Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Maybe I'm just a Machiavellian Bastard.

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It's part of the requirements for senior membership in a site called Total War.

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Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan

Not everyone in the world knows enough about British and U.S. history. What you said is unknown to most people. It's like how much you know about Portuguese and Brazilian history, especially during the early Cold War.

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The "Scandal" is mostly manufactured for the Americans though - and even if the general populace don't know, the pundits and "experts" should.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

It's part of the requirements for senior membership in a site called Total War.

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It's why I was never in politics - I'd like to keep some scraps of my soul.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The "Scandal" is mostly manufactured for the Americans though - and even if the general populace don't know, the pundits and "experts" should.

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Well it's a matter of which group we were talking about. I didn't say that nobody heard of the "scandal". There are a lot of conspiracy theories, some turn out to be true while others are false.

In the end the argument of the nay-sayers comes down to, "I wasn't impressed, he should die."

Everyone who shrugs off knowledge of any sort as "irrelevant" or "known to all but the naive" blatantly gives up the game and dishonestly portrays the situation by ignoring what really shows the truth, the process. If Manning was a nobody who showed nothing special why does the government want to kill him, if Snowden is a nobody who showed nothing special why does the government want to kill him so badly?

Don't tell me that whistleblowers only deserve protection if they can get "the good stuff" subject to your standards.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

In the end the argument of the nay-sayers comes down to, "I wasn't impressed, he should die."

Everyone who shrugs off knowledge of any sort as "irrelevant" or "known to all but the naive" blatantly gives up the game and dishonestly portrays the situation by ignoring what really shows the truth, the process. If Manning was a nobody who showed nothing special why does the government want to kill him, if Snowden is a nobody who showed nothing special why does the government want to kill him so badly?

Don't tell me that whistleblowers only deserve protection if they can get "the good stuff" subject to your standards.

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The difference between a Whistleblower and a Traitor is determined by whether the leak benefits the home nation or it's enemies.

Manning leaked confidential information that harmed the US, to no good purpose other than his personal view of right and wrong, or the satisfaction of his own ego. He also chose to do so anonymously via a website run by a probably rapist, instead of publicly going to the papers. I'm not defending what the US has done to the Afghans, hiding massacres, bungles helicopter strikes, but I see no point in releasing the information, other than to harm the US and make a diplomatic resolution harder. Leaking the diplomatic cables was even worse, nothing revealed other than salacious gossip and embarrassment caused to the US that makes the work of diplomats harder.

If Snowden had stopped at the revelation that the NSA was bugging US citizens without warrants and snooping their emails he'd be a whistleblower - but he had to release more, the moment he started exposing spying against foreign powers he became a traitor.

Everybody bugs everyone - the Brits bug the Americans and vice versa - 50 years ago it might have been true that the Aussies didn't bug the Brits, but today I expect they do - we have enough divergent interests that it seems only prudent. Face it, all the screaming the Turkey, the EU, whatever, is manufactured outrage for the benefit of the general public.

As to punishment - I'd say Manning was stupid, I'd give him life, parole after 15 years, Snowden should have known better - life, parole at the discretion of the State Department after perhaps 30 years. The fact that Snowden has fled to Russia and has been allowed to apply for asylum tell you who has antics have benefited.

As you are from the UK, you may not know that each and every person working for or with the government and ever elected official must swear an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

It is not sworn to the government or to the people, just to uphold and defend the Constitution.

That is where the loyalty lies.

Did he show Constitutional violations? Yes!

He has also gone beyond that in showing that the US is violating the rights of others but the moral imperative to speak out was followed.

Is the US Government following the Constitution? It would seem not.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

The difference between a Whistleblower and a Traitor is determined by whether the leak benefits the home nation or it's enemies.

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Which is is completely subjective and thus a useless definition to go by. You must know how silly it is to make the claim that as long as a whistleblower does not harm his country, he is ok. The whole point of a whistleblower is to discredit that which we previously held in esteem, whether it is due to exposed corruption, or illegal activity.

The Jungle might as well be a traitorous document, I wonder how well that socialist sympathizer managed to sabotage the US meat industry with his quite frankly unremarkable statements.

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Manning leaked confidential information that harmed the US, to no good purpose other than his personal view of right and wrong, or the satisfaction of his own ego. He also chose to do so anonymously via a website run by a probably rapist, instead of publicly going to the papers. I'm not defending what the US has done to the Afghans, hiding massacres, bungles helicopter strikes, but I see no point in releasing the information, other than to harm the US and make a diplomatic resolution harder. Leaking the diplomatic cables was even worse, nothing revealed other than salacious gossip and embarrassment caused to the US that makes the work of diplomats harder.

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Very, very disingenuous PVC. As Fisherking pointed out, we as individuals swear allegiance to the Constitution not to the abstract notion of US government as an institution. Following our own personal view of right and wrong is precisely the most justifiable rationale that a man could claim if he is arguing that that which he does is in reverence to the Constitution as Snowden has said.

Secondly, if you have nothing else to go on when it comes to criticizing Snowden other than to sneak in an attack on Assange and try to push a guilt by association, then it really shows the lack of substance behind the attacks on Snowden.

Thirdly, the papers have been a joke. You know this, I know this, everyone in the Western world is almost unanimous that traditional media has failed us. Utterly and completely. You ask whistleblowers to trust institutions that take orders from the people they are trying to expose? There is no difference between the media in Turkey and the media in the US. When the shit hits the fan, you turn into CNN and see twitter posts about pop stars, not anything resembling news.

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If Snowden had stopped at the revelation that the NSA was bugging US citizens without warrants and snooping their emails he'd be a whistleblower - but he had to release more, the moment he started exposing spying against foreign powers he became a traitor.

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And if the man had exposed the US attempts at infecting its own people, well string the man up on the gallows he is undermining our covert efforts to get a leg up on the enemy when it comes to biological warfare! It's all spin, and what a man considers to be protecting the human rights of all, that which the Constitution was inspired by, the government calls "aiding and abetting the enemy".

And the police shoot your dog because of its "aggressive character" when the SWAT team blows down your door by mistake. Very odd how a British national is the one who wants to wrap himself in the comfort of the US government half truths. Do you trust Obama to be the one spying on you more than Cameron?

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Everybody bugs everyone - the Brits bug the Americans and vice versa - 50 years ago it might have been true that the Aussies didn't bug the Brits, but today I expect they do - we have enough divergent interests that it seems only prudent. Face it, all the screaming the Turkey, the EU, whatever, is manufactured outrage for the benefit of the general public.

As to punishment - I'd say Manning was stupid, I'd give him life, parole after 15 years, Snowden should have known better - life, parole at the discretion of the State Department after perhaps 30 years. The fact that Snowden has fled to Russia and has been allowed to apply for asylum tell you who has antics have benefited.

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Oh we all do it man, it's no biggie. I cheated on her, she cheated on me, her new bf cheated on her with me. Lets face it, decency and privacy are gone, so you are just looking silly by asking for them to return. The modern man accepts his place as a possible suspect at all given times. This is the enlightened way really when you think about it. I am not even going to talk about how shallow such a judgement of Russia=bad man is.

You're equivocating - if Snowden had been exposing domestic police abuses, or medical experiments carried out on US citizens - again - that would be whistlblowing. The distinction is drawn when he steps outside the domestic sphere.

There's no equivocation here - at all - it is a fundamental principle. I'm not an expert on your Constitution, but I'm aware of no provision which protects foreign nationals on foreign soil.

It's rather telling no one will give him asylum

It's rather telling all we're seeing is a bunch of saber rattling

His newest statement is straight vomit and directly from Assanges mouth

As usual Phil is right

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

It's rather telling no one will give him asylum

It's rather telling all we're seeing is a bunch of saber rattling

His newest statement is straight vomit and directly from Assanges mouth

As usual Phil is right

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Which is scarier - this, or realising I read your posts?

:stare:

Seriously though - I applaud the exposure of the US Intelligence Services' pilfering of US Citizen emails, essentially the same as going to the Post Office and slitting envelops - I am ambivalent (from a US perspective) about the disclosure that this information was shared with GCHQ and vice-versa. As to the rest, leaking the fact that the US spies on other nations, including Allies, is traitorous and also not much of a revelation.

As a UK Citizen, I'm quite angry that GCHQ has been snooping my internet usage and emails, not especially worried personally, but it sets a poor precedent with regards to Civil Liberties in my country.

It was a fight, tooth and nail, to get the post protected. What we should be doing is organizing something like that for our e-transactions, because that's essentially what this is.

But no, everyone wants melodrama

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

It was a fight, tooth and nail, to get the post protected. What we should be doing is organizing something like that for our e-transactions, because that's essentially what this is.

But no, everyone wants melodrama

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Hard from a technical point of view - but from a legal point of view this should be simple. Email is like physical mail - end of.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

It was a fight, tooth and nail, to get the post protected. What we should be doing is organizing something like that for our e-transactions, because that's essentially what this is.

But no, everyone wants melodrama

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It's not melodrama, it's an attempt to create symbols for people to coalesce around. You don't just suddenly get millions of Americans to fight for electronic privacy unless you fire them up somehow. This cynicism chokes your ideas for organizing from the very start because when you try to denounce any one who doesn't do it "perfectly" and in a "non-traitorous" fashion, you are actually just supporting the status quo by promoting their efforts to make any whistleblower (good or bad) at all seem dangerous.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

It's not melodrama, it's an attempt to create symbols for people to coalesce around. You don't just suddenly get millions of Americans to fight for electronic privacy unless you fire them up somehow. This cynicism chokes your ideas for organizing from the very start because when you try to denounce any one who doesn't do it "perfectly" and in a "non-traitorous" fashion, you are actually just supporting the status quo by promoting their efforts to make any whistleblower (good or bad) at all seem dangerous.

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Maybe Snowden is a US patsy - releasing the Verizon files followed by more that discredits him as a traitor?

Is the CIA that cruel, or that good?

Fact is - if he had a political point he's buried it under his own idiot ego.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Maybe Snowden is a US patsy - releasing the Verizon files followed by more that discredits him as a traitor?

Is the CIA that cruel, or that good?

Fact is - if he had a political point he's buried it under his own idiot ego.

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Only if you treat the message and the man as exactly the same. We don't think less of "all men are created equal" despite the failures of the man who wrote it.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Only if you treat the message and the man as exactly the same. We don't think less of "all men are created equal" despite the failures of the man who wrote it.

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Oh - quite the opposite - I'll take the message gratefully, but the man who delivered it decided to dive into treason for his next trick - so lock him up and forget about him.

Have some pity for his abandoned girlfriend

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Oh - quite the opposite - I'll take the message gratefully, but the man who delivered it decided to dive into treason for his next trick - so lock him up and forget about him.

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I am sure many British living in the Isles thought the same about all the Founding Fathers.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

It's rather telling no one will give him asylum

It's rather telling all we're seeing is a bunch of saber rattling

His newest statement is straight vomit and directly from Assanges mouth

As usual Phil is right

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Indeed it, shows that all these despicable national leaders lack a spine and are in the pockets of the US, their sovereignty being about as useful as a banana that doesn't meet EU banana import standards.

It's just further proof that Europe's individual nation states are completely superfluous entities which have absolutely no weight on their own and can't stand up to anything. Obama calls Merkel a third-rate ally in front of the entire world and she still shies away from doing anything that could make him angry. As someone asked on Facebook: "Are third-rate allies legally required to oblige extradition treaties?"

As for Snowden, it was dumb not to accept Putin's offer. The European traitor states even denied the airplane of the Bolivian minister of foreign affairs the right to fly over their territory, forcing his machine to land in Austria over suspicions that Snowden might be on board.
How is that anything but trying to please their overlord Obama while their voters actually favor Snowden?

The only thing this does is help the Nazis because they're the only party in favor of full national sovereignty.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Europe's individual nation states have always been completely superfluous entities. Europe has always acted as a whole against the world in national affairs, despite itself. The two world wars were European civil wars that just happened to include the whole world because hey, colonialism.

You're all just lucky the Chinese decided to scrap that fleet.

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Let’s not start on this crap. Might does not make right. The government is sticking it to everyone. Obama is showing just how arrogant he can be and is openly antagonizing others.

I would say the US is trying for rogue state status under his watch.

I guess you really don't know European history?

There is also an investigation into whether the NSA may have been passing on highly technical data of European companies to US corporations. Be it the NSA as a whole or just an annalist on the take, or helping friends. It points up the dangers of these programs to everyone.

So GC yout text books:

WW II didn't include Japan vs USA

The Pacific wasn't colonized by Polynesians by sea

US never colonized any nations outside the Americas

US never had civil wars or interfered with indigenous populations.

If we can convince 1 man in a thousand to expose all of the secrets, it doesn't matter that 999 people are opaque-state sycophants. Information wants to be free and it will be. Freedom is akin to gravity.

Fight power for the sake of the struggle.

He's both.

Clearly a traitor to America as he's blabbing about their illegal activities.

Clearly a hero to those getting a "heads up" about what illegal activities America is up to.

The old Freedom Fighter / Terrorist situation.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I'm not starting on anything of the sort. I'm just saying the traditional perspective of what makes a distinct political entity in a global world is misleading. The decision to spread out on ships and conquer the world was a distinctly European one. The Chinese had the opportunity to do it over a hundred years earlier and made a choice not to, but Europeans like to pretend that it was always inevitable (in no small part because of the constant need to keep up with neighboring European "countries").

In a global context, Europeans shouldn't think of their tiny little insignificant countries as actually being countries. They're not, and never have been. The European ego is simultaneously what caused Europeans to decide they needed to take over the world, and also what keeps them thinking that they're all so different. :laugh4:

My point being, of course, that Europe is a distinct political entity. Greece? France? Germany? Belgium!? Not so much. Coming together under one government wouldn't be creating anything new, it would merely be acknowledging what has always been going on. How I got on to this topic, I forget.. probably just to irritate Europeans.

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"Being Norwegian is a way of being a European" is a quote from our foreign minister which pops up.

Anyway, a Norwegian organization has applied for asylum on behalf of Snowden(he can't do it himself as he is not on Norwegian soil). We had Trotskij before, this should be a walk in the park in comparison.


And considering the amazing speed of our beauraucrats, Snowden should have his application processed in a short 10-15 years.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Freedom is akin to cosmic psychic energy

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Indeed it, shows that all these despicable national leaders lack a spine and are in the pockets of the US, their sovereignty being about as useful as a banana that doesn't meet EU banana import standards.

It's just further proof that Europe's individual nation states are completely superfluous entities which have absolutely no weight on their own and can't stand up to anything. Obama calls Merkel a third-rate ally in front of the entire world and she still shies away from doing anything that could make him angry. As someone asked on Facebook: "Are third-rate allies legally required to oblige extradition treaties?"

As for Snowden, it was dumb not to accept Putin's offer. The European traitor states even denied the airplane of the Bolivian minister of foreign affairs the right to fly over their territory, forcing his machine to land in Austria over suspicions that Snowden might be on board.
How is that anything but trying to please their overlord Obama while their voters actually favor Snowden?

The only thing this does is help the Nazis because they're the only party in favor of full national sovereignty.

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Or maybe because Germany does the same thing and they don't want that spotlight.

Der Strudel has been pumping out puff pieces all week, nary a peep about Germany's own intelligence (armed and funded by the NSA). Oh well, you get caught, you get your nose rubbed in it.

Strike, you may not know it, as I very much doubt you speak German, but you did a little double entendre with that.

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nary a peep about Germany's own intelligence (armed and funded by the NSA). Oh well, you get caught, you get your nose rubbed in it.

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NARY A PEEP?!?!

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Europe's individual nation states have always been completely superfluous entities. Europe has always acted as a whole against the world in national affairs, despite itself. The two world wars were European civil wars that just happened to include the whole world because hey, colonialism.

You're all just lucky the Chinese decided to scrap that fleet.

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Not true - if Europe functioned even remotely as you describe, the Crusades would have been successful, we would have driven the Arabs back into Arabia. If Europe had been as you describe, there would have been no Dark Ages, no Renaissance, no 30 Years War, no Napoleonic Wars...