Rise of Civilizations [Concluded]

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Originally Posted by Caius Flaminius

I propose an alliance between our peoples

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Not that I don't want you as an ally, Caius, I just need to know a little more info on what's happened exactly before I go making alliances. The game is full swing, and I don't want to get tangled into some massive world war right off the bat. You are the first on my list, however. Anyone else who wants to be allied, just be a little patient as I get acclimated and can more accurately judge the situation. It does help to let me know your intent as soon as possible, I reward those who step forward.

The only massive war (actually, the only war, period) that's happening right now is taking place in Britain, and, if I get my way, the Faroe Islands. So you should be safe. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Caius Flaminius

I propose an alliance between our peoples

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Sorry, but I'm gonna have to decline that offer. I think I'm looking for a slightly better, more powerful ally than you. Just stay off my land and you won't suffer the consequences.

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Originally Posted by greaterkhaan

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to decline that offer. I think I'm looking for a slightly better, more powerful ally than you. Just stay off my land and you won't suffer the consequences.

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Do you have lands?

:beam:

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Originally Posted by Caius Flaminius

Do you have lands?

:beam:

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I will soon. Keep up the attitude and I might have to swallow up your lands as well.:charge:

In Iberia?

Lucjan is assigning my location randomly based on a few unpopulated areas. Like, oh, say, west Africa, perhaps just south of Gibraltar. It isn't based on actual mongol location neccessarily. Besides, its fun to trash talk.

Ohhh, North Africa would be interesting.

A no strings attached alliance with Russia is avaliable if you want it :yes:

What if he spawns in your area?

My zone of control is large enough at the moment that we could coexist peacefully for a while, at least

Alliance accepted. There's plenty of room out east to expand if I indeed spawn there.

So I guess this turn it's...

ATTACK ON YORK II:
This Time It's Personal

Come see the Scottish army try to put an end to the last Anglo-Saxon city on Britain, while the Defenders of York try to hold off the forces of the largest army in the world for a second time!

The Anglo Saxons have suffered a series of crippling set backs as all other civilizations on the Britain and Ireland allied to attack them, capturing nearly all their cities and castles with combined assaults. Yet the Anglo Saxons managed to defeat the Scots on the very walls of their capital in their only victory so far, holding on to their last refuge.

Place your bets, ladies and gents. As tradition demands, I will be eating roast deer and drinking heady mead whilst enjoying the show.

Crazed "The Pharaoh" Rabbit

:laugh4:

Oh yeah, that reminds me. I need to send in my orders. Thanks. :yes:

Corisca today announces that it will offer support and military assistance to anyone FLEEING the British Isles and this unholy alliance. I shall protect you if you are attempting to set up colonies elsewhere, and we shall have an alliance if you so wish.

Funny, I've been called "unholy" a lot recently. :laugh4:

Maybe we are telling you something...

Lucjan have I sent in my orders? I can't remember

King Cedric thanks the Corsicans for their offer of protection, and urges them to put an end to the massacres of the Scots and Normans.

I would do so, but I fear I am too far away.

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Funny, I've been called "unholy" a lot recently. :laugh4:

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Your kingdom is abnormally, and disturbingly, scarce of voids.

Egypt wishes to announce that, for a modest* donation**, it will form a League of Civilizations United for Peace Committee that will harshly denounce any nation that mongers war*** and bring down the wrath of the civilized world upon them!****

Act now and get a discount - have the LCUPC act against two warmongers for the price of one! Base price is 1000 gold.

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Thanks.

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You're welcome. Wouldn't be much of a show if one side forgot to show up, would it?

Crazed Rabbit

*Substantial
**Bribe
***Anyone you dislike
****We'll send a sternly worded letter

Anyone willing to be my ally?

I just discover I have plans to grow up.Just contact me.

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Originally Posted by Caius Flaminius

Anyone willing to be my ally?

I just discover I have plans to grow up.Just contact me.

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I could use more friends.

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Originally Posted by Motep

I could use a friend.

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Fixed it for you :P :laugh4::clown:

I'm sending out all financial reports today, and the turn report will be released tomorrow in order to pull the Mongols into the game on a fair footing. There's a few things I need to work out with him and then we'll be good to go.

interesting, lucjan. but i'm guessing you have your hands full :)

a couple of suggestions for your next game. put all the buildable city locations on the map to start with, but no provinces. all those locations are considered villages until someone joins the game and is assigned to it. then, it's automatically upgraded to the size of your choice.

if a player settles/conquers 3 or more adjoining villages, THEN that area becomes a province and ONLY then can it have a castle and only one castle per province. if it's not a province, then no castle allowed.

once a castle is established, shld a player lose one of his cities (or it becomes un-taxable) within a province, the castle remains in the player's hands until such time as the other cities are lost or the castle is successfully attacked and overrun.

if any city is attacked within a province with a castle, the castle defences AUTOMATICALLY come into play. in other words, attacking a city in a province is the same as attacking the castle.

if the province loses all of its cities, the castle is automatically abandoned and lost. it either becomes neutral or falls into someone else's hands.

by fixing the village locations before the game starts, you eliminate all this stuff about how far a settlement has to be from a current settlement and you dont need to worry about the exact location of the castle in the province.

the best population increase rate is simple, a certain percentage increase per year, not season. or, even simpler, a city increases by +1 size per year or by 0.5 or whatever you wish. taxes are based on city size.

a successful raid on a city decreases it by -1 (or whatever). and your other rules for sacking or ruining apply.

trade routes are simple. neighboring cities only by land. by sea increase this by +2 or so. or, for sea, allow all mediterraens to trade by sea and all atlantics to trade with each other. this fosters trade among the actual players and rewards them for getting closer to each other.

if a city is completely destroyed, it can only be rebuilt in the same location. dont allow new cities all over anywhere.

also, by fixing the starting villages, you avoid all the 'how can a desert city produce as much as my fertile city?' questions. this keeps it simple. you simply dont put villages in the desert, unless you do want to do a nomad type. you also avoid the small island having 16 cities on it thing. a small island that only has 1 or 2 cities cannot be a province by itself. however, it could be a province if an adjoining land mass has a city on it that the player owned.

also, you'd best define 'adjoining' here, since someone is going to inevitably say that london adjoins alexandria by virtue of the sea and thus my province is london, alexandria and some city on gibraltar :)

keep it simple. conceptualize everything. the micromanagement, as i see you've found out, can drive you nuts in a hurry. also, pawn off some of that management to the players, if possible. have them compute their taxes collected and submit it to you for approval.

and perhaps most importantly, it would be vastly better if you played the gamemaster rather than gamemaster AND player. you have a vastly superior knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes. so, it might be judicious in this first game, to make all trades, deals, pacts, and so on, public, just for the sake of fairness. but that's up to you and the other players.

you might also delineate 'sea provinces', which would be a somewhat arbitrary area that one could travel by sea in a given turn. and show this on the map.

and, i think you shld add a fourth military unit. ships. these are bought and sold like other units. i'd keep it simple and call it a 'fleet'. one fleet can either transport one army or set up blockades or whatever else ships do. fleets could be combined into 'armadas' for the sake of fighting and transporting. just have a generic ship/fleet that can both fight on sea and transport troops.

ships/fleets/armadas that get sunk that are carrying troops, lose the troops too.

'pirate' fleets follow all the same rules as other ships/fleets. same cost, same transport rate and so on. the only thing that makes them pirates is that the player chooses to call them that.

fog of war is VERY important in a game like this. you might want to set up rules for this. how far away can a potential enemy see your army coming?

i would also consider adding roads/paths to the map. just travelling 250 km in one turn is pretty broad and loose and takes nothing like mountains and rivers into consideration. generally, villages were a day's ride away from each other. i'd be very tempted to add road 'segments'. a segment would the distance one could travel in a day or so. so, in a season, you could travel X number of segments and only by road. there was a game many years ago set in japan that did this somewhat, only you traveled by road in one turn from one city to the next. as your map fills up with owned cities, roads become crucial and strategic. ;)

anyways, i admire what you're doing. looks like fun. i've read the entire 12 pages of the thread and am watching to see how this progresses. i may even join in at some point :)

Interesting suggestions, Kraellin. I'll comment on a few, if I may.

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Originally Posted by Kraellin

a couple of suggestions for your next game. put all the buildable city locations on the map to start with, but no provinces. all those locations are considered villages until someone joins the game and is assigned to it. then, it's automatically upgraded to the size of your choice.

if a player settles/conquers 3 or more adjoining villages, THEN that area becomes a province and ONLY then can it have a castle and only one castle per province. if it's not a province, then no castle allowed.

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I have to disagree - part of the fun is placing new cities. Having a pre-set map of cities would take away from the fun and strategy (and be a pain to make, methinks). There should be some limit on concentration of cities, though.

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if any city is attacked within a province with a castle, the castle defences AUTOMATICALLY come into play. in other words, attacking a city in a province is the same as attacking the castle.

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I'd prefer a castle remain in the hands of who built it until it's taken, and that there are no prerequisites for castles. Enemy armies could still loot around the castle, to try and bait them out.

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the best population increase rate is simple, a certain percentage increase per year, not season. or, even simpler, a city increases by +1 size per year or by 0.5 or whatever you wish. taxes are based on city size.

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Population adds a lot of difficulty, and I'm not sure what the best approach is yet.

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trade routes are simple. neighboring cities only by land. by sea increase this by +2 or so. or, for sea, allow all mediterraens to trade by sea and all atlantics to trade with each other. this fosters trade among the actual players and rewards them for getting closer to each other.

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I think ports should be able to trade with most of the other ports on the map. Inland cities should only be able to trade with other cities they are 'connected to' which would need defining, and also benefit from nearby port cities.
Right now we're using the simple solution.

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also, by fixing the starting villages, you avoid all the 'how can a desert city produce as much as my fertile city?' questions. this keeps it simple. you simply dont put villages in the desert, unless you do want to do a nomad type.

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They're conglomerations of nomads, dangit! ~;p I may be biased, being Egypt.

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and perhaps most importantly, it would be vastly better if you played the gamemaster rather than gamemaster AND player. you have a vastly superior knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes.

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That is true. He knows all my cities, military might, and where I send my forces. The tough thing would be if anyone got in a war with Poland - no sneak attacks there. However, everyone knows who's trading with whom, and I'd rather only one person knew everything about my turns than everyone.

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and, i think you shld add a fourth military unit. ships. these are bought and sold like other units. i'd keep it simple and call it a 'fleet'. one fleet can either transport one army or set up blockades or whatever else ships do. fleets could be combined into 'armadas' for the sake of fighting and transporting. just have a generic ship/fleet that can both fight on sea and transport troops.

ships/fleets/armadas that get sunk that are carrying troops, lose the troops too.

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I completely agree. They'd have to be 'purchased' in ports, too, methinks.

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anyways, i admire what you're doing. looks like fun. i've read the entire 12 pages of the thread and am watching to see how this progresses. i may even join in at some point :)

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Well as you've seen, it seems possible to join late. You may suffer some due to starting out late, but I'm sure you could handle it.

Crazed Rabbit

There's a few good points there and a few I'd disagree with, but I'm one person, and making all these changes mid game would be disastrous to not only my ability to keep track of everything, but our players understanding of what's going on.

Maybe in a second run when this game ends we'll look at some alterations.
As far as me playing and being the game master at the same time. The top 5 players speak for themselves. I'm not even up there. I started the game and there are players with a better grasp of it's strategic elements than myself. :sweatdrop:

Thank you for the time you took to write all that up though, and it is appreciated, maybe when this game ends we can talk more about it, or, like you said, you'll join this one later?

TURN 5 WORLD REPORT

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://i126.photobucket.com/albums/...s/RoCturn5.jpg

The tide has turned in the British isles, with unpaid soldiers deserting en masse from the Scottish ranks following yet another repelled attack at the walls of York and a defeat by the hands of the Faroe Island fleet. The Anglo Saxon king has led his people back to their homelands in eastern Germany where they have been guaranteed safety and a defensive alliance by the King of Poland in exchange for becoming a Polish vassal.

Irish and English armies arrived after the failed Scottish assault and managed to throw the Yorkish defenders into desperation. The city withheld, but will likely not stand another assault, even by the routing Scots, the city would most likely fall.

In the meantime, a Corsican fleet landed just south of a French city that recently gave its allegiance to the French crown, and appears to be heading west in a direct route along the Pyrenees towards the sea.

The Faroe Islands seem to have united the international community behind them in their plight, and gold from around the world was used to draft soldiers into the army that sent the Scots packing on the seas. Their new found military superiority and their ability to unite the international world makes them strong. Their army has pushed the Scottish agressors back to Stornoway, where they wait for their kings orders.

The might of the world's growing nations is beginning to show, with cities springing up without the monetary aid of royal coffers and allying themselves with their cultural brethren.

But a new power has emerged in the east. The Mongol horde has come from the far east, settling around the Aral and Caspian seas. Their intentions are as yet unclear, but they have come in vast numbers, equal to a moderately powerful kingdom of the west. However, they are new to these lands, and some call their ways barbaric, uncivilized. Can they survive and earn their place?

Sorry for the double post, but actually Kraellin, send me a pm, I'd like to talk about a few ideas with you, since you've taken such an interest in the game mechanics.

Does anyone wish an alliance? All emissaries should be instructed to the Imperial Capital of Khaanstantinople.

What are your intentions in the Kingdom of France, Arach?

If you're looking for new colonies, I suggest Northern Africa looks more hospitable to you genteel Corsican folk. If you're stopping off for a rest, then I welcome you with open arms.

York held? From combined assaults of Scottish, Irish, and English forces? Whoa, good thing I didn't bet on that.

This is an awfully good show. *eats more deer, washes down with mead*

The Mongols certainly became a presence overnight in the east.

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Does anyone wish an alliance? All emissaries should be instructed to the Imperial Capital of Khaanstantinople.

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The Egyptians are always seeking peace - perhaps a non-aggression treaty, or an alliance?

Crazed Rabbit

Lucjan, York isn't still under siege is it? It shouldn't be, since it repulsed the assaults.

no, i wouldnt change anything in this game. it's started; let it run.

the fixed cities thing has another couple of advantages. one, lucjan is going to find himself with a full time job pretty quickly here. just project things out a bit more the way they're going and you'll see that a couple hundred cities are going to task lucjan pretty hard to keep up with all the management.

and two, fixed cities gives you some control over things like central europe being highly populated while outer russia shld be quite a bit less populated. so, the cities in russia would be further apart.

you could and would still have desert cities, but they would be spread way out.

another advantage of this is that if you take a regional area like germany or france, you would have a higher concentration of people and cities and this would draw folks to take that as a starting position, but be a bit harder to defend, perhaps, because of its central location. whereas russia would be more protected simply by being more remote, but it would have a smaller population and city count and thus have the draw of being somewhat isolated and therefore safer, at least in the early game.

roads and trade routes simply add a convention of common paths of travel and therefore eliminate the difficulties of crossing mountains and rivers and wide deserts. you can just ignore those terrain conditions when moving by road. and if all movement is by road, then there's never any question of how far an army or group of settlers can move in one turn. again, this makes lucjan's life easier.

also, if you got really tricky, you could just do movement as 'city to city'. a group traveling would travel one city to one city in one turn. that would change the length of the turn from 'season' to something else, but that's easy to do. if two armies meet during that travel, on the road, and are hostile, they simply resolve things before moving to their final destination city.

there are other concepts coming into play here too that i find interesting. the whole 'i claim this land in the name of ____' is a very good concept. possibly hard to actually implement in mechanics but certainly great for role play. i loved the declaration by the russian factioni of 'these lands are ours' regardless of the fact that they had no cities anywhere close to some of that land :) very bold :)

i also see another thing going on i hadnt thought of. folks are purposely putting cities further away from their first one that i thought they would. this is securing them vast amounts of territory into very large provinces. tricky :) but, can they now go back and build new cities within those provinces? some of these questions are unaswered as of yet.

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I'd prefer a castle remain in the hands of who built it until it's taken, and that there are no prerequisites for castles. Enemy armies could still loot around the castle, to try and bait them out.

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yes, i already said you'd have to take the castle, since a city has to be attacked to take it and if the castle is auto-defending, you'd essentially have to take the castle to take the city. but, i also agree that my system is arbitrary and i generally hate those, but i'm trying to think of lucjan's job here and how much he has to do.

the problem with ports being able to trade with any and all other ports on the map is the complete disregard for time and distance. going from egypt to sicily isnt bad, but going from egypt to london is, at least, all in one turn. so, trade by port shld be somewhat based on distance. and again, to make life easier for lucjan, i simplified it quite a bit. if you did sea boundaries/territories, that would work, but is more work to manage.

the only reason i mentioned gm'ing and playing in the same game is that i've done it. if you win, some raise their eyebrows and even make accusations and if you lose, i always found myself holding myself back because if i won it would look too suspicious. and i hate holding myself back :) but, if the other have no grief i wouldnt worry about it. just have fun :)

as for pm'ing you, i'd rather just keep all this in the open and let others contribute and debate the ideas. besides, i hate the pm system :)

i do find watching this quite interesting, though. so, good luck to all!

Mongols, you show promise of becoming good romans, we wish to ally with you good people.

The ottomens also wish to ally with the fair mongol people.

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Lucjan, York isn't still under siege is it? It shouldn't be, since it repulsed the assaults.

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There's still troops outside your walls.

Ichigo, did you nab Lancaster off the Irish?

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Ichigo, did you nab Lancaster off the Irish?

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Not sure how that happened.:dizzy2:

The mongols may secure a NAP with Russia by vowing not to expand north or westward into russia but rather in the south.

It is reccomended that they obey.

Lol, sapi. Want to make sure you get your 1/5 of the world all to yourself? ~;p

Anyways, for all your viewing pleasure, and because I had a lot of free time this evening, I present to you,
Fresh from the greatest scholars at the glorious Library of Cairo,
The History of the World, Part 1:
https://img441.imageshack.us/img441/...melineddn1.gif

The quality's a bit down, but you can make out enough detail - the red X's are battles. (for fun, check out England in the third frame)

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by HughTower

What are your intentions in the Kingdom of France, Arach?

If you're looking for new colonies, I suggest Northern Africa looks more hospitable to you genteel Corsican folk. If you're stopping off for a rest, then I welcome you with open arms.

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Fear not, they mean your citizens no harm. They are moving through to the other ocean. This is just a more direct route.

Yes that's right, I may enter the British Isles fighting :wink:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Fear not, they mean your citizens no harm. They are moving through to the other ocean. This is just a more direct route.

Yes that's right, I may enter the British Isles fighting :wink:

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Well then, the lovely womenfolk of France are running out of their homes to offer you fine cheese & delectable cured meats in a fine French welcome.

The men, however, are less trusting & are at home sharpening their scythes & waxing their moustaches, whilst moodily looking out of their windows at your passing army & hoping that they won't have them to use on Corsican necks.

Use your scythes on Norman necks instead.

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Originally Posted by sapi

The mongols may secure a NAP with Russia by vowing not to expand north or westward into russia but rather in the south.

It is reccomended that they obey.

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I cannot promise that I won't expand east or north, after all, there is simply no way I can pass up that much land. Also, what kind of ruler would I be if I just submitted to all of the slightest whims of my neighbors.

The Mongols would welcome an alliance with the Ottamans and Romans and a NAP with the Egyptians.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Fear not, they mean your citizens no harm. They are moving through to the other ocean. This is just a more direct route.

Yes that's right, I may enter the British Isles fighting :wink:

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I wish you no ill will, but what are your intentions in our now somewhat peaceful Isles?

Peaceful? :inquisitive:

For the last three turns you've had three battles or more in Britain (as can be seen from my handy History of the World Part 1).

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Peaceful? :inquisitive:

For the last three turns you've had three battles or more in Britain (as can be seen from my handy History of the World Part 1).

Crazed Rabbit

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somewhat

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It's starting to calm down a little once Ign. gives up York. Well then there's Faroe Island, but they never should have expanded into Scotland.:sweatdrop:

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i also see another thing going on i hadnt thought of. folks are purposely putting cities further away from their first one that i thought they would. this is securing them vast amounts of territory into very large provinces. tricky :) but, can they now go back and build new cities within those provinces? some of these questions are unaswered as of yet.

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It was answered somewhere a while ago and probably just got lost. Yes, territory can be further filled with cities even if it already constitutes a province.

Crazed Rabbit - I really like that History of the World you put together. :2thumbsup: Great idea that reminds me of the Civ games. :yes:

Kraellin - Actually, you bring up a good point in regards to hundreds of cities. My concern isn't the workload on me, but players having to keep track of them all. Any suggestions on somehow implementing a distance based settlement limit? Or some other idea?

EDIT - I don't see the Brit Isles calming down any time soon. What with the Scots jumping into a second war before the first was even over and the islands losing their focus on a common enemy when York falls, who is going to remain loyal to their allies and who is going to jump on them? It's a tough call.

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

I wish you no ill will, but what are your intentions in our now somewhat peaceful Isles?

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My intentions are hidden.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

My intentions are hidden.

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Devon.

Eh?

It's a county in south west England, I think, currently uninhabited in our game.

Lucjan - Thanks, I'm glad someone noticed. *glares at others and pouts*

CR

Hehe, that would be cool. But no, not a colonisation mission.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Hehe, that would be cool. But no, not a colonisation mission.

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If you won't reveal your intentions then any attempt at gaining entrance into the isles shall be met with resistance. I would like to avoid violence, but if you endanger me or my allies then I shall have no other choice.

I understand that. It doesn't bother me at all.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I understand that. It doesn't bother me at all.

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Just letting you know.

You have no right to stop people marching in England, or the means to support it.

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

You have no right to stop people marching in England, or the means to support it.

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How do I have no right to defend my people and my allies? I've taken more than one of your cities. I think I'm entirely capable of defending my own.

Ah, but you have been weakened by the continual defiance of York. Though it shall fall, your reputation has been sullied.

Yes, because those electronic dice can be absolutely devastating to one's reputation. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Ah, but you have been weakened by the continual defiance of York. Though it shall fall, your reputation has been sullied.

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You don't know how many troops I have. There's only a small percentage at York.

The noted scholars at the library of Cairo might point out that it is not any electronic dice that weakens the reputation of the allied Irish, Scottish, and English nations.
Rather it is the fact that three allied nations cannot defeat completely one enemy nation after three seasons of war on that small island.

Our scholars, poring over historical records, note that the Scottish army has a zero for three record of victories in battle - losing when assaulting York, losing again assaulting York, and losing to invading Islanders. The Irish have an even record - victory in assaulting a Saxon castle with the English, and defeat when assaulting York with the English. Only the English have a winning record of two victories and one defeat.

With this in mind, and the recent records of Scotsmen running in retreat from York, and some of the survivors deserting, our military scholars feel it might not be solely because of 'electronic dice' that the military reputation of the nations of Britain are tarnished.

That's been your 'History of the World Part 1: Expansion and War' update for today.

Curious scholars want to know; who's going to get to keep York?
:egypt:
Crazed Rabbit

It shall be fun to watch the various Brits bash each other inwards to keep it.

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Curious scholars want to know; who's going to get to keep York?

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They'll have to wait to find out.

I have a winning record! Wooooooo. If the Corsican's try anything fishy it'll be 3-1

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They'll have to wait to find out.

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~:(

Well, a thorough series of Histories will probably have to wait until after the game, or at least after each war.

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I have a winning record! Wooooooo. If the Corsican's try anything fishy it'll be 3-1

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Personally, I'm surprised York hasn't fallen already - are they just tenacious defenders, or are the attackers not putting their full force behind it? GH split up his troops to attack the Faroe Islanders before he finished off York, and you claim that most of your troops were not behind the assault at York.

Meanwhile, the busy beavers at the Library of Cairo will keep on researching, because there's nothing much else for them to do. :whip:

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

~:(

Well, a thorough series of Histories will probably have to wait until after the game, or at least after each war.



Personally, I'm surprised York hasn't fallen already - are they just tenacious defenders, or are the attackers not putting their full force behind it? GH split up his troops to attack the Faroe Islanders before he finished off York, and you claim that most of your troops were not behind the assault at York.

Meanwhile, the busy beavers at the Library of Cairo will keep on researching, because there's nothing much else for them to do. :whip:

Crazed Rabbit

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Well considering it's the capitol it's pretty hard to take.

Those Greeks and Ottomans are looking pretty menacing.:shocked:

I'm quite glad the York's held out as long as it has; it prevents the British from fighting elsewhere.

Btw, Crazed Rabbit, lovely map/graphic thing. Your scholars are the envy of the world.

@ Kraellin / Lucjan - re: gameplay tweaks, the only alteration I'd like to see is a point of difference on the trade aspect of the game. Inland cities should only trade with their neighbours, imo. Players should be forced to make harder choices between building armies & making money. Not sure at the mo how you do that, but I'll have a think. Fun game though - thanks again.

Yes, you have a very nice little history thing going on now. Make those slaves scholors in Cairo delve deeper into the situation.

I sent the orders Lucjan. I need a finance report! :sweatdrop:

Back on topic, I agree with the coastal vs inland cities with regard to trading. Also, maybe a limit to how closely spaced cities may be placed passed a certain lattitude and longitude... so as to force the steppes, desert, and northern areas to be sparsely populated.

crazed, i like your animation :) as one sitting here watching, that gives a very easy visual idea of what's gone on.

as for city proximity, lucjan, there's lots of ways to do it. VILLAGES were somewhat traditionally a 'day's ride' apart. that's by horse. so, what, maybe 50 miles? convert to kilometers and that's close to what i'd use.

but, if you add in the rapid growth of the map and cities, you might want to modify that somewhat here, since you've got a VERY EASY growth rate. TOWNS and larger CITIES would be further apart from each other, with villages inbetween. so, it's a bit of a wild card there.

and terrain was a HUGE factor back then. rivers were often the main roads and certainly a great source of fresh water and power for things like mills. add bridges and fords into that and that would be a big factor too and could make for some interesting choke points in your gameplay.

for simplicity, i'd use at least a 50 mile limit or, conceptualize the whole village thing and just say they exist without showing them and make city to city proximity something wider, like 100 miles maybe. or, since you already have that 250 km scale thing going, maybe say cities cant be any closer than half of that. that's CITIES, not villages.

if you want to get fancier with it, you could do a thing of cities cant be closer to another city than 100 km but smaller towns could be, but then they cant ever grow larger than that because of the city proximity rule.

but, frankly, i'd still go with a fixed location for all of them. or, divide the map up into acres or hectares or something or larger plots and only allow one city per plot. it could be anywhere in the plot but only one per plot. how big that plot might be would be up to you.

and then i'd do the province thing based on any 3 to 5 or 3 to 7 grouping becomes an official province.

you might also allow ONE CITY to be the capital for that person and give an extra bonus size to that one and only that one.

and with a system of 'plots' you might then either allow one castle per plot or one castle per province like i originally suggested.

but regardless of how you do it, this is fun and interesting to watch. i'm enjoying the verbal swats and interplay here. nice to have it all logged in one place to be able to read it each day.

and by the way, i predict the russians will win ;)

edit: oh, and again, the central countries shld still have the ability to group cities closer or if using plots,the plots would be smaller, where the outlying plots (like in russia) would be larger.

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Originally Posted by K

and by the way, i predict the russians will win ;)

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I predict the Iberians will win.

:bounce:

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Back on topic, I agree with the coastal vs inland cities with regard to trading.

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Hmm. Not a bad idea, but I think cities connected to ports by land routes should receive 'bonus' trade as a fraction of how many ports they're connected to, and how many trade routes go through those ports.

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Also, maybe a limit to how closely spaced cities may be placed passed a certain lattitude and longitude... so as to force the steppes, desert, and northern areas to be sparsely populated.

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I think we will need some sort of city density limit. One, however, that is equal across the map - no fair changing the rules halfway in. One city every 50miles/80km wouldn't be bad, at least for cities founded by the same person.

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Those Greeks and Ottomans are looking pretty menacing.

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Actually, the eastern Med is pretty chill when there's no religious wars going on. We know how to kick back, open a refreshing flask of one of a hundred different drinks made fresh here, and enjoy the good weather and sun. :2thumbsup: :medievalcheers: :cool4: :barrel:

Maybe all the lousy weather in Britain is driving you guys to exterminate each other. ~;p

Crazed Rabbit

Yes, we of the east (especially Mongols) do not resort to the sort of barbaric extermination that those uncouth Europeans in the isles have attempted. Not that it won't be fun to watch you all trying to kill each other.

I'm freaking out man

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think we will need some sort of city density limit. One, however, that is equal across the map - no fair changing the rules halfway in. One city every 50miles/80km wouldn't be bad, at least for cities founded by the same person.

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Nations on the steppes and in northern Europe (like Denmark) already have an advantage being on the periphery of the map. In addition, they might be able to expand extensively without encountering any other nation (ie threat). Yes, maybe a standard density limit is needed, but above a certain latitude and east of a certain longitude, a lower density limit would do good. I forget exactly how much of Africa is shown on the map, maybe a stricter density limit wouldn't be needed there.

This would be easy to incorporate, just mark out the lines on the map, and set the rule that "no city may be founded within ___ km of another city" (unless separated by ocean, for the case of islands).

*edit* this is also rather "nice" because the lower densities would, coincidentally, correspond with historically sparsely inhabited regions.

Nooo! No city density! I wouldn't be able to get two cities on Sardinia!

Yeah. I want every part of the Italian Penisula covered with cities :grin:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Nooo! No city density! I wouldn't be able to get two cities on Sardinia!

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:laugh4:

Seriously though, to my suggestion I would add the provision that islands, including the British isles, are excepted.