Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Didz

Well that might be true in Australia, but under English Law that simply is not the case.

---

I do not believe this is the case and I can't see how it would be different in Britain. A sales contract with the shop is a totally different contract regarding its sale. The EULA is a contract to protect the intellectual property (IP) rights of software developers. Check with your consumer body if in doubt.

You are right in one respect that a EULA is a grey area and as yet as far as I am aware has not been challenged in an Australian court.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Didz

As I explained before, for the license agreement to be legally binding it would have to be presented, read and agreed to prior to the customer paying for the game.

---

* Just clicking “I agree” probably binds you to the contract.

* You don’t have to physically sign anything. Some software packages, you may be agreeing to the contract when you remove the shrink-wrap on the package.

* Doesn't matter that you can’t understand licence agreements, onus is on the consumer. You either agree to the terms or you can’t use the software.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Didz

Right, I've just spoken to Consumer Direct and they have referred this issue to the UK Office of Fair Trading for a ruling. So, hopefully we will get some sort of official response applicable to the UK in the next couple of days.

---

I made a complaint to the ACCC (Australian Competition & Consumer Commission) regarding the state of M2TW some time back but I think they ignored me!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

Oh come on... There's no way to change the copy protection mechanism with a patch because the disc just won't have the right format.
1.3 is still SafeDisc protected and for those who want to be sure, I used ProtectionID to confirm it:

---

Well it does seem obvious in hindsight. Nevertheless can't help feel big brother is watching and feeling paranoid about everything and all b/c of Kingdoms. Well that does it. I'm not buying Ecco the Dolphin.

I dont mind software lurking around, what i do mind is that i cant run kingdoms unless i try about 15 times which takes about 30 minutes, it says im using a backup disk or cant validate in the time limit or something. So back to the shop its going for a refund.

I do use an old creative labs dvd drive but on the box it states dvd rom that can read dual layer disks needed but nothing about the speed.

Swoosh So - try updating your drive's firmware - sometimes that helps in this sort of situation.

"Unable to authenticate original disc within time limit."
SecuROM™ has determined you are trying to start the protected application with a backup copy or clone disc. Please refer to the following procedure to remedy:

Please disable all emulators, insert the original disc and re-try.
If the problem persists, please send a SecuROM™ analysis file to support@securom.com (see "Support Info" section on how to do that).


thats from scurerom website help section! lol i buy a full product and go for help and im told im using a clone disc! btw im not sure what firmware is i have a creative labs 6x encore i believe. Ive never had a problem with it with any game even medieval2 untill now. Pretty rediculous it found the game on the disc well enough to install it but now cant run a damn game unless i spend 30 minutes just clicking a damn exe file.

This is a really foolish move by CA. They secretly install malicious software that can't be removed and makes other programs not function correctly.

This is making CA *lose sales*. Some folks I know have decided that instead of paying CA money for a version that installs a rootkit on their machine, they'll simply download the rootkit free version...for free.

Others (and myself) are simply going to hold off on buying Kingdoms until they fix this issue, and will purchase it as soon as they do.

If no fix is forthcoming, well, there are plenty of other games on there. I refuse to install software on my machine that I do not want, that is going to interfere with programs I do want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swoosh So

thats from scurerom website help section! lol i buy a full product and go for help and im told im using a clone disc! btw im not sure what firmware is i have a creative labs 6x encore i believe. Ive never had a problem with it with any game even medieval2 untill now. Pretty rediculous it found the game on the disc well enough to install it but now cant run a damn game unless i spend 30 minutes just clicking a damn exe file.

---

I had the same problem yesterday with NWN2. It wouldn't run until I turned daemon tools off. Surely I don't need to point out to the SecuROM folks that there are plenty of legitimate uses for disk images.

i tried it also on my new pc with a fresh install of windows xp and just the sims2 installed, same result.
It would be ironic if i had to use a crack to run a legitamite version of the game, ill try again tonight with the most up to date dvd drivers i can find.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapi

As I said, it remains until challenged ~:)

---

It won't remain on my computer. I have cancelled my order for Kingdoms. I'm not having a rootkit installed that cannot be removed. If CA sees fit to provide a removal tool I'll reconsider, but for now, CA has challenged us and I'm refusing to play their game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swoosh So

Please disable all emulators, insert the original disc and re-try. If the problem persists, please send a SecuROM™ analysis file to support@securom.com (see "Support Info" section on how to do that).

---

This message can mean that you have emulation software (like alcohol or daemon tools) installed on your PC. IIRC Safedisc4 and Securom check for those programs - not that you're using them - just if you have em, and if you do, you cant use your game.

Can people please stop saying CA all the time ??
Seriously, they got nothing to do with this, developers rarely have a say on copy protection.
If you wanna vent your anger, pick the one that did put it on Kingdoms, SEGA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpencerH

This message can mean that you have emulation software (like alcohol or daemon tools) installed on your PC. IIRC Safedisc4 and Securom check for those programs - not that you're using them - just if you have em, and if you do, you cant use your game.

---

Sorry but that is just not true in this case.

I have Daemon tools installed and I'm running Kingdoms just fine.

Let's all try to stick to the facts and avoid this very useful thread getting confused with speculation and hearsay.

I for one am monitoring this situation very closely, despite having made a decision to install the expansion and take a risk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

Sorry but that is just not true in this case.

I have Daemon tools installed and I'm running Kingdoms just fine.

Let's all try to stick to the facts and avoid this very useful thread getting confused with speculation and hearsay.

I for one am monitoring this situation very closely, despite having made a decision to install the expansion and take a risk.

---

I said CAN HAVE and IIRC in trying to answer a message that Swoosh So didnt understand at all. Maybe you should monitor the english language along with "the situation". Safedisc4 definitely looked for alcohol and I thought I recalled (perhaps wrongly) that Securom did too. MEA ******* CULPA!

I boycotted Bioshock, but bought and installed Kingdoms too late to do anything. I suppose I'll have to be parinoid and check out every new game I buy now. *sigh*

I don't mind the software, actually. I'm not all that worried about the security of this computer. It's the principle of the matter. So I suppose if EB2 comes out for Kingdoms it will be worth it, I suppose. Because I'd gladly sell my soul for EB2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpencerH

MEA ******* CULPA!

---

LOL!

apologies if I came across a little sanctimonious there, I didn't mean to

I've read the whole of this thread and in doing so heard a lot of scary things about Securom, many of which are very difficult to verify

so my intention was just to politely request that people refrain from posting things which were not backed up by actual experience, for the benefit of those of us who are worried about this and trying to get to the truth of the matter

now I'm off to monitor the English language

laters

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

* Just clicking “I agree” probably binds you to the contract.

* You don’t have to physically sign anything. Some software packages, you may be agreeing to the contract when you remove the shrink-wrap on the package.

* Doesn't matter that you can’t understand licence agreements, onus is on the consumer. You either agree to the terms or you can’t use the software.

---

That's simply not true. Law trumps EULA. Every single time. It's as simple as that, really. Yes, you agree to it, and you agree to bind yourself to it. HOWEVER, if what is said is not valid under your legal system, then it's worth absolutely nothing.

For example, if someone writes "it's illegal to share this software with friends" in the EULA, and you hit the agree button, thus binding you to that. However, since the law says that you can share it with your friend, then that EULA can go burn.

Btw(and completely off topic), I agreed to an EULA that prohibited me from using that software to create biological, chemical or nuclear weapons....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

....it was iTunes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraggenmor

@AirFix - Thanks! DO you know if that will also remove the registry entires that SecuROM leaves behind?

---

You are welcome.
I do not know, sorry

To put something with substance into the legal issue.

Company behaviors considered illegal by state Attorneys General:

1) State of New York
Employing deceptive methods to prevent users from detecting and removing installed software, including: not making the software accessible in the "All Programs" or "Programs" list, hiding the software in folders not usually associated with programs, not listing the software in the "Add/Remove Programs" utility, not providing an uninstall utility for the software, and reinstalling the software after a user has deleted it.

2) State of Texas
Secretly installing files on a user's computer before the user has consented to the installation.

Failing to provide an uninstall utility for files secretly installed before a user has consented to the installation.

3) People of the State of California
Failing to adequately disclose that DRM software uses cloaking technology to hide itself on users’ computers.

Source: http://www.cdt.org/privacy/spyware/2...ment-state.php

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TB666

Can people please stop saying CA all the time ??
Seriously, they got nothing to do with this, developers rarely have a say on copy protection.
If you wanna vent your anger, pick the one that did put it on Kingdoms, SEGA.

---

SEGA doesn't read these forums. CA does. If CA hears enough people complaining about these things, they'll take it to SEGA and let them know it's costing them sales. Then things may change.

Ah yes that tactic worked fine during RTW.
Attack CA for activision's mistake.
Yep, worked perfectly

Not.
All it did was pushing them further into their shell.
It wasn't until people cooled down and stopped blaming them for choices they did not do that they became open again.
And SEGA does read the forums.

So stop blaming CA and blame SEGA.

How do you know SEGA reps read this particular forum and care about the content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

How do you know SEGA reps read this particular forum and care about the content?

---

Because they have stated that they read the forums and since the Securom issue has popped up on the .com the chances are doubled.
Now if they actually care about the Securom issue however is another matter and is something we will see in either 2 responses, 1. they release tools to remove it or 2. they don't.
Only they can decide.

And if they happened to miss this particular thread then chances are higher that CA haven't.
And what will/do they see when they look at this thread ??
Them getting attacked for something they have no control over.
Again.
Not only is it a nasty reminder of how things were when RTW was released but it shows that once again the fanbase can't tell the difference between what CA does and a companies like SEGA does.
Are we gonna have people write to Gamespot again only to get an answer back that they didn't wanna hear ??
So shall we stop this madness before it goes out of control(again) and stop saying "CA did this, CA did that", stop beating that dead horse and actually complain to the real people behind this decision ??
I think we should.:2thumbsup:

Allright, I can install without internetconnection, clear. Assuming that securom is with Kingdoms, what use does it have one a PC that has no internet, they can't update nor report to Sega... so what harm could it do or what use does it have on a PC without internet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

Allright, I can install without internetconnection, clear. Assuming that securom is with Kingdoms, what use does it have one a PC that has no internet, they can't update nor report to Sega... so what harm could it do or what use does it have on a PC without internet?

---

It never required a internet connection.
That was Bioshock.
Kingdoms comes when you install the game, with the internet or without.

In any event, I wasn't attacking CA. I just told them I wasn't buying Kingdoms because of this. Not an attack, but something I'd want to know if I were them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TB666

So shall we stop this madness before it goes out of control(again) and stop saying "CA did this, CA did that", stop beating that dead horse and actually complain to the real people behind this decision ??
I think we should

---

No, that's hair-splitting the difference between these two companies, when they're actually tied up in the same business operation.

It's entirely accurate and reasonable for me to say "CA isn't going to get my money for the Kingdoms expansion unless I hear that they're doing something about the files SecureRom leaves behind on my computer". That is, unless you think CA never gets a penny for sales of the expansion. If they're profiting from sales, then they're involved in this.

CA might not have known the DRM was going to go out with the expansion, but now that they do know it's there, they have a responsibility to work with Sega on resolving the issue (if they care to). If they don't care about it, that's fine too... there are plenty of other games out there I can buy. This isn't only about Sega, it's about CA's reputation being on the line too, and whether or not I pay attention to future releases by that company, whoever their publisher is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

Allright, I can install without internetconnection, clear. Assuming that securom is with Kingdoms, what use does it have one a PC that has no internet, they can't update nor report to Sega... so what harm could it do or what use does it have on a PC without internet?

---

The "harm" it does is subjective, and it depends on how you feel about a program installing hidden files, that not only aren't automatically removed when you uninstall the game, but that you actually can't remove yourself by any normal method. Potentially, it's a back door for hackers who might be able to exploit the registry entries. Potentially, it's a future headache for anti-virus programs and rootkit detectors that will flag the file because it resembles known rootkit methods. So it depends on whether you want to allow this on your computer, and deal with any future hassles because of it.

My personal take on it, is that it's a nasty, arrogant form of copy protection, but it's not as nasty as true rootkit-like DRM like Starforce, which Ubi (among others) was forced to drop. If CA/Sega came out and said "we'll release a utility that completely removes SecureRom after the game is uninstalled," then I'd be comfortable buying Kingdoms. So far... silence.... so my money stays in my wallet. Everyone will have to make their own decisions about this.

P.S. on the "official" SecureRom removal tips posted earlier... I'd like some verification that it's a clean wipe, and doesn't leave hidden registry keys. I'm certainly not going to take SecureRom's word for it. And a solution for this really should come from CA/Sega, since they're the immediate cause of the problem (it's their disk I'd be loading into my drive to install this crap), and they should be made to understand that they're risking lost sales because of it.

Hey davebaby thanks alot changing the drivers worked, btw guys what an excelltent expansion this is single player* you would have to be crazy to miss out on the excellent crusades campaign for a start just cause of some registry entry!

@Zenicetus, so if I understand it good enough it means that it actually only makes problems with a PC with internet, I mean hackers and firewalls... So if you dont have internet on your PC those 2 problems are not an issue, so apart from the fact that it installs stuff without letting you know those 2 are the only or main problems? IF thats it ill buy the game when the price drops, play it one day entirely and return it if i dont like it...

BTW: You've did you intentionally miswrote your sig? if so what does the last word mean...

OTQ: IS kingdoms worth it? Is it an improvement of MTW2 and a good game? are there any gamebreaking bugs discovered yet or not?

Quote:

---

OTQ: IS kingdoms worth it? Is it an improvement of MTW2 and a good game? are there any gamebreaking bugs discovered yet or not?

---

Yes, yes, and No. You should get it unless the Securom thing really bothers you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Stranger

@Zenicetus, so if I understand it good enough it means that it actually only makes problems with a PC with internet, I mean hackers and firewalls... So if you dont have internet on your PC those 2 problems are not an issue, so apart from the fact that it installs stuff without letting you know those 2 are the only or main problems? IF thats it ill buy the game when the price drops, play it one day entirely and return it if i dont like it...

---

If you don't have your gaming PC hooked up to the Internet, then I guess you don't have to worry about anyone hacking it for back door access. The hidden files might still be flagged by current or future anti-virus software, but maybe you're not running any if you're not online?

Quote:

---

BTW: You've did you intentionally miswrote your sig? if so what does the last word mean...

---

That's what one of the Mongol generals says in M2TW, when you click his icon on the strategy map -- "fear is a weapon, wise generals use well", but the hiliarious voice acting sounds like something out of an old Fu Manchu or Charlie Chan movie, where the villain swallows all the "L"'s. I just wrote out what I heard. :laugh4: I would have loved to have been there, during that recording session for the game. I'll bet they were all cracking up.

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2996/threadhn9.jpg