Re: First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kadagar_AV
What?
Spell it out. Use your words.
C'mon, you can do it... You don't even... What?
What is it that you do not.... get?
You don't even get how Germans could "just follow orders": Ever heard of Milgram?
You don't even get how Germans could wage war without a reason: Remind me of why the US is in Iraq again?
You don't even... What? Again, spell it out, use your words.
lol U mad? Reread what I said and highlighted in the quote and maybe you will get the point next time.
Re: First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brenus
Sorry, all wrong...
Otto Kahn in his statement of 1962 specifically states that he did not see "executed German soldiers" or a burned out ambulance at any time near Oradour. In fact he does quite specifically state that if he had seen such sights, then he would not have raised any objections to the attack.None of the 21 men on trial for their lives in Bordeaux in 1953 or subsequently Barth in 1983 mention actually finding "executed German soldiers". Or even of having been told about such an incident by their officers before they got to Oradour.
There are no records from German army units showing such causalities as mentioned above.
Diekmann himself never mentioned either finding the bodies of "executed German soldiers" or a burnt out ambulance when he first reported to Stadler in the afternoon of 10th June. According to Otto Weidinger these 'facts' only came to light later before the Divisional Court in Normandy shortly before Diekmann's death and later still from the papers and tapes of Lammerding's estate.
Otto Weidinger says that he met the "Maquis chief in the Dordogne Jugie (called, Gao) in Paris in1969, the latter freely admitted that weapons and ammunition had of course been stashed in all houses in Oradour at that time" (from: Tulle and Oradour a Franco German Tragedy).
If the town was as full of arms, ammunition and explosives, as some have claimed, why was not some use made of them in the defence of Oradour? After all according to Gerlach's statement, the town was a Resistance stronghold full of uniformed fighters.
The ruins of Oradour and they show clear evidence of fire damage, but none of blast damage (for example, no walls blown out). If arms ammunition and explosives were hidden in nearly every house as Weidinger claims, this is not what one would expect to see.
No, my dear Pj, Oradour sur Glane is a clear example of SS/Nazi lies, cowardice and inefficiency, exept in killing defenceless civilians...
"Jean Canou, who was a Sergeant in the FTP and was the man who actually captured Kämpfe on the evening of 9th June said, "I am convinced that the Gestapo confused Oradour-sur-Glane with Oradour-sur-Vayres, a well known centre of resistance twenty miles away. Oradour-sur-Glane was one of the most passive villages in France"
No link? Luckily, I am familiar with Mike Williams' work, including his lack of footnotes and bias toward his own version of the events. I'm not digging the subtle editing of the quoted material.
His version may be correct. Again, there is no way to know for sure. His quoted points are fairly easy to dispute with material from his own site and a little bit of common sense, though. For example, why would perfectly viable weapons and ammunition be left in the houses to burn? Diekmann did claim to face resistance upon approaching the village, and did mention the executed Germans in a report issued at 17:30 on the very same day.
As to those executed Germans, it is well documented that German forces took casualties to the resistance in the area. Apparently Mr. Williams is 'not aware' of them because he hasn't looked. It is known, and stated on his own site, that the strategy of the trials was to portray Diekmann as a lone madman to cover everyone else involved. Giving him reason (executed Germans) for his actions would have muddled that defense. Khan's statement is particularly dubious as it clears him (second in command) of any responsibility. He claims that he simply walked away and waited in a house while the executions occurred. In any event, the incident which led Diekmann to Oradour-sur-Glane was the execution of a German soldier...
From the sworn statement of Obersturmführer Karl Gerlach:
Quote:
The Regiment, coming from the south of France, arrived in Limoges during the night of 8/9 June 1944. On the morning of 9 June I received orders from regimental commander Stadler in Limoges to prepare quarters for the assault-gun battalion in the area of Nieul. He instructed me with reference to the map and warned me about the resistance fighters who were active in the area.
I then drove to Nieul with six men in three cars. There we prepared quarters but because the location was not big enough, with reference to the map we drove to the neighbouring communities. My car was faster than the other two. Therefore I soon had to halt and because the others were not following, I turned back to find them. After a short stretch I was suddenly stopped on the open road by a lorry in which I recognised military uniforms. For a second I thought they were friends, because we had been told that Frenchmen in militia uniform were fighting on our side. Before I was able to consider any further, let alone make use of my sub-machine gun, seven or eight uniformed men had jumped out of the lorry, trained their weapons on us and were approaching my car shouting and calling for us to put our hands up.
They dragged my driver and myself out of the car, tore the uniforms from our bodies, hit us in the face and said, accompanied by quite unmistakable gesticulations: 'SS-finished now'.
All we had on was our underwear. They shoved us off the road as we were into a thicket. I was convinced that they would shoot us straight away, so I tried to get a word in and explain something to them, first to their leader, a tall slim man in his early thirties and wearing militia uniform.
He did not seem to understand me at all because all he said was: 'No SS! SS finished!' So I spoke to a younger man who spoke relatively good German, obviously an Alsatian and who seemed to feel sorry for us, but that did not help either. I then stated that I was an orderly officer of the division and that I could give them important information if they brought me to their Marquis commander. That seemed to make an impression on the Alsatian who translated it to his leader. The latter looked at me and said something to me, but I was unable to understand.
My driver and I were dragged back to the lorry. We were told to get in and drove off with our armed escort. After a while I saw some village signs and was able to get my bearings. Then came a sign at the beginning of a village, which read: Oradour-sur-Glane. Here we halted in the main street. We had to get out and were surrounded by Marquis and a lot of curious onlookers. I noticed a lot of people in uniform, even women with yellow jackets and steel helmets. The atmosphere became more threatening from minute to minute and one of the uniformed men therefore had us brought back to the lorry. I saw ropes being brought out of a barn next to a bakery in the main street. My driver and I were made to get down from the lorry again and were bound with the ropes, with both arms behind our backs; the knots were additionally secured with wire. We stood like this for about three-quarters of an hour. Then two French civilians came along on a tandem. They spoke to the assembled people and we had to get back into the lorry.
The men who had captured us still accompanied us as guards. We drove away from Oradour-sur-Glane, the tandem about a hundred metres in front and constantly giving us signs. We stopped for the first time at a house on whose front there was a telephone sign. The two civilians riding the tandem telephoned from here. They returned to the lorry and explained something to what seemed to be the leader of our escort.
We then drove off the main road to the left into an area that was quite without any buildings. After three or four kilometres we were dropped off at a picket, the ropes were undone and we were given something to eat. The lorry with our escort drove on and came back about two or three hours later. We were again tied up and got back onto the lorry.
We continued for eight to ten kilometres to a glade in the forest where I saw a milestone reading: 6.5 km to Bellac. We turned of the road into this glade and in about 300 metres further on came upon a French lorry bearing the tricolour.
Here we were again dragged out of the lorry and badly mistreated. We were hauled before a young Marquis, wearing a blue uniform who appeared to be the commander.
We were not interrogated, he simply shouted at us: 'SS nix listen, finished now'. The young Alsatian, one of our escorts tried to intervene but the commander snapped at him very harshly. The commander then called to some other Frenchmen, also wearing blue uniforms and as far as I could make out from the signs and movements gave them orders to lead us into the woods and shoot us. My driver quite clearly realised what was going on and struggled and tried to resist being taken away. The Frenchmen standing around us became infuriated and set about him. I grabbed the opportunity and dashed for the nearby woods. I ran for all I was worth, I ran for my life. I heard shots and as I turned round I saw my driver slump to the ground. I plunged onwards, seeking cover behind trees and bushes. They pursued me and I could hear them shouting behind me; several shots whistled past my head. I changed direction constantly. Through this deception and the cover of falling night I managed to escape.
I had carefully studied the map before leaving Limoges, so I knew that I must come across the railway line between Bellac and Limoges. I did reach it and the next morning, 10 June, I arrived at the command post in Limoges.
I reported to regimental commander Stadler and described what had happened. He told me that I was not the only one who had been attacked and kidnapped on the preceding day. The commander of III battalion Der Führer, an officer named Kämpfe, had not yet returned and was probably dead. The regimental commander told me to have a good rest because we had a difficult march before us.
When I got up the commander of I battalion Der Führer, Diekmann, got me to show him on the map the spot where I had been captured and the way to the place where my driver had been shot. He left soon thereafter with the 3rd company, under the command of Hauptsturmführer Kahn, in the direction of Oradour-sur-Glane.
Re: First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan
Yep. There is still the fact no one SS indicted by the French Court for War Crimes did mention Ambulance or any bodies near the village. None. And the problem with what I read from the text you show is, err, a blue uniform would be the Milice, not partisans... The SS Karl Gerlach probably saw some uniform, but it was the one of his allies...
Re: First the Koran Burnings, Now This; I Think We're Donesies in the 'Stan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
a completely inoffensive name
I don't even....
Naw man they'd have to send them to camp.
