If you going to moderate Part 2

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]On the topic of bad language how many people here think it is a good idea to have a list of banned words added to the rules? That way it is clear to everyone precisely what is not allowed.

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I am rather skeptical to the feasibility of that. In the first place (as was already pointed out): which words would be included in this list?

Secondly you will get people arguing that, for example, Nazi isn't an insult but a technical term. OK, so here it is pretty clear, since Nazi is meant as an insult nine out of ten times and therefor everybody will who is called a Nazi will take it as an insult. But what about 'communist'? I don't mind being called a communist, but there are certain exponents of communism (e.g. Stalinism) with which I do not want to be associated.

And lastly, I am convinced people would just find other ways of insulting each other http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif .

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Ludens @ May 27 2004,19:48)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]On the topic of bad language how many people here think it is a good idea to have a list of banned words added to the rules? That way it is clear to everyone precisely what is not allowed.

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I am rather skeptical to the feasibility of that. In the first place (as was already pointed out): which words would be included in this list?

Secondly you will get people arguing that, for example, Nazi isn't an insult but a technical term. OK, so here it is pretty clear, since Nazi is meant as an insult nine out of ten times and therefor everybody will who is called a Nazi will take it as an insult. But what about 'communist'? I don't mind being called a communist, but there are certain exponents of communism (e.g. Stalinism) with which I do not want to be associated.

And lastly, I am convinced people would just find other ways of insulting each other http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif .

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The idea is more a list of swearwords, Nazi's would fall under a seperate category that wopuld have to be handled in the context of the post, like Elmo's example earlier.

A list of swearwords isn't as redundant as it might sound on first inspection. In a discussion I had earlier it becomae clear culture etc has a big impact on this, I thought 'bastard' was acceptable because where I live it has devolved into something as harmless as 'damn', the other person found bastard to be strong, but thought bloody was mild, to me it certainly is not.

Asking around would hopefully allow a list of the most common offensive swearwords to be assembled, and then those can be modded consistantly. Right now I'd let bastard go unless it was aimed at a person, but bloody would always be hit. The person I was talking to would operate in the reverse, making things inconsistant and unfair.

It wouldn't be easy to make this list, but it would be possible to put something together with the worst words if nothing else, and that is surely better than nothing.

I think Nazi is unacceptable, but Fascist is merely escribing a political philosophy.

I think the thing we most need to to in the tavern, is address the root causes of the problem. Namely-the increasing polarisation of the tavern into left and right. You can't say anything in the tavern without somebody quipping "you lefties/conservatives are all the same". The focus on peoples political alignment rather than their arguements is getting ridiculous, and is what's causing all of the hostility. Having the patrons pigeon-holed into one of two diametrically-opposed camps is not conducive to discussion.

I'm just happy that the frontroom seems to have been completely civil so far. Although this does beg the question, why do people get so angry every time politics is mentioned?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 27 2004,15:11)]I think Nazi is unacceptable, but Fascist is merely escribing a political philosophy.

I think the thing we most need to to in the tavern, is address the root causes of the problem. Namely-the increasing polarisation of the tavern into left and right. You can't say anything in the tavern without somebody quipping "you lefties/conservatives are all the same". The focus on peoples political alignment rather than their arguements is getting ridiculous, and is what's causing all of the hostility. Having the patrons pigeon-holed into one of two diametrically-opposed camps is not conducive to discussion.

I'm just happy that the frontroom seems to have been completely civil so far. Although this does beg the question, why do people get so angry every time politics is mentioned?

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I agree, strangely... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...gc-anxious.gif

Unfortunately, the polarization of political ideals/discourse here in the .org is indicative of the world politcal scene as a whole. It shouldn't be this way. Through the media and political parties, each side has decided that they cannot be seen to agree with the other, because that will be seen as a sign of weakness. Therefor, the two sides: (liberal and conservative) have taken opposite stances on every topic for discussion and turned the phrase into (liberal VS. conservative). There is no longer a middle ground for agreement. This in turn means that liberalism and conservatism in reality no longer represents anyone, except the extremists.

Still, I can already see some improvement in the moderating of even this thread. Sometimes it takes a heavy hand to set things right. The ones who complain the most of these actions, you will find, are the ones who think "rules" apply to other people, not them.

Hope all goes well.

PS. I also recommend Tosa giving all moderators powers to edit and delete posts in EVERY section of the forum. It speeds the moderating process up and allows more than a few moderators to catch things, and take action quickly, before the normal moderator for that forum can do so. Kind of a double check. Of course ettiquette is necessary for this to happen effectively. For instance: A few rules we try to follow at the .com forum are:

1. If a moderator has already edited or posted a warning in a specific thread, let him be the one to continue to do so. He has taken ownership of it. To do otherwise will seem like you are "ganging up" on a patron. This will also keep it from appearing that the original moderator is not up to the task. If you happen to see a problem in a thread which has been edited by another mod, tell him in the moderator forum, with a link to the thread.

2. If you take an action in a thread make sure you leave a signature so the other moderators will be aware that you have taken ownership of the thread. Helps with rule #1. Of course deleted threads would be impossible to leave a signature on, so post in the mod forum that you have deleted a specific thread and why.

3. Do not get into a prolonged public discussion with a patron over why you took the action you did. Be firm, do not try to be humorous, and make it perfectly clear that you are in control and will not discuss the matter further. If the patron persists in arguing in this thread. Delete his posts immediately. If he REALLY wants to discuss the issue and explain his side he can PM you at that point. Do not PM him nor ask him to PM you. If you do you will soon be flooded with PMs from every patron who has a complaint about you acting on something they posted.

4. Make sure you post in the moderator forum if you are unsure how to handle a problem post. This is also a good time to ask someone to step in and take an action, if you feel it would be improper or appear to be showing favoritism.

5. Make a list in the mod forum of topics to watch, with a link to each. Explain why you think it should be watched and let the other moderators know if they are free to take action in your stead.

6. Also make a list of patrons to watch. I don't agree with the "yellow card" system. It will bias your opinion of the person if you are constantly reminded they screwed up in another post. Listing the patrons in the mod forum serves as a reminder to watch for a patron, but you will find you only check it AFTER you see something out of line in a post, to see if this patron has been in trouble before. Being reminded BEFORE of a patron has a tendency to color your view of what you are reading.

7. Have fun. Do not spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find every problem or violation of the forum. Try to take action only when it appears a statement will cause friction with other patrons by using name-calling, extreme sarcasm intended to insult, or profanity.


Good luck fellow moderators. I know you are trying your best and will eventually find your own comfort zone and do a great job of keeping watch over the .org.

We should have a moderator forum. It sounds like a good idea. Hopefully, Soly can provide us with his XXX pics behind closed doors... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

But seriously, I think it should be thought about.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (frogbeastegg @ May 27 2004,10:42)]On the topic of bad language how many people here think it is a good idea to have a list of banned words added to the rules? That way it is clear to everyone precisely what is not allowed.

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I think that will still leave a lot of gray areas to be dealt with, and in turn could backfire and give ammo to the "I didn't do it" arguments. A stupid example would be "I just said you agree with Hitler, I didn't call you a nazi, and I didn't break any rules; look - here they are, and it doesn't say anywhere I cannot say that". Proscribing words out of context is not a good way to go, IMHO. I would rather trust the judgement of the person in charge of the forum we all attend out of our own free will, than any list which could lead into an even bigger quagmire, and add some negative conotations to boot.

The problem is, again IMHO, that people don't realise two things:
a)this is supposed to be a fun recreational activity; if what you read bothers you so much, first I shudder to think how you react to the real-life stress, and second why bother coming back for more?

b)you may have a strong opinion about something, but you are not forced to express it; some things you can say among your friends or family in a certain way, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate to say them like that (or at all) to a stranger in a public place; I myself often have a very venomous comment in mind when I read some of the posts, but I nevertheless choose to keep it to myself out of politeness and consideration, if not to the actual poster, then to the other people reading the forum; you don't have to say everything what you think exactly how you think it, nobody is forcing you to do so, and it's not like we all have a Tourette syndrome that we can't stop translating thoughts into words (I know this is not what Tourette is all about, but it's close).

When you combine a) and b), you end up being able to keep your own peace of mind, and it also enables you to preserve the peace of mind of other patrons. However, if somebody is posting on a forum just to piss other people off and make them miserable, I would say that this is beyond any help that the moderators can provide anyway.

Now, how do you explain that to your average poster who doesn't want to see it that way, I unfortunatelly don't know. Everybody has a button that when pressed can make him/her slide into offensive, but I don't get why it seems as if some people have this button permanently locked down, and to top that they have to let everybody know that they do.

I like the diversity of opinions, and I think that the views that, e.g., Redleg and squippy espouse are both important to keep it that way, but there is a proper time, place, and manner for everything.

Squippy

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I am please to see that some action has at last been on Dav'e hate-speech, although the mods declined to confirm to me that they were going to do so, after having stalled for some time.

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Pleased? You take pleasure in others 'misery'? For any person who's still puzzled about the mess that pops up in the forums, here's the answer. It's not a biased staff, it's not a lack of rules, some people love to get a rise out of each other and they don't step back when it escalates but demand a full compensation.

That might be a mighty fine hobby, these forums are not the place for it. Moderate yourself, you're not alone in this forum.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ May 27 2004,20:07)]...2) If that happened in the Monastery, why did he PM the Tavern mods?

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Although I'm not eligible to answer why Sinan did or did not do something, I should admit that I was wrong. It was the Monastry moderators that the PM was sent to. (Just checked the mods list.)

Anyway, thanks Tosa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/ht_bow.gif
_

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ May 28 2004,07:14)]1. If a moderator has already edited or posted a warning in a specific thread, let him be the one to continue to do so. He has taken ownership of it. To do otherwise will seem like you are "ganging up" on a patron. This will also keep it from appearing that the original moderator is not up to the task. If you happen to see a problem in a thread which has been edited by another mod, tell him in the moderator forum, with a link to the thread.

2. If you take an action in a thread make sure you leave a signature so the other moderators will be aware that you have taken ownership of the thread. Helps with rule #1. Of course deleted threads would be impossible to leave a signature on, so post in the mod forum that you have deleted a specific thread and why.

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I disagree with number 1.

a) It may become difficult to figure out who deleted a post.

b) It would also mean mods would have to mod every forum as it is they are just a patron in other forums and hence they can kick off their steel caps and just wear the fluffy bunny slippers.

2. Ownership would also imply being on call 24/7... cooperation is the key here to moderating which includes the patrons acting as moderators.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 27 2004,17:38)]We should have a moderator forum. It sounds like a good idea. Hopefully, Soly can provide us with his XXX pics behind closed doors... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

But seriously, I think it should be thought about.

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and... you know that it doesn't already exist?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ May 28 2004,15:30)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 27 2004,17:38)]We should have a moderator forum. It sounds like a good idea. Hopefully, Soly can provide us with his XXX pics behind closed doors... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

But seriously, I think it should be thought about.

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and... you know that it doesn't already exist?

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If it does, they haven't told me about it...

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 28 2004,11:50)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ May 28 2004,15:30)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 27 2004,17:38)]We should have a moderator forum. It sounds like a good idea. Hopefully, Soly can provide us with his XXX pics behind closed doors... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

But seriously, I think it should be thought about.

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and... you know that it doesn't already exist?

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If it does, they haven't told me about it...

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and why would they? You're just an AM croney http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Papewaio: You do not want moderators interfering in other mods posts if they have taken an action previously. And as for "24/7". Nobody is on 24/7 and that is an even BETTER reason to have a mod forum and post any actions taken.

Your #1-a: The way you keep track of who deleted a thread is in the private moderator forum, which only the moderators can see. Easy and it works well at the .com which gets way more traffic than here.

Your #1-b: Since moderators participate in other threads and since moderators also have a life outside the .org and take vacations, have work responsibilities and cannot be on 24/7; it is imperative to have every mod with powers to edit, delete, etc in every section of the forum.

Your #2. "Ownership" does not mean the moderator has to be around 24/7. It means that moderators should not interfere in a thread which has been acted upon by another, unless he has discussed this with the moderator who took action. If I was to edit posts, and warn patrons in a thread that they need to watch their language and get back on topic, I sure do not want another moderator to delete that post, but I WOULD want them to watch over it and let me know if something happens and ask permission to take an action, or if the problem needed immediate action, then to inform me after the action was taken and why. It is very easy to do this and it works well if you have a private mod forum. The .com forum is extremely busy and this is the way all the moderators keep up-to-date.

The secret is communication amongst the moderators. A private mod forum allows this to happen. Simple, easy, and decreases the likelihood that problems, that are occuring now, do not happen.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ May 28 2004,18:36)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 28 2004,11:50)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Teutonic Knight @ May 28 2004,15:30)]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 27 2004,17:38)]We should have a moderator forum. It sounds like a good idea. Hopefully, Soly can provide us with his XXX pics behind closed doors... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

But seriously, I think it should be thought about.

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and... you know that it doesn't already exist?

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If it does, they haven't told me about it...

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and why would they? You're just an AM croney http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

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Right, it's time for t3h bigg3ty ban...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

ROFL

oh...wait... you're not joking .....Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Let go of me Nooooooooooooooooooooo I'll get you for this

LOL

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ May 28 2004,18:13)]LOL

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^^^^I think that Elmo eloquently sums up the issue.^^^^

Some randoms thoughts from this thread.

It is very hard to mod the subtle stuff

People don't have a right to not be offended

People need to moderate themselves

Reasonable people can disagree on things

Accept the fact that others have different views

Be proud of your views, don't be threatened by other views

We don't need a list of banned words, or a list of folks on probation

No one changes their mind by being beaten into submission, but some wise people learn from others words and actions

Get a life, this got out of control for a while

Argue the point, not the person

Why are there Interstate Highways in Hawaii?

Exercise restraint and avoid threads that will stress you out, unless you make the commitment to stay in control

Why do you care what other people think, especially people that you have such low respect for?

Is anything better than chocolate?

and finally

Gah ichi Gah

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif

ichi

The solution with listing offensive material is not a valuable one; for the same reason, you will never find a law codex in the entire world that will list all the possible ways to murder another person (firearms, knives, poisoning, strangulating et cetera…). All the laws will condemn murder as an act and leave to the judge to review the specific circumstances and decide whether the murder itself has been of "lighter" or "heavier" nature; most popular examples come from USA and are being rated as murder of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree.

Now, the interpretation is the difficult part. Everyone knows what offensive or vulgar means (well, superficially, at least), yet sometimes people just simply can't interpret correctly whether a certain statement is that offensive or not.

Rules are hardly going to help here. Some people just need to start taking responsibility for their words and actions. Yes, I know, growing up is though, get over it.

ElmarkOFear has some very good ideas that should be worth considering.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]People need to moderate themselves

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Get a life, this got out of control for a while

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-glasses2.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Argue the point, not the person

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-thumbsup.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Why are there Interstate Highways in Hawaii?

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http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...gc-stunned.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...nquisitive.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...c-confused.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Is anything better than chocolate?

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Chocolate being served by/on a beautiful woman… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-blush.gif

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (ichi @ May 29 2004,01:02)]Why are there Interstate Highways in Hawaii?

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because hawaiins' dont want to feel left out, they want to feel they are part of the USA, in order to acomplish this, or rather an illusion thereof, they have interstate highways so they can pretend they can, if they drive far enough, actually manage to reach mainland usa - if you ask them why they never actually manage to get there they invariable respond
"Distracted by a beautiful woman/man/dude you should have seen the break - i had to stop and surf/huuuge pineapple going for a buck/macadamia's for a penny a pound"...
in short any number of things they consider unique to Hawaii and therefore those who do leave are mad for doing so...

incidently macadamia's are not native to hawaii - they were imported from australia...
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Nice summary ichi.

Thanks for the constructive input from your .com moderating experiences Elmo.

You know, I have not posted in this, so what the hell
I think if we mix in some right wing americans as mods, at least 1 per room thingy, it could be balenced out. All the mods are liberals, so a right wing point of view is dangerous to post because the libs can flame you, and get away over half the time We need some conservative mods
-Capo

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ May 29 2004,21:01)]You know, I have not posted in this, so what the hell
I think if we mix in some right wing americans as mods, at least 1 per room thingy, it could be balenced out. All the mods are liberals, so a right wing point of view is dangerous to post because the libs can flame you, and get away over half the time We need some conservative mods
-Capo

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well... at least you speak your mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Sorry.

This is not a liberal or a conservative forum, hence you need impartial mods.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 29 2004,22:38)]Sorry.

This is not a liberal or a conservative forum, hence you need impartial mods.

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hence the problem, the complaint, I believe, is that the mods are less than impartial...

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Sinan @ May 29 2004,22:38)
Sorry.

This is not a liberal or a conservative forum, hence you need impartial mods.

hence the problem, the complaint, I believe, is that the mods are less than impartial...

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I believe thats one of the reasons it was started. As they say there should not even be the hint of impropriety.

But the thing is, for impartial mods, they have to have no political opinion. If we can't get impartial mods, we need to have a mix of both sides to balence it out
-Capo

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Sinan @ May 30 2004,03:38)]Sorry.

This is not a liberal or a conservative forum, hence you need impartial mods.

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Gawain, your post attributes TKs remark to me.
Reposting, to make certain to avoid any misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Caporegime1984 @ May 30 2004,03:59)]But the thing is, for impartial mods, they have to have no political opinion. If we can't get impartial mods, we need to have a mix of both sides to balence it out
-Capo

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Please list the liberal mods by name.

IM not gonna label anyone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif Lets make it easy you name the right wing or impartial ones for me. Wait I can answer it for you all of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif I would like to hangout around here at least a bit longer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg.../gc-jester.gif