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You are always as an adult responsible for your actions. To do else wise is to be a slave to society.
Most of the people in the same situation as the rioters are not using violence. They have chosen to not be violent, it is their choice.
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Society has created a bad situation, the choice via ballot or brick is the individuals.
It is a terribly sad what it has come to~:( I just hope things get better.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06745615.htm
Hmm now they are shooting too...
Ten policemen hurt.
This is only getting worse. I see some of you do not want to send the army in, but what then do you want to do? Just curious as I can´t come up with any better solution.
When will we ever get along? I don't know what to say about this. ~:(
Ok today one man died because of the riots. And look at this:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html
Yes indeed Papewaio is correct. Individual responsiblity comes first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Lets see the statistics will support Papewaio statement here 100%. How many in the population of the area are actually rioting - I bet its somewhere around 10-15%. Surely the majority understands personal responisiblity.Quote:
Most of the people in the same situation as the rioters are not using violence. They have chosen to not be violent, it is their choice.
:bow:Quote:
Society has created a bad situation, the choice via ballot or brick is the individuals.
Ok, here’s what I don’t get. Why not leave? Move to another part of the city or another country, somewhere there are jobs and better conditions? My family has moved because of a job before and I have personally moved my family because I did not like the way my neighborhood was changing.
I’m not saying run away from all your troubles but an individual’s first priority should be to take care of themselves.
If you want snow but live in the desert, it doesn’t matter how much you riot, you will never get snow… move! Is it really that hard to cut your losses and just admit that your neighborhood sucks and leave? Sure money may be tight but if you stay it wont get any better. If faced with an option between staying in a neighborhood that is consistently getting worse and moving, why not move?~:confused:
Well, not to insult any of the Muslims on this forum because when i say this I'm sepaking strictly about extremists... They have a belief that infidels deserve only death and that they should own everything. These rioters unfortunately are resembling the extrimist of the Muslim Faith. Can anyone provide information on whether this is true or not and what they are demanding? News is kind of scarce from the point of view of the rioters.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
It seems most of the rioters are youths - I read something about a bomb factory being found and all the people arrested being minors. They probably don't have the autonomy or cash to move easily. Nor - with all due respect to our younger patrons - are such youths necessarily that rational.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
I also think it's naive to equate rebelliousness with absolute, rather than relative, deprivation. Young African immigrants in France are probably better off in absolute terms than if they were in Africa but not in relative terms. In France, they are poorer than most French natives and may feel aggrieved at that. If "sent back" to Africa or wherever, they might be relatively privileged or at worst as poor as everyone else, and so be more docile.
I wonder what proportion of the rioters are second generation immigrants? ie people who have effectively switched their reference group (comparing their living standards to the French, rather than people in other countries). First generation immigrants are often acquiescent as they appreciate the absolute economic benefits that immigration has brought them.
However, I suspect the riots are not fundamentally about socio-economic conditions. In the UK, we had a wave of quite serious riots in the early 1980s and, although there was mass unemployment and other underlying problems, my impression was that the real tensions centred on policing. From what I gather of the French riots, tension over policing also seems to have been the flashpoint.
Interestingly, with the early 1980s riots in the UK, Mrs Thatcher reacted by announcing lots of initiatives to improve policing and invest in the inner cities. If she or her ministers had called the young people on the streets scum, we might have had 11 continuous nights of trouble as well instead of shorter outbreaks we experienced. As Winston Churchill said, if you are trying to kill a man, there's no reason to insult him first.
What about the parents then? Why are they not saying enough is enough, we didn’t move here for our kids to live like this, let’s pack up our stuff and leave. If they are immigrants, even a generation out, they have been thru not being able to make it (or disliking it) somewhere else and wanted to move to where they are now. They had sense to do it before, why not again?:sad3:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
Quote:
Originally Posted by faisal
Yay ignorance, they're not Arabs they're from Africa (mostly North).
What do you do when the ballot box doesn't offer you any real choice? Representative democracy is kind of shame in case you haven't noticed. Rich White Guy A or Rich White Guy B, they might have some minor policy differences, but they both have too much invested in the current political and economic systems to support truly radical change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Has it ever occured to you that it requires money to move? In our world of ever "freer" trade we don't allow labor anything like the same mobility. While this is even more true between states, it is true within them as well, you can't just pick up everything you have and go somewhere else, you need resources to follow resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
My mother was, and that don't make her any smarter or more worthy than people who did not riot. I think the '68 events were a bunch of crap anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Never heard of a pogrom in France lately ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I know there are issues between the muslim and jewish communities, but I don't think anyone burnt jews a 'few years earlier'.
Furthermore, that's not because France is known for it violent riots and manifestations that we should allow people to trample our values or to attack innocents. They have no legal or social claim to support their movement, except the good old "On va les niquer" or "Sarkozy enculé".
Wtf man ? Do you know what these people are saying ? What they're doing ? They set fire to an old woman, they finally achieved to kill someone today. They are firing on firemen, on cops.Quote:
Originally Posted by biguth dickuth
Do you want me to copy/paste their speech ?
Furthermore, if they are rioting and attacking innocents, they should expect to be hitten back, and hitten back badly. That's what would happen in nearly every country in the world. But not in France.
We offered them Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité. They refused the offer, and now, they are spitting on these values. They seriously ought to be punished, and in the harshest way.
Frankly, that's because you're either a naive hippie, or because you're the bourgeois you're describing in your post, and thus never met this kind of people. They have been a pain in the ass of every single frenchman - white, black, arab, asian - for decades. Right now, why do you think arabs and blacks have a bad reputation ? Just for the fact they're black or brown ? Of course not, but I'll give you a hint, that's because we always hear of these arab and black scums from suburbs, who respect nothing and no-one, who will kill someone because he doesn't live in 'their' city, because he doesn't look enough gang-ish, or because he simply did not respect them (yet, they show absolutely no respect for anything, except their own miserable lifes of illiterate little gangsters). And things will get only worse with these riots.Quote:
Originally Posted by biguth dickuth
Just for your information, I don't think I'm a nationalistic right winger nutjob, and I don't think either Ldvs or Louis VI are nationalistic nutjobs. I'd rather consider myself as a socialist. Believe it or not, but I probably have more arab friends than you. Using buzzwords like that won't bring you anywhere.
ROFL, man. Get it on. Do you actually even know what they're doing ? They aren't attacking wealthy people, bourgois or big company bosses. They're burning cars of people who are as poor as them. They're just shooting randomly in the street of their own cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by biguth dickuth
Okay, now, although one of the main problem is the fact that many non-white french are unemployed, you're saying they (immigrants) are harshly used by the 'evil forces of capitalism'. Well, my parents are also used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism and by a society that main aim is mass consummation. Guess what, I'll likely be used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism too. Low class white workers aren't rioting because they have underpaid. Furthermore, more than half of the rioters are not even 18, never tried to study, never tried to work and will likely never ever try seriously to get a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by biguth dickuth
Yeah sure, I should feel responsible if these guys are too stupid to even try to find a job. I should feel responsible when they set fire at this old woman. And sure, the average Joe (or rather, the average Dupond) should feel responsible aswell. I mean, my parents would never have achieved to buy this house without the 2 black slaves they're holding in my cave. Oh wait, I'm going to ask my tunisian slave to do my homework and to study for me, I don't really feel like getting my fingers out of my *** today.Quote:
Originally Posted by biguth dickuth
If you don't have better arguments than some outdated marxist theories, I guess I'll be having some serious problem arguing with you.
The best proof that they're responsible for their action is that a lot of people, wether they're black, arab, white, achieve to find a job, to leave these suburbs and to integrate in the society.
That's precisely the point. From some comments here, it would appears that some people think everyone in France except the migrants is wealthy, owns 3 or 4 cars, 2 houses and whatelse. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but no. There's a load of white poors who don't burn the first thing they have on their hands. Guess what, there's also a load of arab poors who don't riot.Quote:
Most of the people in the same situation as the rioters are not using violence. They have chosen to not be violent, it is their choice.
I think this has more to do with self-imposed isolation and refusal to integrate and think of themselves as French than any supposed disenfranchisement. The rioters, from the little I know about their motives, which could be wrong, aren't rioting over voting rights but want the French out of their neighberhoods. They are trying to impose the culture of their homelands to the new country.
Crazed Rabbit
And thus, mostly arabs...Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
And that doesn't change the fact they're seriously hurting the reputation of other migrants. The rioters are only a few people, but by doing that, they hurt their whole community.
HERE ARE THE INCREASES OF EVENTS:
~:mecry: ~:confused: :charge: :ballchain: :dancinglock: :viking: :director: :scared:
Here are decreases:shakehands: :nurse: :listen: :hippie: :elephant: ~:pimp: ~:lightbulb: ~:yin-yang: ~:thumb:
quite sad isnt it?
Sure it occurred to me, I’m not that blind~;p, but they didn’t have a bag of gold with them when they decided to leave (from wherever they came from) and there wasn’t a bag of gold in France for them when they arrived and there isn’t a bag of gold in there hands now. Money is helpful but it is not “required” to move. I can think of plenty of examples all it takes is a desire and that is what I don’t see and cant understand. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
Also, I think any young black guys in France would find it very hard to get a job or survive if they just suddenly moved to a lot of places. Racism and poor education.Quote:
Originally Posted by yesdachi
My mother was, and that don't make her any smarter or more worthy than people who did not riot. I think the '68 events were a bunch of crap anyway.
So your mother thought she was right when she was out on the street with all the others ,causing chaos for weeks throughout the country , whats so different with those doing it now ?
Never heard of a pogrom in France lately
I know there are issues between the muslim and jewish communities, but I don't think anyone burnt jews a 'few years earlier'.
What has the Jewish communty got to do with it , apart from the fact that some of them were caught up in the pogrom because they "looked" Algerian , as did the other North Africans and some Spaniards , Italians and French .
It was rather embarrasing for your government at the time .
I think this has more to do with self-imposed isolation and refusal to integrate and think of themselves as French than any supposed disenfranchisement. The rioters, from the little I know about their motives, which could be wrong, aren't rioting over voting rights but want the French out of their neighberhoods. They are trying to impose the culture of their homelands to the new country.
Yes Rabbit people choose to live in the worst parts of town , and isolate themselves in run down shitholes where the landlord doesn't give a damn if the house burns down with all his tenants in it , its part of their culture you see and all self-imposed~:rolleyes:
I didn't say anything like that. *cough* strawman *cough*Quote:
Yes Rabbit people choose to live in the worst parts of town , and isolate themselves in run down shitholes where the landlord doesn't give a damn if the house burns down with all his tenants in it , its part of their culture you see and all self-imposed
Crazed Rabbit
My parents didn't riot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Tell me when, then. If you're thinking about Paris in 1961, you're completely wrong. They were assaulted, not the other way round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Let's compare what is comparable, please. The rioters in question here are not peasants in the late 18th century who suffered from exploitation and terrible living conditions. They are thugs taking any cheap excuses they possibly can to make trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaoi
From what Ive been able to gather its mostly about anti secualrism. Isnt that a hoot. Their mad because of Frances policies on religion and not allowing Islam in the government. They were warned about the headscarf issue long ago. AS CR said they want to make France like their homeland. An Islamic nation. Sounds familiar does it not?
Ok, let's put it simply : I *said* (or typed) that (IMHO) the 68 event were a bunch of crap. I *said* that the fact she 'rioted' (well, I don't think she rioted, since she simply walked in the street while singing the International) did not make her any better (IMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
But then, you forget something quite obvious here. My mother did not burn a car, did not send stones at cops, did not set fire to an old women, did not shot at random people with a gun and did not spend her time saying things like "We're gonna blow everything up" or "We're gonna f*** them all".
This is a huge difference.
Furthermore, 68 rioters were actually punished, and some were harshly punished, wherease I have the feeling you think we should just let these scums do whatever they like in 'their' cities, even though they trampling the Republican values, our State and their neighbours.
What are you speaking about here ? Which pogrom is that ? ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I'm really lost here.
Edit : Ok got it, thanks to Ldvs' post. See his comment about that : the arabs did not riot, they were just walking on the street when the police attacked them.
Agreed. But then, what should we do ? Build 4 stars palaces for illegal migrants, while a load of french are living in crappy appartment ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Tell me when, then. If you're thinking about Paris in 1961, you're completely wrong. They were assaulted, not the other way round.
Assaulted ? slaughtered is the word , after they had stopped rioting and bombing , and staged a peaceful protest .
From what Ive been able to gather its mostly about anti secualrism. Isnt that a hoot.
First I've heard of it ?
Their mad because of Frances policies on religion and not allowing Islam in the government.
Ummmm. No
AS CR said they want to make France like their homeland. An Islamic nation. Sounds familiar does it not?
Sounds like bull does it not .
Come on Gawain post a news link for your version of events ~D ~D ~D
Meneldil, I understand your frustration, but you might want to edit your f-bomb...
I still don't know if this is really a religious issue at all. If it was a religious issue, I believe that this would have happened earlier since there was much more of religious contrversy in France in years past. The media is very unclear whether it is a racial or religious issue. To me, it seems a lot more of a money, financial issues more than anything. There HAS to be wringleaders involved. Find the head or this, remove it, this will end. My fear is France will just put a band aide on the issue and it will only festure into even more problems, all across Europe.
Is it true that many of these folks that are rioting 2nd and 3rd generation citizens? If that's the case than this issue is even worse than any of us realise.
1) Aren't these on the lowest strata in society?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldvs
2) Do you really believe the French Revolution was lead be peasants for peasants? No way. It was educated upper middle and upper classes wanting to replace the aristocracy with themselves. They needed manpower so they got the peasants involved. They did most of the deeds for themselves not the peasant underclass.
Protest votes work pretty well here in Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX
What doesn't work to well is when all the immigrants stay in a single voting district (Auburn) and always vote Labor by huge margins. This makes neither the Liberals (who are our right) or Labor (slightly left) work for the vote.
It is the districts that are marginal and swing either way that have the most impact on elections... as they are the ones that get the most buy offs/ pork barralleling / political change.
The Revolution has started!
Once more, there's no issue whatsoever. They're just enjoying themselves by spreading mayhem. Some claim they do it because "of the system", some say that's because they're unemployed, some claim that's because of what one of our minister said one week ago (he called them scums. Too bad they don't like it, but they're scums), and some use the religious excuse aswell : "Islam is not respected", "They insulted the Prophet", etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
As I said, many of them are not even 18. Some are 12 or 13 years old. They never had to find a job, they never studied at school, they never went to the Mosquee, they never had an issue with the police, but they'll find a reason to riot, because they *want* to throw things and to burn cars.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
No. Actually, there are far poorer people. Ancient hand-workers from northern France are also unemployed, but they get far less social helps. Oh, and they don't deal drug btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
There's also a load of homeless people in France.
The Algerians 'slaughtered' in 1961 never rioted or bombed anything. They were just manifesting peacefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
But if you think they were slaughtered, I think this word may applies aswell with the current rioters, no ?
http://www.netwerk.tv/templates/videoasx.jsp?f=198614
Some two minutes in the movie you can hear some rioters in France scream "Allah Akhbar!". There are muslim extremists out there...
They also uses blogs as an orginizing tool.
"The cops are petrified of us, everything must burn, starting Monday, the operation 'Midnight Sun' starts,
tell everyone else, rendezvous for Momo and Abdul in Zone 4
... jihad Islamia Allah Akhbar."
Those who say Islam has nothing to do with the riots are wrong.
Do not confuse extremists' movements such as FLN / ALN and the Arabs that were "slaughtered" during these events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
1) Since they leave school without diploma, as a matter of fact, they can only get low paid jobs, when they get one at all. So yes they're part of the lowest strata, along with millions of other French who aren't originated from North Africa. It's possibly the only similarity with the situation of the peasants in the 18th century.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaoi
2) Thanks for the History course. I think I really lack knowledge about the French Revolution, I'm only French after all. I'd like you check my short list of the major middle / upper class protagonists during the Revolution's period: le Club des Cordeliers (Danton, Marat, Desmoulins), les Jacobins (Robespierre, La Fayette, Le Chapelier, Couthon, Mirabeau, Condorcet), les Feuillants (Barnave, Tayllerand, Dupont de Nemours, La Fayette, La Rochefoucauld), les Enragés (Roux, Valois), les Girondins (Brissot, Condorcet, Roland) and les Montagnards (Robespierre, Danton, Marat, Desmoulins, Saint-Just, Couthon),... Perhaps I should also make an essay showing how Robespierre started from good principles but progressively turned into a megalomaniac madman under his Terreur. Comparing what happens today in the streets with what happened in 1789-1799 is an outrage!
2 bis) What part of my sentence did you misinterpret and made you come up with that aristocracy thingy, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand, unless you insinuate there's a link between the current French aristocracy and the thugs in the streets? The rioters are partly manipulated by extremists and drug dealers but I highly doubt it has anything to do with aristocracy. Or prove it.