God hates homosexuals....and veterans

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Originally Posted by Navaros

In addition, God and Jesus certainly do not tolerate "gays" and the Bible makes that abundantly clear in very explicit language all throughout both Testaments.

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Where does it say this in the new testament?

[QUOTE=Navaros]That is not what the Bible says [QUOTE]
That all depends whether they are practising or not

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Originally Posted by Navaros

who know nothing of God and will not be joining God after their lives on the Earth are ended.

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only God has the right to judge who will go to heaven

LLB...

Just saying that even a fundamentalist Christian shouldn't view things said in Paradise Lost as being the same as the bible.

And Navaros, the Bible in the original Aramaic is much more wooly on the matter than you state here.

lost/gained in translation... plus the all sins are equal thing. Homosexuality is specifically mentioned about 4 times in the bible, i think

Going back to the hell thing, IIRC there is some confusion in christian doctrine between judgement at the time of death and the day of judgement.

Now, I'm not being funny here, but basically what you have is a series of writings developing over time from the jewish conception of no afterlife at all to a later christian conception of an immediate judgement of a soul at the moment of death, by way of a sort of half way house where everything was put in abeyance and we were all judged, dead or alive, on the day of judgement. But of course the problem is if religion is true rather than just a belief then the afterlife can't really have been invented for the first time in about 150BC and hell and judgement can't really have started in 33 AD and all these inconsistencies, perfectly understandable from the historical perspective, become rather embarrassing.

The problem became especially acute when the imminent end of the world which Jesus pretty obviously expected didn't happen, (see also "Did Jesus intend to start a religion anyway" also filed under "difficult questions Christians prefer not to answer") leading to problematic questions about what all the ever increasing number of souls were doing in between dying and the day of judgement.

Anyway IIRC there is supposed to be a sort of pro tem judgement when you die, where if you are bad you just sort of hang about in a godless state, and its only after the mass judgement on the day of judgement that we all get piled into hell.

So LLB is probably quite "right" that the devil is on his travels as we speak.

(This is a garbled recollection of Alice K. Turner, History of Hell, which goes through the development of the ideas of hell and judgment carefully)

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Apologies to getting to this thread late, it appears some of you have wished I came earlier. No, that other guy is not me. ~:cool:

As for Fred Phelps and Co. - are they really lunatics? Yes.

However, they are no more of lunatics than many and/or most other people in society today. Ie: many people think murdering human babies is fine and dandy as long as it is labelled with a misnomer of "abortion" in an attempt to mask the act of murder. Does anything on the Fred Phelps site contain more lunancy than any pro-abortion (or "pro-choice") statement that are made by average, supposedly sane people? No.

Hence, the Phelps crowd cannot be stigmatized by the population at large as if the population at large is better: because in many cases, the population at large is just as insane.

In addition, God and Jesus certainly do not tolerate "gays" and the Bible makes that abundantly clear in very explicit language all throughout both Testaments. To spread that message is not wrong (although that is not exactly Phelps' message, so in this paragraph I am no longer referring to Phelps). To spread the message that "being gay is A-OK", as many so-called Christians like to do these days, is in fact very wrong. That is not what the Bible says and those who try to pretend it is are not Christians but rather members of an Apostate Church who know nothing of God and will not be joining God after their lives on the Earth are ended.

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Let me know your geographical location so we can add that to the Swedish carpet bombing...... :knight:

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

Where does it say this in the new testament?

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See one of the links from the article, there are quotes from the Bible used from this people to keep on their activities.:bow:

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

Navaros Being gay is a sin and you heard the stpry we are all sinners blah blah. and since in gods eyes all sins are equal them being gay is no worse than you lying

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God doesn't have eyes you heretic! ~:)

God doesn't have any attributes, he IS all attributes.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

See one of the links from the article, there are quotes from the Bible used from this people to keep on their activities.:bow:

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well I can't see the pages in question, they are blocked, however most of the quotes that you have been talking about come from the old testament, which while part of the bible as a whole was written by a very different group of people in a very different way to the new testament.

I agree whole heartedly with English Assassin, I'd also suggest considering that many of the different christian docterines were lost when Constantine saw a meteor hit earth & in adopting christianity, basically told the various "sects" to agree on a single message

In my mind this raises the question as to whether what was actually included had any better claim to the "truth" than those that were effectivly tossed out. It also produces a very real possibility that the "true" message may have been one of those discarded. Either way it certainly would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during the deliberations.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Going back to the hell thing, IIRC there is some confusion in christian doctrine between judgement at the time of death and the day of judgement.

Now, I'm not being funny here, but basically what you have is a series of writings developing over time from the jewish conception of no afterlife at all to a later christian conception of an immediate judgement of a soul at the moment of death, by way of a sort of half way house where everything was put in abeyance and we were all judged, dead or alive, on the day of judgement. But of course the problem is if religion is true rather than just a belief then the afterlife can't really have been invented for the first time in about 150BC and hell and judgement can't really have started in 33 AD and all these inconsistencies, perfectly understandable from the historical perspective, become rather embarrassing.

The problem became especially acute when the imminent end of the world which Jesus pretty obviously expected didn't happen, (see also "Did Jesus intend to start a religion anyway" also filed under "difficult questions Christians prefer not to answer") leading to problematic questions about what all the ever increasing number of souls were doing in between dying and the day of judgement.

Anyway IIRC there is supposed to be a sort of pro tem judgement when you die, where if you are bad you just sort of hang about in a godless state, and its only after the mass judgement on the day of judgement that we all get piled into hell.

So LLB is probably quite "right" that the devil is on his travels as we speak.

(This is a garbled recollection of Alice K. Turner, History of Hell, which goes through the development of the ideas of hell and judgment carefully)

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I dont know what your 'sect' teaches, but that's not quite my understanding.

First, a few basic points, 1) Heaven would be likened to a state of eternal bliss, or like a oneness with God. 2) Hell would be defined of a total absence of God or a banishment from his presence with no hope of reprieve. 3)Purgatory is essentially hell, with the significan difference being that you still have hope- hope that one day you will be admitted to heaven.

So anyhow, when you die, you are brought into God's presence and judged- not temporarily, you are judged. In that moment, you know what it is like to be totally in God's presence (heaven). But, if you are sent to hell you are removed from God's presence never to be again returned. Imagining what a state of total, absolute bliss would be like you can also imagine would hell would be like, after having a taste of what could have been and then being removed from it for all eternity without any hope of getting it back. Only those who are totally sinless are admitted to heaven immediately, the rest are sent to purgatory, or if they are especially nasty- to hell.

As to judgement day, my understanding is that applies to all those currently living- not those who have died and already been judged. Theologically speaking, Heaven wasn't "invented" in 150BC- but, its gates were closed from the time of Adam & Eve until Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross for our sins. As to Jesus "expecting" the end of the world- of course he did. The point was, however, that we don't know when the time will come and therefore should always try to be spiritually prepared for it- so as not to be caught unprepared.

I dont know if that clears things up at all, but that, in a nutshell, is what I remember being taught.

Gah! Purgatory gah!

Where does it say this in the new testament?

You just don't understand how it works do you .
You have to take a little bit from here and a little bit from there then add them all together without reference to context or any reference to anything that might be in there as well that is contradictory , then you have a complete position to take on any possible subject going .~;)
You can use the bible to justify or condemn just about anything .
edit , perhaps that last sentance should be "use/misuse"

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

well I can't see the pages in question, they are blocked, however most of the quotes that you have been talking about come from the old testament, which while part of the bible as a whole was written by a very different group of people in a very different way to the new testament.

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YEP...It's the word of GOD.~:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Where does it say this in the new testament?

You just don't understand how it works do you .
You have to take a little bit from here and a little bit from there then add them all together without reference to context or any reference to anything that might be in there as well that is contradictory , then you have a complete position to take on any possible subject going .~;)
You can use the bible to justify or condemn just about anything .
edit , perhaps that last sentance should be "use/misuse"

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I get how it works only too well, the point im making is that it is usually quotes from the old testament that are used against gay people and that the most important teaching in the whole of chrisitanity the one that supercedes all others, to love your neighbour is compleatly forgotten

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

I get how it works only too well, the point im making is that it is usually quotes from the old testament that are used against gay people and that the most important teaching in the whole of chrisitanity the one that supercedes all others, to love your neighbour is compleatly forgotten

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But the point is, from me at least, atheist and esceptical, that if it's the word of God then you don't take the old testament separeted from the new testatement. Or it's not the word of God, or God is not allmighty and omnicient, or it's...well falible...This final concept is so ridiculous that it's like having an authoritarian king that directs what is good and what's bad, but without having a good definition...Or maybe Jesus was really God and he teached something to his father...~:eek:

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Or maybe Jesus was really God and he teached something to his father...~:eek:

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well, via the concept of the trinity he is, he is a part of god that came to bring us new teachings, I won't go into an in depth explanation now but suffice to say the teachings of Jesus supercede the old testament.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

So anyhow, when you die, you are brought into God's presence and judged- not temporarily, you are judged.

As to judgement day, my understanding is that applies to all those currently living- not those who have died and already been judged.

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Actually from my reading of the Bible (quiet a while ago) iirc it actually says that on judgement day all shall rise from the grave and be jugded by God, Earth will be destroyed and Heaven will be made.

But the Bible does get confusing when it comes to things like Heaven, Angels, Satan and Hell (which my girlfriend insist was only added to the christian faith during the dark ages). According to Catholicism, you get judged immediately and admitted into heaven or get sent to hell/purgatory. There was a pope once that tried to change this view to what I discribed above (sort of), he wasn't very popular. I'm not sure what happened to him, he was considered a heretic iirc, and might even have ended up in flames.
It is very important to (old school) Catholic dogma that judgement doesn't happen at the end of time, since that would rule out Saints sitting by God's side. Which would make the popular practice of praying to the Saints seem rather silly...

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

well, via the concept of the trinity he is, he is a part of god that came to bring us new teachings, I won't go into an in depth explanation now but suffice to say the teachings of Jesus supercede the old testament.

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So who's right? The father or the son. But there's quotes against homesexuality in the new testament also.
Romans 1:32 -"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
I Corinthians 6:9-11 -"¿Don't they know that the unjust will not heir the Kingdom of God?
Do not fool yourselves: they'll not heir the Kingdom of God those that have fobidden sexual relationships, nor those that worship false idols, or the adulters, nor the homosexuals of any class, nor the thiefs, nor the blackmailers, nor the exploiters, nor the drunk," (?) "nor the gossip," (?).
I Timothy 1:6-10 - (It's talking about the ideas that law does not protect) "...for those who have forbidden sexual relationships and for the homosexuals, for those who sell and exploit other men, for those who lie and swear in falseness. This and all the other sins go against the sane doctrine..."
Jude 7 - "The same as Somoma and Gomorra and their neighborgs cities, who also prostitued themselves falling to the unions against nature, are an example of the punishment of the eternal fire."
Romans 1:24-32 has also some nice words.
II Timothy 2:19 - "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
Also this is why this people do what they do: Jude 22-23 "Try to convince the doubtful and save them, taking them out of condemnation; to the rest treat them with compassion but with prudence, aboherrecing they very clothes contaminated by their bodies."
There are more in the same link at the start of the thread.
Now this is my translation from the spanish, but I think that it's understandable anyhow.
Even if this doesn't convince you, then you'll notice that by saying that Jesus corrected his father (or himself :rolleyes:) then you're saying that God is falible, wich is an innacceptable proposition for such an "entity" wich is supposed to be omnicient, the one, the absolute and the creator.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

So who's right? The father or the son. But there's quotes against homesexuality in the new testament also.

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Being gay is a sin and in gods eyes all sins are the wether you lie murder or you are gay its all on the same plian.

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

Being gay is a sin and in gods eyes all sins are the wether you lie murder or you are gay its all on the same plian.

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So you believe the same?

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

So you believe the same?

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Yes he DOES, Shut the hell up already. GAH!

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

So you believe the same?

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Its two sperate things while we have to adhere to sociteys laws rules ETC. God can always forgive us no matter how henous the crime

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

Its two sperate things while we have to adhere to sociteys laws rules ETC. God can always forgive us no matter how henous the crime

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Then I will recomend that you reflex a little more.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Then I will recomend that you reflex a little more.

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what~:confused:

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

what~:confused:

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About how you value homosexuality. Of course is just a recomendation, different opinions, no matter how wrongs they're, are always welcome.

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Being gay is a sin and in gods eyes all sins are the wether you lie murder or you are gay its all on the same plian.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

God doesn't have any attributes, he IS [...]

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Disagree!

Navaros, you're right. They are murdering babies. The trouble is convincing me that it's not cool to do it.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Disagree!

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You can disagree till your d*** falls off, that doesn't make you right.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Even if this doesn't convince you, then you'll notice that by saying that Jesus corrected his father (or himself :rolleyes:) then you're saying that God is falible, wich is an innacceptable proposition for such an "entity" wich is supposed to be omnicient, the one, the absolute and the creator.

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well, god is not fallible but humans are infinately fallible i believe that the old testament was written by people inspired by god but with their own social codes that they supperimposed onto the main message, Jesus disagreed with the way that God was being used to make money via things such as the money changers, he wasn't so much correcting earlyer teachings as clarifying their main message.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

You can disagree till your d*** falls off, that doesn't make you right.

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Or you, for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

well, god is not fallible but humans are infinately fallible i believe that the old testament was written by people inspired by god but with their own social codes that they supperimposed onto the main message,

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Oh yes the old rule of Christianity, the sweet candy for new devotees. The book was written by God, but not that much. I'm the Pope and I'll say to you what was written by God and what was written by people inspered by God, that could made mistakes. Of course, both testaments were written by people, GOD DOESN'T HAS HANDS!!!

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Jesus disagreed with the way that God was being used to make money via things such as the money changers, he wasn't so much correcting earlyer teachings as clarifying their main message.

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So God didn't send plagues, and killed people, he didn't destroyed Sodoma and Gomorra, he didn't made the Tower of Babilon fall, he didn't kill the first son of the Pharaon (oh how a lovelly God ~:eek:).
Also notice that I purposely posted quotes from the New testament, so it appears that there's nothing to correct really.
Some messages, my friend, are clear like water, and nor Jesus, nor his followers bothered to clearify them. So the only way to do it is to wait for another Mesahiah to correct the wrong words, with out him it will be the man who corrected God's word (how ironic~:rolleyes: ).

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Oh yes the old rule of Christianity, the sweet candy for new devotees. The book was written by God, but not that much. I'm the Pope and I'll say to you what was written by God and what was written by people inspered by God, that could made mistakes. Of course, both testaments were written by people, GOD DOESN'T HAS HANDS!!!

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I don't remember saying that the bible was written by god, of course it was written by people (influenced by god), you are disputing a point i haven't made.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

So God didn't send plagues, and killed people, he didn't destroyed Sodoma and Gomorra, he didn't made the Tower of Babilon fall, he didn't kill the first son of the Pharaon (oh how a lovelly God ~:eek:).
Also notice that I purposely posted quotes from the New testament, so it appears that there's nothing to correct really.

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as you yourself have said these events all happened in the old testament, im not 100% sure whether these events were caused by god or were merely natural disasters attributed to him, it all happened a very long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Some messages, my friend, are clear like water, and nor Jesus, nor his followers bothered to clearify them. So the only way to do it is to wait for another Mesahiah to correct the wrong words, with out him it will be the man who corrected God's word (how ironic~:rolleyes: ).

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Id call saying that the most important thing, more important than any other rule is to love your neighbour clarifying things, wouldn't you?