I don't think we should include Monks on the battlefield... Come on, it's not historical!!!
Monasteries, Hermitages and other religious buildings will surely be included. ~:)
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I don't think we should include Monks on the battlefield... Come on, it's not historical!!!
Monasteries, Hermitages and other religious buildings will surely be included. ~:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
Yes ,yes! i didnt mean on battlefield.
Although there were priests,who followed the army on campaign,and even praying before the charge.
Why don't you make the Patriach a title that can be given to anyone of your family members (works like a retinue or ancilliary). That way, the Patriarch is in the game and a member of your faction. The title can give him a plus 5 in influence or something.
AHHHHHHHH, Discussion about something historical- The Patriarch
Actually it should be Patriarchs-Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Byzantium, and somewhere else! Read about it!
I like it. Lively discussion folks! Great.
Dear Edyz,
Where is BTW's imperium forum for my historical input?
ie. how do I navigate there?
Thank you, sir! No more posting from me here, I just wanted to stress this actual, historical point.
P.S. I've been thinking about buying some byzantine secular & religious music to implement in this mod! Cool?
~:cool:
@Evil Ned
No, we can't do that. It won't be historical
@hellas
Religious music.... I don't think so. It would be too boring....~:handball:
Here's the link to the Imperium forum:
http://s10.invisionfree.com/Imperium_Total_War
Go to Byzantium TW forum, just slide down. ~:)
Cheers everybody ~:cheers:
Why wouldn't it be historical? You have one character who is a patriach and he is obviously an underling to the emperor. Should the emperor become displeased with him, he can easily replace him with someone else. And the Patriach WAS a title carried by many men.
I think it would be very historical, actually.
To call Patriarchs underlings of Emperors is just simple generalising it to the point of unbelievability.
True, the Patriarchs weren't as powerful as the Pope's but they were still powerful. Very few Patriarchs were directly placed by Emperors, most of the time they wer4e the perogative of the church.
In Byzantine history, Patriarchs gave the Emperors headaches when secular and religious interests clashed. This represents how strong a Patriarch could impose his personality when his church's prestige and power had to be upheld. Examples were Michael Cerularius, Photius and Polyeuctus.
To solve the issue of the Antiochean, Jerusalemite, Alexandrian, Constantinopolitan Patriarchs why not make 4 Patriarchs with their own respective "city" designators. eg. "Patriarch of Antioch". It is up to the player to create and train one Patriarch for each of the 4 Patriarchates instead of being stupid and creating a whole bunch of them.
Possible solution:
Make Patriarchs out of spy units so they can install themselves in friendly and enemy cities. Their presence can cause unrest in enemy cities if they represent Christians in Muslim and Pagan cities.
In addition, like spies they can get kicked out. Well, despite all this fallacy about Muslim tolerance Christian Patriarchs did experience the thin end of the rod when things went badly against Muslim armies on the Byzantine frontiers.
Make Patriarchs out of diplomat units. Patriarchs can and plausibly did serve the role as interceders and intermediaries between states and as representatives of Christians.
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Interesting proposal Kataphraktoi. ~:)
Now, what do you think of our screenshots?! Are they good units?!
huh? what screenies?
on the org or twcenter??
Byzantium had an interesting department for intelligience gathering.
If I recall there was an "Office of Barbarians".
IN this mod, you might decide to make another spy unit and mod his skin to be that of a court official depending on what faction he is spying against. Historians have alluded to Byzantium's use of spies by installing them in enemy courts.
Examples:
A spy dressed as an Abbasid court official and placed in the Abbasid capital
A spy dressed as a Bulgarian court official and placed in the Bulgarian capital
Here;s another thing that rattled in my head today.
Is it possible to position forts with miitary units in the text files in the RTW: BI directory. It would be interesting to set up Byzantine fortifications in mountain passes and river crossings by the time you start the campaign in the first year. It could apply for Byzantium's enemies.
Eg. Tripoli was well fortified, but so were Emesa, Raphanea and Shaizar in the nearby regions. And since u cant make provinces for each important fortified place, you might was well place forts there with troops there.
Here's another stupid idea.
Some vices and virtues are acquired by what generals. Eg. recruiting mercenaries gives a general a bonus when leading mercenaries.
Byzantium conferred titles and in fact sold titles. Is it possible to create agent units that confer titles with vices/virtues? The role of the agent is not important, but rather its role as a giver/presenter of the title.
If you wanted to confer a Patrician title on a general, you "train" this conferring agent and then attach him to the general just like spies that merge with the general's figure on the campaign map.
Some titles were purely honorary, others however had an annual stipend that came with the title. Suppose you wanted to confer a title of Patrician to "increase" loyality of an exceptionally dangerous general with low loyalty you train the unit at a cost of 45000 denarii. Why?
a) 45000 represents the annual stipend a general would recieve in his lifetime until he dies (at most a general lives for around 30-40 years so at best, he gets 1000 a year for 40 years which is roughly 40000 denarii. Consider it an advanced lump sum payment of stipends!
b) so people won't go overboard and train so many conferers of titles!
c) represents the historically accurate cost of conferring titles which can be bought and have annual stipends from the court attached to it which of course makes it expensive but effective if used well.
Now, of course, this can be applied to other kinds of titles for other factions.
Eg. even after the Nicaeans conquered Constantinople, there was a titular title that Latins stilled used that designated a Latin as Emperor of Constantinople. A latin faction could a conferrer of the title to give to their faction leader.
This can expand to religious roles of the Patriarch where their lifetime salary is cost of training the conferrer of the title.
Ok, enough of my iconoclastic ramblings.
Screenies are nice, wish I had time to learn how to skin and mod. If I could, I'd shotgun the modelling of John Tzimicies golden Immortal Tagmata units.
:hide:
I think I can succesfully add you to the BTW team. You came up with excellent gameplay ideas. ~:cheers:
You can learn to skin or model by visiting the Scriptorium. ~:)
I don't mind being dropping a few ideas, I love Byzantium but have rarely anytime to dabble in modding. IN addition, I don't have all the software...until I go to asia...hehehehe.
Besides, I got exams and then Im going overseas.
Ok. Heres another idea that knocked around my head at uni.
At John Tzimices death in 976, there is no suggestion that the Immmortals were immediately disbanded. BUt the silence of historians does suggest that thw Immortals eventually were disbanded or simply grew too old (after all u don't expect 30 yr olds in 976 to fight when theyire 80 yrs old in 1025 do ya? hahaha).
An Immortals Tagmata unit could be placed in the capital in 976, however, they can't be retrained if they're decimated. In addition, new units cannot be trainied either, Basically, if u get them wiped out, they're gone forever. But you get a least a unit from the start of the campaign.
This kinda solves tricky issues of Tagmata units that don't last beyond a single ruler's reign.
Here's an idea I got while showering...don't ask why it happened...call it serendipity.
There were variations of Varangian Guards in Byzantine service - this affects their arms/armour/appearance:
Varangian Guard version A:Newly arrived Varangian, retains original arms and armour which includes iron helmet(with nasal guard), mail shirt, axe and sword and spear. Wears a mixture of Slav and Turkic clothing. Shield is rectangular or round.
Varangian Guard version B: Been in the service a few years now. With access to imperial arsenal, Varangian wears a mail shirt down to the knees and elbows. Has a iron helmet (with or without nasal guard) and an open aventail or complete wraparound aventail. Also has splint greaces and vambraces. Carries sword, long axe or spear.Shield by this period is of the kite-shielded kind but the Skuta can still be used.
Varangian Guard version C: Been in the service long enough to speak Greek and possibly adopt the Christian faith. His armour may resemble that of version B but in general, his armour is completely Byzantinised. It is reflected in his lamellar cuirass to elbows and knees (like the Klibanophori) over a padded coat or a padded coat quilted with mail. His long axe may be worn out or replcaed by a Byzantine custom manufacture. In addition he could be equipped with the falx-like Rhompaia described as having a blade as long as the handle oftened carried by Byzantine guardsmen. A sword and spear is an option. Helmet has either open aventail or wraparound aventail. Shield is either kite-shaped or a round Skuta.
On the issue of Kataphraktoi/Klibanophori. I haven't read all the stuff yet, but this my interpretation anyway.
Tagmatic Klibanophori: Why only Tagmatic? The expense of equipping one made sense to restrict it to elite soldiers of the capital. Iin addition, Tagmata were also stationed in the capital and in the provinces as well, unlike the previous system of only stationing them in the capital. So they could be raised from the Themes without being "Thematic" soldiers. Primarily melee units designed close combat, not for charging. Mace and Kontos main weapons. Bows are for lighter armoured Klibs or other light horse archer cavalrymen in the wedge formation.
Tagmatic Kataphraktoi: Belonged to one of the permanent Tagmatas or periodic Tagmatas (like the Immortals). Generally, they were better equipped heavy cavalry with the predominant lamellar over mail protection. Padded coating could also be worn underneath. Higher pay, higher morale and separated them from Thematic Kataphratkoi. Can be doubly armed, but they are not the composite lancer/archer Kataphraktoi of earlier times anymore. They are strictly either archers or lancers - Leo's Taktika specifies this as does Maurice who showed his preference for either bow or lance.
Thematic Kataphraktoi: Most likely from the magnate clans of Anatolia who formed the civil and military aristocracy of the region. Being aristocrats, they had the ability to purchase good quality equipment just like the Tagmatic Kataphraktoi (if not better than government issue). Difference is pay and morale. Weapons are like the Tags. Leo describes "first class" Thematic cavalry as "Kataphraktoi".
Thematic cavalry (don't know Greek name): Most likely spear/sword/shield armed cavalrymen. Wealthier soldiers could afford lamellar cuirasses.
Second class cavalrymen were probably the Trapezitois or lighter armoured version of the waelthier ones.
When I get time, I;ll learn to mod and start churning out some units. Who knows, I might do the Georgian thing and post numerous threads on Georgia's army. ~:joker:
hmmm. Are you guys gonna create Dzekone's units?
These guys are poor thematic soldiers who can't afford equipment or can't fulfill their military service as specified. Basically, they're just poor! No wonder why they get the nickname "cattle-thiefs". So what do these poor blighters do? They sign up for garrison duty ~D Everyone's happy!!! ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:
"dzekone" ??? Whats this ???? ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
Where u read it? the word doesnt seem to be greek at all.
We plan on including the 4 Tagmata schools.
The problem is, we have difficulties in establishing, because everyone comes with solid info, and it's hard to decide.
As for the Immortals, we might do it. ~D
We have 2 types of Varangians anyways....
Dzekones?! Then what are Evzones?!
Oh, don't do Georgia, or I'm gonna have you reported for spamming. ~D
I think I mean Tzakones. I can't quite remember the Greek name, but this might be it. Basically they're thematic soldiers who too poor to be equipped so they sign up for garrisoning duties. Considering the professionalisation of the army around 976 and the decreasing importance of thematic soldiers..plus the increasing size of the empire, this would seem plausible.
One thing about mods is that there is always a plethora of units you add to a faction. What a nightmare!!!
The Tzakones were used as guards at several places and most of them were recruited in Morea(Peloponesos).They also served as marines.
Even now there are people in Peloponesos,Greece who are called Tzakones and speak a Greek dialect derived not from the Hellinistic Koine(from which the official Greek are derived) but from a Doric local dialect.
ok, its pretty clear I don't have the exact name. But there was an actual category of thematic soldiers who were garrison fodder.
Ok, no Georgia spamming, how about Mangoup spamming? Yes, Mangoup, that little breakaway state in the Crimea when Constantinople fell. Mangoup is so small it was only by chance that I came across this little breakaway crumb of a state on the internet.
MANGOUP POWAH!!!
But in all seriousness, this mod is humming quite nicely. The Cuman/Mongol Heavy Cav looked top class and those Matzoukions! Man, they're sure to leave a birthmark on ya!!!.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA
Well,its Tsakones or Tzakones then ~:)
It is also said that they were of slavic origin.
I think they lived only on mountain Taygetos,besides the "Melingi" tribe.
U mean that "tzakones" isnt a name of a tribe ? And were they used so wide?
If you guys want I can create some sharp signatures, in greek.
oh, definalty go for. you have our blessing ~D
How do you make their byte size small. I notice that the current byzantium ones are over 20 kb, while yours is really good quality and it's only 3 kb.
It's not necessary what size. Just do it good. ~D
Excellent guys!!! Thanks. Our Evzones are the Tzakones. Thank God we found out who these guys were..... ~:cheers:
hoggy made the blue lotus one, so im not really sure how he did it..... im guessing its just the file format.
It's not the file format. I'm mad at myself, I made a really good one and tehn I deleted it because it was like 30kb. Ok so how do I do it?
https://img419.imageshack.us/img419/...orocopy5ys.gif
Here's one that I like the colours of. It's not even close to being as good as the others though so hold your breath.
And another:
https://img122.imageshack.us/img122/...311copy2xf.gif
Cute. But it's Byzantium.
Hmm, do you guys know the exact name in Greece of Byzantium?! ~:cheers:
Βυζαντινή αυτοκρατορία, or Ανατολική ρωμαϊκή αυτοκρατορία
The second is the most accurate.
Byzantium sounds wrong to me.
And in Latin?!We need in latin, cause nobody would like it in actual Greek....