Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR

JimBob, it is nice to see that somebody reads my story carefully. :san_wink:

Those of the SS who where found guilty of murdering Hitler and where not executed already are now at the front: 3,500 near Naples and 3,500 near Kiev.

The non Waffen-SS members were transfered into Waffen-SS. All of them had a basic military training before. But it will take some time to form new divisions. The new formations will have Wehrmachts-officers and will be integrated into the Wehrmacht-organisation.

Regarding the existing SS divisons: Manstein needs them. They are strong formations. He will surely avoid to send them back home. So he can either send them to Italy - to teach the Angl-Americans a lesson - or he can use them in Russia.

Regarding the formations: O the maps there are all German and Russian formations that are visible to the Soviets. But of cause they know what you know - that the strongest German formations before Zitadelle were the 9th Army, the 4th Tank Army and Army Detechment Kempf. You find all informations about them and their Soviet counterparts in the internet.

What you and Zhukov do not know is whether the Germans did send some units to Germany or if they changed Corps between the armies.

By the way: I think Kraxis is right. During a battle you get so many information, some important, some not, some true some wrong. But that is normal :san_grin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Kurt

For me - a version of 2. Expand the bridgehead, pushing south and west, while getting the 5th Guard tank over the river as well. To push for Kiev full on while still so stretched is foolhardy. Like I have said before, I worry about the southern flank - I want to know what is there. Hurry up the 3rd Ukrainian as well.

Merry Christmas to every body and a Happy New Year - let battle recommence in early January.:san_smiley:

---

Kurt, just to make this clear: 2 means that the 5th guard tank stays at the east bank. It attacks Tscherkassy from the east while the 5th Guard stays at the western bank and attacks Tscherkassy from there. After they took the town the Tank Army will cross the river.

STALIN'S GIFT

Stalin wants to ipress Churchill and Roosevelt. When they meet he wants to demonstrate them that the Red Army is able to do campaign with airborne operations, just like the ones the Western Allies did at Sicily. So he offers Zhukov some 3,500 men of an elite airborne detachment. They are ready for combat at August 15th.

Zhukov are completly free how to use them. Stalin just wants them to see at a desicive operation and he wants them in action until August 20th.

How do you want to use them?

use them to try and secure key bridgeheads in Kiev maybe? although that does sound just a bit suicidal.....

Drop them behind Kiev and lets see what Germans have in reserve.:san_grin:

Yup, they are too weak to be sent deep into the rear, or even close for that matter in the contested area. They will have to be used in an area where fairly rapid advances are to be expected.

Thus it seem they can only be dropped behind Kiev or one of the bridgeheads.
Since they are mostly for show (Stalin's pets playing in a big game to give him prestige internationally), they need to be protected. Thus I think the northern bidgehead is the best option. To the south are unknown enemy formations, too risky. Kiev is possible but too centrally placed on the line. Wouldn't want the paras to get a pasting by AA, would we now. So only the northern sector remains. A small victory here would not do much, but the propaganda from it would be superb and the impact could easily be played up for the benefit of Stalin.

SOME DOCUMENTS

Although the battle is raging Zhukov has to fly to Moscow to meet Stalin and the STAVKA.. On the way he has time to read some documents he received lately from his commanders and the intelligence.

First Document: Foreign Intelligence – Section Germany – TOP SECRET

Strength of the German Armies in the area of operation (as at July 1st)
2nd Army (General Weiß) 100,000 soldiers, 100 Assault Tanks
XIII. Army Corp 46,000 + 45 AT
VII. Army Corps 50,000 + 55 AT
+ 1 Hungarian Division

9th Army (General Model) 295,000, 658 tanks, 463 AT
XXIII. Army Corp 75,000, 72 AT
XXXXI. Tank Corp, 55,000,133 tanks, 257 AT
XXXXVII. Tank Corp, 65,000, 332 tanks 94 AT
XXXXVI. Tank Corp 60,000, no tanks
XX. Army Corps 40,000, 40 AT
Army Det. Kempf (General Kempf), (126,000, 357 tanks, 155 AT)
XXXXII. Army Corp, 65,000, 80 AT
III. Tank Corp, 35,000, 357 tanks, 25 AT
XI. Army Corps, 26,000, 50 AT

4th Tank Army (General Hoth), 224,000, 1063 tanks, 172 AT
2nd SS Tank Corp 100,000, 494 tanks, 104 AT
LII. Army Corp, 44,000
XXXXVIII Tank Corp, 80,000, 569 tanks, 68 AT

Second Doncument: REPORT OF THE OKW:

The OKW discloses: The enemy continued to attack our positions near Kiev. The deeds of the Romanian and Hungarian divisions must be highlighted. Although outnumbered by 1:20 the defenders managed to hold their positions. The Russians lost 173 tanks and 20,000 men near Kiev.
The Soviets also tried again to cross the Dnjepr north and south of Kiev. 9th Army managed to repel them at the northern sector. In the south the Russians managed to build a small bridge head. They are under constant attacks of the 2nd Army and 4th Tank Army.
At the entire front the Russians lost 358 tanks yesterday. The Luftwaffe managed to fire off 197 planes. Our casualties are 43 planes.

Third Document: Combat Reports – August 13th.

Belarusian Front:
South of Tschernihiw the 1st Tank Army attacks the German 47th Corps and manages to stop it. In the evening the Germans start to withdraw. Casualties are high on both sides. Soviet forces loose 168 tanks, the Germans loose about 100 tanks and ATs.
North of Kiev the 60th Army and the 2nd Tank Army try again to cross the River Dnjepr. After preparation with heavy artillery bombardment the assault divisions have to stand the defence fire from the German 41st Tank Corps. The German have fortified positions and are supported by hundreds of heavy tanks and assault guns. The attacks fail all day long. During night the 60th tries again and manages to build a small bridge head.
Casualties are very high. The 60th has lost most of its combat strength.

1st Ukrainian:
38th and 40th Army finally managed to break through the German lines. The Romanian/Hungarian 31st Corps is on the run. The next German line of defence is 10 km east of Kiev. It is fortified and occupied by the 20th Corp. Tomorrow the 38th and 40th will break through this line, too. Then their forces are exhausted and 6th Guard Army and 7th Guard Army will break into the town.

2nd Ukrainian:
5th Guard Army manages to break out of the bridgehead and pushes west. It is now 50 km southwest of Kiev. After the break through there is only little German resistance. However it is under constant attacks of German Stukas. 5th Guard manages to take a small airport and to destroy some fighter planes. It also manages to take a small fuel stack.
5th Guard Tank Army has almost finished crossing the Dnjepr. Only the heavy artillery is still on the left bank. The 5th Guard tank is under constant artillery bombardment and air attacks. The German attack at the seam of 5th Guard and 5th Guard Tank from the north with the 13th Corp and from the south with the 52nd.
North of Tscherkassy the German 2nd SS Tank Corps start a counter offensive. The 1st Army is taken by surprise. SS division ‘Totenkopf breaks through and gets into the rear of the Soviets. The casualties are very high. Soviet resistance collapses and the Russians retreat.

Air Armies:
The Soviet Air Armies support the operations of the field armies. The focus of the air force is Kiev and the area north of Kiev and south of Tschernihiw. It also covers the supply routes. The Germans air force is very active south of Kiev, especially at the 5th Guard and the 5th Guard Tank Army. They also support the SS Corps. Once more they bomb our supply lines.


Fourth Document: Status Reports (as at August 13th)

Belarusian Front started the operations with 710,000 soldiers, 11,000 guns, 1,700 tanks, 91 SPG and 246 MRLs. These are the casualties: soldiers 11%, guns 12%, and tanks 17%. The 70th Army is in a very bad condition, 60th and 65th Army are weakened. Most armies get enough supply, although it is hard to get enough for the 2nd Tank Army. There are not enough capacities to bring replacements for the casualties to the front.
1st Ukrainian Front started with 626,000 soldiers, 8,700 guns, 1,660 tanks, 42 SPG and 272 MRLs. It lost 5% of the soldiers, 2% of the guns, and 19% of the tanks. 38th and 40th Army are weakened, 1st Tank Army is currently supporting Belarusian, and 69th Army is supporting the 2nd Ukrainian. Supply is tight, especially shells for the artillery near Kiev. We had to decrease the bombardment.

2nd Ukrainian Front started with 573,000 soldiers, 8,500 guns, 1,513 tanks, 126 SPG and 92 MRLs. Casualties are: 8% soldiers, 8% guns, 12 % tanks, 13% SPG and 19 % MRLs. It is very hard to supply the 5th Guard and the 5th Tank Guard. Trucks can only drive at night. Otherwise the German fighters shoot them.
The Air Armies had 2,400 planes, when the campaign started. They have lost 30% during the fighting. The actual combat strength is only 800 planes. Air Armies could use a break of a day or two. And they need replacements.
Zhukov thinks about the situation. The own operations are going well. It seems like Vatutin will soon reach Kiev while Konev is already in the rear of the Germans. Only Rokossovsky has problems reaching his goals. But if everything goes right Kiev will be Russian again soon.

The Germans finally put their cards on the table. Their tank operations coming from Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy hit the Russian flanks. After some troubles the situation in the north is under control again. 1st Tank Army managed to stop the Germans there. In the south the situation is still cloudy.

The SS Corps managed to break Konev’s lines. If they turn west they could cut off the 5th Guard and the 5th Guard Tank Army. If they advance further north they could try to reach the German forces coming from the north. If they succeed this would stop the operations against Kiev.

Now Zhukov has to choose one of these options:

1. Go on. Let the 5th Guard Army and the 5th Tank Army finish the surrounding. They will turn north to cut off the roads and rails west of Kiev, then advance further to reach the Dnjepr and combine the Armies of Belarusian. 1st Ukrainian will go on attacking Kiev. The 69th Army will attack the flank of the SS Corps and secure the southern flank.
2. We have to find a balance between offensive and defensive. Let the 5th Guard and the 5th Guard Tank cut off the supply lines west of Kiev. Let the 60th hold their position while the 2nd goes back behind the River Densa. So it can either help against the 47th Corp or support the frontal attack against Kiev. Give the 6th Guard, the 7th Guard and the 69th Army order to attack the SS Corp.
3. We have to be defensive until the German counter strike is stopped. We have to get more supply and get reinforcements to the armies before we start to attack again. So let the 5th Guard stop and the 5th Guard Tank Army go back to the left bank. Let the 6th Guard Army and the 7th Guard army entrench. Let the 69th stay were it is in case that there are more German attacks from the south. Call back the 60th Army and the 2nd Tank Army. We need them on the left bank of the Desna.

When Zhukov finally reaches Moscow all the bells are ringing: Malinowski liberated Charkow.

There can be little doubt that Stalin would never agree to 3. He would rather risk a lot of cut-off troops, even good ones, than halt a good offensive. Zhukov on the other hand is as always keen on his men's situation, so he would like to blunt to the German attacks by soaking up their strength.

Obviously they would have to agree on #2.

1) Hoth will be caught off balance by an attack on his flanks. Thus I think the 69th should be enough.

And what are 'assault tanks'? Assault guns?

I agree with Kraxis.Option 2).The 69th Army cant stop the SS Corps alone.If we destroy it then the Germans cant stop us.

Kraxis:

I am not sure about this statement:
There can be little doubt that Stalin would never agree to 3.Stalin had to learn the lesson in 1941 and 1942. Unlike Hitler he rarely interfered in tactical things. He trusted Zhukov. Of course he would have urged him to advance, but I doubt that he would have insisted. Look at Stalingrad, where the Soviets waited a long time to start their counter strike. Amazing how patient Stalin was!

Discovery1:

69th Army is the weakest one. It seems like it did not get any reinforcements after the spring war. Konev was crazy that Vatutin did send him his poorest army with 60,000 soldiers and 890 guns. No tanks! So he had to fill it with troops of his own front reserve: 30,000 men, 140 guns, 100 tanks and 15 SPG.

4th Tank Army (Hoth) has more than 1,000 tanks. The SS Corps (Hausser) alone has some 500 tanks (including 36 Tigers) and 100 assault tanks. 48th Tank Corps (von Choltitz) is even stronger – and they have Panthers.

And what are 'assault tanks'? Assault guns?
I think they are. This is the story as far as I understood: The German (Guderian’s) tank strategy did not want to use the tanks to support the infantry. Tanks should attack only after the break through and then operate in the rear. Infantry should do the break through and then attack fortified positions. After the first experience Manstein proposed to develop an armored gun to support the infantry. That could also help the infantry division, which had to follow the tanks. Their standard artillery was too vulnerable and to slow to support the tank divisions. These assault tanks had no turret, there main armor was at the front side – so they were cheaper.

In Russia the Germans needed more tanks to stop the Russians and so the assault guns often were used to stop the Russian tanks. Some models were called Jagdpanzer (tank destroyer) or assault tanks.

And I think the Soviet SPG (self propelled guns) were similar.

Happy New Year everybody!

i think that I agree with Kraxis - the Soviets should keep up the pressure, but fend off the counterattacks. Also we must urge Malinowski to press on as we must put pressure on that suthern flank.:stupido:

STALIN’S PLAN
On the way to Kremlin Zhukov gives his orders. The SS Corps has to be blasted. This is the most important thing to do at the moment. Once it is gone nothing will be able to stop the Soviet advance. All fronts have to concentrate on that. The air armies will focus on the SS troops, too.
Zhukov also makes a decision concerning the paratroopers. They will touch ground west of Kiev, block the road and rail and wait for the 5th Guard Army to quarry them out. Although they are not ready for combat the operation has to take place this night.
At the Kremlin Stalin calls you in immediately: “Ah, Tovarish Zhukov! Welcome back! Did you hear the news? Charkow is liberated, Bryansk is liberated and Kiev will be free within a few days. This is great. We will scare the Fascists off. You did a great job! Now it is time to think of the next steps to liberate mother Russia!
Only Petrow did a bad job. He let the German 17th Army escape to Crimea. Well, I made a plan together with Timoshenko to give him a chance to make amends: North Caucasus Front will make an amphibian operation to take Odessa.”
Stalin looks at Zhukov’s reactions.
“Er, this sounds very interesting! But are we strong enough?”
“We will be! We start with the preparations immediately. Petrow is already collecting ships. The Black Sea Fleet will support him. He will get Marines. We will send as much tanks and planes as possible. You do not need them to take Kiev. The air forces will start to attack Crimea in the next days. We will pretend that we are planning an operation against Crimea. The Germans will concentrate their troops there.
As soon as you take Kiev (or at least cut them off) let Konev advance as soon as possible to Odessa. At the same time 3rd and 4th Ukrainian will advance to Saporischja and Cerson. Then Petrow will take Odessa and the Germans are cut off!”
Stalin is very enthusiastic. It is hard for Zhukov to share it: “Don’t we need more time for preparations?”
“No! Thanks to your outstanding success we do not expect much resistance. I will teach the British and their American friends that it does not take several years to prepare an amphibious operation.”
At this moment the door opens and Stalin’s secretary enters: “News from Italy. Mussolini resigns and goes into exile in Switzerland. Marshal Badoglio forms a new government.”
“Really? Even more good news! The Fascistic block falls to pieces!”
The news gives Zhukov time to think about Stalin’s plan. Maybe Stalin is a bit too optimistic about the Kiev operations. From Zhukov’s point of view the battle is not won, yet.

1. Tell Stalin that the operation at Kiev is in a critical phase. You need all the support you can get; your armies need replacements for planes and tanks. Maybe Stalin will be angry then, maybe he will refuse and intervene more. But you have to give it a try.
2. Agree with Stalin. The idea is not bad. The battle of Kiev is over anyway before you get your reinforcements to the front. If Stalin is busy playing at the sea he won’t care about your business.

number 1) Though i dont think that Stalin listens.:no: If Stalin thinks that the Battle of Kiev is over.I think he is very wrong.:shame:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Franconicus

Kraxis:

I am not sure about this statement:
There can be little doubt that Stalin would never agree to 3.Stalin had to learn the lesson in 1941 and 1942. Unlike Hitler he rarely interfered in tactical things. He trusted Zhukov. Of course he would have urged him to advance, but I doubt that he would have insisted. Look at Stalingrad, where the Soviets waited a long time to start their counter strike. Amazing how patient Stalin was!

---

Sure, he learned a lot. But what he learned was to be decisive, not to spread out his forces, and to carry his point across the battlefield (to not halt if it seemed in trouble). Timing and all that could be left to the generals. Also this is a case of political demands. Stalin was at times a bit pompous, half-bragging to the Western Allies, and almost always making comments on his troops. It would be a horrible setback for him to declare that Kiev was to be taken within days only to have the advance halted because of a 'minor' counterattack.
Also Stalin had learned that the Germans were always going to be tough nuts to crack when they managed to dig in. Better to keep moving, even if slowly. Besides the troops can be replaced.

And I go for #1.

1 for me as well. The Black Sea operation sounds full of pitfalls and one to steer clear of. Kiev is the jewel in the crown, the Crimera a sideshow - risk unle joe's wrath and press on to Kiev. We also have the paratroopers to think of - we don't want it to be a bridgeski too far. Talking of paratroopers, weren't the russian airbourne used in support of a big operation in 43. I used to have a boardgame called Kanev which depicted it.~:cheers:

K.K.
I think there was an airborne operation when the Russians crossed the Dnjepr. The paras were slaughters but the army won time to cross the river. I think there were amphibious operations in the south (Kertsch).

Regarding Malinowski: Do not expect too much. You cannot compare his front with one of our. In the preparation of Zitadelle the Soviets focused everything at Kursk - just like the Germans did. So the decition will be made with these troops.

ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE

Zhukov turns to Stalin: “We should not do it, not now. Not until we really won the battle of Kiev.”
Stalin is irritated: “But I thought the Germans are already beaten.”
Zhukov: “Not at all. During the last weeks we made good progress – because the Germans let us. But now the fight has begun. The Germans defend every inch of Kiev. Their tank formations are currently attacking our flanks. We managed to stop them in the north. But yesterday German SS units started a new attack on our southern flank and broke through. We must stop them or the battle will be lost. So I think it is time to concentrate on Kiev and send all our reserves there. Once we have Kiev, the rest will follow.”
Stalin has lost all his enthusiasm: “Er, alright! Tell Timoshenko what you need! You get everything you want, but beat the Germans and give me back Kiev. We must have a victory. I rely on you!”

Stalin turns around and leaves. When Zhukov passes the antechamber he sees Timoshenko. He reports him the result of his meeting with Stalin and asks him to send him as much help as possible: “The Kiev Fronts need planes at once. And supply. Try to get as much as possible. We also could need some new armies to exchange the exhausted ones.”
Timoshenko promises to do his best: “Zhukov, I just want to go to Stalin to tell him the news. Maybe you know that Mussolini resigned yesterday. Today there is news about riots in Hungary. Workers and soldiers demonstrate at Budapest. Maybe the war is over soon.”
“Let’s hope for the best!” Although it is late at night Zhukov hurries back to the airport. He feels that something is going on at the front and he needs to be there.

Zhukov goes directly to Konev’s HQ. Konev is not there. He is at the 69th Army to organize the counter strike. Unfortunately the 69th is still hundred kilometres east of the operational area. It will take the night to get them fully operational. Then it will march west and gather all other troops that are on their way. Konev also sends replacements to the 1st Army. Both will be ready to attack on August 15th.

Zhukov receives the first message of the airborne troops. They started with some delay. Some transport planes did not take off because of technical problems. On their way to the operational area they had to bypass the AAA ring around Kiev. Unfortunately they impinged on some German night fighters. Although they could escape the formation broke apart. Some planes even flew over the German AA positions and were shot. The rest landed but the squad was dispersed. An officer managed to gather 300 men and to block the main road to Kiev. The Germans are obviously taken by surprise. There is no resistance so far. The paratroops managed to destroy a German convoy and have some POWs.

Zhukov’s sends a radio message to the 5th Guard. Although it is night and it is risky to operate in the rear of the Germans they are ordered to advance as fast as possible.

Soon the day breaks, it is August 14th. Zhukov wonders what the day will bring.

9:00 - Germans attack the paratroops with light alert forces. They are supported FW190 planes. The paratroops have to retreat to a better position. 5th Guard Army is still 15 km away.

The 5th Guard Tank Army starts the attack to enlarge the bridgehead and to get connection to the 5th Guard again.

11:00 The 5th Guard reaches the position of the paratroops. There are 600
paras holding the line. The rest is lost or missed. The 5th Guard Army pushes the Germans back to the road. The next goal is the railroad.

The 5th Guard Tank’s attack is successful. It can push back the German 13th Corps to Kiev and the 52nd towards Tscherkassy. It also gets connection to the 5th Guard Army. Both Guards are attacked by Ju 87 of the St.G. 2 and by FW 190 and Hs 123 of the Sch.G. 1. Both suffer high casualties.

11:30 The 7th Guard Army attacks the SS Corps. Both sides are supported by tactical bombers and fighters. The 7th Guard Army can stop the Germans for 2 hours. Then it has to march north to unite with the 6th Guard Army. German Luftwaffe is slowly getting the upper hand.

12:00 Cry for help from the east side of the Dnjepr. German Tigers of the 48th Corps are in the rear of the 5th Guard Tank Army. This one cannot help because it is engaged on the other side of the river. The German tanks attack is massive with several hundred of tanks and it hits the supply of the 5th Guard and 5th Guard tank which is waiting there to cross the river. Only a couple of AA guns try to stop the Germans. It is a massacre.

12:00 Another cry for help. Tigers north of Poltawa! A massive attack of German forces hits the 3rd Army. They cannot hold the line. The German tanks, 300 or more, break through and advance north.
Tigers all along the southern flank! Zhukov calls Vatutin. The front at Kiev is quiet. Vatutin stopped the attack to refill his armies and to bring supply. 6th Guard Army and 7th Guard Army are in combat with the SS Corps.

Another call gives the update from Rokossovsky. The Belarusian Front is quiet. The 2nd Tank Army has crossed the river. Rokossovski uses the break to refill his armies with troops of his front reserve. All armies except the 70th Army will have almost their nominal strength by tomorrow. It will take a couple of days to reorganize the 70th. The German 47th Corps is quiet, but they get constantly new tanks.

15:00 5th Guard Army has reached and blocked the railroad to Kiev. The city is cut off from its western connections. The Army demolishes several supply and communication facilities of the German 2nd Army. They catch 300 German soldiers plus one Romanian General. 5th Guard Army cables that it is low on fuel.

15:30 Call from Timoshenko. 1st Guard Tank Army and 20th Tank Army are on the way. They will arrive in a week. Also some squadrons of Iljuschin 2 and Jag and Mig fighters will transfer from Moscow and from North Caucasus Front. The first units will be ready within two days.
16:00 After heavy combat the 6th and 7th Guard Armies have to retreat. The SS Corps has more and better tanks and they are supported by German planes.

19:00 Tigers at the flank of the 38th Army. Still it is only an advanced group and they turn around when the Soviet artillery sends its greetings.
21:00 At the southern section the Soviet soldiers are happy when night falls. During night messages of casualties arrive at the HQs. It has been a hard day for the Soviets. But Zhukov knows that there is no time to complain. He has to make a plan to stand the German attack and start to regroup his armies this night.

The Germans have three main lines of attack. First, coming from Tscherkassy along the east bank of the Dnjepr to Kiew, the 48th Tank Corps. Second, coming from Tscherkassy, too, the SS Corps, with direction to Tschernihiw to unite with the 47th Tank Corps. Third, the 3rd Tank Corps north of Poltawa advancing northwards. Additionally the 47th seems to be reinforced and ready to strike again. And during the night the 5th Guard Army notifies the sound of track vehicles in the north of its position.

REPORT OF THE OKW:
The OKW discloses: After the hard defence of the last week the German army started the operation Cerberus, a combined attack of German tank corps against the northern and southern flanks of the Soviets. All assault groups managed to break into the positions of the Soviets. They were supported by big formations of the air force. The Soviets lost a lot of tanks and soldiers and are retreating all along their southern front. Several Soviet formations are cut off.

Radio Beromünster (Switzerland) sends an interview with German Minister Amelunxen. He says that Fascism caused a lot of pain and misery all over Europe. He expresses his hope to overcome this evil ideology. If all peace loving and democratic forces in Europe and America cooperate Fascism will soon be gone and Europe will become the home of free and sovereign nations again.
https://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=folie70lg.jpg

This time you are completely free to decide what is best for the Russians.

Have a nice evening ~:cheers:

How many Russian's are on the West side of the Dnieper, apparently cuttoff?
If alot, bail them out.

Here are the numbers as Zhukov receives them in his HQ:

Zhadov’s 5th Guard Army’s combat strength is 70,000 soldiers, 1450 guns, 90 tanks, 20 SPG, 72 MLRs. It has been in combat since August 11th. The men were under constant artillery and air bombardment. So they are a bit tired. But – they are Guard! They have also 300 POWs. Ammo is low, but still sufficient for a couple of days. Fuel is a problem.
The 5th Guard Tank Army (Rotmistrov) has 37,000 soldiers, 100 guns and 608 tanks. It also lost a good part of its men and guns due to air raids and artillery, but its tank force is intact. So the two armies are a very strong formation.
North of the SS Corps you have the 6th and 7th Guard Army. They have 149,000 soldiers, 2,970 guns, 240 tanks, 38 SPG and 137 MRLs.
East of the SS Corps there is the 69th ((82,000 men, 1030 guns, 100 tanks and 15 SPG ) and the 1st Army (66000, 800 guns, 45 tanks and 10 SPG).

In front of Kiev there are the 38th (60,000, 1170 guns, 150 tanks, 0 SPG, 32 MRL) and the 40th Army (75,000, 1600 guns, 233 tanks). Moskalenkov is the commander of both armies. They have the 48th Tank Corps at their left flank and the SS Corps in the rear.
You also have two other strong formations in the north:
The 1st Tank Army (Katukov) has 75,000 soldiers, 1600 guns, and 233 tanks
The 2nd Tank Army (Rodin) has 33,000 soldiers, 340 guns and 441 tanks.
Both are refilled and ready for combat.

Finally there is the 60th Army (Chernyakhovski) located north of Kiev between Desna and Dnjepr. Its combat strength is 92,000, 1185 guns, 70 tanks. They have only little supply and are a bit demoralized.

Do you need any other details?

We need a good plan. All units in the southern section are struggling and have German tanks at their flanks or rears. The armies at Kievs can be flanked too. There is also the threat that the Germans cut off all three fronts.

So what do you suggest? The plan must be fixed and communicated until next morning. (The sooner the better. Maybe you want to regroup during night):sweatdrop:

Here is my thoughts:
1 - Press on to Kiev - it must be taken, but maybe more from the north
2- Our southernmost forces should press on to Tscherkassy - 2 SS is the danger, but it is very exposed.
3- Concentrate all our air assets on attacking 2 SS.
Cautious aggression is what is needed - we must not loose our nerve.:sweatdrop:

I guess the 5th Guard and 5th Tank Armies are the ones trapped on the west side?

Break them out.

To be honest.I think we are screwed. 6th and 7th Guards army couldnt stop the SS corps.I have to gongratulate the man who made this plan.This is how i think this will turn out.First we have no serios reserves, our strongest unit the 5th Guards tank army(Romistrov) and his 600 tanks are South to Kiev and its tied up there on both sides of the bloody river.I think its more then possible that the 48th German tank corps will roll over the 38th and 40th army,and hits Romistrov on the left flank and rear.Then we have the SS corps.We can hit it with 6th & 7th from the North and 69 th army from the east.But i dont simply think that the 100 tanks of the 69th will help 6th and 7th guards much to destroy the SS corps.They tryed it already without succes.And then there is the 3th German tank corps in North of Pultava,ready to hit our troops in the rear.Last we have the 47th German tank corps in the north.Waiting for its options.If our strong formations in the North 1st and 2nd tank army are ordered to attack elsewhere and not tie it up.Following things can happen: first if we deploy the 1st to attack the SS corps it can hit it on the rear.If we use the 2nd on same purpose it can hit the 5th guard army on the right flank and in the rear.
So what to do...:sweatdrop:
I think that if we wont to save ourselves from a absolute catastrophy.We halt the assault and dig in for defense.Pull of the 5th guard army and 5th guards tank army from both sides of Kiev and pull them inside your armies as reserve.the 2nd Tank army can then withdraw so it has contact on the 1st tank army.Order 38th and 40th army to pull out to the north so if the German 48th tank army follows the 2nd tank army can stop it.1st tank army should remain on its place and stop the attempts of the 47th german tank corps.6th and 7th guards armies should dig in and fight even for the last man to wear out the SS corps.Move the 69th army so it can slow down the 3th German tank corps if it breaks out near Pultava we just have to throw everything we can to stop the Germans.And pray that the reinforcements come in soon.~:mecry:

I'm much with Kage here... The situation seems royally screwed, despite our relatively cautious behaviour to the German movements.

We shouldn't do a Hitler/Stalin and rage that the troops should just press on or similar. I think we have to assume the battle is lost and do damage control right away.
Our northern shoulder seems stronger, while the southern shoulder is reeling.

If we do nothing to halt the attacks in the south we will lose all. The northern attack seems blunted and will not reappear again for some time. Thus we must shift every available tank, gun and plane to the south. Yes, that involves stripping the tanks of the armies on the northern shoulder.

If the southern attack can thus be blunted enough, it might falter, or at least buy us time to pull out. The nothern attack will come, but as with Kurks it will eventually fail if we can halt the southern one first. Thus we can turn the tanks back again.

Obviously the two 5th Guards armies need to do a turn about.
Leave their infantry in place, pin the German forces there, as well as putting the German garrison of Kiev under pressure. But send the tanks back. It does not matter that this will take some time, in fact it might be good as the Germans might advance too far themselves. So when the tanks are ready they will slice into the rear of the SS formations, while their tanks are are not readily available to repel the attack.

Could this end in victory for us? Hardly. Will there be immense losses? You bet. But we have little choice here. We must sacrifice men and materiel for time to even preserve a semblance of a coherent frontline.

Uh, aren't the 5th Guard and 5th Tank Armies traped on the wrong side of the Dnieper?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by discovery1

Uh, aren't the 5th Guard and 5th Tank Armies traped on the wrong side of the Dnieper?

---

Not wholly, besides they still have the bridges. Sure it will be both problematic and costly to move the tanks back, and it will give off the plan, but the Germans will thus be forced to react to it. Either slow down and move some advancing troops to oppose them, or move other troops up (which they don't seem to have). Neither is a good choice for them in the long run.

The mere presence of strong flanking formations of armour would be scary, and could save the Fronts from complete failure.

I think Kraxis idea of moving the armor back is good.What im worried about is that do we have time to do that.This Monster is attacking on the left side of the SS Corps, to the North: XXXXVIII Tank Corp, 80,000, 569 tanks, 68 AT. It has almost the same amount of armour then the SS corps.Also the river is protecting its left flank and on its right is the SS Corps.So it will be pushing with full steam straigth towards us.:sweatdrop:
Edit: Infact the 48th tank corps has more armor then the SS Corps.

Well they are not SS, not nearly as Elite. But the truth is that our tanks are simply in the wrong place and we need them in the right place right away.

As it is we can't stop the Germans from winning a victory. Meaning Kiev is lost currently. But we can perhaps save the Fronts and perhaps even retain most of the land we have regained. And that is not bad in itself as there are many thousands of partisans ready to join up in the army right away, and further resources of men to be called up later, not ot mention the amount of farmland regained. This is no small matter when the western Allies so 'nobly' sacrifices food and materiel for Russia (and makes sure to mention it whenever comrade Stalin mentions the dreaded 'second front'), and Russian actually needs it.

Agreed.I cant wait what the Krauts will do next.It has been a loooong night to wait their next move.~;)

I do not agree. SS was elite, but more in a political sense. Yes, they had better weapons and fought until they were dead, but the casualties were always so high that they were not able to stand for longer longer campaigns. And most of the soldiers had not much experience and were not well trained (in a military sense).

The XXXVIII has the Panzergreadierdivision "Großdeutschland" which was the very best unit of the Wehrmacht, real elite. It had the same amount of Tiger as a SS Division (14). And they had Tank Detachments 51 (104 Panther) and 52 (100 Panther). I know you are all waiting for the wildcats to roar!