Sengoku Jidai, Japanese interactive History

To Otomo from Hojo,

I dont have anything against foreign influences in everyday life. But asking for foreign military aid is offering them influence over Japan. Should Shogun Ashikaga now call for support from China as he has diplomatic relationship with the Ming?

I am sure that he is not so foolish and can only hope that the Portuguese will respect their agreements with the bakufu and not heed words of rebels and subjugate first Kyushu and then the rest of Japan because you offer them chance to do that.

Hojo Ujiyasu

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

To Otomo from Hojo,

I dont have anything against foreign influences in everyday life. But asking for foreign military aid is offering them influence over Japan. Should Shogun Ashikaga now call for support from China as he has diplomatic relationship with the Ming?

I am sure that he is not so foolish and can only hope that the Portuguese will respect their agreements with the bakufu and not heed words of rebels and subjugate first Kyushu and then the rest of Japan because you offer them chance to do that.

Hojo Ujiyasu

---

The Kanrei, as a member of the bakufu, would like to add that he hopes that the Portuguese are also wise enough not to interfere into the internal affairs of Nippon.

The Magoichi of the Saika Monto would like to announce proudly that we stand by the Miyoshi in this conflict, and would like to point out to the Ishiyama Honganji if they have any negative feeling toward this decision, that although our sect is against the traditional ways of Japan, Otomo seems to be going for an even stronger warrior class, and they are the greater threat.

I have meditated on the recent developments and arrived to the conclusion, that we have no other option, than to denounce our alliance with the Ôtomo and the Shimazu clans. I do not want to see foreigners play a part in this war nor do I want to see them have any influence over the politics of Japan. To add to the insult, you failed to even discuss with us, your eastern allies, your idea of inviting these greedy gaijin to support your endeavours. We did not even get a chance to stop you from perpetrating this rank stupidity. Our alliance is void from this moment forward. Your men with us will be given the chance to either join our forces or make their way back to Kyushu on their own.

Oda Nobunaga

The Bakufu dishonored any agreements they had with the Portoguese when they decided to issue unprovoked edicts to persecute christians throughout Nippon. Furthermore, making alliances and asking for military support of foreigners is not by any means an odd or shameful occurrance. It is commonplace and I will not refrain from it simply because you make up silly reasons for why I should not.

Ôtomo Sorin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

I have meditated on the recent developments and arrived to the conclusion, that we have no other option, than to denounce our alliance with the Ôtomo and the Shimazu clans. I do not want to see foreigners play a part in this war nor do I want to see them have any influence over the politics of Japan. To add to the insult, you failed to even discuss with us, your eastern allies, your idea of inviting these greedy gaijin to support your endeavours. We did not even get a chance to stop you from perpetrating this rank stupidity. Our alliance is void from this moment forward. Your men with us will be given the chance to either join our forces or make their way back to Kyushu on their own.

Oda Nobunaga

---

How can I be sure, Oda Nobunaga, that this is not one of the numerous tricks you have used so far. I won't be surprised if you have some secret deal with the same daimyo who so generously sponsored you and your allies.

The Kanrei

Why am I not surprised...

Ôtomo Sorin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephen Asen

How can I be sure, Oda Nobunaga, that this is not one of the numerous tricks you have used so far. I won't be surprised if you have some secret deal with the same daimyo who so generously sponsored you and your allies.

The Kanrei

---

Seeing as I am still locked in mortal combat with you and like you have already stated, that this has gone too far to ever be resolved peacefully, what does it matter to me if you're sure or not? Does it change a thing in our relations? Unless you are willing to offer us a peace that satisfies us and our condition of continued independence, we will fight against you. As I have stated, I did not want this war with you, but the Oda clan will rather die than surrender our freedom.

Oda Nobunaga

The synchronism between you and Otomo is obvious, Oda Nobunaga. You knew what kind of person Lord Otomo is when you accepted 10 000 koku in men and gold aid last year. Now you saw that you can not act in public because of the incompetence of Otomo and decided to declare this alliance as "void". I seriously doubt how sincere you are and I hope that not many people will believe you, rebel.

Miyoshi Chokei, Kanrei

Then it will surely be death, Nobunaga. You and your tattered band of petty allies are helpless without my support. I strongly urge you to rethink your position.

Ôtomo Sorin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephen Asen

The synchronism between you and Otomo is obvious, Oda Nobunaga. You knew what kind of person Lord Otomo is when you accepted 10 000 koku in men and gold aid last year. Now you saw that you can not act in public because of the incompetence of Otomo and decided to declare this alliance as "void". I seriously doubt how sincere you are and I hope that not many people will believe you, rebel.

Miyoshi Chokei, Kanrei

---

I did not foresee this act of weakness. I can tolerate a Christian daimyo, but one that begs for foreigners to join this war is a completely another matter and I can not call myself the ally of such a man. But as long as you persist with your hostilities against me and my remaining allies, I have little option but to fight you.

Oda Nobunaga

Can someone please tell me the deadline for when we have to pm our moves etc. ?

There ain't one yet, I suppose we'll know once we get our info pm's.

From Shimazu Takahisa to Hôjô Ujiyasu:

I see Your point fellow Daimyô. But still I do not think there is a difference between an armed foreigner and an Ashigaru with the foreigner's weapon, paid with foreign trade's revenues. Since you seem to greatly disrespect the cultures that brought all of You weapons and wealth, You should be very glad to see rather one of them die than a Japanese peasant.
I do not wish to accuse a single one of You of mispresentation, but I am afraid that foreigners entering deeper into Japanese internal affairs do not hurt You as much as them possibly quitting the lucrative trade contracts You pay Your armies with.

Shimazu Takahisa


From Shimazu Takahisa to Oda Nobunaga:

I aggrievingly accept Your decision, Oda Nobunaga, and thank You for concession concerning my men. May God decide on which sides we will be standing the next time our ways cross.

Respectfully,


Shimazu Takahisa

To Shimazu from Hojo,

While we stand on different sides in this conflict. I have nothing personally against the Shimazu Clan.I have only respect for the Satsuma samurai. Nevertheless. I think that you might be mixing up my cautiosness towards Nanban , with hostility.
I see foreigners like fire. We are not alone in this world and foreign inventions and influences are needed for development. So when controlled, Nanban and their goods are essential. But like fire. You cant give them power or it will burn down your house. When you give land to Nanban, were they Portuguese, Dutch or Chinese for example, their interest towards our country will change. Currently their interest are mainly concerning trade. If you allow them to have political interest. I am afraid our Islands then can become targets of expansionism. That is what i am afraid of. Call me coward, but i also was very much afraid and knowledged the combined power of both Uesugi branches and Kanto Kubo when they surrounded my Kawagoe castle with 100 000 men, back in 45. The difference is that one can be and should be afraid of certain things, but you should not give fear a hold of yourself, but use it to your own benefit so you dont lower your guard.

Hojo Ujiyasu

Is there any way to contact the Europeans or Korea to hire men or weapons etc?

From Date Harumune:

Regarding the winter campaign against the traitorous Oura clan. The taken course of action was decided upon after numerous occasions of disrespect to both the Date clan borders and those of our esteemed allies of the Mogami clan. Furthermore the Oura clan are strongly suspected to have secretly supported the Nanbu clan in its vile plans and can therefore not be tolerated to enjoy the possessions that they hold at this moment. Coming spring season they can be sure that their defenses will be tested again.

From Oura,

To put it short. Lord Date is lying. How did we supported Nanbu? When the war started we broke off from being a Nanbu vassal. I dont want to even comment about the disrespect of Clans or their borders. We supported Date and Mogami against Nanbu and this is how they repay their debt of honour. Like i said before all i can do is to warn Uesugi and Ashina about when my Clan is gone. There is little doubt against whom these two wretches turn their weapons.

Oura Tameaki

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Is there any way to contact the Europeans or Korea to hire men or weapons etc?

---

The thing is that while there are more than enough men and weapons in your lands, you just don't have the wealth to feed them for a year, so there is really nothing to gain by trying to hire foreigners as mercenaries. That said you can buy teppo/cannon from the europeans for a considerable fee, but at the same time Suzuki is selling the products from his gun factory and should be preferred to boost domestic production. At the moment I believe, that there are three active gun factories in Japan, but only Suzuki is selling the products.

OOC:
I want to make a few historical notes in relation to my letter to the Portoguese, for reference:

The Ôtomo did historically have close ties with both Portoguese traders and the Jesuites(these two forces were more or less inseperable). At one point, the Ôtomo asked for the assistance of european ships in the retaking of Moji castle, and it was rendered after some consideration, in the form of sea bombardment.
Aside from the Ôtomo, the Omura-clan would eventually go so far as to offer them land at Nagasaki (1580), with the prospect of recieving trade incomes, increasing their power and influence, and studying western science and culture. Before this, they too had recieved support of Portoguese warships and substantial numbers of guns, which allowed them to survive, even against fierce opposition from their stronger neighbours, mainly the Ryûzôji.

Nonetheless, the historical situation was very different from the one we have arrived at in this game. Firstly, the strength of the christian daimyô was considerably weaker. The Ôtomo was the only major christian clan, and they had firm grip over Bungo and Buzen only, other extensions being lose alliances and nominal vassalships. Furthermore, there was no government enforced policy of persecution towards christians(at this time), even while many local damyô did so on own accord. For these two reasons, the Ôtomo could not ask for and hope to recieve extensive support from the Portoguese, who did not want to upset the balance by alienating buddhist Lords who had christian converts living in their lands(mainly on Kyûshû), by supporting any one side. Regardless of this, they still supported the Ôtomo to some extent, and the Oura to a greater, which shows that they were much in favour of their christian partners gaining influence.

Also, there was never any deals formed between the bakufu and the Portoguese. The europeans realized just as much as the daimyô themselves, that Japan had no functioning central government to speak of, and approached the daimyô seperately. Hence why you will see old european documents refer to the daimyô as "King of province name"

A last note will be that, at this point, with the Spanish(1600), Dutch(1609) and English(1613) arriving later, the Portoguese, with their integral policy of missionary work, was the only european power trading with Japan. And they did so in Kyûshû exclusively. Had I known differently, my strategy would obviously have been less desireable.

It was in this rationale I decided to make this descision, and I hope the fun for everyone, and the oppertunity to take advantage of viable strategies, will not be nullified due to any lack of insight into the historical context. I write this to make clear that I'm not trying to "cheat", or do something that has no actual historical precedence.
Even while seriously decimated at that point, the Ôtomo, Omura and Arima sent an embassy to Rome in 1582, that was recieved by the Pope himself. The europeans on their part had much respect for the Japanese, their land, culture and capabilities. They were by some observers thought to be the most formidable people in Asia, also deeming them superior even to the europeans themselves.
So, had Kyûshû been united under christian rule, there is no telling how far the cooperation between the europeans and Japan might have gone, and how it may have impacted on the future of Japan as a nation. Exploring such hypothetical avenues is a large part of the fun with these kinds of games. And honestly why I picked the Ôtomo in the first place.

Thank you for reading

OOC:

Personally, i think the Otomo seeking outside help was a great idea to be incorporated, and I would really be interested to see if they can secure western aid. It has potential to really shake things up in the west and could even have ramifications for us eastern Daimyo as well. Games like this need exciting twists to keep it interesting and even if Otomo's request is denied it makes for great progression. :2thumbsup:

Lord Oda,

I am surprised at your actions, surely a weakling such as yourself needs all the allies he can get? You are nothing but rebel scum, and I shall be well pleased to see you dead. Nonetheless, you are no fool, and I will respect you, if only for your tactical abilities on the battlefield. I eagerly await the day when we shall cross each other's path.

Regards,

Yamana Yoshisada

Lord Otomo, the Nanban are not fools to directly interfere in our internal affairs! They will risk too much...
--------------
Lord Yamana, I think I will prevent the Oda from crossing your paths in the future. Do not worry about him, I am sure he still can rely on the Otomo help behind the scenes. His moves are just dust into the eyes. :bow:

OOC: The Shimazu were also Christians, btw.

Then tell me Kanrei, have you not openly adapted a policy of persecution against christians, and encouraged all Daimyô to do the same? The Portoguese has nothing to lose from supporting me and taking distance from you and your allies.
My alliance is already the gate to the rest of the world.
Nothing that comes or goes there do so without passing our lands. The Portoguese have no relations with the rest of you.
Moreover, I stand for free and mutual cooperation, and an open and forthcoming attitude, while you only prove hostility towards them and their customs. If this is not a matter of religion, then why have you more than anyone made it so? Everyone should know by now the kind of laws I maintain in my domains, I openly stated them, and they are a far cry from your hostile and narrowminded edicts.

Not only do I believe that the Portoguese will support me, I believe it is only right that your influence should be undermined, as to rid Nippon from the curse it presents. It is one thing to respond to religious fanaticism attacking peaceful practitioners, and an entirely different one to promote it yourself.
I do the former, and it can be considered as a wise attitude by any ruler. But one who himself encourage religious violence is an enemy of his own people, and make them an enemy of himself. And it comes as no surprise to me that you have thus found a partner in the Ikkô-shu. Which only adds hilarity to the equation, seeing how the two of you otherwise are exact opposites. And these wretches have as little reason to call themselves adherants of Jodo Shinshu, as you have to call yourself the servant of the Emperor.

And to all others who would think that I put us at risk to make us slaves of the europeans, I will say that I am entirely confident that the Portoguese will be happy to view us as allies on equal terms. It would be more beneficial to them than attempts of subjegation, which will only cause costly wars, while their support cost them virtually nothing at all, and will only increase their revenues with time.

None of you have been in so much contact with them as to determine what nature or attitude they possess, but I can safely say this: Giving them a lot of land is not making ourself vassals, and it will only quench any desire they might have had to undertake military expansion. I expect to recieve the same forthcoming terms as I myself have given, and it can only be considered as mutual cooperation. I will assist their interests in Asia, they will assist mine, and together we will grow stronger.

Then so what if they gain some influence? Does not all allies influence one another? Why should we be exempt from world politics, and practices both common and logical by any measure? I am not afraid of it. I am not afraid to make allies, nor am I afraid of changes.

Ôtomo Sorin

OOC:
The Shimazu were never christians historically. But it is not a rare misconception that they were, mainly due to the cross-like symbol of their clan.

So... um.... were info pm's sent out yet?

I received mine a few days ago, at least i got a pm stating the current state of my province and troops etc. with my income and expenditure, that was why I posted here a few days ago about a timelimit for sending our "moves" into Kagemusha.

Has nobody else received anything?

OOC: I never got my situation report, either.

Lord Otomo: Why do you need foreigners to fight your battles for you? Are you unable to defeat us yourself?

Lord Imagawa

Am I the only one who failed to spot the part where I wipe the floor clean with Kenshin? Or did Kage forget that part?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gobbledygook

Am I the only one who failed to spot the part where I wipe the floor clean with Kenshin? Or did Kage forget that part?

---

You missed it because Kenshin retreated to winter quarters.~;) But to rest, about half of you have got your reports.Rest are coming as soon as possible. Still most of you should be perfectly capable in engaging diplomacy etc. Since the winter was not the busiest of times.:bow:

Lord Imagawa, who are "us"? I was assuming you were the enemy of Oda and Asai. Since I am no longer part of their alliance, I am no longer a part of their war. Unless you absolutely want to fight me anyway, in which case I will be happy to oblige.

As for the rest, I do not know whether I am capable of defeating all my enemies or not. Who can know such things for sure? I trust in my abilities, but fate has a way of changing things. Thus, I will take any advantages I can. It is not cowardice to increase your strength by alliances, nor is it cowardice to weaken ones enemies. Such things any warrior do to achieve victory, it is to be regarded as wisdom. He who disregards strategies and planning, and relies only in his own strength, he is neither brave nor wise, he is reckless and foolish.

But you go ahead and judge as you please, I see no disadvantage in having my enemies percieve me as both cowardly and weak.

Ôtomo Sorin