U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

It's duck and cover, all over again.

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

All I hear from you McCain supporters is worry and fear. Where are all your big ideas? Can you try to win this country back, or even govern effectively, without invoking fear?

Honestly, it's disingenuous, it's disgusting, and I'm tired of it. That's why I would rather switch sides and vote for Obama, a liberal, than continue to support what Republicans have become, which is nothing even remotely resembling conservatism.

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Give me a break. ~:rolleyes:

So you've switched your vote to a party that has for years used blatant scare tactics on the elderly by claiming the Republicans would take away their social security. You're now supporting a party that for eight years has done nothing but try to make the American people afraid of GWB, even propagating the ridiculous claim that he wants to reinstate the draft. You're pulling the lever for a party that scares black people with false Republican threats on their welfare, and tells Hispanic Americans the Republicans want to deport their illegal relatives - despite McCain authoring a bill that would have made a path to citizenship and the President supporting it.

Of course none of that happened under 8 years of Bush and 6 years of a Republican majority. However, your righteous indignation is fierce. Well done on that, bold text and all.

If you don't think the Republicans have what it takes this year, that’s fine, but spare us the hypocritical bitching over FEAR tactics. Both parties use them to sway the unwashed....

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

It's duck and cover, all over again.

:laugh4:

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Desks do nicely against Nukes.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Give me a break. ~:rolleyes:

So you've switched your vote to a party that has for years used blatant scare tactics on the elderly by claiming the Republicans would take away their social security.

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Bush tried to do exactly that. And the public whacked him on the rearside. So how exactly was that just some empty scare tactic?

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You're now supporting a party that for eight years has done nothing but try to make the American people afraid of GWB, even propagating the ridiculous claim that he wants to reinstate the draft. You're pulling the lever for a party that scares black people with false Republican threats on their welfare, and tells Hispanic Americans the Republicans want to deport their illegal relatives - despite McCain authoring a bill that would have made a path to citizenship and the President supporting it.

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The American people need no help being disgusted with Bush. Even his own party.

Do you have ANYTHING of substance to argue with... or just things which were true, and helped make the Republicans look bad?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Give me a break. ~:rolleyes:

So you've switched your vote to a party that has for years used blatant scare tactics on the elderly by claiming the Republicans would take away their social security. You're now supporting a party that for eight years has done nothing but try to make the American people afraid of GWB, even propagating the ridiculous claim that he wants to reinstate the draft. You're pulling the lever for a party that scares black people with false Republican threats on their welfare, and tells Hispanic Americans the Republicans want to deport their illegal relatives - despite McCain authoring a bill that would have made a path to citizenship and the President supporting it.

Of course none of that happened under 8 years of Bush and 6 years of a Republican majority. However, your righteous indignation is fierce. Well done on that, bold text and all.

If you don't think the Republicans have what it takes this year, that’s fine, but spare us the hypocritical bitching over FEAR tactics. Both parties use them to sway the unwashed....

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As usual, a respectful and balanced post, PJ.

1. A Republican president, Bush, just tried to privatize social security.

2. I don't defend the Democrats for things they have done which are wrong. I never once spread the notion that Bush wants to reinstate the draft. And Democrats accusing Bush of trying to bring back the draft, compared to Bush and co accusing the Democrats of being anti-American terrorist loving Marxists who hate the troops...

Sorry, but that argument you're using doesn't sway me one bit.

3. Scares black people... false threats on welfare... Republicans deporting illegal immigrants...

Those are some very vague accusations, none of which I even have to bother defending against. First of all, I'm voting Obama, this time, because McCain's campaign is the most childish I've ever seen, and his ideas are in line with the failed policies of GWB.

Specific incidents of hyper-partisanship by Democrats don't hold any water with me, because the Republicans are guilty of it too, arguably to a greater degree.

I'll spare you further bitching, but the bottom line is, nothing you just said resembles an argument for McCain.

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As usual, a respectful and balanced post, PJ.

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Only taking your lead bud. ~;)

I am surprised that both you and Koga equate the Bush's privatization plan with taking away senior's social security, as the rather non-specific proposal was very specific in that it would not stop social security payments for anyone or anyone vaguely near retirement. Privatization itself is not the removal of retirement benefits at all. This is pretty basic stuff.

In any event, claiming disgust over "republican fear tactics" is just a little bit disengenuous.

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I'll spare you further bitching, but the bottom line is, nothing you just said resembles an argument for McCain.

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Good. Its best to stick to solid points rather than hypocritical whinging.

As for your inability to find an argument for McCain... have you been keeping up with this thread? There have been plenty made both on broad issues such as experience and judgement and on specific ones such as taxes and the war.

If you somehow cannot seem to locate one solitary argument for McCain in all these 137 pages, I'd suggest www.johnmccain.com. :2thumbsup:

You may not agree with our arguments, but please don't insult us by claiming we don't have any, and can only resort to FEAR. That is just inaccurate nonsense and you will be called on it. Nothing personal. ~:)

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

In any event, claiming disgust over "republican fear tactics" is just a little bit disengenuous.

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It's not at all disingenuous. You didn't deny any of my claims against Republicans in this election smearing Obama or using fear-based tactics, or dividing America into "real" and "fake". You only made vague accusations against Democrats in general of being the same way.

That's all well and good, but since you didn't disprove or deny the childishness of the Republican campaign, you can't claim I'm being disingenuous in my disgust of it.

You don't know me, or my motivations. I am disgusted, and it's entirely honest disgust. I'm also disgusted by untruthfulness, illegal activity, and hyper-partisanship by the Democrats, in all instances.

I also disapprove of bad arguments given by my own fellow Obama supporters, and have REPEATEDLY called for a more respectful, issue-based debate, entirely focused on the issues.

You may have the right to call me disingenuous, but you have no rational basis for doing so, and therefore I may safely ignore it.

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Good. Its best to stick to solid points rather than hypocritical whinging.

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This right here is an example of disrespect, and I'll ask you to stick to the issues and the discussion rather than insult me personally.

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As for your inability to find an argument for McCain... have you been keeping up with this thread? There have been plenty made both on personal issues such as experience and judgement and on specific ones such as taxes and the war.

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I've found his judgment has been quite flawed on taxes and the war, and he has plenty of personal issues.

I haven't been following the thread religiously, but since you fail to point out again why McCain is better, I have to wonder if you have.

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If you cannot seem to locate one solitary argument for McCain in all these 137 pages, I'd suggest www.johnmccain.com. :2thumbsup:

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I am simply asking for someone here to articulate a case for McCain, rather than simply post links about fringe nutjobs on both sides which make Obama or McCain look bad. All I've seen is a discussion about taxes, honestly. Plus some people who are really anti-abortion.

Do you have anything further to add?

I know where McCain stands on the issues, that's why I am voting against him. Why are you voting for him, and can you answer in a way that doesn't mention Obama or the Democrats? We've covered taxes and abortion.

And if you do me the courtesy of answering, I'd appreciate a little more politeness and respect for your fellow orgahs.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I am simply asking for someone here to articulate a case for McCain, rather than simply post links about fringe nutjobs on both sides which make Obama or McCain look bad. All I've seen is a discussion about taxes, honestly. Plus some people who are really anti-abortion.

Do you have anything further to add?

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Pizza, do you mean to imply that "SOCIALISM!!!!!" does not constitute a compelling argument to you? :)

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Pizza, do you mean to imply that "SOCIALISM!!!!!" does not constitute a compelling argument to you? :)

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Actually, I believe it constitutes a VERY compelling argument. When one simply tosses labels at their opponents, and offers no ideas or solutions, and does not seem to understand that facets of the federal government are based on socialist ideas, not capitalist ones, and that the Republicans support most of those same socialist policies and toss in some of their own, (examples given just by myself including the Alaskan oil revenues, and the bailout... how about McCain's tax credit for healthcare, paid for by taxes?) the bottom line is, it's a self-destructive tactic to use, and a poor and misinformed argument at best.

Socialist is a dirty word, much like the word liberal, according to Rush Limbaugh. However, because people toss the word around without understanding its meaning and the context of this election, when they use the word, it's just a more compelling argument for the other side.

When someone calls an Arab person an (ethnic slur I will not repeat here), it makes me tend to defend them, whether I know them or not, and dislike the person throwing that slur around.

How that's different from my own argument, is that I don't blame everything on Bush and the Republicans, I take issue specifically with how the 2008 Republican campaign is running it's own disingenuous and hypocritical election, to borrow words from PJ. I don't call McCain a terrorist, but I point out how fallacious and irrational fear-based arguments are, and that unfortunately for the integrity and credibility of the McCain campaign, fear is a weapon used both by him, and also by the enemies of America, specifically terrorists.

Because the ads are 100% negative, or they have been recently, since the debates were half about attacking Obama and half vague talking points about oil and defense, since those associated with the campaign (not just nutjobs, but the VP pick and the presidential pick) are smearing Obama so nakedly and without shame, because the message they spread is about risk and fear, rather than positive reasons to vote McCain... I have to point out that the message is fear, not hope. And it plays to a very base part of the human psyche, the part that doesn't need a rational argument to vote for someone.

The fact that both republican and democrat ideologues have done this doesn't mean everyone should therefore get a free pass, that it's acceptable behavior, that it is a legitimate tactic, or that both sides do it equally, or that we shouldnt point out and condemn such behavior when we see it here in the 2008 election.

Had McCain an argument, at all, against Obama besides telling people to Fear Him, fear the possibility of higher taxes, fear a democrat in the white house, fear democrats running the congress, fear democrats running the war... if he had reason instead of fear, I couldn't point out that emperor McCain has no clothes.

He once was a moderate, now he's an ideologue bereft of ideas, who spends the majority of his time attacking the very people he claims to be bipartisan enough to work with, while his opponent doesn't mention the Keating Five scandal, or McCain's personal life, or Palin's personal life, he doesn't attack McCain personally, but he does attack his ideas. At worst, he claims that McCain might have made boneheaded decisions or he might use a term like erratic. Ouch.

I didn't hear a swift-boat argument. I didn't hear a "too old" argument coming from Obama or Biden. I didn't hear an attack on McCain's personal life. I didn't hear Barack talk about McCain's past scandals or even Palin's current ones. I didn't hear an argument saying that Republicans are destroying America, only that Republican policies have led us in the wrong direction. I didn't hear Obama say that Republicans werent Americans, or werent "real" Americans. I didn't hear an argument from fear. I didn't hear an argument from distrust. I didn't hear an argument ad hominem. All I heard were things Obama would do if he were president.

Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but one side in this election has more consistently talked about the issues, offered solutions, offered respect for the opposing side, and did not resort to trying to discredit their opponent based on ethnicity, or religion, or political differences, and mostly discussed reasons why they would be a better candidate. All of these charges have yet to be refuted, in spite of some very vehement opposition.

I won't take sniping as a rebuttal, but I will take it as evidence that the opposition has lost touch with reason and refuses to debate the issues.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Good luck with the Bradley Effect, and I'm done. :slomo:

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That's a horrible thing to say.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

This right here is an example of disrespect, and I'll ask you to stick to the issues and the discussion rather than insult me personally.

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Please, you set the tone with this initial shot at McCain supporters.

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All I hear from you McCain supporters is worry and fear. Where are all your big ideas? Can you try to win this country back, or even govern effectively, without invoking fear?

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Don't call me a fear monger and then cry about respect.

Your recent posts in this thread seemed an honest call for respectful discussion and and I responded to you with honesty and candor about my frustrations over the McCain campaign. If you choose to climb down off your high horse and start throwing mud, don't be surprised when you get a little dirty.

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I am simply asking for someone here to articulate a case for McCain, rather than simply post links about fringe nutjobs on both sides which make Obama or McCain look bad. All I've seen is a discussion about taxes, honestly. Plus some people who are really anti-abortion.

Do you have anything further to add?

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Get over yourself. Everyone knows the case for McCain and the case for Obama. (If for some reason you've been living under a rock, I'll kindly direct you to www.barackobama.com in addition to JohnnyMac's site.) They're the same cases for the Republican and Democratic candidates that have been around since Nixon first sought to break up the solid South. The platforms haven't changed that much. Big government versus limited, social liberalism versus conservatism... what do you need articulated exactly that you cannot readily find and interpret yourself?

You look down your nose at us and ask where our "big ideas" are, but I doubt you can name one substantial plank in the democrat's platform that wasn't there in 2004.. or 2000. Our big ideas are actually small ideas.. limited government, limited taxes, and limited spending. Did GWB live up to these goals? Absolutely not. Does that mean McCain won't either? Well anyone who tells you McCain is a Bush flunky hasn't been following politics for very long, or is supporting Obama. And does that mean we conservatives should throw our hands in the air and vote for the candidate most directly opposing our views? Only an idiot would do that.


You want to know the reason you get the latest Drudge headlines in this thread instead of some scholarly debate on "the issues"? It's because we've all been over the fundamentals again and again and picked our sides. I'd be glad to "debate" you on the issues. It won't be hard, as the issues have been debated ad nauseam. Each one has been picked apart, focus group tested, and dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. In short, its boring.

It is not my prerogative to make a case for McCain to a decided Obama supporter at this stage of the game. It is, however, my (self appointed ~;)) obligation to point out decidedly hypocritical attacks directed towards groups that I'm affiliated with.

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I know where McCain stands on the issues, that's why I am voting against him. Why are you voting for him?

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Because I know where he stands on the issues... :rolleyes:

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And if you do me the courtesy of answering, I'd appreciate a little more politeness and respect for your fellow orgahs.

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You get what you give.. I personally liked the “above the fray” ATPG, but I’m perfectly willing to play dirty, always have been. ~:)

Anyone catch the Colbert Report last night?

they actually had the US Socialist party presidential candidate on......I bet the man has never gotten so much press in his life! :laugh4:

Colbert asks him if he´s gonna vote for the "socialism" Obama :wiseguy:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...---brian-moore

There's the video.

Wow this election gets even funnier .
After having someone widely shown to be not only a complete liar with no grasp of reality and a tax dodging cowboy builder for good measure , McCain has decided to add Joe not really the plumber to his campaign team driving round to rallies on his truth bus speaking his bullexcrement to voters .
Well if McCains judgement has been called into question over his bouncing off walls to try and find a right drection and picking a complete idiot as a runningmate then this really is the cherry on the cake .
Obama might be a capitalist communist african asian arabian muslim radical christian terrorist who is stupid yet intellectual and an outsider with no experience who is part of the establishment ...at least he isn't a complete idiot like McCain

If there's one thing that I think we can all agree on, it's that this election has done a lot to re-ignite American interest in voting. I read a story a week or so ago that had Maryland officials anticipating an 85% turnout rate in their state. Today the Washington Post has an article saying that Virginia expects up to 90% turnout. Now, I'm not sure whether this is percent of the total registered or total eligible, but either way it's a significant improvement. This country can only benefit from increased citizen interest in the affairs of government, regardless of their individual views.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V71Do4Fj8XU

Buy Now.

As one crazy commentor stated:

"You'd better buy a gun before Obama wins..

You'd better buy two guns if he loses."

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Originally Posted by CountArach

That's a horrible thing to say.

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Horrible? How? The Bradley effect is a very real thing. In fact PJ is wishing you luck. You should thank him

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

By the way...



"wealth redistribution" and socialist lifestyles are in the Bible.

Acts II:40-46.

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Gosh. Well since I'm an atheist and social darwinist it gives me even less of a reason to vote for Obama, no?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Horrible? How? The Bradley effect is a very real thing. In fact PJ is wishing you luck. You should thank him

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Bradley Effect is basically an urban legend Strike. Yes, Bradley did lose the election after polls showed he was a couple of points ahead. You could make the same case about Gore and Kerry, at least, depending on what polls you were looking at. The truth is there was no formal study or scientific examination of race effect in actualized voter turnout and people merely attribute Bradley's loss to white people not being able to actually cast the vote for a black man at the last minute. And, it was decades ago.

I think the big emphasis on Bradley Effect has been three things. One, it's a great controversial conflict topic for the media. Two, it's psych warfare to make the Dems think they can't really win even if they're polling ahead. Three, if there are funny business "flips" of votes in key states Hannity and such will be IMMEDIATELY on the air going "OH WELL, WE TOLD YA THE BRADLEY EFFECT!"

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Gosh. Well since I'm an atheist and social darwinist it gives me even less of a reason to vote for Obama, no?

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He never had a shot at your vote, so *shrug*.

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Get over yourself. Everyone knows the case for McCain and the case for Obama. (If for some reason you've been living under a rock, I'll kindly direct you to www.barackobama.com in addition to JohnnyMac's site.) They're the same cases for the Republican and Democratic candidates that have been around since Nixon first sought to break up the solid South. The platforms haven't changed that much. Big government versus limited, social liberalism versus conservatism... what do you need articulated exactly that you cannot readily find and interpret yourself?

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So you basically confirmed Pizza's point, the McCain campaign is offering nothing other than "we're Republicans." The clear differences between the campaigns is the same clear difference between any Democrat and any Republican, according to what you say. So there is no compelling reason to vote McCain, whatsoever, unless you were a Republican and stand for all things Republican and wink wink McCain's Republican too?

If that's the basis for voting, man... what a huge amount of money is utterly wasted on campaigns. So much simpler to just say Obama-D, McCain-R. Choose.

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Bradley Effect is basically an urban legend Strike. Yes, Bradley did lose the election after polls showed he was a couple of points ahead. You could make the same case about Gore and Kerry, at least, depending on what polls you were looking at. The truth is there was no formal study or scientific examination of race effect in actualized voter turnout and people merely attribute Bradley's loss to white people not being able to actually cast the vote for a black man at the last minute. And, it was decades ago.

I think the big emphasis on Bradley Effect has been three things. One, it's a great controversial conflict topic for the media. Two, it's psych warfare to make the Dems think they can't really win even if they're polling ahead. Three, if there are funny business "flips" of votes in key states Hannity and such will be IMMEDIATELY on the air going "OH WELL, WE TOLD YA THE BRADLEY EFFECT!"

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If I know white America like I think I know white America it will have some effect. Not enough mind you but enough to make the messiah a bit uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

If I know white America like I think I know white America it will have some effect. Not enough mind you but enough to make the messiah a bit uncomfortable.

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I don't deny there are people who can't or wont' vote for him because of race. But I doubt there are huge numbers of people who agree with him on most every issue, and SAY they will vote for him, but just can't do it because he's black.

The wiki on the bradley effect talks of a reverse bradley effect having more of an effect these days...

So obama will win by even more than suggested!!

You can't really define jesus to a political label and that kind of thing, but i honestly think things like universal healthcare and a great education system would be far more up his street than small goverment and a strong military...

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Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

He never had a shot at your vote, so *shrug*.

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Very true. Then again if Moses was running against Jesus the son of god still wouldn't get a look from me...

Give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
It’s good enough for me
It was good for the Hebrew children
It was good for the Hebrew children
It was good for the Hebrew children
And it’s good enough for me

It will bring you out of bondage
It will bring you out of bondage
It will bring you out of bondage
And it’s good enough for me

It will do when the world’s on fire
It will do when the world’s on fire
It will do when the world’s on fire
And it’s good enough for me

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Originally Posted by Spino

Give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
Give me that old time religion
It’s good enough for me
It was good for the Hebrew children
It was good for the Hebrew children
It was good for the Hebrew children
And it’s good enough for me

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Stop!! Stop!!! Back ye demon! Sing not that song, or maggots shall fill thy mouth!

ooppppssss

I am really getting sick of Jesus and Christianity being brought up in a religious context.

Which is why i brought it up in a political context...

Jesus was never a political figure and never aspired to be.

Well thats debatable, but whether you like it or not, and whether or not he exists, jesus is very involved in modern day politics..

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

I am really getting sick of Jesus and Christianity being brought up in a religious context.

Which is why i brought it up in a political context...

Jesus was never a political figure and never aspired to be.

Well thats debatable, but whether you like it or not, and whether or not he exists, jesus is very involved in modern day politics..

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I misread your post and then mistyped my own. But for the record many of the leading social conservatives have perverted the true message of Christ. Mega churches and political sermons do nothing for the flock nor strengthening there relationship with Christ. They just give those demagogues a small sense of smugness. Churches like there people should be modest.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Jesus was never a political figure and never aspired to be.

Well thats debatable, but whether you like it or not, and whether or not he exists, jesus is very involved in modern day politics..

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That's how I feel too. You don't get to turn it on and off like a faucet. If the party you're voting for is running around screaming about how Christ-ly it is (as opposed to the Muslim Barack Obama... heh), you don't get to pull a "that's religion! That's separate!" argument when actual Christian teachings do not seem at all congruous with Republican policies of protect and favor the rich and already successful. I realize that many Republican voters are not themselves religious people, but, I'm not the one who conflated being American, conservative, Republican and Christian. The GOP made that unholy mixed marriage of interests and panders to it as if all crowds are one and the same.

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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Honestly, it's disingenuous, it's disgusting, and I'm tired of it. That's why I would rather switch sides and vote for Obama, a liberal, than continue to support what Republicans have become, which is nothing even remotely resembling conservatism.

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What conservative values do you support anyway? You've mocked religion as a superstition and are pro-choice. Clearly you're not a social conservative, yet you also speak favorably of tax increases and approvingly of more government spending on healthcare- basically, you support about every plank in the Obama platform. To me, it seems a little "disingenuous" to keep donning the conservative for Obama mantle when we've never heard a conservative viewpoint out of you.

You can support whoever you want, but I wish you'd drop the pretense- it just sounds like you're trying to give your endorsement more weight by claiming to be a conservative. :shrug:

On a similar note, I, as a hard left liberal, am so disgusted by the Obama campaign that I have no choice but to cross over and vote for McCain. :clown:

this doesnt look good for the jews:
palestinians see a friend in obama, LA Times

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

The wiki on the bradley effect talks of a reverse bradley effect having more of an effect these days...

So obama will win by even more than suggested!!

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Finally someone agrees with me!

We just have to hope the trend keeps up, or actually that Bradley Effect votes and reverse-Bradley effect votes cancel each other out, because that way true equality lies!

Pokemon Politics
https://i188.photobucket.com/albums/...n-politics.gif

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

What conservative values do you support anyway? You've mocked religion as a superstition and are pro-choice.

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You are either too young or too ideological to see the point ATPG was making. When did overt, political Christianity become "conservative"? When did government control of reproductive options (especially restricting them) become "conservative?" Conservatives of the pre-Reagan mold, real conservatives, in other words, spin in their graves at the implication that big government intervention into social controls based on Christian moral values is conservativism. When you use the "social conservative" title as it would be understood today, you are talking about the husbanded union of the loonie Christian far-right social values voters, and pro-big business pro-corporate economic agendas which constitute the present-day Republican Party. And I'm sorry, but an agenda just by virtue of being endorsed and practiced by the Republican Party at any given moment does not make it conservative.

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Clearly you're not a social conservative, yet you also speak favorably of tax increases and approvingly of more government spending on healthcare- basically, you support about every plank in the Obama platform. To me, it seems a little "disingenuous" to keep donning the conservative for Obama mantle when we've never heard a conservative viewpoint out of you.

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Fiscal conservatives would want to do something about the debt. Not just give rhetoric about cutting spending. Know what happens to my CC debt if I cut back on my spending? Nothing, it's still there.

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You can support whoever you want, but I wish you'd drop the pretense- it just sounds like you're trying to give your endorsement more weight by claiming to be a conservative. :shrug:

On a similar note, I, as a hard left liberal, am so disgusted by the Obama campaign that I have no choice but to cross over and vote for McCain. :clown:

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Oh please, like there aren't a lot of people around her poseuring as "Independents" who haven't been in the bin for McCain since day one, posting every single negative article that puts Obama in a bad light? ATPG is totally honest about his views, he cares only about end results, not "appearing" to walk the correct partisan line from A to B in order to qualify as x political ideology. And to argue that you are "conservative" for supporting Bush and now supporting McBush, is laughable. Supporting the current Republican Party doesn't make you conservative, it makes you a partisan Republican and that's all.

ignore

Im a real conservative...posers!

I read a newspaper article that speculated that if Stevens gets jailtime (wich doesn't seem that likely to me), Palin might appoint herself to replace him as senator and go to Washington.
I know that governors select replacements for senators, but can they actually chose themselves?

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Originally Posted by Fenring

I read a newspaper article that speculated that if Stevens gets jailtime (wich doesn't seem that likely to me), Palin might appoint herself to replace him as senator and go to Washington.
I know that governors select replacements for senators, but can they actually chose themselves?

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I dont think thats possible....and if it is that is not good.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Im a real conservative...posers!

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I wanna see a a gangsta rap style east-side/west-side feud inside the republican party to see who the real conservatives are :laugh4:

it will be just the same....guns and over-inflated egos....just less bling. ~:pimp:

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/.../RNC-texas.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fenring

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/.../RNC-texas.jpg

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We are our own people
https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/...0409ci4.th.jpghttps://img217.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif

hey, as a new yorker, i object the "loud, obnoxious new yorkers" part.....
lol

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

We are our own people

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https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/..._my_people.png

~:eek:

OHHH MY EYES!!!

:laugh4:

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this doesnt look good for the jews:

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Yeah according to Joe not the plumber a vote for Obama is a vote for death to Israel .
Its kinda wierd though as the polls on Jewish-american vote seems to be increasingly very pro-Obama

AUGH!
please put that pic in spoilers!!!!!
my eyes.... burned..... ouch.....
lol

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yeah according to Joe not the plumber a vote for Obama is a vote for death to Israel .
Its kinda wierd though as the polls on Jewish-american vote seems to be increasingly very pro-Obama

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heres the thing.
orthodox jews tend to vote conservative. reform jews vote liberal.

and no, we dont trust obama when it coems to israel b/c he will talk w/o preconditions to israels enemies, and that may not to be to our (israels) advantage....

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

heres the thing.
orthodox jews tend to vote conservative. reform jews vote liberal.

and no, we dont trust obama when it coems to israel b/c he will talk w/o preconditions to israels enemies, and that may not to be to our (israels) advantage....

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You live in America. You are an American. Our government should not be a tool for Israel to use to further there interests.

no, were concerned that obama will lessen our ties to get better ones with the arabs.
considering israel is very reliant on the US.....

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

no, were concerned that obama will lessen our ties to get better ones with the arabs.
considering israel is very reliant on the US.....

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If its in Americas best interest to loosen ties with Israel I say do it.

ok, you can say that, but as someone who had dual citizenship, i wouldnt want that.

Right, Israel has been a black spot in our foreign policy to date in my opinion. The reality, though is that it exists and within it are large number of people who are the target of constant apocalyptic threats. Because of this fact it is imperative that we stand with Israel as a firm but reasonable partner.

We must urge them to reform the overly aggressive and apartheid-eque aspects of their domestic agenda while supporting them when they are faced with threats of extermination. I do not believe that Israel should have been created in the first place, but the reality is that it is here now and there are men women and children who just want to live in peace.

Obama's positions on Israel do not scare me in the least and neither do McCains.

both points are spoken be people who dont view israel as a homeland, and i respect thier opinions, but obamas positions scare me, and im firm on that.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Right, Israel has been a black spot in our foreign policy to date in my opinion. The reality, though is that it exists and within it are large number of people who are the target of constant apocalyptic threats. Because of this fact it is imperative that we stand with Israel as a firm but reasonable partner.

We must urge them to reform the overly aggressive and apartheid-eque aspects of their domestic agenda while supporting them when they are faced with threats of extermination. I do not believe that Israel should have been created in the first place, but the reality is that it is here now and there are men women and children who just want to live in peace.

Obama's positions on Israel do not scare me in the least and neither do McCains.

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Agreed with every point. Israel needs to back down from some of its hardliner policies, and it will never do that as long as it has absolute blanket unconditional support from the U.S., and the U.S. completely refuses negotiation with anyone Israel names a threat to its existence.

Besides, Hooah, no one could argue that Obama's statements about Israel have been anything less than vehemently supportive of Israel as one of the U.S.'s staunchest allies, which must be supported. All they could argue is that there is some minor anxiety from Zionists that Obama might actually play diplomatic ball with other hostile nations in the region, when they would prefer a more Bush-like approach (which did not stop N. Korea from developing nukes, I might add.)

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both points are spoken be people who dont view israel as a homeland, and i respect thier opinions, but obamas positions scare me, and im firm on that.

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Israel is not my homeland. You might be happy to see the U.S. ruined as long as Israel was protected in the process. I would not.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Horrible? How? The Bradley effect is a very real thing. In fact PJ is wishing you luck. You should thank him

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PJ was being snide and vindictive, about par for his usual :daisy: performance. Any well wishes ring very hollowly.

It is true that what people say about their vote and what vote they lodge in the privacy of a booth do not always coincide -- and this is one reason the Dems are not letting up in their efforts -- but PJ used it as a parthian shot, not an argument.

considering the US and israel have been allies from the start, and the US seems fine for the most part, i dont b/c the US is allies w/ israel will destroy it.

now, look at who obama surrounds himself with. 20 years with a very anti-israel pastor, palestinian friends, ect.
that concerns me.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

considering the US and israel have been allies from the start, and the US seems fine for the most part, i dont b/c the US is allies w/ israel will destroy it.

now, look at who obama surrounds himself with. 20 years with a very anti-israel pastor, palestinian friends, ect.
that concerns me.

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Obama will return Israeli-US relations to the tone adopted during the latter 2/3rds of the Clinton administration. The USA will attempt a more "balanced" diplomacy with both the Israelis and the Palestinians while continuing to push for -- but never achieving -- removal of Syrian influence from Lebanon and Iranian influence from some of the Palestinian hardliner groups. More or less a modified status quo.

Hardline elements in the Democrat wing would prefer a more aggressive shift in position -- drastically curtailing aid to Israel and pressuring for them to return to the original UN borders as part of a two-state solution -- but Obama will not support such an effort.

His personal views on Israel/Palestine (unknown to me, but most of his influence sources in his life are fairly anti-Israel) are secondary to these political likelihoods.

The American Jewish community is heavily divided on the Palestinian situation. hooahguy is correct that Orthodox and Reform tend to go right and left respectively, however there are far more Reform Jews in the US than Orthodox and Reform Jews tend to favor greater compromises with the Palestinians. Most of my fellow 'Reformites' support a complete Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and would support US policies that would pressure Israel in that direction. However, I do not think this goes so far as encouraging a break in Israeli-US relations. Most simply want the US to exercise its influence to encourage Israel to change its policies.

we dont know if obama will go against his party, considering he votes with them every single time.
we really have no idea what he will do with israel, b/c he says one thing but can be influenced by people who say "death to israel." if it wasnt for that i would have no problem w/ obama for israel, besides the fact that he will talk to israels enemies, which isnt always a bad thing.

EDIT: tincow, you're jewish as well? i guess that doesnt make the backrooms resident jew.... :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Most of my fellow 'Reformites' support a complete Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and would support US policies that would pressure Israel in that direction.

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Are you Jewish, Tin?

EDIT: Beaten to the punch

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Are you Jewish, Tin?

EDIT: Beaten to the punch

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Yep. Reform. Had my Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Yep. Reform. Had my Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem.

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cool!

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Yep. Reform. Had my Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem.

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We are going to need to do another breakdown by poll for the boards! Now I'm interested.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Yep. Reform. Had my Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem.

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Yeah, but did you get through your right-to-left read-out-loud exercise without malfing it?

:wiseguy:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Yeah, but did you get through your right-to-left read-out-loud exercise without malfing it?

:wiseguy:

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Yeah, but only because I studied for the dang thing for EIGHT MONTHS beforehand. As cool as a Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem sounds, it had a lot of detriments as well. Instead of the usual superficial prayer, I was just helping to give the morning sermon at our affiliate temple. That means I had to read directly from the Torah. That may not mean much to you gentiles, but the Torah has no vowels in it. This essentially meant I had to memorize the entire thing. On top of it, I had to sing the entire thing. Keep in mind that most Hebrew Schools in the US teach kids to read and speak Hebrew, but only in a ritual form, not as a practical language. Thus even though I was able to read the words and speak them properly, I had no idea at all what I was saying.

Top it off with the fact that there were some introductory prayers that I was told I wouldn't have to do (and thus did not memorize) which the Rabbi informed me I would in fact be saying about 5 minutes before I started. Did I mention that I was also wearing Tefillin for the first time in my life? All in all, the most terrifying moment of my as-then-short existence. Also, since it was in Jerusalem, none of my friends could attend, so that meant no presents.

Coincidentally, that was the last time I ever went to temple. This is one of the bizarre things about Judaism. I am very Jewish. I identify myself as Jewish, I call myself Jewish, and all the Jews I know consider me Jewish. I am also an atheist. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's a bizarre culture. I had hot pastrami for lunch. :2thumbsup:

I saw a "Voice for the Uninsured" ad on TV today- sponsored by the AMA. I was curious what their angle was, so I went to their website, http://www.voicefortheuninsured.org/. I was actually a little surprised that their plan reads a lot like McCains.

The AMA favors reducing or eliminated the "tax break" people get on employer based insurance and support using the money to fund a tax credit that people could only use to buy private insurance.

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Yeah, but only because I studied for the dang thing for EIGHT MONTHS beforehand. As cool as a Bar Mitzvah in Jerusalem sounds, it had a lot of detriments as well. Instead of the usual superficial prayer, I was just helping to give the morning sermon at our affiliate temple. That means I had to read directly from the Torah. That may not mean much to you gentiles, but the Torah has no vowels in it. This essentially meant I had to memorize the entire thing. On top of it, I had to sing the entire thing. Keep in mind that most Hebrew Schools in the US teach kids to read and speak Hebrew, but only in a ritual form, not as a practical language. Thus even though I was able to read the words and speak them properly, I had no idea at all what I was saying.

Top it off with the fact that there were some introductory prayers that I was told I wouldn't have to do (and thus did not memorize) which the Rabbi informed me I would in fact be saying about 5 minutes before I started. Did I mention that I was also wearing Tefillin for the first time in my life? All in all, the most terrifying moment of my as-then-short existence. Also, since it was in Jerusalem, none of my friends could attend, so that meant no presents.

Coincidentally, that was the last time I ever went to temple. This is one of the bizarre things about Judaism. I am very Jewish. I identify myself as Jewish, I call myself Jewish, and all the Jews I know consider me Jewish. I am also an atheist. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's a bizarre culture. I had hot pastrami for lunch. :2thumbsup:

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wow, tincow, that seems pretty painful event.... :laugh4:
now imagine doing that when youre a stutterer like me.

my parsha (torah portion) was pretty long, and i did the morning services and an 11 page speech.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

wow, tincow, that seems pretty painful event.... :laugh4:
now imagine doing that when youre a stutterer like me.

my parsha (torah portion) was pretty long, and i did the morning services and an 11 page speech.

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Ah, for all my kvetching, I did enjoy it. I just nearly pissed myself beforehand. I've worn a chai around my neck ever since, and despite my change in religious views that symbol still means a lot to me. It will almost certainly still be around my neck the day I die. There is something extremely comforting about knowing that if anti-semitism ever rears its head again, there's a place that will shelter me without any questions.

Well this helps Obama get some of that fundraising money:

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Obama Accepting Untraceable Donations
Contributions Reviewed After Deposits

By Matthew Mosk
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 29, 2008; A02

Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign is allowing donors to use largely untraceable prepaid credit cards that could potentially be used to evade limits on how much an individual is legally allowed to give or to mask a contributor's identity, campaign officials confirmed.

Faced with a huge influx of donations over the Internet, the campaign has also chosen not to use basic security measures to prevent potentially illegal or anonymous contributions from flowing into its accounts, aides acknowledged. Instead, the campaign is scrutinizing its books for improper donations after the money has been deposited.

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And then the LA Times won't release a video of Obama at some dinner with more assorted unsavory characters.

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What is the L.A. Times Hiding?

29 Oct 2008 01:01 pm
I don't think it's entirely necessary for me to explain, once again, why I believe that Rashid Khalidi is not a danger to the Republic. I also don't think I have to rehearse the controversial idea that Barack Obama was not, in fact, the Hyde Park chapter president of the PFLP-GC. (That was Rahm Emanuel.) But there's a video out there of Obama saying kind things about Khalidi, and on the general principle that information in an open society shouldn't be kept secret and that the voters should make up their own minds about whether or not they trust certain candidates, this video should be set free. But a pro-censorship organization called the Los Angeles Times, which has the tape in its possession, is hiding it, for reasons it won't fully explain. And it's looking more and more ridiculous each passing day.

I understand that the tape was leaked to the Times by a source or sources unknown, and that an agreement was struck with that source to keep the tape hidden, but the tape has been described in a Times story already, and it quite obviously contains no state secrets. I also suspect that the tape could be posted in such a way as to obscure its origins. The Times, however, won't discuss in detail why it's keeping the tape from its readers, and the newspaper's "readers' representative," Jamie Gold, has lined up against the readers, and argued against the release of the tape.

There is another reason why the tape should be posted: It might actually create interest in the L.A. Times. From what I understand, the mainstream media is in a bit of trouble these days. Perhaps -- this is just a thought here -- the L.A. Times could better its position in the world by drawing readers to its website.

Like I said, just a thought.

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CR

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Originally Posted by TinCow

Ah, for all my kvetching, I did enjoy it. I just nearly pissed myself beforehand. I've worn a chai around my neck ever since, and despite my change in religious views that symbol still means a lot to me. It will almost certainly still be around my neck the day I die. There is something extremely comforting about knowing that if anti-semitism ever rears its head again, there's a place that will shelter me without any questions.

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exactly. thats why we need israel.

on another note, i heard this story from a friend:

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Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read "Vote Obama, I need the money." I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a "Obama 08" tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference--just imagine the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server inside as I 've decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient needed money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.

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When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

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This guy is a prick, not a "socialist." Now, if he'd somehow taken five bucks from the guy who owned the restaurant chain, he'd have a flippin point-- maybe. At the very least the scenario would make sense. But the people Obama's tax plan would hit? Comparing them to people who live off tips, and taking money away from waiters?


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Excuse me, wiping away tears.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Horrible? How? The Bradley effect is a very real thing. In fact PJ is wishing you luck. You should thank him

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The Bradly effect has been made demonstrably false, but that is besides the point. Wishing on anyone that racism will change the vote is disgusting and reprehensible.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

heres the thing.
orthodox jews tend to vote conservative. reform jews vote liberal.

and no, we dont trust obama when it coems to israel b/c he will talk w/o preconditions to israels enemies, and that may not to be to our (israels) advantage....

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Obama winning Jewish vote 74-22%

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now, look at who obama surrounds himself with. 20 years with a very anti-israel pastor, palestinian friends, ect.
that concerns me.

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I would be more concerned at McCains actual membership of a group made up of various fascists neo nazis holocaust deniers and traitors who supported islamic fundamentalists and who he only left when the crap really hit the fan in the courts . And I wouldn't want to go too much on that pastor thing hooah as both McCain and Palin have had some very dodgy religious ties when it comes to anti semitism .
BTW

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considering the US and israel have been allies from the start

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errrrr....since when ?
You are not by any chance trying to re-write history there are you ?:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

on another note, i heard this story from a friend:

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From a "friend," is it? Is this your friend? hooahguy, if you're going to pass on anonymous emails that are getting re-mailed to you, just say so. Don't pretend you have some intimate connection with a story that is clearly fabricated, just to try to give it some weight.

https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/...Reilly_map.jpg

Oh noes! We're behind!

Seriously, you have to love Bill O'Reilly...

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Obama winning Jewish vote 74-22%

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well, considering what i said and that most american jews are reform......

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

errrrr....since when ?
You are not by any chance trying to re-write history there are you ?:inquisitive:

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nope. we have been allies from the start. we gave them weapons through the back alley during the 1948 war of independence. says so in the book "Gideons spies: a history of the mossad" (by Gordon Thomas, a great read btw).
maybe not officially allies, but we were.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

From a "friend," is it? Is this your friend? hooahguy, if you're going to pass on anonymous emails that are getting re-mailed to you, just say so. Don't pretend you have some intimate connection with a story that is clearly fabricated, just to try to give it some weight.

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no, i did hear the story from a friend. i just didnt know where it came from, so i said i heard it from a real friend. idk how that turned into i knew the guy who "fabricated" the story. some accusation. :inquisitive:
and no it wasnt through a chain email.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/...Reilly_map.jpg

Oh noes! We're behind!

Seriously, you have to love Bill O'Reilly...

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Hmmm. Looks good. Of course, the idea that East Oregon will outvote the Willamette valley or that the UP will be the only ones in Michigan casting votes seems a little chancy to me....:cheesy:

In other words, put OR, MN, WI, and MI into the blue category and take NC and put it into the greys and then, MAYBE, you're closer to on track.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Hmmm. Looks good. Of course, the idea that East Oregon will outvote the Willamette valley or that the UP will be the only ones in Michigan casting votes seems a little chancy to me....:cheesy:

In other words, put OR, MN, WI, and MI into the blue category and take NC and put it into the greys and then, MAYBE, you're closer to on track.

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From what I'm told by a Michigan friend, Michigan people are pretty shocked teh numbers are even as close as they are. Even throughout the UP you see a LOT of Obama signs. I was shocked to hear that and asked what the heck happened. Apparently McCain pulling out of Michigan really ticked them off, especially since they already felt shafted after the primary votes weren't counted.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

https://i141.photobucket.com/albums/...Reilly_map.jpg

Oh noes! We're behind!

Seriously, you have to love Bill O'Reilly...

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If that map isn't from two months ago, when it would have been somewhat accurate, then it's magical thinking.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Hmmm. Looks good. Of course, the idea that East Oregon will outvote the Willamette valley or that the UP will be the only ones in Michigan casting votes seems a little chancy to me....:cheesy:

In other words, put OR, MN, WI, and MI into the blue category and take NC and put it into the greys and then, MAYBE, you're closer to on track.

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Put IA into the blue category as well; I all but guarantee that Obama will win the state.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy

idk how that turned into i knew the guy who "fabricated" the story. some accusation.

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Well, if you didn't suspect that story of being invented from the ground up, then your lie-o-meter needs adjusting. The only thing that was missing to make it the perfect fabrication is the part where the hero gets held down by a huge black man and gets a "B" carved backward in his cheek.