Muslims Rally Worldwide to Show Their Hatred of Jews and Americans

I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you are trying to say there. Could you please explain why you think the US/Israel are being targeted, and what the last part of your statement means?

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Originally Posted by kamikhaan

A terrible comback, CR. First of all, I am NOT apologizing for the actions of terrorists and oppressors.

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You were making excuses for it.

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It is YOU who are just being a tool for blatant racism and bigotry.

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Racism against who, exactly? Iranians? Where have I made racist remarks? Bigotry - against Muslims? Please show me where I said we should use this incident to assume all Muslims worldwide share this 'Death to Israel/Great Satan/Flavor of the week' view.

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I am pointing out how the west were the ones who aggravated the situation in the first place, by agreeing on Balfour behind the backs of Arabs. Tell me, CR, who was the scapegoat muslims were looking for between 1921 and 1947? Nobody. It wasn't until the UN basically plopped down a Jewish government into the area, overruling the few Arabic nations within the UN, who in the past had sacraficed millions of lives to help the west against the Ottomans, that there was major conflict between the Jews and Muslims in the area.

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Oh, I'm sure it aggravated them. I would argue about the legitimacy of their grievances, but that's not really important.

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And since going to war with the UN wasn't really an option, they took the alternative,

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You mean the alternative other than peace, and a larger Palestinian state than they would have get today. They had a choice, and they chose war. It was not Palestinians inside Israel who declared war, but neighboring states, angry at the mere existence of Israel, which had done them no harm.

And over and over again they have chosen war. War over peace, war over progress, war over prosperity.

For decades and generations they have chosen war. Extermination of Israel has become the number one goal of the Palestinians, it seems. It is only after have repeated humiliations have neighboring states backed off. Reclaiming land, right of return? Used as excuses. Poor excuses, at that. They want to 'liberate' territory only ever ruled by Israel or the Ottomans.

Read a bit about Nasser and the 1967 war. He and his Arab contemporaries stated the reason for war was to liquidate Israel, to address the grievance of 'its existence', and that Israel would be annihilated. The lame excuses the Palestinians use while they daily attempt murder were thought of later to fool naive westerners.

What kind of mindset must one have to seek the extermination of a people for so many years? Israel pulled out of Gaza recently; what have Palestinians done with it? They have turned it into a military base to attack Israel from. When that is the thanks one gets for a unilateral gesture of peace, how can one support the palestinians?

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only to find out that the west was giving Isreal advanced weaponry and other technology to make it nigh impossible to defeat them.

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Horsedung.

CR

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Originally Posted by Megalos

I'm sorry I don't quite understand what you are trying to say there. Could you please explain why you think the US/Israel are being targeted, and what the last part of your statement means?

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Well they attacked the world trade centre the pentagon and suppoesdly the white house, sounds like a few real pillars to me, trade, security, and government, and that of the current leading country, quite a stunt no? If you are particulary powerless that really feels good, makes your own government a piece of cake. Didn't work though. Israel is still america's little baby there, being the only democracy, sounds like a alternative. Israel ain't no peach but it isn't exactly like the entire region behaves otherwise.

Sorry, I don't know if I confused you a little there.


You just explained the attacks on the US, not why you think the US is being targeted, apart from the bit about Israel.


But the attacks on America did not happen because of Israel nor wholly the support that America gives Israel. Remember that Bin-Laden was an ally of the US during the cold war, long after the re-introductin of Israel as a nation.

OBL wasn't an ally. We helped Afghan Mujihadeen, and he separately and with no networking with us, also fought the Soviets.

So yes, we had the same immediate goal, but to say we had an alliance is too much.

CR

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Originally Posted by Megalos

Sorry, I don't know if I confused you a little there.


You just explained the attacks on the US, not why you think the US is being targeted, apart from the bit about Israel.


But the attacks on America did not happen because of Israel nor wholly the support that America gives Israel. Remember that Bin-Laden was an ally of the US during the cold war, long after the re-introductin of Israel as a nation.

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That is kinda tricky you know, no such thing as order in chaos. If you think there is, fine, but you will always need those that don't, keep it up ~;)

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OBL wasn't an ally. We helped Afghan Mujihadeen, and he separately and with no networking with us, also fought the Soviets.

So yes, we had the same immediate goal, but to say we had an alliance is too much.

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True ,definately not an alliance , the CIA specificly did not have any dealings with non-afghan fighters in the afghan conflict , they gave the money and arms to the ISI and the ISI dealt with the non-afghan groups . .....But hold on thats networking isn't it , so scratch the no networking and then its true .

Oh and the money raised at the 30+MAK offices in America was individual donations not donations from the American government so they are in the clear there too .

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Originally Posted by Megalos

Granted alot of the deaths in particular Iraq are from paramiltary action, but would that paramilitary action been there if the US hadn't gone oil drilling?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://journalism.berkeley.edu/proje...-casualty.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/mostly.html

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3962969.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4830782.stm

http://icasualties.org/oif

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/ira...es/casualties/



Glad you decided to use your common sense


Megalos

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if it wasnt for my common sense this wouldnt be here would it?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

OBL wasn't an ally. We helped Afghan Mujihadeen, and he separately and with no networking with us, also fought the Soviets.

So yes, we had the same immediate goal, but to say we had an alliance is too much.

CR

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I stand corrected.

But the point I was trying to make still stands. Israel and the US' stand on Israel are not the only reasons it is being targeted.

The US is certainly not helping themselves by doing the things they are doing. They are giving the Islamic extremists even more ammo to recruit impressionable young Muslims into their ranks. I'm sure you all must agree that given todays climate, there are far more potential terrorists than there were before the second gulf war?

There surely has to be a way for things to get better, otherwise we are all just waiting for a nuke to drop and the start of WWIII.

With the current political climate in Pakistan and the fears that civil war might erupt in the next couple of years there must be a real chance that Pakistans nuclear power might be at the disposal of an extremist government in the near future.

And with Iran trying to go nuclear for supposed power, why doesn't the US and any wetsern government for that matter, try helping them with an alternate power source if they take down their Uranium enrichment plants? At least that way, If Iran refuses, the world knows what Irans true intentions are.

It doesn't matter who is in the right or who is in the wrong, what's done is done and there is no going back. Israel are not suddenly going to pack their bags and say fair enough we give in, the arabic/persian states are not suddenly going to say that they welcome Israel as their new neighbor, but there has got to be a point where somebody gets through to these peoples thick heads that things aren't going to go all their own way, and that the only way forward is to accept the things that went on in the past and try and move forward through diplomacy. As it stands the US should have been the intermediary voice between all the different factions as it was before the 2nd gulf war, it being the richest most powerful state in the world, but it seems that the US has really burnt it's bridges with most of the Arabic/persian states, so how can it get back on side now? (yes i know, relations between the States and Iran/Syria have never been great, but they have certainly been alot better than they currently are).

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

How?, why? would proffesional armies continuosly kill civs? maybe a few innocent lives here and there, but it cannot reach the amount of civs killed purposely by terrorists/insurgents/palistinians....

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Proffesional armies have been killing civilians in huge numbers since 1939 (and before to be sure). Numbers that exist only in the wildest fantasies of the sickest terrorist minds.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

...these three peoples combined outweigh anything the US or Israel did, and I do admit US and Israel (mostly US methinks) had their fair share of civ casualties, but from north africa to indonesia these guys (generaly terrorists) wreak havoc on civs deemed "infidels".

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I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians. (This relates directly to the topic of the thread. As for Muslim against Muslim atrocities, that is another matter for another thread. A topic well worth pursuing.)

Well said, Megalos.

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I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians.

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Yet still less than the number of terrorists and the like - ie not civilians that the US and Israel have killed. And we don't try to kill civilians.

CR

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Palestinians have very good, rational reasons for their hate. Like that they were kicked out of their homes that they own and hold the legal deeds to by Israel. Anyone who had that happen to them would hate Israel just as much as the Palestinians and their Muslim brothers do.

I don't like how Palestinians always get demonized just because they are Muslim, whilst Israel gets a free pass for no legitimate reason for it's shady part in the situation.

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Articulately and accurately stated.
Quoted for truth!

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Proffesional armies have been killing civilians in huge numbers since 1939 (and before to be sure). Numbers that exist only in the wildest fantasies of the sickest terrorist minds.

I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians. (This relates directly to the topic of the thread. As for Muslim against Muslim atrocities, that is another matter for another thread. A topic well worth pursuing.)

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Italics on "continueosly" not have they.


terrorists/insurgents/palistinians killed more than Israel or US. And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!:laugh4: thats a point that noone can disprove IMO.

especially since the main killer of muslims are muslims IE. insurgents, terrorists.

:feedback:

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

And we don't try to kill civilians.

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I'm sure the civilians killed have a very positive feeling about that.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Italics on "continueosly" not have they.

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I think proffesional armies have been continuously killing civilians for ages. And doing it very well I might add.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

terrorists/insurgents/palistinians killed more than Israel or US.

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The topic of this thread is specific to Muslims vis a vis the US and Israel. That being true, I stand by what I have said.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!:laugh4: thats a point that noone can disprove IMO.

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I'm sorry, I don't really follow the sentence.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

especially since the main killer of muslims are muslims IE. insurgents, terrorists.

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Through the course of history I'm not sure that's true. (Nor am I sure it's not.) But it is not the topic being discussed here. I would be glad to hear your points on this in a separate thread.

Beirut remember that old saying about arguing with idoits? That logic applies here

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Beirut remember that old saying about arguing with idoits? That logic applies here

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I never argue with idoits. My aunt was Idoitian and I liked her a great deal.

As for idiots, I am afeared at times that I am the only one here. :embarassed:

Why does everyone insist on insulting others directly but not putting their names so they wont get into trouble at least name names instead of being a jackass....:drama2:



"And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!"

dont try to keep that out. simple.

think proffesional armies have been continuously killing civilians for ages. And doing it very well I might add.

Why do proffesional armies such as israel and US continuosly kill civs on purpose? get it now? terrorists on the other hand do, and are more succesfull.

well see I respect people who put thoughts in there opinons instead of just being spoon fed

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Why does everyone insist on insulting others directly but not putting their names so they wont get into trouble at least name names instead of being a jackass....:drama2:

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Shhhh! I think he was talking about me.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

"And dont try to keep the "terrorists kill more civs" out!!"
Why do proffesional armies such as israel and US continuosly kill civs on purpose? get it now? terrorists on the other hand do, and are more succesfull.

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Killing civilians is a tool of war whose usage has neither gone out of style nor been forgotten by modern generals.

Of course terrorists kill civilians. First, it's easier. Second, it spreads terror, hence; terrorism. Whether they are more successful at it than professional armies, I think not. If for no other reason than they lack the logistics required for mass killings. (There are, of course, exceptions.)

In any case, the distinction between "on purpose" and "by mistake" may be thick and juicy on this side of the pond, but rest assured, over there, dead is dead and whoever did it, did it. If Joe Muslim wakes up to a bombed out house and six dead kids, I'll put a week's pay the difference means snail snot to him when he's digging graves.

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Yet still less than the number of terrorists and the like - ie not civilians that the US and Israel have killed. And we don't try to kill civilians.

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True , they don't try and kill civilians , they manage to do it without much effort at all .

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I still submit that the US and Israel have killed far more Muslim civilians than the peoples you mentioned have killed US and Israeli civilians.

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And? You've been making the same defense over and over, yet it just doesn't hold up.

Both sides have reason to be angry with the other. (You bring up supposed body counts and I'll bring up the Twin Towers et al)

However - and this is the point of the thread - these demonstrations of hate highlight the differences between the two cultures.

After the World Trade Center was attacked George Bush immediately stated that Muslims in general were not the enemy. In Iran, and countless other muslim nations, hatred of Americans and Jews is encouraged and taught.


Now then, every time someone posts a thread about how the muslim world treats women and minorities, how they teach their children hatred, or some other backwards element of the culture; the relativists try their hardest to explain it all away.

In this thread, for example, the excuse is that a lot of muslims have been killed by Americans and Israelis. Well, a lot of Americans and Israelis have been killed by muslims.

Does any of that excuse these worldwide demonstrations of hatred, especially taught to children? Would it be acceptable to you if these were Canadians calling for the death of all muslims?

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Why do proffesional armies such as israel and US continuosly kill civs on purpose? get it now? terrorists on the other hand do, and are more succesfull.

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No they are most certainly not more effective in that area. And as you ignored me before, I'll give you the numbers again, plain and simple:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualt...06_Lebanon_War

Israel civilian casualties:

43 dead
33 seriously wounded
68 moderately wounded
1,388 lightly wounded
2,773 treated for shock and anxiety

Lebanese civilian casualties:

1,191 dead
4,409 injured

Or, said in another way, Israel killed more than 27 times as many civilians as Hezbollah did.

The source of the Israel numbers come from israel's foreign ministry, so there's no way to question those numbers. The lebanese numbers are the UN numbers. Give or take a hundred on those.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

And? You've been making the same defense over and over, yet it just doesn't hold up.

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I'm not defending anyone. I'm just explaining, from my point of view, why the sutuation exists.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Both sides have reason to be angry with the other. (You bring up supposed body counts and I'll bring up the Twin Towers et al)

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Yes, of course.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

However - and this is the point of the thread - these demonstrations of hate highlight the differences between the two cultures.

After the World Trade Center was attacked George Bush immediately stated that Muslims in general were not the enemy. In Iran, and countless other muslim nations, hatred of Americans and Jews is encouraged and taught.

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Yes, of course.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Now then, every time someone posts a thread about how the muslim world treats women and minorities, how they teach their children hatred, or some other backwards element of the culture; the relativists try their hardest to explain it all away.

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I might be trying to explain it, but I am not trying to explain it away. It is important to know the difference between understanding someone's behaviour, and endorsing it.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

In this thread, for example, the excuse is that a lot of muslims have been killed by Americans and Israelis. Well, a lot of Americans and Israelis have been killed by muslims.

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Yes, of course.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Does any of that excuse these worldwide demonstrations of hatred, especially taught to children? Would it be acceptable to you if these were Canadians calling for the death of all muslims?

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Of course not. I believe you would have a hard time finding the word "acceptable" in any post I have written here.

I think you are missing my point, and perhaps that is my fault for not writing clearly enough. I do not support these demonstrations. I do not support kids with guns being taught to hate by religious leaders or the state. I do not support Islamic extremism. But, I also do not support the idea that anyone should be surprised that these demonstrations take place. If one reads their history, it is plain to see that the US and Israel (and Britain, and France) have been (bad word) around with the Arabs states and the Muslims for the past century. Redrawing borders at will, displacing populations, taking financial advantage of the oil situation, plotting coups, using CIA dirty tricks, endlessly lording over the area, it goes on and on.

My only point in all of this is that no one should be surprised how things have turned out. And no one should stand on a moral pedestal and say "Oh my! They hate us. What have we ever done to them?"

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In Iran, and countless other muslim nations, hatred of Americans and Jews is encouraged and taught.

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Is it ? I thought it was hatred of American foriegn policies and the existance of the State of Israel . Which is a big difference from hatred of Americans and Jews .
Just to remind you Panzer this story you started the topic with is a protest against an ongoing illegal action , illegal actions deserve to be protested against .

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

No they are most certainly not more effective in that area. And as you ignored me before, I'll give you the numbers again, plain and simple:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualt...06_Lebanon_War

Israel civilian casualties:

43 dead
33 seriously wounded
68 moderately wounded
1,388 lightly wounded
2,773 treated for shock and anxiety

Lebanese civilian casualties:

1,191 dead
4,409 injured

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I'm pretty sure I answered back.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is it ? I thought it was hatred of American foriegn policies and the existance of the State of Israel . Which is a big difference from hatred of Americans and Jews .

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Originally Posted by original story

In the capital Tehran, hundreds of thousands of people poured into the streets as they chanted "Death to America" and "Death to Israel." Some protesters also burned American and Israeli flags.

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I see "Death to America". Which is a big difference from "Death to American Foreign Policy"

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Originally Posted by Waldinger

I see "Death to America". Which is a big difference from "Death to American Foreign Policy"

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Funny that! You ever notice how the protests are all about israel, and not one bit about the jews as a people? then tell me how do you explain the threads title?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is it ? I thought it was hatred of American foriegn policies and the existance of the State of Israel . Which is a big difference from hatred of Americans and Jews .
Just to remind you Panzer this story you started the topic with is a protest against an ongoing illegal action , illegal actions deserve to be protested against .

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"Nope, nothing to see here folks, move along."

Wow.

You know, Beirut and others brought up valid points in an effort to explain and understand this behavior, but only you seem to be defending it.

And your defense? "There's no hate. Its all just a big lovely demonstration against policy." Talk about having one's head 6 feet in the ground. :shame:

Either you have completely deluded yourself into actually believing that those people shouting "Death to Americans" are in fact only demonstrating against nuanced policy decisions, or you're towing the leftist line with little regard for actual thought.




PS. Why is it that you always seem to be comparing my opinions to those of the Nazis, while it seems I am the one constantly standing up for women, minorities, and religious freedom and against the spread of hate. You're always defending the muslims who are responsible for such injustices.

Lets see, you come down on the side of oppression and hate speech and I oppose it. Who is the Nazi?? :yes:

Says the guy who called the muslims a cancer that needs to be exterminated.

YEP NOT A NAZI THERE :sweatdrop:

Have you not realised there are also progressive forward thinking muslims? or are you still stuck thinking Iran are representatives of Islam/The Muslim Word?

P.S:just for the record, they [Iran] haven't massacred their 25,000 jewish minority yet, i wonder why.

EDIT: just for kicks, from Who the hell are you anyway? A compilation of Orgah summations sticky in the backroom:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Panzerjager *photo* - The fascist resident of the org, anyone who thinks Kaiser (once upon a time Capo) of Arabia is fascist has never met this guy. We assume he lives in America and therefore safe from the vengeful Bundeswehr, but anyway, his loyalty to Nazi Germany and its ideologies, and the strange acceptance of capitalism at its least human, just like Mussolini's fascism, puts him into clashes with moderators and other members often enough. A member of the Right, though an extreme one not entirely in synch with the mainstream, he's notable for being against the current Islamic "menace" against the West, and his subsequent support for Israel. Panzerjager - See Kaiser of Arabia