OOC Thread and Chatroom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Celtic Viking

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... what's going on here? I thought I was going to command the Consular Legion, yes? That's, as I've understood it, why it's talk about a new commander of Legio I anyway. But in the rules for the Consul of Finance, it specifically states that the Consul of Finance cannot lead "an imperial legion" (which, as far as I take it, is a leftover since scrolling down where the different types of armies are listed, "imperial legion" doesn't exist - which makes me suspect it actually refers to consular legions now). Have I gotten things all wrong, has there been a mistake or am I going insane here?

Please help a confused Viking out. ~:)

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sorry that rule was meant to be taken out well...a long time ago. Ignore that.

Ah, thanks. I thought I had really failed to keep up. :sweatdrop:

hehe no my bad. Okay uploading all new library pics now...that was some work actually hehe. Our avatars are more spread out now its hard to findem all.

I'm in Epirus :2thumbsup:

haha i noticed, also TCV recruit some new RGBs for our newcomers as well as desert. And kill off desert's avatar (something Romanii).

To kill him off I'll undoubtedly have to walk him manually somewhere, alternatively send him off on a boat against pirates. I've just had enough of these Roman names; they've given me yet another reason to hate those pesky little Italians we play as. :shame:

The new avatars will be queued up next time I take the save.

sure thing, and you tellin me. Taking away an ancillary is hell! ARGH!

and about edict 5.3, I'm not sure whether would that apply now that Manius Claudius Cicero is Legatus; because he can only command 8 troops, but the edict requires legio I to be expanded by 2 units.
But I suppose that can be overwritten.

I updated the Phalerium with everyone's new ranks / promotions etc. Bean, could you update the Campus Martius legion assignments / rosters? I want to make sure that I have the correct openings in the Phalerium.

Commanders, remember to PM me with awards/decorations for your units. Also, remember to bring any decorations for Avatars up in the Curia.

Also, since Cotta is now a provincial governor, will he be giving up command of the Second, to stay in Epidamnos and govern?

it was sort of agreed upon (in the Curia) that Legio II becomes a provincial legion for Caius Aurelius Cotta's term as Governor, because a governorship comes with a provincial legion.

library is updated except for family kids, and overall map progression. Also ill be taking my aunt back home this weekend and will be gone two days. If i can find a way to get on iwill. o and Bean ill get tour PM as soon as i can.

Alright no problem, its not desperate. Take your time

Quote:

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Originally Posted by everyone

it was sort of agreed upon (in the Curia) that Legio II becomes a provincial legion for Caius Aurelius Cotta's term as Governor, because a governorship comes with a provincial legion.

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Where was this agreed upon? I saw no such thing and certainly didn't agree to it. A provincial legion should be raised for him. We don't have the manpower to simply give up an entire legion for him when we're at war on two fronts.

I say recruit a provincial legion and leave the Second in control of the Senior Aemili Legatus.

We certainly did mention it, but i can't remember where.

I didn't see it either, and I would've been against it as well. I say let Caivs continue to control Legio II as Legio II until we have a provincial legion raised for him.

Is that me Caivs or him Caivs?

I'm sure TCV means let Cotta control Legio II until we make a provincial legion - which is fine with me, so long as you don't get to do whatever you please with it as you would a provincial legion. In short, postpone your pronvicial governorship - or at least the freedoms you would have with the armies in that capacity.

Technical question:

If a new Legatvs would take over command of Legio II, would he have to choose new tribunes or do they just stay where they are.

"New" as in wasn't one of the original tribunes (who are Legati themselves) - OR - "new" as in was one of the tribunes; but is now the legion commander?

I would say in both cases leave the remaining/existing tribunes where they are (bump them up to second in command where applicable) and if available/wanted - open the recruiting in the Campus Martius

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiberius Claudius Marcellus

I'm sure TCV means let Cotta control Legio II until we make a provincial legion - which is fine with me, so long as you don't get to do whatever you please with it as you would a provincial legion. In short, postpone your pronvicial governorship - or at least the freedoms you would have with the armies in that capacity.

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Aside from postponing the provincial governorship, this is exactly what I was saying. You (Cotta) would still command Legio II, but not as your provincial legion so it still belonged to the Senate, and when your provincial legion is raised you take control over it and we assign a new commander to Legio II.

Actually, I think I should say something about this IC...

sooooo... any more thoughts about any of my laws? :p
Got no inet in the weekends, my apologies.

of course I understand that my whole reforms of the ranking system are a bit big and detailed.
And understand that for it to be implemented might take a bigger player base than we have atm.
Yet, there are small things in those rank reforms that can be implemented, which should pose no problem, should a number of peepz want it.

I do want to push some laws through, as my character is a draughtsman, and I want to leave my mark on the game by doing so :)
As for the moment, a tribunus blebis can only make one law, which is ridiculous considering his lawmaking role in ancient role.

So instead of the whole ranks to reform, we might discuss a few ranks at a time?
I still think a trib.plebs should be able to make a few laws in congres, and even a few outside (the latter being laws which may not influence the game mechanics in a heavy way).

I do have a few things in mind :)
If anything, I will be pushing my army reforms through ;)

Laws should be given names to the one draufted them.
Should I get the law of the reforms, it would be something like Lex Amiliae xxxx

The xxx part is open fordiscussion:
a real latin translation of the point of the law (in this case, latin for army reforms)
comic latin for the point of law (rg: reformus Legionis)

Mentioning the lawmaker in the library would be nice aswel :)

Few of my 'laws' which will be posted in the curia soon. This OOC discussion i'll cultivate as 'active lobbying in the forum' :D

Hmz

Maybe I should start spitting my laws :)

I will evoke my right as tribunus of the plebs to make laws in the comita for a few (meaning: no congressional voting) although i do agree that these rules will not affect the core rules/mechanics of this game. (so no rank reforms or anything)
And I'd like to play out the lawmaker card to propose more than 1 law.


Should the GM/general opinion stick to the fact that the tribunus plebis rank be confined to the 1 law on the rules as it is now, i'll leave it at there. Yet my 'revolt' against this rule (and maybe even a few others later on considering i've proposed even bigger reforms) can be seen as the historical emergence of the tribunus plebis in its known form :)


I'll do it IC in the curia one of these hours, and see how far I get ;)

perhaps you might want to propose it OOC (as in further refining it, and making it more clear), and ask to make those changes OOC without any IC reason.
and the "laws" you refer to are the rank changes thingum you said a page or so ago right? if not, ignore what I said in above

Well, i dropped the rank reform in its being a big chunk :) i will try to reform them in smaller parts :)

but in my current IC post, there are no rank reforms :)

I suggest that everyone reads again my rank reforms a few pages back, so that the discussion can take a 2nd breath.


As for the current laws, dont forget to read my scroll in the curia :-) (spoiler at the end of the post = scroll, for the blind ppl)

I like the idea of proposing laws, and thread where the commanders update status about the legions they command.
but I don't really agree with the legion reform thing; I think it should only apply for consular legions; since standard legions can be formed anywhere as long as there are 5 infantry, 1 cavalry and 2 missile units (remember the Legatus unit command limit) and another problem is that none of our current settlements can recruit pedites extraordinarii, classical hoplites or "local cavalry"; the only cavalry we got are Equites Romani and (I think) Campanian cavalry.
I still prefer your rank reform things though.

and I just thought of something, isn't the SOT post already an optional place to post something about their legions position etc?

and how do I Latinise "everyone"? :juggle2:

We should dispense with the rule 'can only command x numer of units.

you have either command of the allied units
command of a whole legion
or command of a consular legion

Everything else is unnecessary. (especially if we switch to my rank reforms)
It's good that you like my rank reforms, I hope I can implement them!! Of course a few small adjustment might prove necessary to fit our current playerbase. Also there of course ppl who will receive a new rank according to what they had under the current system.
What I like so much about my own idea, is the fact that elected ppl have ascendancy over ppl that are currently not in office :)


I hope more ppl will give feedback so we can fine tune this, including the GM :)

after looking through your epic suggestion post, I'm suggesting a few modifications (in bold, inside the quote) and additions (outside the quote). I'm not the GM, but I think some stuff could be made more specific/clear.

rule 2.5: (changes in bold)
2.5 Character Points

To get to the next rank (Rule 2.4) every player must get a certain amount of 'Character points'. Character points are gained from participating in IC events and having your character do something in-game

If character fights or particiaptes in a battle:
"Crushing Defeat" -3 points
"Clear Defeat" -2 point
"Average Defeat" -1 point
"Close Defeat" -1/2 point
"Close Victory" 1 point
"Average Victory" 2 point
"Clear Victory" 3 points
"Heroic Victory" 4 points
A character who participated in the same battle would earn half the amount of how much the commander earned; when the number by the former is at a decimal place, its absolute value would be rounded down. (e.g. -1.5 CPs would be -1, 2.5 CPs would be 2)

If a character governs a province or acts an assistant to the governor; CPs would be awarded per in-game year for the level of settlement they govern:
1CP for villages, towns, large towns
2CP for Cities, Large Cities
3CP for Huge Cities
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4. Armies (added 4.3, so number changes are obvious)

4.1 Consular Legion

Imperial Legions will consist of a minimum of 8 infantry cohorts, 4 ranged cohorts, and 2 cavalry cohorts; and will only be lead by a standing Consul.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments.
The owner of a Consular Legion will determine who commands the units, where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Only Consular Legions can have “Eagles” in them.

4.2 Standard Legions

Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; the Standard legions are to be made up of only Roman units (hastati, principes, triarii, cohortes, leves, etc)
The Consul of the Legions will decide who commands it, but it is up to the senate to decide where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Standard Legions can be created only during a Congressional Session by the Senate using an Edict for that.
All Standard Legions are marked with a number corresponding to how many Legions stand in Rome and where the Legion was created: 'I Legion of Roma, II Legion of Kyrene , III Legion of Bonnonia etc.'
Standard Legions can be disbanded only during the Congressional Session by the Senate through an Edict.

4.3 Allied legions

Allied legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; Allied legions are to consist of regional/allied units, such as Gallic units in Gaul, Italic allies in Italy, Galatian units in Galatia, etc.
(the rest are the same as standard legions so I won't waste words here)
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mini

So, here i'll propose a few new rules/mechanics.
Mind you that, to prevent multiposting, I might edit quite a lot ;)
All of this is of course open for discussion and coutns as a suggestion, as I am not the GM.

First of all, I would like to define 'pomerium', as it will return frequently:
pomerium in this game will be: all cities from arretium/ariminum down to Rhegium.

About Ranks: these are player ranks, mostly concerns governement.

Tribunus Militum

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: None (Training Stage)
Influence: 1 if at all
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
Penalties:
(1) The Tribunus is second or third in command of a legion. He is young and therefore must learn how to properly lead and is required to serve in a Legion under a Legatus for at least 2 battles to be promoted or earn 3 CPs
(2) May not lead an army nor propose laws; but is allowed to vote.
(3) Cannot Run for Consul
(4) Can only join a Legion that has a legate in it or find a governor/quaestor who is willing to accept him as a temporary or permenant aid/assistant governor.

Tribune of the Plebs

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Speaks for the Plebs in the Comita.
Requirements: Must be elected to position. Atleast 2 tribunes should be in office.
Influence: 1+1
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can propose one edict/charter amendment per congressional council;
(2) Can veto.
(3)The Tribune of the Plebs term is two Consul Terms long. (6 years)
(4) Can issue 3 laws/edicts outside the congressional council(representing their lawmaker role in the republic). These laws will take 2 turns before going into effect,giving the other Tribune(s) the chance to veto.
Penalties:
(1) May not lead an army
(2) Cannot Run for Consul until term is over
(3) Must remain in Rome.

Privatuus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: completed the Tribunus Militum training stage but not have been assigned to any other office.
influence: 1
powers:
(1) May be appointed as a Legatus
(2) may be appointed as a second in-command of any legion
(3)

Legatus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have served in at least 2 battles as a Tribunus Militum. Must be appointed by Senate/Consul/Provincial Governor. This office lasts for a 12-turn congressional session if appointed ONLY by the senate and may be extended via another edict
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Is given command(means if he's assigned, he will have command of a legion, the whole purpose of this offices thing) of a standard or allied legion.
(2) can propose one edict per congressional session
(3) may serve as an aid to a Provincial governor and command one or more of the governor's provincial legions.

Dux

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Not assigned to any office, but a honorary rank for military achievements; must have commanded and won 5 victories of any sort; a defeat means a -1 to the amount of battles won.
influence: 2
powers:
(1) Can propose 1 edict/charter amendment per Congresssional session
(2) Can have 2 units of their choice as their Bodyguard Army. These Units must be available as mercenaries or recruitable in the region where the general was in the time he got this rank. These units can not be disbanded nor can they be removed from the Player by the Dictator. The units shall be spawned via console by the GameMaster upon confirmation from the player who is the Dux.

Quaestor (edits to become like current 'Aedile' rank)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have been appointed by the consul of Finance OR voted into position during a congressional session; AND have 12 'character points'.
There may be an unlimited number of Quaetors; voting of Quaetors is on a yes/no/abstain poll, if the candidate has more 'no' than 'yes', he would not be voted in.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose two Edict/Charter Amendment per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can be given a province to govern (which means not all Quaestors govern provinces) govern the Province they have been given by the CoF, provincial governor, or edict.. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(3) May control any unit that begins the 'turn' in the city he governs, unless it is commanded by another player and part of/to be part of a Legion.
(4) Must be appointed by Consul of Finance or edict
Penalties
(1) Cannot command a Standard, Consular or Allied Legion

Praetor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have been Quaestor OR Tribunus plebis. Must have 20 'character points'. Must also been elected into the position for the 12-turn consul term.
There may be an unlimited number of Praetors; voting of Praetors is on a yes/no/abstain poll, if the candidate has more 'no' than 'yes', he would not be voted in.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 3
Powers:
(1) Can lead 1 legion of any type
(2) Can propose 3 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(3) Will get to choose province to govern when a term as praetor is over, after both consuls have chosen theirs as the congressional session ends. If there are not enough provinces then the characters' governorship would be decided by Character Points.
(4) Can act as the judge during trials (e.g. IC events or something like that).

Consul of Finance

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Only Consul of Finance will end the “turn”.
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any building in any settlements he wishes and set the tax rate in any settlement unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot recruit military units.
(2) Gains automatically control of the Consular Legio II. This legion will be stationed in a fort outside Capua. It may never enter Latium unless passing through or if there is an enemy near Rome. Legion will be used only to clean up rebels inside the pomerium ONLY.
(3) Must be stationed in Roma when not commanding Legio II. The finance consul must always be in Rome to govern. Unless fighting off rebels.
(4) All diplomats (not spies or assassins) are under the command of the Consul of Finance. He can move them and use them as he sees fit.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get first pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(9) Can exclude 1 avatar from participating in the congres. the so called: "lictors, remove this man" move ;) Basically only to be used when people are truely annoying in the Curio, or rebellious.

Consul of the Legion’s
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any military unit in any settlements he wishes unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot construct buildings.
(2) Assumes control of the Consular Legio I (composition, see below).
(3) May choose his theater of war.
(4) All Assassins and Spies (unless specified) are under command of the Consul of the Legion’s. He can move them and use them in any way he wishes.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get second pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.

Princeps Senatus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Princeps Senatus is the “primus inter pares”. That indicates that the person so described is technically equal, but looked upon as an authority of special importance by his peers.
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Leader.
Influence: 3 + 2 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 5
Powers:
(1) Can propose 3 Edicts/Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(3) Once during his reign, the Princeps Senatus can automatically assume the post of dictator. The Princeps Senatus must declare he is exercising that right. He will then be appointed Dictator of Rome with no election. This right can only be invoked once. (penalty to influence after)
(4) Has the right to veto 3 propositions from the consuls&praetors, representing his influence on senior senators. However CAN NOT veto any law by the Tribunus Plebis.
(steal retinue power removed)

Provincial Governor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must be appointed to this rank by the Senate OR be a consul/praetor. Must have been Legatus.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 2 (isn't 'Influence' already 'vote weight'? Something I forgot to clarify)
Powers:
(1) Can govern the Province(s) they have been given. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(2) Can not propose any of Edicts or Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can Prioritize one building in any build queue in any settlement in his Province(s).
(4) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can destroy one building in any settlement. Buildings in the barracks lines cannot be destroyed with this power, unless they cannot be used by the Romani.
(5) Can move any units in the borders of his Province(s) in any way he wishes unless they are controlled by another Player, including spies that are recruited from his province(s) and not under the control of the Consul of Legions.
(6) Every Provincial Governor will have an 6 unit Provincial Legion. The provincial legion may consist of any unit the governor wishes. The Provincial legion's upkeep is to be paid via the Forum Trapezai. The amount of Legions per province may increase for every 5 stat points the governor has
(7) Can appoint another Senator to govern any city he choses in his Governorship.
(8) the governorship lasts for as long as the character is alive; unless the character is a Consul, in which it only lasts during the Consul's term.

The basic idea is that ppl who are 'in office' have a bigger grip on the current events during their office, while after their term, they go govern a province and ergo will have less to say than the peepz currently in charge.
The mechanic of 'office peep' choosing their provinces, will ensure that there will be a change in provinces often enough. Everybody get's the chance (or obligation) to control a different province in the course of the game.
Let me also clarify that 'province' is not the same as (city)
For example: provincia Gallia Cisalpina will be: bononia, mediolanum patavium aquilea. basically everthing above arretium. This will all be in the control of 1 governor, but the governor can choose quaestors to govern the other cities there.
For the defenition of provinces, this will be dynamic. As the empire expands/declines we can make more or bigger provinces and vice versa.
As everyone execpt the consul can only command 1 legion, in later parts of the game there will be provinces that require more than 1 legion to operate. This is were the rank of Legate comes into play.
A provincial governor may request a certain grand strategy in his province from his legates, but basically each one does what he wants with his legion :)

(removed a large part about the legions because I'm not discussing it here)

There, ranks and legions redefined. Just read it, ask any question, give feedback

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overall, I like the idea of the "offices" system, it is more "Rome"-ish, and read the part where I editted about the Praetor thing.
And the Legates serving under the Governor thing is also quite nice; like LotR's feudal thing where the Legatus is the Governor's "vassal"
the Privatuus thingy, I changed it for characters who hold no office
and Mini's description is also very convincing.
But I think these reforms should come into place a bit later in the game. like when we have around 25 provinces
The stuff about the forming Houses and provincial government should also be revised accordingly if this rank changes takes place
this is rather disorganised because it's a very long post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by everyone

4. Armies (added 4.3, so number changes are obvious)

4.1 Consular Legion

Imperial Legions will consist of a minimum of 8 infantry cohorts, 4 ranged cohorts, and 2 cavalry cohorts; and will only be lead by a standing Consul.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments.
The owner of a Consular Legion will determine who commands the units, where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Only Consular Legions can have “Eagles” in them.

4.2 Standard Legions

Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; the Standard legions are to be made up of only Roman units (hastati, principes, triarii, cohortes, leves, etc)
The Consul of the Legions will decide who commands it, but it is up to the senate to decide where it is to move (if at all), and whom to attack.
Standard Legions can be created only during a Congressional Session by the Senate using an Edict for that.
All Standard Legions are marked with a number corresponding to how many Legions stand in Rome and where the Legion was created: 'I Legion of Roma, II Legion of Kyrene , III Legion of Bonnonia etc.'
Standard Legions can be disbanded only during the Congressional Session by the Senate through an Edict.

4.3 Allied legions

Allied legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts.
For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ Bodyguard units do not count as cavalry cohorts; Allied legions are to consist of regional/allied units, such as Gallic units in Gaul, Italic allies in Italy, Galatian units in Galatia, etc.
(the rest are the same as standard legions so I won't waste words here)

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Well i just want to comment that there never were roman legions and allied legions..
1 legion would exist of one roman half and one allied half.
until marius reformed the army and italy was massively enfranchised into the roman citizenship. Then we had fully roman legions (since the former italians were now romans).
So until the marian reforms, i'd like to see the same thing. this is reflected in my army compositions i suggested.

Also the 'UNIFORMIZATION' of the legions is a very important factor.
A composition should be standard. Not just 5 mellee units, 2 ranged etc.

Roman armies were all the same (except for the allied half, which varied a bit, but only by a hair).

Therefore, 1 legion of max 10-12 units, composed as I said, would give the historical feel.

I also think making legions uniform is important when we start electing people.
As I said before, it should be normal that a provincial governor switches provinces every 1 or 2 consul-terms (12turns?) and by giving everyone an exact same legion, there can never be any discussion about: player skills, favoritism, or god knows what.

Standard legions mean swappable legions mean a transparant financial government mean much easier for everybody.

when it comes to your remarks to the rank system, i have no comments since most are clarifications.
I wasn't really sure what the influence stands for in the current rules, so I added my own vote weights :)

I also removed the spies thing for the COL, since it would be easier if the provincial governor would control the spies in his province.


I also would like to point out, that in my system, a province is not necessarily a city. (shouldn't any have read it in the OP) A province is an area to be determined by the senate (meaning we can adjust it by laws) and might contain more than 1 city.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mini

I also removed the spies thing for the COL, since it would be easier if the provincial governor would control the spies in his province.

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So what about spies in enemy territory, or in provinces where there is no provincial governor?