I'll get back to you on that when I think of one.
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I'll get back to you on that when I think of one.
He went there to bring back some wimmen.
:wall:
That was not the plan which I proposed, I made significant alterations to my original plan which nobody seems to have taken a blind bit of notice of. I compromised.
https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/...ms_turn7-1.jpg
Now, nobody loses any territory which they originally owned, and everyone wins. It is very simple, a permanent solution, and it allows a new player to come into the game with a meaningful amount of territory. You cannot expect a new player to be given the pathetic slice of territory that is the Crimea, and think that he will enjoy it.
EDIT: Scratch that Portuguese concession on the Baleares, that way nobody loses any original territory.
I find it curious that somebody who isn't even involved in the war is starting to give snarky comments that are not helpful and only serve to divide Christendom. As I have stated so many times before, I am the one in the advantageous position. I am proposing a peace which is beneficial to all, and I am willing to provide compensation for lands lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Double A
How do vassal states work? Maybe central Italy could become a vassal of Spain (unless another player wishes to join)? I don't really see any reason for the Swiss to give up their northern Italian lands.
Hmm, intersting. I proposed a Condominium, in that we all agree to guaranteee Umbria's independence, but that it has free reign in it's own internal and external affairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
Umbria isn't viable if it only has Central Italy. Although maybe the addition of just Venetia to Umbria, leaving Switzerland with Lombardy could work...Quote:
Originally Posted by miotas
With regards to "Switzerland has No room for Expansion", I'd like to point out that that argument is baseless and stupid. Transylvania has no room to expand. The Dutch have no room to expand. So should we just eternally surrender land to Switzerland to allow it to continue expanding, just because they want some kind of proto-Lebensraum?
Look, Spain has already said he is not going to accept giving up Italy. France they have given you an excellent peace treaty, can you just accept it and let us all move on? I am willing to give back both hexes of Normandy I have if you just leave Italy to the Swiss and Spanish.
Yeah, but both those other nations have a port and are coastal. Which means that Theoretically they CAN expand. What is the Swiss going to do with 4 hexes? Build three buildings then what? He is going to construct another army obviously, what else. It will lead to another war if you cut the Swiss off like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
You are being Unreasonable.
I'm not suggesting that he give up the entirety of Italy. I have made that very clear multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
It's excellent in that it doesn't resolve any problems whatsoever. What he is proposing will be achieved within two turns anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
Lol wut? Where are they going to expand? Transylvanian Georgia? Dutch Arkhangelsk? Or is every unclaimed Hex on the Map now just waiting to become a part of some Swiss Thalassocracy? That argument is just silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
I have compromised, both regarding the Spanish and the Swiss. I have altered the map to show that I do not wish to impede Spain's holdings in Naples, and I stated that Switzerland could have Lombardy, in return for the establishment of an Umbrian State, comprising Central Italy and Ventia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
If anything is going to result in another war, it's indulging and rewarding the Swiss for being aggressive. What you are proposing is paradoxical; you claim that the Swiss should be allowed to expand, but that my idea is bad as it will create conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cultured Drizzt fan
I have compromised multiple times, such as with Naples, compensation and Lombardy, but Spain and Switzerland are refusing to budge. The ball is now in their court.Quote:
You are being Unreasonable.
No, the point of this treaty is to restore your lands the way they were there by restoring the status quo, if you want to start up an italian state do it on your own time.
Since people seem to still not understand what I am proposing, I will post it again.
https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/...ms_turn7-2.jpg
As you can see, I have made many alterations to my original proposal. I no longer think it practical or fair that the Baleares be ceded to Portugal, or that Naples should be paret of this Umbrian Kingdom. Likewise, I have come to the conclusion that Switzerland should, under this plan, be allowed access to the Med. This leaves a state which would be comprised of only Venice and Central Italy. This is 12 Hexes smaller than I originally envisagned it, reducing it to 16 Hexes, and almost 50% smaller than my original plan. That is compromise, and if anyone is being "unreasonable" or "unacceptable", it is most certainly not France.
The status quo is what caused this war in the first place. My solution solves that problem without making any one country too powerful; thus making everybody happy. Everyone involved has had concessions, and I have presented a plan which is agreeable and fair. Returning to the status quo is the coward's way out, and only sets the course for more conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Subotan just repeating the same damn thing over and over again with small alterations is not going to move me. An realy its not the status quo that got us in this mess but how you dealt with it. Or, more accurately, how you didn't deal with it.
I have never seen such ridiculousness.
We have two massive armies roaming the French captial and fortress, with all of my territory in my hands and some of France's, and Spain just slit France in two. Now France is telling me I am allowed to have my 4 starting hexes plus some of the unclaimed territory I claimed right away. He also gets all of France back and he also gets to dictate who controls Italy. What kind of drugs would make you think Spain wants to give up Italy? For what reason? Man, I can't take it anymore. Would you gentlemen kindly just stand back and let the swiss mop up this mess?
I stand by my original proposal England, you and the Netherlands can have 1/3 of France, I'll have 1/3 and Spain will have 1/3. There's really no reason to allow this clowning to continue. This might just as well be a serious diplomatic meeting, with one member taking a huge steaming dump right on all of the scrolls detailing the peace plan, smacking his own buttocks and waving his naked rear end in our faces.
Obviously this means he thinks he can take our armies head on, so let's make that happen. It's much more satisfying for there to be a clear winner. No sense dragging it out.
Ours is of comparable size or larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurion1
Confession: We didn't build it all by ourselves. :wink:
Right, now I'm annoyed. You may accuse me of being overly-aggressive, stupid in attacking Switzerland, a liar with regards to how many soldiers I have, cocky or anything else in a similar manner which it could be interepreted that I have shown. But I must certainly have not been "repeating the same damn thing over and over again". If it feels like I have, then that is because some people here do not understand basic concepts of diplomacy, such as national sovereignty, balance of power and sphere of influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
You say that I need to make a lot of concessions. Which I have done, and I'm not going to bother listing again. Now it's your turn. I have not made outrageous demands; I could easily have demanded to annex Switzerland, or take Catalonia. I have not, and I have not made proposals which shrink anyone's original territory. It does not seriously impede the ability of anyone to wage war, and it allows a new player to join the game. There is nothing fundamentally unfair or unjust about my heavily diluted proposal.
And you still have to offer an explanation as to why your proposition is somehow fairer than mine. Your plan is inferior in every single way imaginable.
Probably the most naive statement in the entire thread.Quote:
An realy its not the status quo that got us in this mess but how you dealt with it.
Whatever. You keep spouting nonsense about something you obviously have no idea about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy
This is the kind of bull:daisy: I have to deal with?Quote:
I stand by my original proposal England, you and the Netherlands can have 1/3 of France, I'll have 1/3 and Spain will have 1/3. There's really no reason to allow this clowning to continue. This might just as well be a serious diplomatic meeting, with one member taking a huge steaming dump right on all of the scrolls detailing the peace plan, smacking his own buttocks and waving his naked rear end in our faces.
Obviously this means he thinks he can take our armies headn, so let's make that happen. It's much more satisfying for there to be a clear winner. No sense dragging it out.
Your not making any bleeding concessions! You're getting all your lands back for crying out loud. The only thing you would lose with my offer is some face and as far as I can see thats not a very valuable comodity to you.
Look at the maps. I have systematically reduced my proposal numerous times in response to criticism from the parties involved. And yet I hear no offers of concession from those same parties.
Thats because this proposed treaty is about the war not italy's status in continental politics.
And the war was originally about Italy. If we don't resolve Italy's status, then the war will all have been for nothing. My proposal solves that problem without making any one country dominant, and without taking anyone's original territory away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
What!? This war has zilch to do with italy this was all about your objections to switzerlands right to expand.
You can say these talks are over. Just invade eachother.
In Italy. So, it has everything to do with Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Besides, you didn't answer my criticism of your plan. Why is your plan fairer, more permanent and more likely to keep the peace than mine?
Don't be a pessimist. I'm sure you've got more stamina than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
The fact that its the only viable one that everyone will agree to that doesnt end in half your lands taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotan
That assumes that I am in a very precarious position, both diplomatically, an/or militarily. I am neither. I am busy laying siege to Madrid with the aid of allies, and the Northern Alliance is more sympathetic to my cause than yours. To be fair though, we won't know how your army in France has faired against the English until the report comes in. I'd recommend that we delay the signing of a treaty until that report comes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
My proposal doesn't even increase France's power or wealth by one Franc. It creates the foundations for lasting peace amongst our nations, without one power becoming dominant, Switzerland gets to expand and have a coastline, and a new player who wants to join the game and not be relegated to a vassal of the Turk can. What is there not to like?
Have you looked at the proper map recently? You have it backwards; your capital is taken, your armies are so far gone you are resorting to bluffs and even your own friends are sick and tired of your incessently unreasonable counter-proposals. And while yes it doesn't increase your income but it reduces mine and seeing as I'm winning I sure as hell am not going to agree to it.
Being honest, this is the opinion of the Northern Alliance - "Just invade eachother already other than spamming the thread for over 15 pages and getting no where."
The Northern Alliance at first would have liked a solution where France was alive, just because a lot of players dropped like flies. So they were happy for any deals which both sides could agree too. Since it is obvious to everyone bar France that France is in the weakest position and would hypothetically, get worse. The opinion of the Northern Alliance is for France to take Greyblades generous offer where he basically said he would return the land he took to France.
As for Italy, France has no claims over Italy, and isn't in much of a position to dictate any terms there. As Pizza put it "Put your armies where your mouth is" and claimed by Cultured Drizzt fan, feel free to pay the costs and cessions of making his italy idea happen (not just ask for it). It also cuts Switzerland off from expansion, and being a small power like Switzerland which had to give up land and expansion, I know exactly how the Swiss feel, and that it victimisation by bullies at that suggestion. If I was the Swiss, I would be fighting as well.
I think Greyblades made a very generous offer of basically pre-war borders, if France pushes the issue and wants to demand for more, he won't recieve any international aid.
Temporarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Wrong. If you're in denial, that's cool, as it will just make it easier for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
What are they sick and tired of? Is it the process of negotiating, where I have compromised oh so many times? If so, they should quit the game now, because that's how diplomacy works. It's long, it's gruelling, and it's hard. This isn't a Total War Game where you just say "I'll have this province and this one in return for some map information, K?" or where it is plausible or advisable to conquer everyone on the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
But I don't think that is what they're sick and tired of. They're sick and tired of the lack of progress. And why is there no progress? Is it me, obstructing, and refusing compromise at every turn? No. I have, on my own accord, slimmed down my proposal three times. And yet I haven't heard even a whisper of any similar moves from my opponents. Well, I've compromised enough. I've made a fair offer, a feasible offer, which includes elements that I personally disagree with, namely, Switzerland owning Milan. That is the nature of compromise, by swallowing bitter pills in order to get a treatment. My plan is a good treatment of Italy, and it will not be watered down any further.
Not true, as shown by both the paragraph and the various maps above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
And yet your plan, returning to pre-war borders, does exactly the same thing. That's a bit odd. (Especially considering that you're not losing any territory you started the game with, and that nobody is)Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
Not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
The very antithesis of diplomacy. No counter offers, no compromises, no attempts to meet half way. Tsk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
I want a solution to this war as well. Endless fighting doesn't help anyone. However, I have tried everything in my power to present a peace that is favourable to all involved, fair, practical, permanent, doesn't increase one nation's power too much and brings that new player. I have then made alterations and edits to that plan, at the behest of Spain and Switzerland. And yet they refuse to even come up with an alternate proposal that meets me and them halfway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I'm not in the weakest position. If Spain and Switzerland want to test that, fine, but it's their loss.Quote:
The Northern Alliance at first would have liked a solution where France was alive, just because a lot of players dropped like flies. So they were happy for any deals which both sides could agree too. Since it is obvious to everyone bar France that France is in the weakest position and would hypothetically, get worse.
I will have taken the majority of that territory back by next turn. And even if I haven't, I will have equalled it by carving a corridor from the Pyrenees to Madrid. A simple land swap would be no problem.Quote:
The opinion of the Northern Alliance is for France to take Greyblades generous offer where he basically said he would return the land he took to France.
Done. I currently have an Army camped in Southern Switzerland.Quote:
As for Italy, France has no claims over Italy, and isn't in much of a position to dictate any terms there. As Pizza put it "Put your armies where your mouth is"
Done. I mentioned that before as well.Quote:
feel free to pay the costs and cessions of making his italy idea happen (not just ask for it).
My latest proposal solves CDF's criticism regarding that, even though I personally disagree with it. And I've already explained why their Divine Right of Expansion is bogus.Quote:
It also cuts Switzerland off from expansion, and being a small power like Switzerland which had to give up land and expansion, I know exactly how the Swiss feel, and that it victimisation by bullies at that suggestion. If I was the Swiss, I would be fighting as well.
The bizarre thing is, I'm being seen as the bad guy. As if my plan will make me into the mightiest power in Europe. It doesn't . I gain no territory from this. Spain and Switzerland are the ones asking for more.Quote:
I think Greyblades made a very generous offer of basically pre-war borders, if France pushes the issue and wants to demand for more, he won't recieve any international aid.
Tell me subotan, have you ever heard of the phrase looking the gift horse in the mouth?
Naturally. But I don't see why I should be forced to have one mangy horse, when all four of us can have nice horses.
Because you're demanding two Stallions when you only need a mule. Mate your being given back everything we've taken for free why are you so adamant about something that wont even affect you in the slightest?
That's not an apt analogy, and you admit it in the sentence after. I'm giving everyone a fine hunter, and the mechanism to make sure that nobody can take anyone elses. That's why it affects me, as having Spain on my Italian Border is threatening. Likewise, you must notice that as well; surely you're smart enough to realise that there you are in at least a little bit of danger from bordering me. By creating a buffer Kingdom in-between all three of us, I'm keeping all of our respective Italian possessions safe, including yours.
And I know; I still border Switzerland I hear you cry. I won't be able to help Switzerland when the sly Frogs inevitably attack them you say. But me having a long border along the Pyrenees is enough of a deterrent to make me think twice about such a deed, and regardless, I have no designs upon Switzerland's land. I am not a threat, since the very thing which I attacked you over will be resolved by this treaty, as I recognise your right to rule in Italy.
It is a win-win-win-win-win treaty. France wins, Spain wins, Switzerland wins, Europe as a whole wins, due to a balance in Italy, and this new player wins (Unless we set up some sort of vassal condominium, whereby all three of us take 1/3rd of the income from each Hex or something).
It doesnt matter that I cant make a good analogy. Look mate every one else says they dont want it or just dont care, I dont want it as italy is allready mine, switzerland doesnt want it as it would be cut off from the help and England, portugal and saxony dont care as it doent affect them. The only one benefiting is you and to be quite frank thats not realy much incentive, just take your lands and stop wasting forum space on something that isnt going to happen.