Imperial Diet V

Jan, you confuse me, you claim that you need control over build ques in the outremer, then claim that you can't have any ungoverned counties, thses are contridictory in my mind.

Unless you feel that it is your right as king to issue orders to your counts?

As for your excuse that you have a war to fight, and we should just shut up, we all have wars to fight.

the Sicilians and Spanish in the South, the Hungarians, Poles and Russians in the East and North, the Danes in the North, th French in the west.

Lothar's creative editing of your proposed CA was to show that the legislation in completely self serving, there is only one king in all the HRE and it woudl seem that you are appointed for life.

Your position as King is lower than that of Dukes, yet you feel it is in your right to take control of thier lands, and talk down to much more expierenced men. As "manager" of the Outremer, it is your job to work with the Dukes and the Chancellor to co-ordinate the defence, and economic policies of the outremer.

And as you seem so stuck up on it, can you show me specificallywhere it says that the king of the outremer can set build ques for the whole of the outremer, at his leisure.

You do realize that your title as King is in name only, and can be stripped as easly as if has been given.

Duke Gerhard,

I wish to give these counties to Crusader Counts. Yes I can set the build queues myself. But, I rather give it to men who leave their homes and help me with our mission out here.

My claim that I have a war to fight was to claim that I need to not be micr-managed. I do not wish anyone to "shut up".

There is only one King but there will be more after me. My CA is just to ensure that they have the same influence as their own Crusader Counts. It is an attempt to balance out the scales. Not weigh them in my favor.

As for the law that gives me the power to set build queues,

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6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count.

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As for my position, I am an agent of the Kaiser. Any problems with me, you can take to myself or him.

Helmut von Hamburg, enters the diet for the first time with his loyal watch dog, Jan, which Helmut has named after his little brother.

" Greetings! I thought to come and visit the Diet myself, before my little brother takes all the titles on the Reich! Im not here to propose edicts,but to claim tasks worth doing. I think that i have been completely left out on everything and thanks, much to my little brothers vicious plans to get the oldest son of Fredericus Von Hamburg to be remained as unknown man,while he has himself already usurped himself as King of Outremer! I demand an county atleast immediately. This miss treatment of my person is outrage!"


Helmut sits down,staring at his brother viciously.

Helmut!

Jan grins at the sight of his brother.

Duke Ansehelm has given you our father's lands in Hamburg. As for usurping, the Kaiser named me. I did not usurp anything.

Gert von Runstede: Herr Jan, you have to remember that in your own wording you have never been a count, why would the Kaiser name someone King of the Outremer while that person hasn't even ever have been a count?

And when did you follow me Herr Helmut? I thought Duke Ansehelm send me on my own.

Gert von Runstede,

You will have to ask the Kaiser why he appointed me. It is his right to name whomever he wishes.

*Lothar raises an eyebrow.*

But Jan, Clause 6 of the Outremer states that the "King will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count." It does not say Crusader Count, and as you have so clearly stated, Crusader Counts and Counts are not the same thing. If you are correct, there are no regular Counts in Outremer, thus the King should be setting the build queues for ALL of Outremer provinces, and Crusader Counts get to manage nothing.

Of course, this confusion would make more sense if you would only acknowledge that Crusader Counts and Counts are the same for legal purposes of province management.

Yes, but clause 6 first uses the title Crusader Count and then shortens it for effeciency. Since it already named the title, that title then applies to the whole clause. This is common legal procedure.

Any more attempts to create an issue out of thin air or can we move on to other matters?

Helmut Von Hamburg

"I broke camp immediately,when i heard about my little brother being named as the King of Outremer. I thank mein Duke, for Hamburg, apparently i didnt get the title handed to me before i dispatched from Russia. Nevertheless, i would like to appeal to Kaiser, for not making such a large mistake of appointing my brother to an task,which his experience is not enough to manage it."

Helmut sits down and starts groaning to his servants,for not getting the information about countship of Hamburg.

Helmut,

Since the Kaiser is not here, you will have to write him a letter.

And "Count" is a legal efficiency that refers to all Counts of the Reich, whether they are normal Counts, Crusader Counts, Rainbow Horseshoe Counts, or Terrible Rabid Alpine Chicken Counts. A Count is a Count, I don't care how many words you put in front of it!

Yes but the law cares. The law makes that distinction however much you wish it were not so. If you believe there is a dispute in the law, then appeal to the Kaiser to arbitrate a rules dispute. Or maybe the Prince can do it in the Kaiser's absence.

Either way, this issue seems to be unresolvable without legislation or an arbitration. Provide one or both of those or move on.

"Well my dear brother. Arent there anyone here who represents the Kaiser when he is away? Or cant the Kaiser of Holy Roman empire afford clerk´s to write down what the nobles are saying?"

Helmut sits down mumbling to himself

"Incompetent, the lot of you."

Helmut, although Jan may not seem like the ideal choice for his position I have strong faith in him and the Kaiser obviously shares this faith. Jan has fought exceptionally well in the Holy Land since his arrival and has been a valuable asset to the Kingdom of Outremer. It would not be wise to contest his position as I can think of no better candidate for the job.

Right, that's just %^$@ing it!!

Will someone second CA 12.2!!!??

We clearly need it.

Jan I agree with the wording about setting build queue's if there is no COUNT.

Can someone shed light on how a noble becomes a Crusader Count in order to qualify as a House representative in Outremer!!??

In my mind if there is no Crusader Count to govern the province then fine, the King, as the legislation wording states, should then set the queue. What I will not have is the ability of the King to assign someone else as Governor of a province that is MINE.
It can sit vacant until a Duke is prepared to agree with one of his nobles to go out to Outremer as the House representative.

That should solve this I believe!! At least then the Dukes are able to control and NEVER lose their inherent right to govern their specific holding in Outremer.

Can that be a possible solution?

Jens Hummel:

Helmut, I quite agree. Incidentally, I believe that there is a piece of legislation, CA 12.2, that still needs seconding that I believe meshes with your opinion perfectly...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Privateerkev

Yes, but clause 6 first uses the title Crusader Count and then shortens it for effeciency. Since it already named the title, that title then applies to the whole clause. This is common legal procedure.

Any more attempts to create an issue out of thin air or can we move on to other matters?

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That is the weakest thing I have heard given your attempt at distinguishing between the two as a defence.

Nice try, but no dice. You want to live by technicalities Jan then you can die by technicalities.

Something my own lawyers have come to love in me.

For goodness sake! Let's get to the more important issues, like not getting killed by our enemies! I second CA 12.2!

I don't care of the wording or how we destroy Vilnius, just that the city is taken and the worms inside are murdered.

Duke Arnold,

Your position is far more sensible than Lothars. As for your question as to how someone becomes a Crusader Count, the Charter empowers me to bestow the title each Diet. I bestow the title according to House accept with Edessa.

If you disagree with CA 12.5, then simply vote against it. Or don't vote at all. But at least your not contesting my right to set build queues in Outremer.

I just disagree with your wording that I set build queues that are not occupied by "counts" because that is not supported in the Outremer Charter. Again, I welcome having this issue resolved by arbitration.

I agree, let us vote on this issue an be done with it. I request that two Electors second Charter Amendment 12.7 and that everyone else votes for it, to ensure that the proper intent of Outremer is restored.

Lothar, your CA will still not provide for Dukes to build in Outremer. Since this is a dispute with the rules, I suggest we have the Kaiser or the Prince rule on it.

Now whats next to talk about?

Very well, Jan. I was attempting to keep the Amendment minimal to prevent from adding yet another rule to the Charter. On the off chance that any Electors can actually follow your incoherent logic, I shall alter the Amendment to make it more blatant.

Charter Amendment 12.7: Clause 6 of the Charter of Outremer (Charter Amendment 9.1) shall be amended as follows:

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6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusading Counts. These will also be appointed at every Diet, by the new King. The Dukes and the Emperor will set the build queue for any provinces without a Count which is allocated to their control.

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King Jan,

That is what I am saying.

I wont support CA 12.5, as it is going to sever ties with the House's and in affect goes against the whole theme of the Charter in my view.

For example:

If there is no count for you to allocate to the House specified Province of Damascus, then it is vacant and you set the queue as the legislation states.

Your wording allows you to put another noble from another house in Damascus and that is completely unlawful as it is my Province as Duke of Austria.

That is why CA 12.5 should not go through.

CA 12.4, I can live with, but with a limited time on the appointment. The Kaiser could re confirm the postion every 20 years for example.

Please note the original CA had the position as a 10 year appointment re set at the beginning of each Diet session by the Kaiser.

That's about the final take I am having on this subject.

Hans shakes his head at the deliberations

Good lords,
Instead of bashing each other's heads in, how about finding some kind of middle ground that everyone can be happy with?

I do not think Jan would have a problem with amending 12.5 to read that in the case that no governor can be found as crusader count for an outremer region, the Duke whose house the settlement is allocated to may chose to either let the King settle the queues or allow him to appoint a governor from another house.

"Well it seems that Von Kastillien did the deed. I dont think i have anything to add, specially becouse my lazy servants cant provide me with enough information about anything these days. I will come back to vote and then get back to Russia."

Helmut leaves the Diet. As he reaches the stairs outside the building,he violently pushes his head scribe straight down the stairs and then charges his watch dog, Jan against the mangled scribe. Once he reaches the poor man Helmut says with a determined voice.

" Make me look ridiculous once more, maggot and i will have you skinned alive."

*Fritz rises to his feet again*

von Runstede, I note you have not answered my question regarding the Edicts proposed by my brother Ansehelm. On the other hand, I can see why in the midst of this flood of pre-litigation.

Gentlemen, let me sum up what I am seeing here.

We have endless legal arguments due, in most part, to the appointment of my cousin Jan to the Kingship of Outremer against the wishes of our beloved comrade King Salier.

We have more proposals on laws than on actions in this Diet, a situation that will lead to the weakening of the Empire as we squabble over technicalities and let our armies suffer for it.

*Fritz pauses and closes his eyes for a moment, takes a breath, then launches into a fist-waving tirade*

And we have an Emperor who sits in Eastern luxury, basking in the smoke of who knows what Eastern herbs, relieving himself in the embrace of who knows what Byzantine women! I cannot think of a worse situation all the way back to Marcus Antonius and that wench Cleopatra!

Brother he may be, but his indolence in Byzantium with the infidels *Fritz shudders* gives me full rights to denounce his wicked ways!

*Fritz seats himself heavily, glowers around the room for a moment, then resumes looking at his feet*

Shaking his head with a large grin at the departing figure of Helmut Arnold continues unfazed after Fritz's small tantrum

I second CA 12.7.

I would certainly be more favourable to Jan's CA if he was to change the wording to what Hans just suggested, but it must remove the ability of the King to appoint Counts from outside the House it is allocated to.

Looking at Fritz with a look of pained amazement

"Denounce his wisked ways"....where do you come up with such Bollocks Fritz?

Lothar,

I am pleased to see that you are finally admitting that you were wrong. Your need to put forward a CA shows how weak your initial argument was. I will of course vote against what would be a micro-management nightmare but I applaud that you are finally following the law instead of just making stuff up. I am still more than willing to have the rules dispute arbitrated by the Kaiser or Prince is your CA does not pass. Or, they could rule now and make your need for a CA moot. Either way, I am satisified that we are getting around to what we can do legally instead of what we wish to do in our dreams.

Hans,

The Outremer Charter already provides for me to set build queues in crusader counties without crusader counts. CA 12.5 would not change that. Even if it passes, I still need the people. Without the people, I still set the build queues.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: To be fair to Ituralde, do we even know IC that the Kaiser is passed out stoned on the lap of a hooker? :laugh4:

Is that not the entire point of the alternate wording I provided? To give Dukes a choice over whether they wish to see their county given to some noble from another house rather than having the King manage it in case no crusader count from their house can be found? It is would be fair for both parties and certainly appeal to a larger majority of this diet.

I will second CA 12.7 as well, I do not wish to have Bavarian Land ruled by an Imperial apointee. This does not mean that I will not listen to the needs of the KOTO, I look foreward to working with him to ensure the safety of Jerusalem.