What are the Cimbri?

cmacq, thank you very much for the infos and your statements. Some of the places I've visited, it's nice to see it again on the forum. :happy:

A possible hint (the only one) that Ariovist could have been from a Suebic gens is Plinius report (stated by Nepos) about the embassy of an unknown Suebic king in Rom in the year 62 BC. It is tempting but not sure to assume that Ariovist could have been this king.


I'm still a bit irritated by your term "Swabian". Isn't it better to speak of "Alemanni" and "Suebi" when referring to the development of the group settling in south-western Germany from the 3rd c. AD onwards?

As far as I know the direct line from "the" Suebi to the Alemanni (and therefore Swabians) is very much in doubt in recent theories. The people later known as Alemanni were a mixtum compositum of different small groups that settled in the south-west after the agri decumates were abandoned by the Romans. Evidence for a long-lasting movement of small groups from the Elbe-Saale area into the south-west comes from archaeological findings. We cannot speak of Alemanni before 289 AD, the first reliable account of these people. Arguments for this unspectacular late and new "nation-building" are also the name (meaning "all people") and the total absence of a traditional core and myths of origin of the Alemanni. The word "Suebi" was related to the Alemanni first in the late 5th c. AD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geala

I'm still a bit irritated by your term "Swabian". Isn't it better to speak of "Alemanni" and "Suebi" when referring to the development of the group settling in south-western Germany from the 3rd c. AD onwards?

As far as I know the direct line from "the" Suebi to the Alemanni (and therefore Swabians) is very much in doubt in recent theories. The people later known as Alemanni were a mixtum compositum of different small groups that settled in the south-west after the agri decumates were abandoned by the Romans. Evidence for a long-lasting movement of small groups from the Elbe-Saale area into the south-west comes from archaeological findings. We cannot speak of Alemanni before 289 AD, the first reliable account of these people. Arguments for this unspectacular late and new "nation-building" are also the name (meaning "all people") and the total absence of a traditional core and myths of origin of the Alemanni. The word "Suebi" was related to the Alemanni first in the late 5th c. AD.

---

Walafrid Strabo, writing in the 9th century AD stated, concerning the people of Switzerland and surrounding regions, that only foreigners said they were Alamanni. While in their native tongue they called themselves the Suevi. Asinius Quadratus around 550 AD said the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cmacq

Walafrid Strabo, writing in the 9th century AD stated, concerning the people of Switzerland and surrounding regions, that only foreigners said they were Alamanni. While in their native tongue they called themselves the Suevi. Asinius Quadratus around 550 AD said the same.

---

IIRC the term "Alamanni" was originally used to refer to the freemen warriors of the Suebi ("Suabiske Allamanne").

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hannibal Khan the Great

IIRC the term "Alamanni" was originally used to refer to the freemen warriors of the Suebi ("Suabiske Allamanne").

---

Not sure, but is interesting as that seems to be the same as the Fra- or Fre- in Frank meaning 'freeman.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geala

I'm still a bit irritated by your term "Swabian". Isn't it better to speak of "Alemanni" and "Suebi" when referring to the development of the group settling in south-western Germany from the 3rd c. AD onwards?

---

No, I think its important to address the Alemanni as Swabian; just as the Marcomannii were Swabians; both users of forms of a very early west Germanic, that later became OHG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geala

A possible hint (the only one) that Ariovist could have been from a Suebic gens is Plinius report (stated by Nepos) about the embassy of an unknown Suebic king in Rom in the year 62 BC. It is tempting but not sure to assume that Ariovist could have been this king.

---

Thank you for providing Pliny, as we know this has been the link between the Swaboz and Ariouistos. But maybe we should look a bit closer, as they say, 'the devils in the detail?’ What exactly, did Pliny write?

OK, this what Pliny wrote concerning the gift of a Swabian king.

Quote:

---

Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia
Book 2, chapter 67
idem nepos de septentrionali circuitu tradit quinto metello celeri, afrani in consulatu collegae, sed tum galliae proconsuli, indos a rege sueborum dono datos, qui ex india commercii causa navigantes tempestatibus essent in germaniam abrepti.

My Render
Likewise, about a northern passage Cornelius Nepos cites Quintus Metellus Celer, a consular colleague of Lucius Afranius, yet in fact when proconsul of Cisalpine Gaul, a Swabian ruler gave a gift made by of Hindi, as when shipped sailing from India as to trade, it they wrecked upon Germany, due to storms.

Bostock
The same Cornelius Nepos, when speaking of the northern circumnavigation, tells us that Q. Metellus Celer, the colleague of L. Afranius in the consulship, but then a proconsul in Gaul, had a present made to him by a king of the Suevi, of certain Indians, who sailing from India for the purpose of commerce, had been driven by tempests into Germany.

---

As we deconstruct Pliny it quickly becomes apparent that he was using this antidotal information to support a world view proposed by Hecataeus, Eratosthenes, Posidonius, Strabo, and Pomponius. See below. Using this view, one would think that a ship might sail from India, northwest around the globe to arrive along the northern coast of Germania. Thus, more or less a direct sea voyage.

However, we know a direct northern sea passage is very unlikely. So right off we must decide if the account is real or fabricated. So that we may advance this line of evidence, lets say that the story Pliny accredited to Nepos, who in turn cites Metellus Celer is not a fabrication. However, in order to do this, we must outline it and then consider if what the story says, could possibly have happened.

The outline is as follows:
• A statement that the event occurred between 62 and 60 BC, but no latter than 59 BC, when Quintus Caecilius Metellus Celer was proconsul of Gallia Cisalpina.
• The event concerned the gift from a Swabian prince given to Quintus Caecilius Metellus Celer.
• The gift was present to Quintus Caecilius Metellus Celer in Gallia Cisalpina and not Gaul.
• The gift had been manufactured in India.
• The gift was a number individuals from India.
• The gift as trading cargo had been shipped from India.
• These Hindi had been on a trading mission from India.
• The ship that carried the gift was shipwrecked due to storms.
• The ship that carried the Hindi was shipwrecked due to storms.
• The shipwreck occurred along the coast of Germania.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rldmaphedo.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cmacq

Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia
Book 2, chapter 67
idem nepos de septentrionali circuitu tradit quinto metello celeri, afrani in consulatu collegae, sed tum galliae proconsuli, indos a rege sueborum dono datos, qui ex india commercii causa navigantes tempestatibus essent in germaniam abrepti.

My Render
Likewise, about a northern passage Cornelius Nepos cites Quintus Metellus Celer, a consular colleague of Lucius Afranius, yet in fact when proconsul of Cisalpine Gaul, a Swabian ruler gave a gift made by the Hindi, as when shipped from India as trade, it wrecked upon Germany, due to storms.

---

That's an interesting take on this apocryphal little story, but allow me just a little bit of constructive criticism ..., your translation seems to me a bit contorted and geared towards a rather specific interpretation ;) Don't misunderstand me, but I'd rather accept the conventional reading that the - supposedly enslaved - stranded Indians themselves were presented to Quintus Metellus Celer as a gift ('quinto metello celeri[...]indos[...]dono datos, qui ex india commercii causa navigantes tempestatibus essent in germaniam abrepti.') - there seems to have been no exotic trading cargo involved ('qui [...] navigantes' and 'tempestatibus [...] abrepti' cannot really grammatically refer to 'dono', but must refer to 'indos[...]dono datos').

All I can say is, I've been very tired lately. And yes, I see my errors, now. Thanks for correcting me, with a much clearer head, I must agree with you.

Quote:

---

Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia
Book 2, chapter 67
idem nepos de septentrionali circuitu tradit quinto metello celeri, afrani in consulatu collegae, sed tum galliae proconsuli, indos a rege sueborum dono datos, qui ex india commercii causa navigantes tempestatibus essent in germaniam abrepti.

My Render
Likewise, about a northern passage Cornelius Nepos cites Quintus Metellus Celer, a consular colleague of Lucius Afranius, yet in fact when proconsul of Cisalpine Gaul, a Swabian ruler gave a gift of Hindi, as when sailing from India to trade, they wrecked upon Germany, due to storms.

---

Sorry for the mistake. I will admit when I make mistakes they are typically big. Now Nepos' Hindi-gift story becomes even stranger. Still, given the complex nature of Classical commerce, it is concevable that several Hindi, on a trade mission to procure amber in the Baltic, were indeed shipwrecked on the northern shore of greater Germania. However, for this to have occurred, regarding the statement about a northern passage, we must conclude that Pliny, Nepos, or Celer assumed these Hindi had sailed directly from India.

Although, using a southern route, it could have happened, but it would have been somewhat unlikely. Nonetheless, if they had, I believe this trading mission would represent the longest recorded voyage in antiquity. Another, yet slightly more likely possibility would be that the Hindi traveled overland, from the Indus to the Baltic, and somehow procured passage on an unknown type of trading vessel, where thereafter they were shipwrecked.

However, cutting to the chase and gift-giver, Pliny seems to be referring to a Swabian ruler who lived within Germania, somewhat near the coast and what was known as the Suevi Sea. This would be near the center of the Swaboz/Jastorf culture in the lower Elbe basin area. This would also be somewhat supported by the nature of the overland trade network, or Amber Roads, leading south from the Baltic, the Elbe basin south into Bohemia, to Noria, and farther to Gallia Cisalpina.

At the time Nepos' Hindi-gift story is said to have occurred Ariouistos had been living in southeast Gaul for about a decade. Although possibly an argument could be made for a route from the Baltic, to the Elbe, Main, Rhine, Alsace, Rhone and on Gallia Transalpina. But, from the Alsace to Gallia Cisalpina would have been out-of-the-way. Thus, its unlikely he was the ruler mentioned in the story. So we're still having trouble finding a contemporary, or near contemporary source, that specifically says he was a Swaboz. Yet in contrast, Caesar makes it quite clear he was a king of Germans.

I'll make the corrections on the above post, but for now must run.