby campaign in earnest.
Are we being punished for some issue that has not been discussed?
Glancing at Duke Leopold, the 2nd Elector raises and eyebrow in concern.
Duke Leopold rises again.
I don't see anywhere in our charter where it suggests that land should only be given to the House that was most active in its conquest. And although the charter states that the general directions of expansions of our Houses are East, West, North and South, we had a discussion in our very first Diet session that this should not be followed blindly. Right now we have the exact situation described in the first discussions, where we're only expanding in one direction, that being south. I don't see why Austria should not get its share of the conquests made by the Reich, just because our recent conquests don't lie in the East. If you have to stick to your geographical preferance you could for example have gifted Bologna, the eastermost city on the Italian peninsula to my House, yet for reasons that elude me you have not done so.
I also see no reason why any settlement given to my control should be lost. Have I not shown recently that I'm capable of defending my possessions?
Once again you bring up Polish lands, while I have shown no desire for them in the past and will not show in the future. They are deserted lands, cut off from any trade. Why don't you set up your lands in their chilly castles instead of reaping the riches of some of the most prosperous and populated cities under our control. I only demand that Austria receive a fair share of those possesions.
Long have I endured the neglect we have received from you, mein Kaiser, but I will not tolerate it any longer. I see my fair complaints fall on deaf ears within this Assembly. I see no reason to attend any longer!
Leopold casts a last furious glance towards the Kaiser and the Chancellor, before leaving the Diet chambers accompanied by a fair share of the followers of the House of Austria.
Kaiser Heinrich:
You want fair allocation of settlements? First of all, the settlements that were captured this term have nothing to do with Austria. Since when are you concerned with Dijon and Western Italy?
I will not drop everything and abandon our campaign in Italy just to satisfy one house that cares only about its own advancement and not the good of the entire Reich in general.
Duke Leopold turns around after the swift response of the Kaiser for a last rebuttal:
Where do you take the notion that giving Austria its share of the Italian riches would spell disaster for our Italain camapaign, where!?
And the personal concern of Austria as always been everywhere the Reich stretches, be it East, North, South or West!
Enraged he finally storms off.
5th Elector of Austria
hasnt left with the Duke
Mein Kaiser... Respectfully If this Empire is drawn to its fullist extent as you say... then why have we continued to win battles in Italy?... i have to say that though my fellow Austrians will not go so far as to support my Edict to expand House Austria Further north... It is only so fair to be alocated SOME lands... we have... generaly... the richest town in Germany... but if that is eclipsed by Italian possesions... then what power does House Austria posses to Help the continuing of the Reich?... to allow all houses to contiune to support ANY wars then House Austria MUST be given more lands... where-ever they be taken north south east or west...
also it is fair to notice that the wars thus entered can only conquer terriotrys not given to House Austria... if these wars thus entered unbalance the Empire... then are they truly the best wars to be under-taken?
3rd Elector of Austria stands
I will not be foolish like my fellow Austrian Duke Leopold, storming off in a fit of rage when things need to be resovled in the diet.
On a second notion, I think at the moment, Austria's land grab is less important to me then protecting the good of the Riech, and getting peace and or destroying out enemies to make a richer profit and a bigger kingdom.
When the time comes Kaiser Henrich will give us our dues, it is only fair, and if he then holds them from us, there shall be movement.
Third Swabian elector takes the stand witha scroll on his hand:
"Gott in Himmel!!
What is this that i see here in Imperial Diet? Noble Lords arguing about land when the Reich is at war!"
Swabian Elector throws the scroll on the ground before the Diet.
"We are at war with Poland and this Diet doesnt seem to be concerned about that at all! We have plenty of time to fight about who gets and what, but you cant eat a wildboar before its speared.Now Electors of the Reich,start suggesting plans about the Polish campaigns or start seconding my plan. What kind of council are we if we dont give any orders to Imperial forces when we are at war?!"
Swabian elector takes his place and leaves the opened scroll on the ground.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...92&postcount=1
5th Elector of Bavaria Rises Slowly
Mein Kiser and humble nobles of the Reich. This internal struggle for more lands should be stopped immediatly. We are fighting amongst our selves when we should be concentrating on our bordering factions. Looks at 5th elector of Austria
So I say this to Austria patience is a virtue. You will have lands in due time but you must remember that the Reich cannot afford to stretch itself too thin and cause our borders to be less defended. Thus arguing such points with his majesty will not help your situtation but surely drive thee into misfortune. Your time will come, Austria, when you have earned your great victory and all of the Reich will praise the glory that Austria has brough upon our great faction. Not only our faction but all of christdom will be awed and amazed at such a victory. For this you will receive your lands. With this said I must humbly ask you to be more patient in this matter and desist from presistent bickering.
Turns and Looks at Kizer Heinrich
I shall turn to my page and declare that 5th Elector of Bavaria will second Edict 4:13. The basis for my decision is the worry of our low standing with his Holiness the pope. The more preists we create the better our chances that one of ours becomes elected which will give us a better advantage over the rest of the other factions.
5th elector sits, parched
5th Elector of Austria
I do not see as to why you are blaming... or even inciting that what i say is only said by me. Just today my most estemmed Duke has left this Diet in a fit of rage...
Also I have offerd a solution to this problem... and to a problem where Austria has more chances of helping... Poland... I have A. supported an edict agianst Poland and B. proposed an Edict to allocate the Castle Magdeburg to House Austria once taken... though you over look this I see...
and my patience is not the only one being tried... through differant means nearly all the Electors of Austria have been "tried" in their patience...Quote:
I propose that Edict 4.14 be made and it states as such... Pending the passege of Edict 4.6 and/or succesful capture of Castle Magdeburg it shall pass into possession of House Austria... by-passing the waiting time of the distribution of lands.
Also it does seem that this war in Italy has been pressed single handedly by Bavarian and Swabian Electors for the gain of their respected countrys... I have no problem with the gain of one nations... so long as one is not left behind in the act...
I would like to remind the Diet that Edicts giving possession of provinces to specific houses are in violation of the Imperial Charter. In order for these Edicts to be valid, a Charter Amendment must first pass by a 2/3 majority. Surely you all remember that just such a Charter Amendment was proposed during the last Diet session and it failed to even receive two seconds.
5th Elector of Austria
I will admit that even I... new to the Diet... Knew this before i proposed this Edict... but I proposed it in effect... to end any more piontless debate on the issue of Land... if it is unwilling to be supported... i will withdrawl my statment of Edict 4.14... and offer my apologies to the Diet...
It seemed that it is a usable option to follow and end two problems with one stone persay... and with it i ment not to violate the Charter... but to end a disagreement which has torn this Diet apart...
Excuse me honorable members for knowingly violating this Charter...
Bows
Seemingly irritated third Swabian Elector stands up and speaks:
"Since my fellow Electors seem to be completely un intrested about the war with Poland,God knows why! I propose Edict 4.15 "The Reich sieges Breslau as soon as possible"
On more personal note.I think we should take it and give it to Austrians so they would shut up. Maybe some Austrian captain could take the city,since the garrison of the Praha should be more then enough powerfull to defeat the garrioson of Breslau.Also turning Breslau into a castle would end the Austrian recruiting problems.
The Swabian Elector sits back on his place.
Fredericus von Hamburg, having until now been observing the deliberations quietly, finally stands.
Oh, how I wish we could have just one Diet session where the Austrians didn't spend the entire time complaining about something.
Unlike these Austrians, I recognize that Franconia has little claim to lands in Italy. Our soldiers have in recent years primarily had the task of protecting the north, including the capital where this Diet meets, while the majority of the Reich's armies were engaged in the south. It is not a glorious task, but it is necessary. I only wish some of the other houses *looks at largely empty Austrian section* had more of a sense of duty to the Reich, and put a little less effort in their own self-interest.
But that is enough of that. I have been following the deliberations about Italy very closely, and I am glad that it appears that we will make an effort to avoid excommunication. In the north, we have few troops tasked with defending large areas against many potential enemies. It is best to keep those enemies just that, potential. Still, Poland has made a mistake. It would seem that their frontier is defended very poorly. They certainly have large armies, but they're probably in the east, and there would be a delay until they're recalled.
I am not going to burden the Chancellor with further edicts, I trust he will act logically. To do so would be to strike Poland immediately while they are unprepared, and reinforce for the eventual Polish response.
Poland does need to be taught a lesson, valient sir. I agree we should show the empire's might and take Breslau but do we have the capabilities to defend our other places as well. I think we should stabalize our lands and build a strong defensive position against Milan and Venice. Once this is put forth I will support your edict.
5th Elector of Austria
though now at some-what of a dissadvantge... i will say that Poland is the place for new and further expansion... and therefore i support Edict 4.15
i would also like to state that we of House Austria always have the Good of the Riech in mind... but also the good of our House in mind to
The fifth Elector of Franconia stands and faces Fredericus
While I agree with you that we have little claim to Italy, and should consider duty above matters of personal gain and honor, I suspect perhaps you are targeting the wrong audience.
I find it deeply troubling that the Kaiser is still unable to admit what grave mistakes he has made.
It is bad enough that he has sent our Duke, a skilled warrior, and according to the Kaiser himself, "the only general who knows how to use cavalry in a siege", into an exile, self-imposed or not.
But even worse than that, by disregarding his advice and warnings, he is directly at fault for the war with Poland. Had he not ordered an army through Polish territory, we might still be allies.
Perhaps now would be a good time to make amends. Perhaps the Kaiser could win back the trust of Duke Dietrich, and put this skilled general to work ending the war he tried to avoid in the first place.
Compared to the Kaiser's disregard for his duty to the Reich, all Austria is guilty of is a moderate amount of greed. Trifles, by comparison.
As for the Second Elector of Swabia, I suggest he take another look at edict 4.12. It is far from a peace treaty, as you seem to believe. I had hoped the nobles of the land were better educated, but perhaps Swabia has practicing too much with the sword, and too little with a pen lately.
We are not attempting a peace, we are making our enemies look bad! If this edict is followed, we will achieve one or more of the following:
- A carte blanche from the Pope to attack Venice
- A carte blanche from the Pope to attack Milan
- Support from the rest of Europe against the Pope.
We are forcing the Pope into a battle he can not win. Either he will be forced to give us his blessing in eradicating two of his puppet states, or he will be exposed as the corrupt charlatan he is, for all of Europe to see!
How is this not in our interests? How could we possibly not gain from this?
Of course, neither Milan nor Venice will accept our "ceasefire". They will see our passivity as a weakness, and attack. And then, my lord, we will be in an excellent position to not just strike back, but eradicate them completely, and do so without fear of excommunication!
5th elector of Bavaria with fist in the air
Here! Here! I believe the 5th elector of Franconia is correct. Let us provoke an attack and put the pope in a position to excuminicate the dogs for their heretical war against us. This will sureley raise our standing with the pope when we destroy them. This will also allow us to create a strong defensive position and concentrate on Poland.
Sits, nodding in approval at the 5th elector of Franconia
bewarned my fellows... this may back-fire... as i understand the Reichs favor with the pope is low... so if they attack us... we may not take a blow to our favor... but mayn't they just recive the pope's approval?...
if he (pope) takes a stand agianst us... as he has before... this may backfire and be very costly... if not... it may be the most succesfull campiagn yet planned
I do not wish to be seen as a person agianst wars... i support them fully... and anyway to gain lands for the Reich is better than a loss... and if it was an Edict... i would support it... but in the past the pope has not favored our actions... so be careful in impliminting this plan...
O, Fith Elector of Franconia, I was talking of the fifth Bavarian Elector, who supported terms of peace, not of the orginal peace. but I say this again- No country will keep to a reaty or Cease Fire, there all hungry dogs!
Milan and Venice ae simple Pets of the Pope.
The pope hates us.
France and England ignore us, and would attack if they got chance
And the rest just want some of our empire!
I say we burn,pillage and plunder at least one nation to teach everyone a lesson! As my fellow Swabian Elector has pointed out countless times, if we attack Poland and destroy them, then i am certian that the rest shall back off!
SO i propose-
Edict 1.16- We atack and destroy at least one European nation in the next 10 years
This shall be a package of fear to our enemies, detroying one nation shall give us more land,food and people, and lead us down our road to a higher victory!
5th Elector of Bavaria
I would second edict 1:16 provided that it does not lead to excommunication and that we attack the faction with the least amount of land. We cannot afford to be excommunicated by his holiness as it will cause great unrest among our lands. So i am suggesting we fortify our defensive postion in northern italy. Target Braslau in the interm and also try to provoke milan or venice into being excommunicated. This i believe will be the best course of action.
What European nation do you suggest? Edict 1:16 is too broad. We would need to concerntrate the majority of our already depleted forces for such an offensive leaving a large part of the Empire vulnerable to other enemies.
The second elector of Swabia stands up, pointing at the 4th Elector of Bavaria
I did not suggest a certian nation has there is many diffrent nations with weaknesses we can attack, I suggest we attack eiter a rich nation or a nation with heaps of land, Poland for example. I did not suggest a single nation as I would first like to hear the opinions of veryone else, it is not too broad of a subject, if I said Attack the pope in 10 years, amy=ny people would complain, and also compliment, if I said attack poland, many would complain, many would compliment, so the way I ahve suggested now is the best as, everyone can put forward a good suitable target, and it is a good time limit!
The Second Elector of Swabia sits down
Prinz Henry: I have seconded the edict that we approach Milan to make peace. Now that she no longer has any settlements on the mainland, there is little cause for war and the Pope's injunction means that prosecuting the war will be at considerable cost.
This session of the Diet is now closed for the proposing and seconding of edicts. Electors may cast their votes at the following location:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=80126
Discussion may freely continue here as usual.
A messenger arrives from Otto von Kassel, he unfurls a letter and begins to read:
My lords, I wished to attend the Diet in person but unfortunately the situation in Milan has grown worse. I could easily sneak past this farce of a siege that Venice has cobbled together against us, but the city itself is close to rioting and with the threat of a Milanese attack on the horizon I must stay here.
To be blunt, the current situation in northern Italy is a mess. We have no army capable of offensive action, there are two Milanese armies threatening our new and old possessions, the Pope's army has cut off easy transit between Genoa and Florence and the Venetians seem to be marching on Innsbruck. We have forces scattered around Genoa trying to march past the Papal army and which could be destroyed piecemeal by the Milanese. Innsbruck has a sizeable force that could reinforce Milan or other places in Italy, but it is leaderless and has Venetian forces marching on it from the south and east. It is chaos. It is a disaster waiting to happen.
I will defend Milan to the last man, but with only my retainers and a unit of peasant archers I'm not sure if I can even hold the city from its own residents much less the Venetians or Milanese. I request that I be ordered to run off these Venetians so I can reinforce the city with mercenaries and newly raised levies. I do not ask this lightly, but with disorder around Genoa, the moves toward Innsbruck, and the distance from here to Dijon, I am not optimistic that outside reinforcement will reach me in time. We must remember that Milan and Venice are allies and can cooperate in combat.
I have sent my messenger with my votes. I have voted for edicts that will, I hope, allow us to reorganize and reinforce while avoiding excommunication. We must bring our lands in Italy under our full control, by eliminating the Milanese field armies, lifting the siege on Milan, and destroying the large brigand presence in the area, before taking further offensive action.
As for the Poles, I would hope we can lift the siege of Stettin and take a few territories before we hear from the Pope, but then we must hold. The only Catholic faction that has a worst standing with the Papacy than us is Sicily, and they are excommunicated. We have achieved much, but if we continue on our present course, we will lose it all and more.
The messenger rolls up the letter and leaves the Diet.
Then surely you don't second Edict 1.16Quote:
Originally Posted by nazgul3
Please understand what the Edict says, his Edict purposes that a nation be destroyed in the next 10 years.
1. This is immpossible with our current infastructure
2. Will put the good of the Kingdom at risk of Enemys.
3. Will get us excommunicated.
how can you second an edicts, then give your reasons? Make sure you know what your seconding, if you only partially support it state the changes you would like to see in it, but surely you wouldn't second it!
*Face turns red with anger at the pure ignorance in the diet*
Edicts everywhere! Why do we not worry on what we have, instead of worrying about enemys and allies etc. Lets get the Riech under control before we control anything else!
Pray tell fair country man how we can get the Reich under contral without dealing with other nations?... are they not one and the same?... If you can make a proposal to gather this nation together without dealing with outside threats then by all means say so... elsewise it seems to make sence to deal with the threat that has armys and is bent on the Reich's destruction in the mean time
We must atleast try to make peace, then worry about upgrading military and trade infastructure.
Then please the pope, I do hate saying this, but he has the power to excommunicate us, the last thing the Riech needs is to have 12 Nations at war with them.
Atleast try to make peace, if not we will deal with them. But we must try to avoid self destruction, and brain storm some good ideas instead of putting forward stupid edicts that theres no reason behind. :canada:
Edicts are ideas! We brainstorm the edicts! We are thinking about alliances and wars and stufff, thats the whole reason of edicts! Because if we went around saying lets make an alliance with this person, this person and this person, then whos is going to carry those orders out!? There not official, where if you have a good idea, then you put it in a edict and people will actually consider it!
Dear Elector of Austria... pray if you have a way to make ideas known... and turn them into orders without Edicts... then by all means try that way... but short of pulling out a sword and using threats there is no way for that to be done... Edicts are the ideas that are turned into orders... without them this Diet would be piontless!
[Through a sarcastic smile]
Maybe the 3rd Elector of Austria should show us how imprudence will get the job done at of his own exstensive exerpience. Since you are so eager maybe you should join the conquest in Italy first hand and get your hands stained with blood. Better yet why don't you join the front lines of the army and lead by example. I am sure there is a nice italian archer wanting to make your acquaintance.
[Sits with laughter]
"My dear 5th Elector of Austria and 5th Elector of Bavaria.To whom Austrian Elector are you talking to? As far as i know it was the 2nd Elector of Swabia who talked before you two? Maybe you should take it easy with the beer here in Imperial diet,so you would regognice who is who?"
Third Swabian Elector sits down laughing and takes a sip of beer.
3rd Swabian elector... if you paid attention to the presvious conversation you would relize that we are talking to the 3rd Elector of Austria and not to any Elector of Swabia untill just now... maybe YOU should put down the Beer and listen to the conversation...
Sits with a smirk and a slight laugh
*stands up, ready to fight back*
By all means! Edicts are great, but why so many? Why can we not state and idea, and sculpt it into such a fine edict the purpose it? Instead of one Elector blurting out his idea and making it a FINE PRINT edict, why not just state your idea, then we can all purpose changes and opinions, then when we feel fit purpose the edict.
My dear 5th Elector of Bavaria, I have no problem fighting, I did not say anything to insult how our men fight for the Riech, I will fight if needed, and if it is warranted.
I do not see the point of carrying on wars we cannot properly fund, and be excomunnicated and have the rest of Europe cast an iron curtain on us, we shall not be shunned, does this make any sence to you!
*sits down, not bothering with his beer, disgusted at the slobs in the diet and the unprofesionalism of some of the Electors edicts that are childish and show slelf pity.* :smash:
Kaiser Heinrich:
I see no harm in proposing a number of edicts. The problem, however, is sorting out the good ones from the bad ones and I trust this esteemed body to have the brainpower to do that.
Very right Kaiser!
This diet is here for suggesting the ideas, putting it into edicts, if you do not like the edict, then do not vote for it!! I am also greatly suprised to see this place turn into a small Mead Hall, mead is good, but it may affect peoples decisions!
ANd if the edict is useless, people will not second it, they will leave it, and thus the edict is gone, I see no reason why you Third Elector of Austria has to worry over such things, and I do not blurt things
Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze rises once again and discreetly clears his throat before speaking.
Mein electors, you have asked for what I would do to address our current situation in Italy. Depending on what edicts are passed and what are not, I will attempt to engage Count Manno Galli, whether as the agressor or defender that is not important. I am sure that as I had no difficulty in defeating the Milanese, that there should be no problem for the Kaise, our ablest general and rightly so, to better them.
Sigismund calls the Bavarian messenger over to him.
You may tell your lord, Count Otto, that I shall move everything to relieve him of the unfortunate predicament that he is in. I hope to have punished the Venetians for mocking the valour of one of our most capable generals.
And finally, noble electors, I will preserve our frontiers agains the Poles. However, I cannot be sure of the loyalty of one or two generals in our midst, so that does not assist me in my endeavours.
Chancellor Sigismund politely resumes his seat.
And those two General's would be whom Chancellor?
5th Bavarian Elector stands in confidence
Mein chancellor if it would please you, allow me to take the message to mein noble count for this is much too important of a mission to allow for some messenger boy. Enstrust in me, noble sire, and i assure the count will receive this letter with great speed and vigilance.
5th Bav elec..sits happily
Jonas von Mahren stands, looking mildly amused
First, thank you for inviting me to this Diet session, my lords.
It seems our noble chansellor finds it hard to trust those who disagree with him.
looks briefly across the Austrian and Franconian seats, at the empty seat of the duke, and at a few outspoken electors
Well, let us just hope our Chancellor's own judgment will be sufficient to lead us through the current wars then.
Nevertheless, I am at the Reich's service and eagerly awaiting an assignment. I expect a few generals will be needed at the Polish border.
sits down again
A minor Bavarian official stands up in the back of the room.
My Lords, Steward Mandorf apologies for his absense from the proceedings as of late. He has been in seclusion in Nuremburg due to private matters. He expects to return to the Diet soon.
well... i am sorry to say... but I must attend to personal matters at my lands in the South of Austria... i will send messangers if i need to say anything to the Diet...
In an aside to the remaining Austrian Electors
I am sorry my fellow Electors... but I must leave for the week... an inoportune time I know...
Back to the Diet
Excuse me... I must hurry...
Leaves Diet in a flustered rush
*the elector stands slowly and speaks in a matter of face voice*
My fellow electors while in the Diet we have resolved that we need peace on our southern front do we have a plan of battle for defense or attack on Poland much less other areas threatened? I believe we need a united strategy rather than single commanders forging there way slowly.
A knight in full armor,covered on blood and mud enters the Diet.
" I bear an message from The Duke of Franconia. A terrible battle between My master Dietrich Von Saxony and army of Polish Nobles have been fought near stettin.223 Polish Noble men will never breath the same air as we and 45 of the best Knights of the Reich lay dead on the field and over hundred Spearmen and Peasants lay there too with their masters. But nonetheless My Master Dietrich and Jonas Von Mahren are both alive and Victorious!"
The Knight wabbles away from the Diet door and an loud grumbling noise can be heard as the exhausted messenger grunbles outside on the floor.
A messenger arrives from Milan:
My lords, Otto von Kassel has repulsed a small Venetian attack on Milan, but the city is again besieged by a much larger Venetian force. I pray the Prinz reaches Milan with reinforcements in time!
The messenger sits, exhausted form his journey.
(A spokesman for Prinz Henry): The Prinz congratulates the Duke of Franconia on a timely return to public life! The Duke's victory over the Poles was hard fought and by the narrowest of margins, but that narrow margin is the difference between triumph and despair.
The Prinz wishes to inquire of the Duke about Jonas Ehren's performance in the battle. Has the young man won his spurs and been knighted on the field? From the heavy losses endured by his escort, one would assume he performed his duty with valour.
Count Otto can be assured that the Prinz is within reach of Milan and should be able to support the Count in the event of assault. However, the Prinz's army is considerably smaller than might have been expected from Edict 4.8. That called for a "large army". The Prinz's current force numbers a mere 500 men, while another 1100 still stand idle and leaderless in Innsbruck. It is unclear how this force can be expected to stand against the Venetian host, let alone reinforce our Italian possessions and hunt down marauding rebels.
Electors, this is a letter that the Prinz has drafted to the Chancellor (OOC: Ignoramus, your PM box is full again!):
Quote:
Chancellor,
I am grateful to be approaching Milan, but I hope my current command is only an advance guard. Edict 4.8 called for a large army but my command numbers a mere 500 souls and cannot be expected to resist the large Venetian forces in Lombardy. We have 1100 men idle and leaderless in Innsbruck. I need most of these men with me, urgently, or I fear I will soon lie dead on the field.
To make my intention clear - Edict 4.8 called for my command to reinforce Milan and all our other Italian settlements so that they can resist assault by the Lombard league. It is also to be large enough to defend in the field. I cannot see how these tasks can be accomplished with my present force. Already the modest Venetian force approaching Milan appears to outmatch mine and I have not yet detached any men to garrison our settlements.
I would also request that you gather together the forces surrounding the Pope and unite them under my father's command in Genoa. I anticipate my command and that of my father uniting to form a single field army - I would be happy to serve under my father's leadership. Our current blockade of the Papal army serves no function but merely leaves Genoa defenceless.
Yours
Henry
A rugged figure enters the Diet and sits on the place of the Duke of Franconia. Dietrich Von Saxony is in no better shape then the messenger he dispatched before him.
"Mein Kaiser,Mein Prinz,fellow Dukes and Electors. I have returned after long absence from the matters of the Reich. I have just fought with the Polish near Stettin and im bit tired."
One of Dietrichs clerk´s says something to his ear and he continues:
"Mein Prinz.About Jonas Von Mahren.He is a knight if anyone should be. At the end of battle of Kamienski,he had only 2 of his retainers still able to ride and Young Mahren chased the Polish still like the Angel of Death. Johan Von Mahren is a Knight."
Dietrich sits back on his place and drinks heavily of his wine glass.He is absolutely exhausted.
Kaiser Heinrich:
I congratulate Count Otto on his well-deserved victory against the Venetians, and wish him luck against the incoming assault. I also remind Chancellor Sigismund that I and my men are available and are not that far away, in Genoa.
*The Kaiser catches a glimpse of Dietrich von Saxony's seat, filled for the first time in years. He says nothing as he exits.*
Duke of Franconia watches Kaiser leave the Diet with expression that he is not particularly amazed of the Old Kaisers reaction towards him and continues sipping his wine,while talking with the Franconian Electors with small enough voice that the other houses cant hear what they are talking about.
Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze listens to a messenger that has just rushed through the Diet. His face looks grim as he rises.
"Mein electors, I have just received word that the Venetians are assaulting Bolonga. This is grim news indeed. The odds against the Reich are four to twenty-five, but I am sure that our men will fight to the last.
Gott save the Reich!"
Sigismund slumps to his seat.
Jobst von Salva walks in, a look of amzement on his face
Recently I fought the veneatians in north italy, we were victorious! Our host of men easily overran the Veneatian traitors!
But to other news- When i was travelling to the battle site (Near City of Milan) I saw firsthand some sites, and heard.
One is this, I saw the Papal Army camped right next to Genoa, if this has been talked of I aplogise for not listening, but it was horrible! They are allowed to camp right next to our cities? Right near our men? people?
Bah!
And the Turkish! I heard from one soldier they currently reside (siegeing) the cities in Sardina and Corisca!
Bah!
Jobst von Salva sits down, still pleased at his victory.
Kaiser Heinrich:
To arms, good Electors! Venice has finally been excommunicated, which nulls Edict 4.2. We must immediately take this turn of good fortune and strike at the Venetians with a fury! Why am I still not engaged?
Duke of Franconia,enters the Diet and takes the stand after Kaiser Heinrich.
"I just wanted to say that i wish good luck to my father in law Kaiser,Prinz Henry and Jobst von Salva in defeating the Italians. I will pray that no harm will happen to you and wish Godspeed for you and your weapons."
Dietrich steps down and takes his seat.
The newly knighted Jonas von Mahren stands up, still bruised and bandaged
I apologize for not presenting myself earlier. After the recent battle, the camp chirurgeon was very insistent about treating a few wounds.
I am flattered by my Duke's account of the battle. It is true I fought to the best of my ability, but without our Duke's leadership, I doubt many of us would have survived.
Nevertheless, there are more important matters to discuss.
Kaiser, I see your point, but with whose army do you propose to attack? The one that has been ordered to clear out rebels and other incursions into our southern lands? The few hundred men stationed in the Northern provinces?
I agree, their excommunication presents an opportunity we cannot afford to ignore, but do we have enough soldiers to actually take advantage of the situation? We can hardly afford to lower our guard against our other enemies.
There is also the question of Poland, who must never be underestimated. Their people fight like demons, I can tell you.
von Mahren sits down again to continue the muted discussion with the rest of the Franconian delegation
5th Elector of Bavaria with his glass of wine
First I would like to make a tost to my brothers in arms who have come back from the terrible battles in Italy, those who are still there fighting, and those who now rest with our Lord above...God be with you all!
Takes a sip wishing he was fighting with his duke
Now is the time to strike venice at its heart. We have the capabilites to stand up to Milan. However we should start training soldiers at Innsbruk and Hamburg. To prepare to invade venice and defend against poland. This attack on venice will prove our loyalty to the pope and raise our standing. I believe we have sufficient amount of troops to attack venice and put a dent in their economy. We still have Sigismund in the West with many troops and Jobst Van Salza who is just ran into a small army in the Venetian mountains who he will crush. I believe we have the capabilities to strike and strike hard and bring end to the those heathens. God wills it!!!
5th Elector of Bavaria sits excited
i must insist that if at any point a crusade is called upon the vienetians we must take up the cross no matter what to improve papal standing by slaying some of those oafs
Messanger from Southern Austria arives... opens a sealed letter and reads...
Dear Assembled Members
I hear that our most distrustful foe... Venice... has finaly and mot deservingly been excomunicated!! I trust that the celibrations went as well there as they did here... and that the troops may now carry our most lawful war to the end of the Venician Empire... I belive that now would be the time to attack at either Zagreb... or the Capital itself... Both will be tough fights... and I hope and pray that I will be back in time to partake in the disscusions...
Signed
5th Elector of Austria
The messanger bows and backs out off the room...
[Prinz Henri]: The loss of Bologna, formerly the seat of my father's estate, is a national humiliation. I trust the Chancellor will erase this stain on our record before leaving office. Fortunately, we now have sufficient forces in North Italy to go onto the offensive. But Bologna has taught us the danger of complacency. Venice rivals us in military might, while the Poles have shown they should not be under-estimated. These are dark days, but far worse is to come if we are not careful. France grows restless along our western border while Hungary has formiddable armies immediately to our east. We have been taking too many risks and became over-stretched. A more orderly re-imposition of Imperial rule over outlying areas is required.
I propose that consideration be given to allowing Houses some formal say in the defence of their borders. At each Diet, Dukes and Stewards should be formally consulted about garrison requirements, allocation of key personnel (generals) and deployment of any field armies within their provinces. The Chancellor would then be free to focus on where he wishes to lead a main Imperial offensive, while having four pairs of eyes to watch his back.
I agree with my Prinz.
As the Empire is expanding too rapidly we are unable to defend our own borders. Decentralising the armed forces into the regional houses would ensure local defenses remain solid, while the Chancellor can request "Imperial Troops" from each house for his own use and strategies which we can agree on in the Diet sessions.
Duke of Franconia takes the stand:
"Once again,Prinz Henry has shown his wisdom in the matters of the state. I agree that it would be good idea for the Chancellor to consult the Dukes on the matters of the defence of their lands. Some Houses need troops that suit the enemies they are facing.For example Poland and Hungary use lot of missile cavalry and Austria and Franconia need missile troops to shoot down those blasphemous horse archers and javelin hurlers. I had personal experience with an army that was not suited to fight our enemies and the result was near catastrophic.
Dietrich sits back on his place.
Maximillian Mandorf bangs his fist on the table very loudly.
Hear, hear! Prinz Henry's words must be heeded by all! The occupation of Bolognia is an affront to the entire Reich and it must be restored to Bavarian control immediately! Too long have we left the responsibility of security of our Houses to those outside our lands. Bavaria supplies the majority of the highest quality troops in all of the armies of the Reich. Innsbruck is the heart of our military power, yet the security of Bavaria itself has been neglected. We have relied upon the Emperor and the Chancellor to protect our lands and our interests, and they have failed us!
I see similar problems for the most noble Houses of Austria and Franconia. Duke Leopold, where was the Imperial assistance you so desperately needed when Vienna was under siege? Duke von Saxony, has one single Imperial soldier marched north to defend you against the traitorous Poles? We have all been forced to tend to our own defenses, yet we have no voice in how this is to be done. It is an outrage and we must rectify the situation at once. My own people in Nuremburg have been terrorized by rebels to the north of the city for years now, but the Chancellor has done nothing to remove these vagabonds!
I fully support the Prinz's proposal, but I would urge the Diet to move the issue even further. Let each House be allowed to mandate a standing army which must remain within the borders of the House to defend it from rebels and outside attacks. If each of us has an army available to us, we can never be caught totally unprepared by a foe, and we will never have to suffer the difficulties that Franconia, Austria, and Bavaria have already endured. I will propose this as a Charter Amendment at the next Diet.