America's irreplaceable ally

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As mentioned before, Israel has killed more innocent Palestinians than Palestinians have killed innocent Israelis. IDF soldiers are fair game.

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You just dont get it. Among the Palestinian dead you will find a large proportion of combatants , in the case of the Israelis you will be hard pressed to find any.

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Why did they fire the rocket? Sometimes the reason is pretty specious. Something happens in Lebanon or the West bank or on the moon and a day later Hellfires are hitting an open market in Gaza. Sometimes, when you're mad, you hit what you can, not what you have to.

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So you admit the Israelis use it as a reprrisal for somethig the Palestinians do first?

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The problem begins with the brutal occupation of Palestine and ends with terrorism. Both are equally immoral.

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The problem began with the arab invasion of Israel. The current problems once more begin and end with terroism. How you fail to see that is beyond comprehension. No terroism no brutal Israelis.

The problem began with the arab invasion of Israel.
No , the problem predates the creation of the State of Israel .

The current problems once more begin and end with terroism.
The current problems are just a continuation of a long running problem that began with terrorism .

No terroism no brutal Israelis.
No brutal Israelis , no terrorism ...catch 22 ...so which way forward ?
No terrorism and no brutality .

Among the Palestinian dead you will find a large proportion of combatants , in the case of the Israelis you will be hard pressed to find any.
Care to post any figures to support that statement Gawain , you can find them at the IDF website . Oh but they will not support your claim . ~;)

Well i didnt see any figurs at the site. Maybe you could post a link. I did find this interesting though

http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER...//7//31537.jpg
Armed Palestinian boarding a UN ambulance. Picture by Channel 10

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Israel channel 10 aired yesterday Inon Maga'l item showing armed Palestinians use UNRWA ambulances to flee undercover.

Photographs taken at the Gaza Zeintun neighborhood about two weeks ago, on the same night the first APC was exploded, clearly show armed Palestinians boarding a UN-marked ambulance with a UN flag, and flee the scene.

The reporter stressed that this was not a Palestinian Red Cross ambulance, known to have transported armored Palestinians since the outbreak of events, but rather a supposedly neutral ambulance of the UN.

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Nice

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

]

Hell no Im not. You havent named 1 major base yet.

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Ok this is only ports and airbases (there's more bases).
Pakistan:
airfields used:
Shamsi
Dalbandin
Jacobabad
Pasni
Uzbekistan:
Airfields used:
Tuzel
Chirchik
Airbases:
Karshi-Kanabad (K2) Airbase
Tajikistan
Airfields used:
Dushanbe
Afghanistan
Airbases:
Khost
Bagram
Kandahar
Mazar-e-Sharif
Kyrgyzstan
Airbases:
Ganci (IAP Manas)
Oman
Airfields used:
Thumrait
Seeb
Al-Masanah
Masirah
Ports:
Port Salalah
Mina Qabus
Saudi-Arabia
Airfields used:
Taif
King Faisal Air Base
Riyadh
King Abdul Aziz International Airport
King Khalid Air Base
King Abdul Aziz Air Base
Ports:
Yanbu' Al Bahr
King Abdul-Aziz Naval Base
Jeddah
Dammam
Kuwait
Airbases:
Ali Al Salem
Ahmed Al Jaber
Camp Udairi
Camp Doha
Airfield used:
Kuwait International Airport
Ports:
Kuwait Navy Base
Camp Doha (it's both)
Camp Arifjan
UAE (missed this one)
Airbases:
Al Dhafra
Airfield used:
Fujairah International Airport
Ports:
Port Rashid
Mina Zayed
Mina Jebel Ali
Fujairah
Quatar
Airfields used:
Al Udeid Air Base
Ports:
Mesaieed
Umm Said
Doha
Bahrain
Airfields used:
Muharraq
Shaikh Isa
Ports:
Manama
Mina Sulman
Egypt
Airfields used:
Cairo West Air Base
Beni Suef
Ports:
Port of Suez
Port Said
Hurghada
Turkey
Airbases:
Incirlik
Izmir
Link
The link didn't have any info for Turkey. The airbase classification is from Tribesman's link.

Want me to list the name on every person in these bases? ~;)

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

] You notice its a two part statement. You also havent given me any major port facility. Also you havent shown that any of these countries would let us step up our use of any of these facilities Turkey again is the best of these nations and they REFUSED to let us use our own bases there.

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How should I prove that? As Pakistan and Uzbekistan is allowing thier bases to be used even now, they are better allies than Turkey, according to what you say here. So unless anyone signed something saying that US can do anything they want to inside that country, it fall into individual cases. So I can only do massive speculation.

Ok I should have said Australia was a true ally, not just maybe a true ally, my mistake- but Canada? Yea right.

Beirut, your country is a true ally of Britain, not the US. Simply because we were on the same side in WW2 doesnt mean it was for any reason except a mutual goal. Hell, Stalin was on our side. Canada undermined America during Vietnam and has had an anti-US stance for a long time(except when it benefits your economy to agree with us). Do you think the fact that you allowed American planes to land after 9/11 makes us allies? Id call that common courtesy.

Now mind you Im not bashing Canada for not being a good or real ally of America. Every nation does whats in its best interest. I just dont like this smile at our face/talk behind our back type of "friendship".

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Ok I should have said Australia was a true ally, not just maybe a true ally, my mistake- but Canada? Yea right.

Beirut, your country is a true ally of Britain, not the US. Simply because we were on the same side in WW2 doesnt mean it was for any reason except a mutual goal. Hell, Stalin was on our side. Canada undermined America during Vietnam and has had an anti-US stance for a long time(except when it benefits your economy to agree with us). Do you think the fact that you allowed American planes to land after 9/11 makes us allies? Id call that common courtesy.

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I guess Korea, NORAD, NATO, Gulf War I and Afghanistan don't mean anything then? We're not allies, just a couple of countries that happen to live next to each other?

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Yes! It is one of the few countries outside of NATO that can be relied upon.

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We are talking about Turkey right? Ive never seen them as particularly reliable allies - but maybe im wrong. Ill take your word for it as you seem to know more than me about it. :bow:

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History did not start on September 11, 2001 and it isn't going to end there. You seem to think that your true friends and allies were revealed by your by who would support you in the Iraq adventure. Your friends and allies supported you in your declared aim to destroy terrorism. Iraq had nothing to do with that and was in fact a major setback in the war on terror.

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Not only did they not support america - many of our "friends" cough *the french* cough actively campaigned against the war and tried to subvert america to protect their own interests and connections with a dictator.

The rhetoric and actions of many of these countries didnt signify a disagreement between allies, but open hostility toward America.

Im not bashing them for this attitude, they can say and do whatever they want, but they shouldnt still claim to be "allies".

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And as for taking your money, well France, Germany, and Canada don't take your money, and Turkey didn't take the bribe you offered them did they? And yet these are the nations you are so upset at. You don't want allies, you want yes men and spearcarriers! I can tell you right now that those sorts tend to vanish when the real trouble starts. Iraq wasn't real trouble by any stretch of the imagination and to use it as a benchmark for who your friends are is an exercise in foolishness.

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Hehe, France and Germany were all too happy to take American money after the World Wars. I dont buy into that "principled stance" argument. Many of our former freinds had deep connections to Iraq. They chose their own interests over the transatlantic alliance, so be it.

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France fought side by side with you in the first gulf war. How exactly is that a stab in the back? Germany, Turkey and Canada sent soldiers to Afghanistan when you asked for them. Oh yes the betrayals keep coming fast and furious don't they? Canada accepted all flights carrying Americans into Canada after the 911 incident knowing full well that the reason you didn't want them was because they might crash into a skyscraper. Do you really think some terrorist nutjob wouldn't have crashed his plane into a Canadian skyscraper instead? We certainly had no such illusions, and we took them anyway! And by the way. Those were your citizens and by implication your responsibility, not ours. But when Americans were in trouble we took action just like we did during the Iranian hostage crisis. What treacherous villains we are!

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Oh please, it was well established that those planes didnt have terrorists in them. Dont try and act like we passed off terrorists riddon planes onto Canada. Your acceptance, while a nice thing to do, was no heroic act.

Whats really scary is how much pride you take in it! Its as if you are saying "If we werent such good friends, we may not have let them land." ~:eek:

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I guess Korea, NORAD, NATO, Gulf War I and Afghanistan don't mean anything then? We're not allies, just a couple of countries that happen to live next to each other?

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For the last 60 odd years America and Britain have shared basically the same strategic goals. If and when that situation ends, for example if Britain sides with France/Germany, we both know where Canada's loyalties would be.

Again, for the record, Im not bashing Canada! Every country should choose the path thats best for them. Im just trying to be realistic.

Well i didnt see any figurs at the site.
Really , well perhaps you can try the Knessett website , or the Israeli ministry of foriegn affairs website , they all publish them , I only suggested the IDF one as it has very easy to view graphics on attacks and casualties so you cannot get confused by the long lists that the other sites contain .Plus they have a big sign on the homepage saying Terrorism and another saying Statistics , they work like magic if you click on them .
Because as you correctly stated in the case of the Israelis you will be hard pressed to find any. but you forgot to add UNLESS YOU LOOK AT THE FIGURES PUBLISHED IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT .
You might be interested to note that they also give breakdowns of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian security forces , Palestinian Security forces killed by Israeli civilians, Palestinian civilians killed by Isreali civilians , Palestinian securiy forces killed by Israeli security forces and Israeli security forces killed by Palestinian security forces .
So lots of information there ... but try and remember what you read ~;)
Easy Graphics

For the last 60 odd years America and Britain have shared basically the same strategic goals.
(cough)Suez(cough)

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Again, for the record, Im not bashing Canada! Every country should choose the path thats best for them. Im just trying to be realistic.

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I'm not criticizing you for that. I'm just questioning the statement that the Canada is not a 'real' ally of the USA

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

For the last 60 odd years America and Britain have shared basically the same strategic goals. If and when that situation ends, for example if Britain sides with France/Germany, we both know where Canada's loyalties would be.

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I'm not so sure. Anglos and Francophones are a smaller and smaller percentage of the Canadian population every day, and there are many Americans living in Canada. Anyway, one can be a real ally of the USA even if one has other allies. Australia is still an ally of Britain, for example, even though it has been supporting the USA. Would you say Australia is no longer an ally of Britain?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Ok I should have said Australia was a true ally, not just maybe a true ally, my mistake- but Canada? Yea right.

Beirut, your country is a true ally of Britain, not the US. Simply because we were on the same side in WW2 doesnt mean it was for any reason except a mutual goal. Hell, Stalin was on our side. Canada undermined America during Vietnam and has had an anti-US stance for a long time(except when it benefits your economy to agree with us). Do you think the fact that you allowed American planes to land after 9/11 makes us allies? Id call that common courtesy.

Now mind you Im not bashing Canada for not being a good or real ally of America. Every nation does whats in its best interest. I just dont like this smile at our face/talk behind our back type of "friendship".

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Your beginning to reach there PanzerJager

When I was in the Army we not only trained with the Canadian Army - but shared officers with each other. Just like we do with Australia, Germany, Britian, and yes even France.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Ok I should have said Australia was a true ally, not just maybe a true ally, my mistake- but Canada? Yea right.

Beirut, your country is a true ally of Britain, not the US. Simply because we were on the same side in WW2 doesnt mean it was for any reason except a mutual goal. Hell, Stalin was on our side. Canada undermined America during Vietnam and has had an anti-US stance for a long time(except when it benefits your economy to agree with us). Do you think the fact that you allowed American planes to land after 9/11 makes us allies? Id call that common courtesy.

Now mind you Im not bashing Canada for not being a good or real ally of America. Every nation does whats in its best interest. I just dont like this smile at our face/talk behind our back type of "friendship".

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Well, all I can say is that you (singular) obviously hate us. That's clear. But this concept of yours that we are not true friends is beyond comprehension. I think you have put yourself (singular) so far into a corner of isolationism that you wouldn't know a real friend if he showed up with an armload of Christmas presents and a dozen women.

But if that's the way you feel, fine. We'll just stay friends with the other 299,999,999 Americans.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER...//7//31537.jpg
Armed Palestinian boarding a UN ambulance. Picture by Channel 10

Nice

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Israeli assassins in New Zealand with forged Canadian passports.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...sass/NZass.bmp

Nicer.

Whoa, you think because I had a somewhat humorous(to me) sig picture that involved Canada I hate the country - nothing could be farther from the truth.

If I had to hate Canada for their attitude toward America Id have to hate Germany as well, and many other countries. Political differences are never a reason for hate in my book.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Whoa, you think because I had a somewhat humorous(to me) sig picture that involved Canada I hate the country - nothing could be farther from the truth.

If I had to hate Canada for their attitude toward America Id have to hate Germany as well, and many other countries. Political differences are never a reason for hate in my book.

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No, I thought your sig was great. We are well able to laugh at ourselves. It's one of our hobbies.

But your very strong beliefs that our two countries have only a superficial connection and friendship, to me it truly astounding. I am very vocal about what I do not like that the US does. I do not like a great deal of what the US does. And there is not one country in the world I would rise up on my feet and help defend (truly defend, not this Iraq and Vietnam stuff) faster then the US. You may rest assured that many millions of my fellow Canadians have the exact same sentiments.

[QUOTE=Beirut]
I am sure that's not necessary. Getting out of Palestine and stopping the tortures and killings and bulldozings and theft of land and water would be more then enough thank you. ~;)




you must be joking ha ? if the jews get out of "palestine" (just a roman name as you know in contrass with the hebrew name from the biblical times - the land of israel) where there are going to live ha (some 5,000,000) ? in canada ? nop , canada is the home of the native americans .... sorry... the home of the canadians ha ? so maybe in the USA ? no no there are some 5,000,000 jews there already so maybe in germany ? no , the jews have a bad experience there (one of my bigest understatements) maybe in france ? no they have some 10,000,000 arabs there and it is going to be the same as in "palestine" , so maybe in china ? no no there is some 1,200,000,000 people there , so maybe in egypt ? no the hebrews just left it with moses hhhmmmm maybe afghanistan ? nop there is the problem of bin (eben) laden , so , let me think.... ah yes .. in the mediterranean ? yes yes that's it !!!!!!!!!!! exactly as the arab plan !!! throw the jews to the sea !!! well beirut , i shall recommends you to the nobel peace price committee ............

"UN SHMUEN" (david ben gurion 1889 - 1973 , israel first PM and the man who learned ancient greek in 3 weeks)
~:cheers: again

[QUOTE=caesar44]

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I am sure that's not necessary. Getting out of Palestine and stopping the tortures and killings and bulldozings and theft of land and water would be more then enough thank you. ~;)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beirut

you must be joking ha ? if the jews get out of "palestine" (just a roman name as you know in contrass with the hebrew name from the biblical times - the land of israel) where there are going to live ha (some 5,000,000) ?
so , let me think.... ah yes .. in the mediterranean ? yes yes that's it !!!!!!!!!!! exactly as the arab plan !!! throw the jews to the sea !!! well beirut , i shall recommends you to the nobel peace price committee ............

"UN SHMUEN" (david ben gurion 1889 - 1973 , israel first PM and the man who learned ancient greek in 3 weeks)
~:cheers: again

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Um, well if they get out of Palestine they can always live in Israel. :dizzy2:

Palestine is the West bank and Gaza. You know, where all the Palestinians are.

Decaf my friend. Decaf.

And thanks for the beer!

oh you really do not know what are you talking about ha ? sad thing...
"palestine" my dear beirut is one geographic territory , from the litani river to eilat on the red sea and judea and samaria ("palestine" for you) is in the middle of it !!!!!!! please read some books before talking about my land
you really don't know what the british mandate was ? it was all over "palestine" including judea and samaria , there was never a "palestinian" entity , you must know that ha ? now israel is willing to compromise and give these "territoties" to the "palestinians" just to stop the killing
it is that simple , but alas , sharon just want's to kill "palestinians" childrens for breakfast , you should look at him , about 150 kl' ~:handball:

I am late but I want to intervene in the actual discussion, even (or because) it deviated from the original aim.

English Assassin, the Israelis didn’t evict their neighbours. Their neighbours refused to recognised their property and decided to take it back without lawyer. The Arabs started the war immediately after the Israeli Declaration of Independence and they clearly intend to kill all the Jews… They lost the war… All the wars… However, the refusal to deal with Palestinian Authority under the pretext they were (are) terrorists is a little bit weak considering that the Haganah, Irgun and Stern were Israeli Terrorist Groups (against the Brits and Arabs).
On the other hand, the Arabs can’t ignore the fact that to go back to the Ante Bellum situation isn’t really realistic. Israel won’t give up the Golan (water). The 6 Days War started because the Syrians wanted to deny water to Israel.

Redleg, Israel attacked as much the Arab countries as the Arabs Countries attacked Israel. On this aspect, they are equal.
And when the Irgoun (I think) destroy the Hotel King David, full of British Officers, it was also terrorism… But I agree with you on the terrorist aspect of the Palestinian Resistance. I remember Munich, Lodds and Antebe, and other. BUT, I disagree on the actual Israeli politic based on humiliation of the Palestinian…
Redleg, did I train with you? Yes, we did manoeuvres with our US allies in Germany (it was a MP unit, don’t remember which one).

Beirut, unfortunately for your analyse, the US was not the first to support Israel, but USSR and France. If you have a careful look at the Israeli material during Suez and 6 Days War, you will notice that the modern tanks and planes (for the times) are French: AMX 13, Mirages, Ouragans (Dassault Aircrafts) etc… Or perhaps France is also secretly manipulated and controlled by the Jews… If it is the case, you will a problem in explaining the slight misunderstanding between France and the US today.

Don Corleone, I find your charge against France and Turkey quiet funny…. If you want to speak about allies and who betrayed who, we can speak about US training the future Vietcong against the French during the 1st Vietnam War (1945 to 1951, start of Korean War), the US (and USSR) ultimatum against the French, the British and…. Israelis during the Suez crisis…. When France had the terrorist attack in Paris and other towns, the US refused to extradite the suspects who took refuge under the pretext that the French justice wasn’t impartial, couldn’t be trusted… What about the hundred of French citizens exploded over the Chadian desert … You are the revisionist, you are re-writing history…

PanzerJager, read comment above comments: in Korean, French and Turks (among others) sent troops against a clear aggression… And the significant financial persuasion? Except after the WW2, the French paid the bills for the WW1 until 1940 (reason why Versailles treaty was so hard on Germany)… About Turkey, they accepted medium range nuclear missile on their territory (the same that Kennedy had to withdraw in exchange of the Cuban Missile). If that is not to be an ally, what is it for you?

Gawain of Orkeny, I worked 10 years in Humanitarian Help, in 3 wars… It is the first time I see a UN ambulance. A sticker is a sticker, not a proof of UN involvement… My own vehicle was stolen and used by fighters. I don’t thing they took the time to remove the logo, and I don’t thing my organisation was part in the conflict…

Caesar44, there isn’t 10,000,000 Arabs in France. Stop reading the extreme right French newspapers… French population is around 60,000,000 (including all ethnic backgrounds) and, by the way, has the biggest Jewish population in Europe…

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Originally Posted by caesar44

oh you really do not know what are you talking about ha ? sad thing...
"palestine" my dear beirut is one geographic territory , from the litani river to eilat on the red sea and judea and samaria ("palestine" for you) is in the middle of it !!!!!!! please read some books before talking about my land
you really don't know what the british mandate was ? it was all over "palestine" including judea and samaria , there was never a "palestinian" entity , you must know that ha ? now israel is willing to compromise and give these "territoties" to the "palestinians" just to stop the killing
it is that simple , but alas , sharon just want's to kill "palestinians" childrens for breakfast , you should look at him , about 150 kl' ~:handball:

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My dearest sir, I must say I enjoy your posts greatly. Between the utter lack of punctuation, the non-existent grammar, the complete abuse of the English language, and the non-adherence to any form of conventional sentence structure, added to this the great gusto with which you write, I think your posts are just wonderful. Picasso with a pen. ~:)

Your land? Do you live there? or does the whole place really belong to you?

Also, and it pains me to have to point this out, once the Palestinian people gain their independence from Israel, where they live, the Palestinians, will - be - called - wait for it - Palestine. it is this "geographic territory" that the Israelis must get out of.

I didn't know Sharon liked to eat babies. I thought he was into bagels and eggs, just like me.

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I didn't know Sharon liked to eat babies. I thought he was into bagels and eggs, just like me.

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Nope.. the man cant function without at least two babies-over-easy before he starts his day.

dear beirut
do you want to talk hebrew ? if you have not noticed english is not my language , wow such an arrogance !!
if a tourist will come to israel and talk with me in hebrew as bad as he can , the last thing i will do is to make remarks on his language
never mind , we the jews follow our tradition and forgive a man's mistakes
i hope you are learning some hebrew words just to bring smiles on the faces of your jewish friends ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)

ah yes i am living "there" ups i just saw a plane attacking some innocents "palestinians" , now i am feeling good !!!
i hope that you can distinguish sarcasm...




grammar shramar - "people tends to relate to meaningless things when they have no real argument" (caesar 44 , 2005)

One could argue that grammar is important since it aids in conveing the message...
:thinking2:

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Originally Posted by caesar44

dear beirut
do you want to talk hebrew ? if you have not noticed english is not my language , wow such an arrogance !!

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Not arrogance at all, since I didn't know where you were from, I thought you might just be one more person who gets lazy when writing on the net. My apologies therefore. :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caesar44

we the jews follow our tradition and forgive a man's mistakes

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No doubt. That would be in keeping with the translation of the word charity into Hebrew which would be "duty" in English.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caesar44

i hope you are learning some hebrew words just to bring smiles on the faces of your jewish friends ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)

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Hell, most of them can't speak hebrew either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caesar44

ah yes i am living "there" ups i just saw a plane attacking some innocents "palestinians" ,

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Well damnit man, tell them it to stop!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caesar44

grammar shramar - "people tends to relate to meaningless things when they have no real argument" (caesar 44 , 2005)

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And yet you apply correct grammatical English idioms while dismissing grammar and follow it with a quote. Interesting.

[QUOTE=Beirut]

No doubt. That would be in keeping with the translation of the word charity into Hebrew which would be "duty" in English.

What ? ~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused:

Charity in hebrew is "tsedaka" , from the hebrew word "tsedek" , and "tsedek" means justice !



"Let the gentile speak's as he wish , what is important is what the jews do" (popular jew saying when prosecuted , that is -always)
:book:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowhobbit

One could argue that grammar is important since it aids in conveing the message...
:thinking2:

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so you did not understood my message ..... damn ~;)

History did not start on September 11, 2001 and it isn't going to end there. You seem to think that your true friends and allies were revealed by your by who would support you in the Iraq adventure. Your friends and allies supported you in your declared aim to destroy terrorism. Iraq had nothing to do with that and was in fact a major setback in the war on terror.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Not only did they not support america - many of our "friends" cough *the french* cough actively campaigned against the war and tried to subvert america to protect their own interests and connections with a dictator.

The rhetoric and actions of many of these countries didnt signify a disagreement between allies, but open hostility toward America.

Im not bashing them for this attitude, they can say and do whatever they want, but they shouldnt still claim to be "allies".

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What do you think an ally is? Ohio? Do you think they are supposed to do exactly what you want them to do, when you want it? Is that what you call friendship? I ask because you will never find it any more than Soviet Russia did. They held that point of view and the allies they had were made so by the barrel of a gun. There is no other way to find that sort of ally.

They don't claim to be allies they simply are your allies. And the open hostility was toward the Bush Junior administration not Americans are your nation. BTW your own government and Haliburton have more than a few connections themselves to the "dictator" you refer to.

You talk about "Old Europe" and how feeble and ineffectual they are, and then are enraged when it turns out they can still fix your little red wagon. You are belligerent and abusive towards them are then shocked and surprised when they give you a return poke in the eye, by thwarting you at the UN.

You know it's interesting the difference between Bush senior and Bush junior. They both had a war against Iraq to fight and an international coalition to build. There the similarities end.

Bush Senior;
"THE first President Bush has told his son that hopes of peace in the Middle East would be ruined if a war with Iraq were not backed by international unity."

"He also urged the President to resist his tendency to bear grudges, advising his son to bridge the rift between the United States, France and Germany.

“You’ve got to reach out to the other person. You’ve got to convince them that long-term friendship should trump short-term adversity,” he said."

Bush Junior;
"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists."

The Donald Rumsfeld comments on "Old Europe"

Rumsfeld lumping Germany in with pariah states like Cuba and Libya. And this just before a visit to Germany

Belgium is ridiculed because it blocks NATO equipment being shipped to Turkey before NATO has given its approval.

American vilification of the Europeans and the French in particular.

Meanwhile the American Congress decides to take stern action against French Toast and French Fries by renaming them Freedom Toast and Freedom Fries. That a honourable institution should have ever seen it's halls trivialized by such utter nonsense, is an insult to the far better men who once graced it's halls.

The incompetence of the Bush Junior administration is manifest.

Bush Senior knew about consensus building and he built alliances when no one thought he could. Ronald Reagan was also adept at this. Bush Junior destroys them with an almost willful glee, and is bewildered when he's almost alone at the moment of decision. Bush Junior's big achievement; A sizable minority of Americans and the populace of every nation on the planet Earth was opposed to the war in Iraq. That is first rank incompetence, no question about it. Compare that to the father!

George Bush Junior is a badly educated fool with as questionable a military record as Bill Clinton. His decision to not show up for National Guard duty is not really an option he is going to allow for the guardsmen being sent to Iraq is it?

Clinton at least was so self involved he was hardly dangerous, besides his wife had brains and she could rein him in if he got out of hand. George Bush Junior IMO is one of the worst American Presidents in history.

Bush Senior; TBM Avenger pilot with VT-51, he flew 58 combat missions off the decks of the USS San Jancinto. Took part in the "Marianas Turkey Shoot," Shot down over Chi-Chi-Jima, in the Bonin Islands until rescued by the submarine USS Finback. Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, amidst other decorations.

I seem to have a lot more respect for the Presidency of the United States than you do, as this man is simply not worthy of the office. Men like George Bush Senior and Ronald Reagan (IMO one of the best you ever had) are worthy and to have that buffoon sit in their place is a disgrace.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Hehe, France and Germany were all too happy to take American money after the World Wars. I dont buy into that "principled stance" argument. Many of our former freinds had deep connections to Iraq. They chose their own interests over the transatlantic alliance, so be it.

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And you, the Americans were all too happy to take the money from desperate nations fighting the Nazi's before the war.The list of those who were there facing the Nazi threat includes Canadians, Australians, Czechs, FRENCHMEN, Belgians, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians, Poles, Yugoslavs, Greeks, South Africans, Indians, Chinese, and New Zealanders. You sat by while others did the dying and raked in the cash from arms and munitions sales. Real nice! A fine example of sterling character if ever I have seen one.

And while WE were fighting and dying in battle against the Germans you were spending OUR money getting ready for the upcoming battles, upcoming for you that is. You see, you knew perfectly well that a war was coming with Germany and you still didn't do what was right. Many others did and they didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming into making a moral choice.

Pearl harbour is what finally got you involved and you then proceeded to talk about the 'Great Moral Crusade' you had embarked on. The need at the time was too desperate for us to point out the obvious. And you have been marching off ever since going on and on, about how you 'rescued Europe' and about how ungrateful they are.

And in fact the Americans never declared war on Germany. Even after the pearl harbour attack, they didn't. It was Germany that declared war on them! You didn't even break off diplomatic relations with them. This while the death squads were busy at work eliminating jews, Gypsies, and slavs as fast as they could. You, like Stalins communist regime, had to have the Germans make the first move because you didn't care to step up when it counted. Unlike the French, British, Canadians, Australians and others who did step up when Poland was attacked. France lost 120,000 dead and 200,000 wounded in 6 weeks. Where were you? France helped you in your revolutionary war. They were your allies in World War One, so where were these 'noble' Americans when it mattered? Oh yeah. Counting your Francs, Pounds and Dollars.

So if you want to begin a conversation about shitty allies, start at home. I am sure the Poles could tell you a few stories about the wisdom of trusting Americans (Yalta), as could the South Vietnamese. The ex-Shah of Iran probably has a few stories himself. Leaving aside whether or not you should have given your word to some of these folks, is the outstanding fact that you broke your word to them. Give me a list of French betrayals and compare it to your own and then talk to me about honour!

You as a nation are hardly in a position to talk about moral purpose, true allies and trust. You don't have the credentials.

And to be honest neither do we, or the Europeans. Their failure to act when they should have, does not give them, or us such credentials either. Bosnia and Kosovo, and Rwanda are examples of our failures. We are, none of us, perfect.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Oh please, it was well established that those planes didnt have terrorists in them. Dont try and act like we passed off terrorists riddon planes onto Canada. Your acceptance, while a nice thing to do, was no heroic act.

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If that was the case Panzerjager then why didn't you take them? If there was no danger what the heck were all those Americans doing here? Your entire national airspace was shut down for a reason, and that reason is that your government had no idea if there were more suicide planes out there or not. Your government was in hiding, in an at the time undisclosed location because they feared exactly that. Are you saying you believe this was some form of elaborate prank on the part of the American government?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Whats really scary is how much pride you take in it! Its as if you are saying "If we werent such good friends, we may not have let them land." ~:eek:

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No, in fact we would have let them land regardless, as we have let other flights land that the American government has concerns about since the 911 incident.And yes I do take pride in helping our American friends because it was what we should have done.

You may not see Canada and these other nations as allies and friends but we see America as a friend and ally. If ever a threat materialized to the United States, we and the others, France included, would go to the mat for you. If you see us as disposable allies of convenience, that is to your shame, but if the day comes when you need us, you will find out how wrong you are!

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What do you think an ally is? Ohio?

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An ally is a nation that doesnt actively work against America on the global stage and run elections based on anti-american rhetoric.

You would think the European nations would be in full support of removing a vicious dictator - especially since all they had to do was approve of it, no troops or anything.

But no, not only did they not even tacitly approve of removing a dictator, they actively worked to keep him in power. As a former German im ashamed that my old country hasnt learned anything. :no:

I wont even adress all that Bush-bashing. Its tired and old. If the guy is such a bad leader, why did he get elected again?

The funny thing is - the same stuff was said about Reagan. He was dumb, a cowboy, blah blah blah.

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And you, the Americans were all too happy to take the money from desperate nations fighting the Nazi's before the war.

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LoL - do you not realize how hypocrytical you are being? You bash America for going in and taking out a dictator who attacked his neighbors, now you bash America for not going in and attacking a dictator who hadnt done anything to us! In some people's eyes America is just bad - all the time. Welcome to the Blame America First club, enjoy your stay.. :dizzy2:

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You as a nation are hardly in a position to talk about moral purpose, true allies and trust. You don't have the credentials.

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Ohh now your just trying to earn brownie points!

The difference is that these days America is the one taking down tyranical governments and Europe is the one fighting to keep them in place.

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If that was the case Panzerjager then why didn't you take them? If there was no danger what the heck were all those Americans doing here? Your entire national airspace was shut down for a reason, and that reason is that your government had no idea if there were more suicide planes out there or not. Your government was in hiding, in an at the time undisclosed location because they feared exactly that. Are you saying you believe this was some form of elaborate prank on the part of the American government?

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The airports were closed so no terrorists could board anymore aircraft. But I dont want to push this point. It was a good thing you did - and we all apreciate it!

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You may not see Canada and these other nations as allies and friends but we see America as a friend and ally. If ever a threat materialized to the United States, we and the others, France included, would go to the mat for you. If you see us as disposable allies of convenience, that is to your shame, but if the day comes when you need us, you will find out how wrong you are!

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Yea right. Its great that you feel that way but I doubt a majority of your countrymen or your government do. I will be shortly posting a new thread about how much our allies hate us. Look for it soon.

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Originally Posted by caesar44

"Let the gentile speak's as he wish , what is important is what the jews do" (popular jew saying when prosecuted , that is -always)
:book:

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I always enjoy racially motivated sayings. South Africa had many saying like that.