If it wasn't so mean-spirited, it would be funny...

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Originally Posted by Fragony

They don't have to do it for me I don't give a hoot, but these people do. In my opinion she isn't defending her 'rights', how hard can it be to respect the feelings of others. If she would be silently crying in a corner I would sympathize with her, since everything looks like she is looking for trouble I really don't. Don Corleone said it best, you don't win any argument by forcing your views upon others. Have some bloody dignity instead clawing at whatever that doesn't suit your very specific needs. How if I may ask, would you have reacted, I know how I would have so I have every reason in the world to judge her. She can be gay all her life, why does she demand this as well, leave some for the rest being gay isn't a right it's a sexual orientation, no more no less. Prom is a tradition like carnaval, no more no less. You don't have to go.

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her feelings arent being respected either frag. but that is besides the point. its not about feelings. it is about a public school denying a student of their school a public right. thats what wrong.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Nope no inconsistancy, you will have to look at the other side for those, I treat all religions with the same disdain but only critisism of one particular one leaves the lefties breathless with moral outrage, otherwise they are cheering. And I know from experience how these debates go, sorry if it doesn't apply for you but that makes you a rather rare one.

The point is simple, she can't accept that not everybody sees things like she does and she will wreck everything in her way to fulfill her selfish needs, she doesn't care about anybody's feelings only about herself. She wants it, and she wants it now.

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why are you going on and on about leftists... as if it is a particular leftist trait to be hypocrite. as i said care nothing for left or right. im caring only for you and me now.

and for your last argument. the school is doing exactly the same. but you donty judge them the same way as the girl. or are they in their right because their tradition is more ancient than hers.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Not expllicit means implicit im this sort of speak, so the school didn't explicity state that they would cancel the prom otherwise it's called denial, so that means they hinted at it. Clearly enough for everybody to understand. She put her heels in the sand (is that even english) and so did the school. Why doesn't enyone consider the position of the school, what if they allowed it in a place such as that I tried to argue that before, it's a deeply conservative part of America what choice do they really have, might not like the general consensus of the place but it's what they have to work with anyway, she cornered them and cornered cats make odd jumps as we say here. If it is a tradition that is so important for her, why it so unimportant for her?

Traditions can change too, you know. Societies evolve. Discrimination is no longer accepted nowadays. That's a good thing too, if you ask me.

Sure but give it the time it requires. I am just as progressive as you guys when it comes to this and I think it is a wasted opertunity, but when you overdo it it becomes harassment. When you are overdoing it depends on the place, these people have just as much right on their way of looking at things.

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just because time is required doesnt mean you may oppose it. or try to speed things up. how many time are muslims given to integrate into our society?

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

her feelings arent being respected either frag.

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I know that and I could have been on her side. She has a whole life ahead of her without all that, why does she want this and out of all places there. She could let these people be, but I guess her cause is greater then the complexity of these things.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I know that and I could have been on her side. She has a whole life ahead of her without all that, why does she want this and out of all places there. She could let these people be, but I guess her cause is greater then the complexity of these things.

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she lives there man. she is a child she does not decide where she goes to school or where she lives. her cause is not greater than the complexity of things. her cause is part of why these things are so complex. you condemn her for being selfish and thinking only of her self, but you dont condemn the other side of the argument for being selfish and only see their side of it. in that respect it is debatable wether both are wrong or right. i dont believe either of them is wrong or right in that respect. the school however is wrong against the law. and she is not.

thats all.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

she lives there man. she is a child she does not decide where she goes to school or where she lives. her cause is not greater than the complexity of things. her cause is part of why these things are so complex. you condemn her for being selfish and thinking only of her self, but you dont condemn the other side of the argument for being selfish and only see their side of it. in that respect it is debatable wether both are wrong or right. i dont believe either of them is wrong or right in that respect. the school however is wrong against the law. and she is not.

thats all.

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I am not excusing anyone, I am just trying to bring in some nuance and situational awareness. If you really care about her cause, why do you think this will do hers any good, she will be detested a whole lot more for trying to make her cause everybody's cause rather then just being gay in any society.

she is not trying to make her cause everyone's cause. she is just fighting for her own cause. just as the school is fighting for theirs. and instead of accepting the sentence opposed to them, the school did not accept it and canceled the prom. so who should accept. it would have been something different if she still would have pressed the matter when the law had decided against her favor.

and i again i dont care for her cause personally. im not a forerunner in gayrights. i oppose it neither. only in this particular case i side against the school. they are wrong. that does not neccesarily make her right. though i do not believe that she is wrong in this case, given the information i have.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

she is not trying to make her cause everyone's cause. she is just fighting for her own cause. just as the school is fighting for theirs. and instead of accepting the sentence opposed to them, the school did not accept it and canceled the prom.

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Which is a pretty elegant solution when you think of it. Lawyers on all sides so this is big, can't say they discriminated they blew of the whole thing for everybody. Or do you think they didn't see this coming.

fragony stop going on and on about the sidepoints of this matter. you have no facts about it, neither do i. its not even relevant. you say you want to add nuance by also showing the other point of view. i already agreed with you that respect of tradition can also be important. and if the situation was different more critisism towards the girl might have been founded. but now, she did not pick the school herself. she did not think which school is the most traditional conservative school. there i will strike my fist for the gay cause. she lives there. her parents picked the school probably. even if she picked it, do you think she planned this whole event 4 years in advance? and here comes the most important part, IT IS A PUBLIC SCHOOL. PUBLIC frag... which mean it is open for everyone.

if i were to be kicked out my school because the racist uptown schoolboard richies did something to me that was out of line i would stand up for myself. i would all the way untill i would be either proven wrong or right by the court. and then i would leave the school myself. because if they cant deal with something the law says they should have to deal with than it is their own problem. i would not provoke, but i will also not be dealt with injustice.

i doubt you really believe that here mere presence is offensive to other people. i doubt that you believe it is right. you are probably talking about the lawyers and all. but remember she is a 16 year old child. she is not the most mature person in the world. but all this is besides the point. The school is public so they stepped out of their jurisdiction, they got corrected and then acting as if they knew what is best for everyone, canceled the prom. maybe a poll among students would have been a solution?

You are correct I don't think it is right. I don't have to agree with the decision to be able to understand it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

You are correct I don't think it is right. I don't have to agree with the decision to be able to understand it.

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neither do i. i understand perfectly (oke maybe not perfectly but well enough) the schools reasons. maybe not so much their reasoning and the course of actions they took. i don't condone it. also wether their actions, of both the girl and the school are morally right i leave out of perspective. with lawyers involved it has become a matter of law and justice. and in that area i judge the school wrong and the girl not.