Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

[QUINTUS]: I am pleased to see Legate Tiberius Coruncanius declare his candidacy and to offer such a well thought out manifesto.

I do strongly suspect, however, that Macedon will strike against us as soon as we have a settlement bordering them. The First Consul will then have to combat both Macedon and Greece. This is well within our capabalities, but it is best to be prepared for this contingency.

I would recommend using the Consular Army as the offensive right fist in the campaign and bringing up a Praetorian army as a defensive left fist. Substantial garrisons will also be needed for any unwalled settlements we occupy that border enemy lands. Legio IV at Apollonia is in no fit state to act as our second field army in Epirus and needs substantial reinforcements or replacing by another legion as proposed in motion 7.10. I would recommend Senator Publius Pansa for command of our second field army in Epirus. I believe he is about to qualify as a Legate and I see something of the spirit of brave Pleminius in him.

Finally, I must respectfully disagree with the Legate in regards to motion 7.3, prioritising the building of a Temple in Roma. The capitol should be the centre of our troop recruitment and as such we should work towards building the finest armoury possible. This will require constructing the most advanced forums and Palace. Praise the gods, but pass the ammunition, is what I say!

While I believe it is very important that we raise a significant number of new cohorts for campaigning, I do believe that we must try and maintain profitability within the Republic as well. It will do us little good to rush into a period of great expansion if we are once again forced into a period of consolidation in order to restore profitability. As such, I believe that the Consul should balance military expenditures along with continuing infrastructure investments to maintain prosperity.

Motion 7.12: The Consul must not permit seasonal income to dip below 8,000 dinarii for more than two seasons at a time during his Consulship. Furthermore, the Consul must ensure that, at the end of his term, seasonal income is above 10,000 dinarii.

[QUINTUS]: I assume, First Consul, that by seasonal income you mean the starting balance at each season? Our gross seasonal income is in excess of 39000 dinarii but given our expenses, our starting balance is only around 12000.

This balance is a healthy sum given the size of our lands and forces, and I agree with the First Consul that it would be regrettable to squander this inheritance. Consequently, I second the motion.

However, I would add that it should be taken as a general goal and we should not be too precise in judging whether it is met. I have found the starting balance is hard to predict exactly. My advice to the next First Consul would be simply to restrain expenditures if the starting balance dips below 8000 and gradually work towards increasing the balance to 12000 or more

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Originally Posted by econ21

Finally, I must respectfully disagree with the Legate in regards to motion 7.3, prioritising the building of a Temple in Roma. The capitol should be the centre of our troop recruitment and as such we should work towards building the finest armoury possible. This will require constructing the most advanced forums and Palace. Praise the gods, but pass the ammunition, is what I say! [/i]

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Esteemed former consul, I am shocked by this attitude on 2 levels!

Firstly, the lip-service you pay to the Gods that have blessed you and protected you these past 15 years.

Secondly - and I was hoping that no-one would bring this up, so am I saddened it is you Quintus - is that what Rome has become? A barracks?? A training ground for our rank and file?? For a long time, too long perhaps, I have kept quiet on this issue. Our city has a sacred boundary over which no troops may cross, yet here we are turning Roma into a recruiting ground!!

Rome is the captital of the civilized world!! People from every nation should come to Rome and marvel at her majesty, at her greatness! Blacksmiths producing chain mail are not the kind of thing that makes our city talked about all around Our Sea.

Rome should NOT be the centre of our troop recruitment, it should be the glorious centrepiece of our Republic! Awesome temples to honour our great Gods, centres of learning to attract the brightest minds, the commercial hub of the civilized world! All these things Roma should be! We have cities enough with which to recruit, train and equip our soldiers. Capua has long been our centre of troop recruitment, may it ever be so.

[QUINTUS]: Young Amulius, do not mind me. Bitter experience has made me treat talk of the gods with a scepticism that may shock a man of your good character. It has been my experience that the gods help those who help themselves. All the prayers in the world are to no avail when you have a sarissa in your gut. We are men of the world - we must see to the welfare of our people and especially their protectors, our troops, first and foremost. Leave the priests to fuss and fret over other matters. Priests and temples have their uses to quiet anxious minds, but we should not let them dictate the course of this great republic. (Soothsayers are another matter, of course, and in my experience should always be carefully heeded.) But I see no point debating these matters of faith here - let the Senators vote with their consciences.

On the matter of who we should recruit into are armies, that is a more earthly subject on which we can engage. I have long opposed Senator Publius Laevinius's obsession with enabling auxilia buildings in every settlement. One or two is fine, to provide varied auxiliaries for our armies - the subject Gaulish people have strengths we could use, for example. But we should be able to recruit most of our men from our heartlands. The danger of installing training camps in every settlement, quite apart from the wasteful expense, is that First Consuls may be tempted to recruit from wherever is most convenient rather than from the settlements with the best armouries. Why, even one of my own Legio IV came with such basic equipment that I had to instruct the armourers of Apollonia to upgrade their weapons!

As to whether the source of recruitment be Rome or Capua, the facts are inescapable - the capitol draws brave men to it like moths to a candle. It grows ever larger while Capua and lesser cities struggle to keep up. It is true, we could leave the citizens of our capitol to mill around aimlessly, making money and praying to salve their consciences while adding to the squalor and discontent. But true Romans would not be satisfied with such a life and would expect to labour long and hard in defence of their country. I do not object to the people of Capua or Ancona serving in our legions - even though they are not yet true citizens of Rome. But if it is a choice between a better armed and armoured true Roman and someone else, then I choose the Roman.

While I am very impressed by the economic revival we have seen under the strong leadership of Augustus Verginius, I have to disagree with Motion 7.12.
I small reserve of gold in our treasury is wise, but more as 5.000 dinarii would be excessive. Money must be used, not hoarded, if we do not want to stint our economic growth and let our governors get a reputation as lousy city developers. Furthermore, such strict restrictions would be extremely tedious for the the acting consul to keep an eye on or even to actually succeed in, and I for one would not want to be acting consul with this sword of Damocles hanging over my head.

OOC : If we have more as 10.000 dinarii in our treasury and do not build something, governors will start to get bad traits.

Furthmore, seeing the final figures of the reign of Augustus Verginius, seeing the massive losses and destruction he has caused to our enemies, and the vast growth of our economy and our military recruitement pool, I am very pleased to submit the following motion :

Motion 7.13 : This House grants First Consul Augustus Verginius a triumph. This is on account of his great successes on the battlefield with relatively little loss and the effective destruction of the nation of Gaul as a fighting force. It also notes the vast improvements of our economy and our recuitement pool.

Lastly, seeing little enthousiasm for Motion 7.8, I propose the following Motion :

Motion 7.14 - If we are attacked by the Iberians, we will attack and take over the Iberian controlled settlements in Gaul. The acting consul will have full disgression in how to go about this and is allowed to wipe out the Gauls if he deems this necessary.

[QUINTUS]: I ... (cough, mumble) ... second motion 7.13... (mutter)...(grumble)...

Lucius Aemilius suddenly collapses on the senate floor in a fit of hilarious laughter :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

After a minute or so, he scrambles back onto his seat to the stunned looks of his fellows...

Ahem, excuse me, my lords... :embarassed: ...don't know what came over me there.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: I declare that Tiberius Coruncanius is elected First Consul unopposed! May the gods favour him!

Congratulations Pater, clearly it is the will of the Gods for you to be Consul!

It is with great annoyance that I see that Motion 7.12 was not seconded before voting began. My words have been unfortunately misinterpreted and I believe this may have resulted in the Motion failing to receive a second. For future clarification I would like to state a number of things, since this is not an issue I shall readily abandon.

First, setting a minimum amount of required seasonal income has absolutely no relation on the size of the treasury. Every single last dinarii in the Republic could be spent and the requirements could be met, as 'income' by definition means the amount of new monies coming in and not of old monies accumulated.

Second, a sudden drop in seasonal income below a certain level can easily cripple the Republic and cause long-lasting detriment to all Roman citizens. If we find ourselves in sudden need of more men for the legions, whether through new cohorts or replacements, a lack of income will prevent any long-term recruiting. Furthermore, if we cannot maintain infrastructure development on a constant basis, we will fall behind in the financial balance and further increase the rate of loss. We must be able to maintain our standing military force while at the same time preserving enough of a sum for seasonal investments and enough for any necessary recruitments. If we cannot do all three of these at once, the Republic will stagnate and yet another Consul will be required to devote their term solely to domestic improvements.

Finally, auxilia structures have uses far beyond those of mere recruiting. I would note to the Senate that a majority of the increase in profit that the Republic enjoyed under my term was exclusively due to the fact that many of our provinces have been taught proper Roman methods. The greater the degree of their absorbtion into the Republic, the greater they will contribute to our prosperity. In addition, the better they understand our traditions, the more content they will be with our rule and the greater the level of taxes we will be able to coax from them without causing a revolt.

Senators, I realize that Motion 7.12 is not even up for vote now, but I will most certainly propose a similar motion at the next session. I urge this body to demand financial responsibility from all Consuls. Need I remind you, Conscript Fathers, that Rome wasn't built in a day? How shall we pay for tomorrow's requirements if we bankrupt ourselves today?

Senator Verginius,

I see I misunderstood Motion 7.12.

Based on my economic advisors (ongoing H/VH campaign) I think it will be very hard to make our seasonal income rise to 10.000 dinarii. Our military forces are below nominal at the moment and will have to be increased if we want to fight any kind of decent war in Greece and this will lower our income faster than our economic investments will raise it. I would be suprised if mid-term our balance has not decreased.

I do agree with your sentiments about our economy and will second such a motion if it is phrased in less demanding terms, i.e. 'will strive' instead of 'must not permit' and so on.

Senator Verginius, while I too believe that we should try to increase the resources available to the Republic, I believe that the demands set by motion 7.12 are too high. I agree that our seasonal income should be made to top 10,000 denarii by the end of the term, I think that setting the target of 8000 denarii income at least one season in every two is too demanding, and not possible if we wish to defeat the Greeks, as we will have to replenish our legions.

I say that we should strive to increase our income by the end of this term, but I do not believe that this should force senator Coruncanius to spend money like a miser, limiting the development of our cities, which will hinder us in the long term. We should upgrade our economic facilities in the whole of the republic. While this will be costly for now, it will benefit us greatly in the long term, and perhaps we could even buy the loyalty of the Greeks after they suffer some more humiliating defeats.

Members of the Senate,

After reviewing the Consuls first report I find it very underhand that Macedonia would attack Illyria. It is obvious that the Greeks and the Macedonians have conspired to finish Illyria whilst also striking at us. It is, as if, they work with one mind.

In one move the Greeks agree a ceasefire with Illyria but then allow their allies the Macedonians to attack them. This is beyond dishonour! And fully justifies any actions our Consul will take against Greece or Macedon.

With regards our failed Diplomatic moves. I feel that the Illyrians time is short and we should approach them once more only but insist on Military Access in return for striking against Macedonia.

I do not believe that Macedonia will stand by whilst we finish the Greeks and war with Macedon is inevitable, we can, perhaps wait a season or two so see what the Macedon armies on our frontier do but I believe they will start a war against us soon.

As to the Germanians, we should continue to approach them. Perhaps continued pressure from the Iberians will make them see sense in allying themselves with a powerful friend such as the Republic.

Consul Coruncanius, I would like to propose a new strategy which I believe may be of great benefit to the Republic. First, ignore Thermon, Larissa, Thessalonica, Pella and Scoda. Move a fresh legion into Apollonia to protect it from the enemy. Take Consular I Army south to the Pelleponese. Once there, assault and capture Sparta, Elis, Corinth, Athens and Chalkida. All five of these large and prosperous cities can be protected with but a single force northwest of Athens. We can gut our enemies, fill our coffers, and yet refrain from overextending ourselves. Once those areas are secure, we can continue the assault with a combined movement from Apollonia and Athens.

The enemy will be driven before us and our flanks will be secured. The Apollonian force could protect Antigonea or abandon it to the enemy depending on what seems best. I fear that if we attempt to hold the provinces immediately around Apollonia, we shall sap our strength by requiring many strong city garrisons to protect against Greek and Macedonian counterattacks. Let us sieze the south in one formidable thrust!

A rash but seemingly doable plan, senator Verginius. Once again I applaud you for finding the best path to victory.

However, I doubt that senator Coruncanius will agree to this, seeing his policy of starting no new wars. He shall either have to change this policy or conquer only the Greek territories, leaving the conquered ripe for Macedonian picking, which will no doubt happen if we leave after the captures to continue the war.

Senators, personally I feel that war with the Macedonians is unavoidable, as they are firm alllies with the Greeks and have shown their lack of honour by this attack of the Illyrians.

We have no choice, we must subdue them!

I fear that war with Macedon is only a matter of time. If they are so foolish as to attack us, the policy suggested by former Consul Verginius is a sound one in my opinion.

Oh, and may I congratulate our navy on their first victory on the seas! May it be the first of many!

I some of you warmongering senators had taken the trouble to second my motion Motion 7.9, the acting consul Coruncanius would be obliged to go on the attack against the kingdom of Macedon. As it is, he can do as he sees fit.

Of course I am still in favour of immediate offensive action against the kingdom of Macedon with all the forces at our disposal.

I am very pleased to see our first naval victory ! My congratulations to our acting consul Coruncanius !

"Senators, you put a legion under my command, so have faith in me and let me act!"

Egads! We go off busy fighting Greeks and Gauls, and it turns out Arminium is under threat? From brigands?! This shows foolishness on all of our parts, Senators.

Rest assured I will have a few motions related to this situation come the midterm session...

I find this a serious oversight. Why, if this is not suppressed soon, it shall become a general uprising!

I suggest we befriend and ally ourselves with the brave Illyrians, not matter how high the cost. The despicable Macedonians have violated our territory without justification. I strongly urge that we liberate the Illyrians homeland as a second front against the perfidious Macedonians!

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Egads! We go off busy fighting Greeks and Gauls, and it turns out Arminium is under threat? From brigands?! This shows foolishness on all of our parts, Senators.

Rest assured I will have a few motions related to this situation come the midterm session...

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I am in full agreement, Senator. Though Italy may seem secure from foreign attacks it is still vulnerable to brigands and other foul creatures. We should maintain a permanent force in Italy to deal with them.

Conquered though they may be, you must remember, fellow Senators, that only fifteen years ago, these Greeks were whole heartily supporting Pyrrhrus in his invasion. As such, we cannot depend upon their loyalty. Senator Verginus has made an excellent suggestion, and one which I whole heartily support.

I do not believe that we necessarily need use good Roman citizens to deal with these 'rebels.' Our Legions are best used to fight the enemies of Rome, not to put down vandals and brigands. I say let our Italian allies prove their loyalty by allocating their auxilia to the task, under the oversight of a Senator, of course. Fielding such a group will cost the Republic less and will keep the Legions free to pursue war with our enemies. In addition, I do not believe this would be inconsistent with the proper composition of our armies, since it would not be an army as such. Its job would not be to fight wars, but simply to dispose of these upstarts. As a city garrison exists to keep order in a settlement, this force would exist to keep order in the countryside.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: As we have now received the mid-term report of the First Consul, I declare the interim session of Senate open for the proposing of motions. The deadline for motions is Thursday 6pm UK time, after which there will be a 24 hour period of voting.

On behalf of senator Verginius, I would like to propose motion 8.01: A legion-sized army entirely composed of Italian auxilia will be created and stationed in the centre of Italia, to deal with rebels and brigands in the countryside.

I would like to propose two motions:

Motion 8.2: Whereas the Illyrians are allies of our enemies, the Gauls, Motion 7.5 (alliance with Illyria) is to be stricken, and this house does not authorize an alliance with Illyria.

Motion 8.3: This house authorizes attacks against the navy of Ptolemy, and raids on, or conquest of, their colonies, which include Cyprus, Rhodes, Lesbos, and coastal posessions in Asia and Thrace, for the purpose of gaining naval superiority in the eastern Mediterranean and establishing trade networks therein. This motion authorizes a declaration of war on Ptolemy.

Acting consul Tiberius Coruncanius,

I am pleased with your excellent progress and great success on the battlefield, and with the construction of temples to the glorious Gods. However, I wonder what drives you to propose war on the Ptolemaic empire without the slightest provocation ? Could it be that the power at your command is already rising to your head ? I vehemently oppose Motion 8.3. If you feel adventurous, I suggest you send an expedition to Crete and Southern Greece and wipe out the Greek confederacy once and for all instead. I also oppose Motion 8.2.
I will second Motion 8.1.

As I feared the Iberians are becoming ever more powerful while we sit behind the river of Massilia and watch their power grow. I despair, my lords, of your blindness to this danger. Instead of declaring war on an extremely distant nation we have no quarrel with, we should stop the growth of Iberian power before they annihalate the Germans and the Gauls and turn their attention to us. While Germans and the Gauls are no friends of mine, it is best is they are equally weak and at each others throat. Accordingly, I will propose Motion 8.4 :

Motion 8.4 : We will attack and take over the Iberian controlled settlements in Gaul. The acting consul will have full disgression in how to go about this and is allowed to wipe out the Gauls if he deems this necessary. I volunteer myself, Lucius Aemilius, and the Legio Italia Victrix for this campaign. This Motion authorizes a declaration of war on Iberia. We are still at war with Gaul.

I will also once again propose this motion :

Motion 8.5 : This House grants First Consul Augustus Verginius a triumph. This is on account of his great successes on the battlefield with relatively little loss and the effective destruction of the nation of Gaul as a fighting force. It also notes the vast improvements of our economy and our recuitement pool.

Senator Aemilius, we think similarly, but I do not think that we should take the Gallic provinces of the Iberians. These areas are difficult to defend, bordering the Germanic tribes and the land of the Thracians. Furthermore, they are essentially a waste of men, seeing the destruction wreaked upon Gaul by former consul Senator Verginius. To effectively and decisively cripple the Iberian threat, I think that we should strike the heartlands of Iberian herself.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius

To effectively and decisively cripple the Iberian threat, I think that we should strike the heartlands of Iberian herself.

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If you propose a Motion to that effect, I will second it.