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~:) 2 is the one. Steppe has been attacked by our planes. So they know that we have seen them. If they want to surprise us they have to attack. Now that the gate to Kursk is open we should advance with weak forces. They will be strong enough. This will also provoke the Steppe. When they try to flank our spearhead the strong divisions can attack their flank. They will be done when Model breakes through! That's it ~:cheers:
#4
What happened to this thread?....
I think we were stuck because there was three different opinions what to do.Now that you decided it,i think Kraxis can continue. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
4. Kraxis, let's get this show on the road...
Ah. That makes sense. tyQuote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
Actually I was waiting for people to come back. It seemed to have lost interest in people, thus I too lost a bit interest. It is not so fun to do this for the sake of three guys. ~:cool:
I prefer that people answer, even if they can't impact the outcome. I might get ideas for some of the plotline, or some interesting injection. So if you want to say something, please do. Half of it is anyway to see how you guys react to the chapter and to each other.
Boiled down to the most basic: Like all authors I like attention. ~D
Btw, in case of a tie it has been the first poster that gets his way.
So you mean you do it because you are a bit vain and sado ~;)All right! I'll soon be back with more questions!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
KRAXIS I NEED MY FIX!
umm, sorry
How strong are the forces Model is facing?
What are the Partisans behind our front doing?
Kraxis....
PLEASE POST NOW!!!!!!!
Relax guys... I'm playing BI... But I haven't forgotten you.
The partisans are less organized than in the real offensive, they didn't have the time to coordinate the big operations. But they are doing what they can to disrupt your lines. But that is far behind the front, and not something you are supposed to take care of, or even worr about.
Model is facing the Central Front's 2nd Tank Army and the 13th Army. They are strong and that is why he has not been able to get a breakthrough. But at the moment it is believed that reserves at sent to halt your attack rather than contain Model with certainty.
BI? In this context it means Manstein and Barb Invasion, I guess ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Well, Kraxis, there may be more interest in this thread than you realize. I've followed it but haven't posted, and there are probably more people like me. It's very interesting, but one reason I haven't offered my own input is that I'm not very well versed in WWII grand strategy. I've tried out some of the Close Combat games, but that's tactics and is very different.
Also, sometimes I have a hard time keeping a clear idea in my mind of where units and locations are. In the current scenario, I can't remember if Kursk is to the north while the Steppe is to the east, or if it's the other way around. So I'd be more likely than not to steer the campaign off-course.
Although, the regular posters here seem to have gone a bit awry in the past couple of chapters. After first losing the LAH as an effective fighting force, and then losing the vital initiative, Manstein is on the verge of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
I agree, however, with those who have said it would be wise to focus on destroying the Russian forces before trying to take Kursk. What is Kursk anyway, but one city? No single city could possibly be the key to victory in this war - even if it were Stalingrad, Leningrad, or Moscow. First priority should be given to destroying the Russian armed forces, as in any war. Once that's achieved, cities and lands can be taken at will. It's just that it would probably have been better to attack the Steppe with decisive force before it was organized than to turn a defend against it, allowing it to completely form. Every delay is costly.
Kursk holds a critical railway junction that will allow lateral transport down the front. Btw, after Kursk, launch another attack towards Tula to retake what was gained in the Rzhev offensive.
Kursk means nothing. Tank operations like Manstein and Guderian want them do not aim the conquest of single towns. They aim the destruction of the enemy's armies. Towns will then be yours anyway. That is a different view than Hitler's though.
In our game the target is to encircle the forces that are still westwards of Kursk. If I am right, there should be two fronts: the CENTRAL FRONT and the VORONEZH FRONT. If we manage to encircle them and cut off their connection to the eastern armies the third front (STEPPE FRONT) will have to attack us and we can destroy them too. So the target of this operation is the destruction of three Soviet fronts with 2,000 to 4,000 tanksand maybe a miliion red army soldiers.
Kraxis, does my picture fit to our intelligence reports? :book:
P.S.: Commodus is right. There are more than 1,700 views on your story. So there is a high interest. (Even though most of them are my views ~;) )
P.P.S: Kraxis: Just read that every SS formation had its own Flak unit (unlike similar Wehrmachts-units.) So I think it is quite unlikely that Manstein took their own FLAK away from the Leibstandarte.
Kraxis,
this is killing me! :hanged: How can you stop right in the middle of our attack?:charge:
I agree,give us more.Pleaaseee?~:grouphug:
Franconius that is a good picture, but don't expect a million enemies taken out. In total there is about a million Russian troops, but that includes those on the outside. The number of tanks is quite substantial, true, but we are early in the year.
The SS had their own units of AA? Hmm... well it doesn't really change the situation that happened. There was AA present, but most of the inherent AA had moved out early if you remember (Kurt Meyer complained of that).
Kempf's Deathride
The lack of progress and of contact with the enemy is problematic to you. Hoth is fuming at sitting still, and even Hitler and Guderian has called to ask what is going on. Though Guderian understood your situation he was very much on the side of Hoth, and Hitler was on the verge of a hysterical rage, he demanded further aggressive actions.
To soothe everyone and your own doubts as to what is out there, you call up Kempf: "Kempf, can you send the 3rd Panzer Corps eastwards towards the ominous 'Steppe'?"
"What do you want? My forces can' defeat an enemy of that size..."
"I don't want you to, I just want to know what is out there."
"And you are willing to sacrifice my armoured components?"
"Come on... What am I supposed to do? Somethign has to be done."
"Yeah yeah... We will roll in a few hours."
The advance of 3rd Panzer Corps is swift and rapid, the entire front seems abandoned. Only a few AT ambushes are discovered and some recon forces are brushed aside. Kempf makes sure his forces aren't advanced apart, so the advance itself is a bit slower than expected, but the Corps is a coherent and strong formation still.
5km from the Prokhorovka railroad the Corps makes contact with some light armour formations, T-70s. In a general Russian way they do not give way until mostly destroyed, their infantry breaks and rushes to the rear as the tanks fall back, giving them cover. It is a disciplined withdrawal.
The tanks of 7th Panzer Division tries to take advantage of the withdrawal and rushes after the Russians, but just as the first tanks clear a small crest they halt. The radio chatter increases to a continuous yell as more and more tank commanders blurt out surprises and warnings. They have stumbled into a massive Russian tankforce, several hundred tanks await them one kilometer away, and a furious figth ensues. The 7th Panzers retreat to the crest again and try to hold the Russians but numbers are too great and they fall back.
Within the hour the entire Corps is involved in the fight, artillery and airforces strikes hard, but it seems the Russians were less prepared than the initial contact indicated.
The few prisoners taken during the engagement with the light tanks makes it clear who you are dealing with. They all say the same, they are part of 5th Guards Tanks Army of the Steppe Front. Their haughty and confident posture is vastly different from the usual inevitable broken looks of the Russian prisoners.
All through the engagement Hoth almost begs to be allowed to attack, but you know he will never reach the battle before darkness, you do however advance slowly towards the east to get closer.
During the day Totenkopf also locks heads with the 31st Tank Corps, though neither side tries to advance on its enemy.
And finally, aireal recon indicates that the Russian forces at the head of the bulge are beginning to pack up and move eastwards. It is the beginning of a withdrawal.
Model's advance today was again slow, but faster than yesterday, it seems his tanks have finally broken the back of their opponents, it helped a great deal that the ridge of hills had been taken early and his tanks could now roam on flat plains where the superior gunnery and tactics could inflict staggering losses on the Russians.
Trouble is brewing, but you don't know if you can spare enough to deal with it all.
1) Unleash Hoth towards the east, let him have everything but Totenkopf and LAH, these two will then guards against 31st Tank Corps.
2) Deal with both 31st Tank army and 5th Guards Tanks Army. Totenkopf and Das Reich will encircle 31st while the rest will strike east fast and hard to relieve 3rd Panzer Corps. This does not involve any complicated maneuvering of your forces.
3) Retreat 3rd Panzer Corps to the front again. 5th Guards Tanks Army will follow it and fall into the trap where you can destroy them as a force of maneuver. But who knows, they might not follow 3rd Panzer Corps.
4) 3rd Panzer has occupied 5th Guards Tanks Army for now. They won't be able to strike at you, you have free reign to advance on Kursk. You might be able to close the gap with Model and both deal with 5th GT Army when it fianlly comes. Sadly this migth cost you 3rd Panzer Corps.
Number 2.We are back in business again.:bow:
Yes, 2 is the one!
We are in business, again!
:curtain:
Thank you, Kraxis!
#2, and try to get reinforcements for LAH while you're at it.
THANK YOU KRAXIS!!!
2 is the way to go, right now, before the reds get away.
2. Deal with the annoyance that is the 31st Russian tank division and in the same time rescue the 3rd Panzer Corps, this way your forces' attention will be undivided. Kursk can wait. If the Steppe army is destroyed, then Russia is down.
Kraxis,the title of the last chapter is really scarying.~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
By the way, we should replace Kempf. We cannot use a tank commander who is scared to attack enemy forces. He did not even know their size.:no:
Well, option 2 looks like the consensus, but I think I would have chosen option 1. Here's my ignorant analysis:
The general situation: the Russians in the bulge are now attempting to escape (our earlier hesitation having allowed this), so it's important to close the gap quickly. The Russian forces have suffered severe losses, and my guess is that the Steppe is here mainly to cover their retreat. Our objective should be to destroy the Steppe first, then link up with Model in Kursk, cutting off the Russian retreat.
Now for the individual options:
1. This gives us the maximum amount of force to fight the Steppe as quickly as possible. The 31st may cause some trouble, but Totenkopf and the weakened LAH should be able to at least delay it long enough.
2. This is my second-favorite option. It's strong and aggressive, but it weakens the forces sent to fight the Steppe and doesn't make use of the maneuvering abilities at which our forces are so adept. If that battle turns into a bloody stalemate, all will be lost. The Russians can afford it; we can't.
3. If, as I deem, the Steppe is mainly here to cover the Russian retreat, I doubt the Steppe will follow. We've had too much delay as it is; we can't afford more. This is probably the worst option.
4. This is a tricky one, as I like the idea of combining forces with Model for stronger, more unified operations. However, we may not be able to afford the sacrifice of 3rd Panzer. If Kempf is overrun quickly, the Steppe will be able to threaten our advance more than we think, and we may have to turn and face it. Let's get our priorities straight: first destroy the Steppe, then advance to Kursk.
In general, the last few decisions have gone awry, but I can understand why. It seems clear now that the right choices would have involved bold attacks to the east/north, even without knowing the strength of enemy forces. However, people were understandably loth to do this, as it's a tremendous risk - instead, they chose to bide their time and find out what the enemy possessed before committing full forces.
BTW, doesn't it violate some principle of Sun Tzu to fight the enemy when you don't know what they have? Come on, Kraxis, we're a bunch of TW gamers here - what do you expect us to choose?
Kommodus, excellent analysis. However I'd rather sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack me!
Kraxis, do you have a new award? What is it for? Normally you only get it after a successful battle ~;)
Haha... No, no new award. Check it up it is rather old actually. And I'm a little sad that my 2002 HOF award isn't shown, but what the heck. So I haven't gained a star... It is just an old Trait that has become more visible.
Well done Kommodus.
While Sun Tzu says you should know your enemy he also says you should attack him when unprepared. So it was a situation where people had to guage the situation...
Btw, a Death Ride isn't always a physical one. It can just be one where the results could end up deadly. Think of the German battlecruisers' Death Ride at Jutland, not a single ship was lost.
The Visage of 'The Steppe'
That 31st Tank Corps is simply too much for you to bear. "Wipe it out!" You bark at Hoth. "Send Das Reich to help Totenkopf. They must attack pre-dawn and encircle it."
Hoth smiles weakly but gets on it. Meanwhile you keep an eye on the progress in the night. You shold be able to hit the Russians in the morning. But you feel rather neutered. With only GD, 11th Panzer, Kampfgrupper Heidekamp and Kampgruppe Student (though Student is no longer in charge) as serious armoured formations supported by the weakly armoured 3rd Panzer and the weakened LAH, 332nd and 167th, but at least 255th is fairly strong still in StuGs.
It is problematic to say the least. While 3rd Panzer Corps was nowhere near as strong as your 2nd SS Panzer Corps it is still very strong and it is being pushed hard, even now in the night. The forces at your disposal might not be enough... But it needs to be done, Kempf is in trouble.
The line is staggered by all the odd formations and groups, you deside to clean it up by incorporating Kampfgruppe Student into LAH. That should give it a strong punch, meanwhile you have made sure that many of the tankcrews without tanks have been issued with captured T-34s from the various forces and in particular the 2nd GT Corps. It has been hard to coordinate the ammunition and fuel (since it is diesel which German tanks don't use) but at least you now have a division sized kampfgruppe in LAH, though it still lacks artillery and trucks. You let the infantry piggyback on the tanks and all kinds of vehicles. Thus you let LAH lead the attack. The T-34s with infantry should look rather Russian and thus very confusing for the 5th GT Army.
Finally you can see light on the eastern horizon, hundred of planes once again fly towards their targets. This time the battleground in front of the 3rd Panzer Corp. Already fighters are locking horns, the occational bright burning plane or explosion disrupts the beautiful morning. You shake your head at the insanity, then walk inside as your artillery opens up with all it's fury, answered in kind by Russian artillery.
You are brought out of your little trance by a call, its Kempf.
"Herr Fieldmarshall. The Russian attacks are intensifying... I doubt I can hang on much longer. Losses have been heavy. Several smaller units have been cut off. Tanks dwindling fast... I'm having serious trouble keeping the Corps together, the Russians are attacking down our middle."
"Relax! It won't be much longer. Keep falling back, never present an opening and you are safe. The Russians are never good at attacking without their artillery."
Some confidence bounces back into Kempf an he signs off. Meanwhile the thunder of artillery rumbles on as some T-34s pass your HQ. The atack has started.
Das Reich, rested and strong sweeps with great speed around the side of 31st Tank Corps. Surprisingly it responds by turning to face this threat and a furious tankbattle begins. Totenkopf, more tired and worn out acts a bit slower but it quickly moves up anyway. The turned Russian Corps begins to fall apart with the threat in their rear, and the battle winds down as the troops begin a headlong retreat. Though harried by the armoured forces there was to be no encirclement, but at least the armoured components are either destroyed or dispersed.
The main attack lead by the newly envigourated LAH push right into the 5th GT Army. Initial results are very positive. Russian tanks responds to the T-34s with great confusion and they manage to advance deep and fast. But within two hours they are bogged down in battle, the ruse discovered. Right on their heels is Kampfgruppe Heidekamp, and it quickly takes over the battle with the Russian tanks.
Unfortunately 3rd Panzer runs into a prepared position of AT-guns and its limited armoured component suffer serious losses, though an infantry attack dislodges the guns almost right away.
GD advances alongth northern edge of LAH and Kampgruppe Heidekamp. It comes upon a great open shallow valley. At the far end Russian tanks are deploying to attack. The advance halts with contact and GD is pushed back. 11th Panzer quickly rushes to the aid of GD, while Heidekamp lets LAH deal with its local enemies and rushes into the battle too.
Since the moisture of the previous days have evaporated the valley soon becomes a dustbowl. Hundred of tanks advance on each other, fight a swirling melee.
You sit on a hill overlooking the battle, but you can't do anything to help your boys. They have to win this one themselves. And you don't even know what is going on as the explosions and smokeclouds are nameless. At least the attacks on 3rd Panzer Corps have weakened greatly and the infantry divisions have made contact with it.
The battle drags on, hour after hour the tanks battle each other. You fianlly get a few reports from the divisional commanders. Apparently your tanks are doing very well, but losses are to use the words of a most calm orderly "quite unpleasant." To your great dismay you learn that Heidekamp's Tiger was knocked out and he is now unaccounted for. A young Gruppeführer has taken over command of the Kampfgruppe.
You can't stand it any more... The tank battle is simply too much. You fly at the phone and get hold of Kempf.
"ATTACK!!!!"
"But we are seriously weakened... I doubt we can advance far."
"That is not the point! We need to save our tanks, you will get full artillery and aireal support as well as LAH and my infantry. Now ATTACK!!!! For the sake of Germany do it!"
"Yes Herr Fieldmarshall." You sense a bit of venom in that confimation but you think let him hate me as long as he obeys.
Within minutes the artillery bellows again, this time into the woods occupied by Russian infantry and AT-guns. Soon afterwards you can make out the shapes of StuGs and even T-34s advancing on the woods with small shapes in their wake. A Russian barrage hits the advancing troops but they keep moving at an even higher pace. The Russian AT-guns open up and soon a full and furious battle between the guns and the armoured vehicles develops. Under this fire the infantry engages the Russian infantry. The horrors of battle come crashing down on you. As you look you see entire platoons cut down machineguns, men flung high into the air by explosions, but the determination of the attackers carry the day, and the defences are broken. The sounds of battle continue in the woods but they are moving closer and closer towards the area where the Russians are attacking from. Apparently there isn't any stopping Kempf now.
You listen in on the radiochatter, and the battle in valley is indeed overwhelming. Guns firing, men screming as their tanks are hit, commands and orders flying. "Kleine, watch out, T-34 on your flank!" "Cover me, my tracks are gone!" "BAIL OUT!!!!" But soon the chatter becomes more usual "T-34 300 meters, engage." "T-70s retreating, should we follow?" "Where is that ammo?!" "Follow only to edge of valley..." The battle is winding down and the Russians are conseeding you the field.
As night falls you call for all attacks to halt, unless they are on the verge of winning a strong position.
You look at the battlefield... hundreds of tanks are left. Some burning, some smoking, others seemingly undamaged. Some are even entangled.
As night falls you get reports of the battles. Kempf and your infantry managed to drive hard into the stagingareas, where they were thrown again by the retreating tanks. Apparently the Russians are more than just intact as a fighting force, they are ready to fight if need be. The losses to he infantry have been quite heavy, though after the advacne over the open terrain losses declined sharply.
The losses in the valley have been staggering. Some companies were wiped out entirely, other are down to one or two tanks, but worst of all is the fact that Kampfgruppe Heidekamp, which covered the weaker Panzer IVs by staying in front suffered serious losses. Of their total 60% have been knocked out and another 30% damaged. It is estimated that no less than 12 Tigers and 17 Panther are lost entirely. At best it can only return to some 40 combatready heavy tanks, the Panzer IIIs of the formation managed to survive better by keeping close to the bigger tanks and picking off flankers.
Losses among the crews have been devastating. Few have so far made it to the rear, though it is suspected that there are still many hiding under or near knocked out tanks.
At least you can console yourself with the fact that the Russians threw everything at you, and couldn't stop you. Their losses are estimated in several hundred, but so far nothing is certain.
For once Hoth is not pacing the room or arguing with you. His usually strong and vibrant eyes are dead and cold. "That's it Erich... I doubt we can move on now."
Just then a report from Model arrives. He is advancing with great speed, today he finally defeated the last Russian mobile forces opposing him. He will keep advancing through the night
Hoth has nothing to say, he just sulks. Kempf is busing tidying up his forces. You have to make up you mind yourself.
1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.
2) Stay put with your current forces and keep an eye on the Steppe Front, while Das Reich and Totenkopf advances towards the east of Kursk. You are certain that his i enough to contain them, but perhaps the two SS divions aren't enough to close the gap.
3) Reform your line to be longer, meaning you advacne somewhat north, but lets Model close the gap and finish the job. Trouble is just that the now fleeing Russians get more time and might be able to put aforce in the way of Model since there is not threat to their rear.
4) Pursue Rotmistrov and 5th GT Army. You should be able to defeat it, perhaps totally. With it out of the picture you could move more securely on the gap. Problem is just that this might take days. And in that time the trapped forces can escape.
Well we're in a position where every choice can be deadly. But I believe we need to keep the initiative. So number 1 it is. ~:)