Kosovo declares independence from Serbia

Brenus tell me my goodness teacher plz;
Serbs from Srebrenica did not belong to same nation like Serbs from Mitrovica?
Maybe they are other Serbs - maybe we should start calling them (I dont know) - KosoSerbs? Or Bosna Serbs are competely different nation than Serbia Serbs - like Pruses and Prussians?

Poles are not occupiers there - they are protecting Serbs. Without Poles, Albanians from Mitrovica would finish with Serbs long time ago.

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that. With full respect for Serbs - 1 polish life is worth for me much more. If Serbs want crush Albanians into Kosovo and recapture province without attacking Poles - I see no problem. But attack on Poles should be strictly punished - especially that they are not soldiers but policemen.

BTW

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By the way, to ignore that the Serbs (and Albanians) have weapons and hand grenades, and LAW as well, is showing a lack of contact with the local population…

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It was (you know what word I mean) UN (here something about his mental predispositions) who ordered not to take weapon. Polish commander would not be so stupid. However you can see who has biggger (male organ here) - Serbs who have to take guns and grenades or poles who don't need them.

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And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that.

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And some people wonder about the mentality of some Germans under the Nazis and how they could accept such rubbish , when here we can see that such :daisy: is still around .

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Brenus tell me my goodness teacher plz;
Serbs from Srebrenica did not belong to same nation like Serbs from Mitrovica?
Maybe they are other Serbs - maybe we should start calling them (I dont know) - KosoSerbs? Or Bosna Serbs are competely different nation than Serbia Serbs - like Pruses and Prussians?

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If you consider nations to be countries, then yes they're different.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Poles are not occupiers there - they are protecting Serbs. Without Poles, Albanians from Mitrovica would finish with Serbs long time ago.

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It doesn't matter what they are, it matters how they're perceived. And they're conisered to be occupiers, so unless they can change that image, they'll be treated as such. Not that I concurr but.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that. With full respect for Serbs - 1 polish life is worth for me much more. If Serbs want crush Albanians into Kosovo and recapture province without attacking Poles - I see no problem. But attack on Poles should be strictly punished - especially that they are not soldiers but policemen.

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And to me 100 Serbian lifes are worth more than 50 Polish ones.
But indeed the death of that Pole shouldn't go unpunished, but no capital punishments or anything, just a searching and trialing of the attacker(s).

“Serbs from Srebrenica did not belong to same nation like Serbs from Mitrovica”
OK. I see. I will try to explain.
Once upon a time it was a country named Yugoslavia.
In this Yugoslavia were living together different people with different languages and different religions.
The leader of Yugoslavia (the last real one) was a communist dictator who, in order to keep the power, played nations against nations, religion against religion… In order to achieve that, he create administrative regions, carefully carve and design in making the relative majority of the “Yugoslav” population a minority.
Each of the Nation had its Republic, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Slovenia with minorities living within each Republic: the Serbs were the most split having to live in all different Republics (Yugoslavia was a Federation).
In doing this, he was making the majority minorities in all others Republics…
To complete his grip on (and control) on the Serb, he devised (in Serbia proper) 2 autonomous regions (Kosovo and Vojivodine) which could block any decision in Serbia, but where Serbia couldn't intervene…
He created artificially another Nation, the Muslims, who were basically Serbs (mainly) or Croats whose ancestors converted to Islam long time ago, during the 500 years of Ottoman occupation…
Then after the collapse of Yugoslavia, the International Community (hand a little bit twisted by Germany) hastily recognised Independence (against the opinion of some legal experts) of Slovenia, Croatia then Bosnia… So, the Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia become part of another country than Serbia… Croats as well, in Bosnia…
So Serbia itself was never in war against Croatia or Bosnia. Not that Serbia didn’t help, but Bosnia and Croatia had a rebellion from THEIR Serbian minorities… Minorities we (International Community) bombed and punished because they had to accept the International Recognised Borders, see Helsinki Treaty… And UN charter…
So, we had the UNTAES (United Nation Transitional Administration, I don’t remember what the two last letters were for, well Vukovar Region) to oblige the local Serb to voluntarily join the Republic of Croatia, in an explosion of joy and firework…
But, it can’t be done in Kosovo… Why it still not clear. Well, it is. It is because they are Serbs. Badies… War criminals, systematic rapists (well, charges abandoned at the Hague because complete lies, but some journalists still speak about it…), “Genocidors” (again, lack of evidence of the 8 000 killed in Srebrenica, around 3 000 bodies recovered, and not all Muslims and for the war, but still, you know, doesn’t matter), Ethnic Cleansing (which both sides did actively, the last one being the Albanians Kosovars, as you stated)… Bomb the Serbs…
So, to be short, the Serbs “genocidor –well, even if the only witness is a Croat who described against immuniyu, a change of name and a job- how him and 7 others killed 1 200 Muslims, operation which, according to his description, would have taken 20 hours… and the bodies never found, despite Madeleine Albright Satellite Pictures – have bad reputation.
The conclusion is what ever the situation is, the Serbs are guilty.
But, no, they are not the same in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia (and Montenegro, Slovenia, I don’t think there are too much left after the bureaucratic Ethnic Cleansing, and Macedonia).

“Poles are not occupiers there - they are protecting Serbs.” The Poles are part of a force which is actually stopping the Serbs to regain by force their territory. Kosovo Independence is due to NATO bombing campaign and NATO occupation of the territory. You can agree with this policy, however, to pretend that Poles (or others) are protecting the Serbs is just as pretending that the Germans protected Poland against the Russians after 1939…:beam:

I don't think Serbs see UN force there as an occupation force, although in theory that troops are protecting Kosovo independance, so they could be perceived as occupiers. That Pole just got in between.

But as Brennus said, it is really funny to see arguments used by Kosovo Albanians... The same arguments that they said weren't good enough only a month before.

GOD BLESS POLAND!!!

:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:
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:poland: :poland: :poland: :poland:

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Originally Posted by KrooK

And if Poles decide to kill 100 Serbs/Albanians for 1 killed Pole - I will be deply for that. With full respect for Serbs

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I am sure they are very moved by your respect. I mean, well, wow.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I am sure they are very moved by your respect. I mean, well, wow.

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I think you need to rethink your description of yourself as far right. Krook makes you look like a bleeding heart liberal.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

I think you need to rethink your description of yourself as far right. Krook makes you look like a bleeding heart liberal.

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If you want to identify not being homicidal as being a bleeding heart liberal maybe I should, but there is quite some more to it. I am a nationalist, and we are a friendly and civilised nation, I want to keep it like that, positive nationalism. If that is the far right it wasn't me that put me there.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If you want to identify not being homicidal as being a bleeding heart liberal maybe I should, but there is quite some more to it. I am a nationalist, and we are a friendly and civilised nation, I want to keep it like that, positive nationalism. If that is the far right it wasn't me that put me there.

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Political leanings of Fragony

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Where do you put yourself on the political spectrum: far-right

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I guess it means something else for you, far-right has nothing to do with racism, quite the contrary, or I couldn't think of anything more the contrary. Far right is anti-governance, do not mistake me with extreme right, which has been hijacked as well by the way.

On a side note, we have a little anniversary today. On this exact day, 9 years ago US-led NATO commited aggression on then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, in an operation ironically named "Merciful Angel", supposedly to protect native Albanian population in Kosovo.

Clinton administration claimed that there were hundreds of thousands of dead Albanians, that there were mass killings in football stadiums, numerous mass graves filled with civilians. And, as we all know, later proved that it was unimportant that nothing of that were true. There were around 2000 dead, terrorists, serbian police officers and civilians all put together. There were no mass murders in football stadiums, and to this day there is no trace of those mass graves where supposedly hundreds of thousands of native Albanians were buried, although, occasionally, some mass graves of non-Albanians were found in Kosovo but that is another story...

The agression, which started 24th March, 1999 at 20:03 CET by dropping bombs on Novi Sad, lasted eleven weeks during which NATO couldn't harm Yugoslavian army, so instead turned to civilian infrastructure like roads, bridges, railways, coal plants, electrical system, television buildings and even Chinese embassy building. The direct damage estimates vary but 4 billion dollars is generally accepted (this is not counting military installations, buildings and infrastructures because in a way those were legitime targets, although it remains to be explained how can any target be legitimate in an illegitimate aggression). Total damage estimates comes between 30 and 35 billion dollars.

Novi Sad Varadin bridge.
http://content.answers.com/main/cont...bridge1999.jpg

Novi Sad Liberty bridge
http://www.webheaven.co.yu/nato/most_slobode.JPG

National Television building
http://www.ce-review.org/01/15/image...news15_rts.jpg

Passenger train on a bridge
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9904...nger.train.jpg

Chinese Embassy
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/990...se.embassy.jpg

Downtown Belgrade
http://www.kosovo.net/usce.jpg

But, what is much more important than buildings or the damage to the economy, during the aggression 1500 soldiers and police officers died and 1500 civilians also lost their lives, of which 89 were children.

What is also interesting is that paradox terms like "humanitarian bombings" were frequently used by NATO to describe their actions. In the end, when NATO finally got its forces on the ground ending the supposed mass murders of Albanians, right in front there noses, we've seen exodus of about 200,000 Serbs and other non-Albanians, villages burned, churches, monasteries and other holy places desecrated, not to mention murders.

This is the basis of indepented state of Kosovo. I don't know what else to say except: "God bless America and NATO..."

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GOD BLESS POLAND!!!

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Finally we reach an agreement :)
I can only add
AND ITS BRAVE WARRIORS!!!!

"THE United Nations war crimes tribunal in The Hague has acquitted a former commander of the rebel Kosovo Liberation Army of all charges of war crimes in a decision that could inflame anti-Kosovo sentiment in Serbia weeks after Kosovo declared independence.
Ramush Haradinaj, who briefly served as prime minister of Kosovo three years ago, was found not guilty of the murder, persecution, rape and torture of Kosovo Serb civilians and some ethnic Albanians.
The crimes were said to have been carried out by men under his command in 1998, when the rebels fought to free their largely ethnic Albanian region from Serbian rule.
Another rebel commander, Idriz Balaj, was also acquitted, while a third defendant, Lahi Brahimaj, was sentenced to six years in prison for torture and cruel treatment of prisoners.
The two men are expected to receive heroes' welcomes on their return home.
In summarising the verdict, the judges said the trial had many shortcomings, including vague evidence and widespread fear among witnesses, suggesting the full version of events had not been told.
The full judgment is not yet available, but in their summary, the judges gave weight to evident intimidation of witnesses, stressing that although the court heard almost 100 witnesses, they had great difficulty in getting many to testify freely. They said they granted 34 witnesses permission to hide their identities, that 18 were subpoenaed because they refused to testify and that others said they dared not talk once they were in court.
Prosecutors complained repeatedly about pressure on the witnesses, saying that it had been greater than in any other trial at the tribunal.
Those most afraid, prosecutors said, were former fellow rebel fighters who had been expected to testify as insiders. At least three designated witnesses were killed before the trial, prosecutors said.

For Serbs, the acquittal of two of the former rebel commanders, whose forces were backed and supported by the West, is likely to be viewed as one more insult.

Kosovo has long been portrayed as a victim of Serbia. Only one other case at the tribunal has focused on abuses and killings by Kosovo Liberation Army fighters, although human rights groups have documented numerous killings and instances of mistreatment of those not siding with the rebels."

I can’t wait the non-guilty verdict for Croat Ante Gotovina. I suppose the 200,000 Serbs would have left their home on voluntarily basis.
Killing Serbs is not a crime for The Hague… The farce is on...:clown:

Brenus, unless the text above is entirely your own work, you need to provide a credit or source and ideally a link.

Not doubting your assertions, it's just a courtesy to the original authors.

:bow:

This is one of the reasons why international law continues to have so little credibility; its strongest governmental backers (liberal interventionists) are content to ignore it when it is convenient for them.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

In the end, when NATO finally got its forces on the ground ending the supposed mass murders of Albanians, right in front there noses, we've seen exodus of about 200,000 Serbs and other non-Albanians, villages burned, churches, monasteries and other holy places desecrated, not to mention murders.

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I am not so sure about those numbers, but it is a fact that Nato intervention provoked and condoned inverse ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, and that the practice is still going on today. The degree of western support for Albanian nationalists in Kosovo was a huge mistake, no doubt about it. The bombings didn't even rid the world of Milosevic; his early retirement had to be 'bought' later on with a huge EU aid package.

Sadly, most post-1989 humanitarian interventions have been disasters.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Political leanings of Fragony

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I knew that thread would prove useful. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I can’t wait the non-guilty verdict for Croat Ante Gotovina. I suppose the 200,000 Serbs would have left their home on voluntarily basis.
Killing Serbs is not a crime for The Hague… The farce is on...:clown:

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...

What is your problem, exactly? The moment that the tribunal prosecutes a non-Serb you criticize it because they supposedly only do it to appease the Serbs, and when they acquit a non-Serb it's because they're out to screw them?

There isn't really any doubt about the double standards at work here. It is a matter of common knowledge that Western diplomats pressured the chief prosecutor to drop the case, and when Western countries, which basically run Kosovo as a mandate territory, aren't going to cooperate with the prosecution what chance is there that the case will succeed?

Prosecutor: "We are going to prosecute X, Y, and Z. We need you stop their militia intimidating and killing witnesses."
West: "You can't do that, they are respected political leaders, we won't accede to your request."
Prosecutor: "They are war criminals."
West: "You can't prove that."
Prosecutor: "Because the witnesses are being intimidated and killed."

As has been pointed out, verdicts like this (especially when compared to the 27 year sentence given to the Bosnian Serb speaker of parliament) make it even less likely that actual Serb war criminals will ever be brought before the court, because it is irredeemably tainted with bias and/or dysfunction.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

As has been pointed out, verdicts like this (especially when compared to the 27 year sentence given to the Bosnian Serb speaker of parliament) make it even less likely that actual Serb war criminals will ever be brought before the court, because it is irredeemably tainted with bias and/or dysfunction.

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Funny thing is that the U.S. fully supports this tribunal whilst refusing to join the International Criminal Court, and for the very same reasons: bias and dysfunctionality.

[lunatic_jumping_in_front_of_the_crowd]

IF THERE WERE NO POLES, I'D QUIT BEING A TURK TODAY !!!1111EPICEPICEPIC

WITH FULL RESPECT TO MARTIANS, OF KOORZEZ.

Oh Poland,
Shall you rise
Very high
With Turkey

I know
This does not
Sound like
A Song
Dedicated
To Two
Heroic nations

But at least
I tried
With my full
Respect to
Ray Charles

Thanks.

[/lunatic_jumping_in_front_of_the_crowd]


:poland: :smoking: :turkey: > :texas:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I am not so sure about those numbers, but it is a fact that Nato intervention provoked and condoned inverse ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, and that the practice is still going on today. The degree of western support for Albanian nationalists in Kosovo was a huge mistake, no doubt about it. The bombings didn't even rid the world of Milosevic; his early retirement had to be 'bought' later on with a huge EU aid package.

Sadly, most post-1989 humanitarian interventions have been disasters.

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I don't have the exact data, but 200,000 refugees, mostly Serbs but not exlusively, is a pretty accurate figure.

The bombing actually helped Milosevic. He was very low at the polls at that time, I think it was an all time low. The bombing allowed him to take the mantle of defender of the country. That's why we had ellections in the year 2000, not in the 2002 when they were scheduled. He hoped to use this to get another 5 years, but it backfired...

I can't help but wonder why those humanitarian missions have been disasters. Let's say that all those reports were true, and that Milosevic clear goal was to ethinically cleanse Kosovo of all Albanians (it seems a bit far fetched but still)... Now in that case Nato was ready to organize entire bombing campaign that involved numerous countries, spend millions/billions of dollars, act without the authorization of the UN etc... but in the other case when it already had troops on the ground, whose only responsibility was to prevent that from happening - did nothing. The question is why....

Please tell me guys, am I being paranoid here? What's the reason for it?

Biggest problem with all these peace mission is that no one understand that if two sides are fighting war, they hear only real strenght. Not some soldiers who at least will be trying to stop them but real strenght which can destroy them easy and won't be wasting time on deliberations.
If NATO or UN sometimes behaved like Mongols ("you don't respect us so you will be killed without shadow of mercy") total number of deaths would be lower. Look at Sierra Leone - if UN attacks there and started massive killing both sides soldiers (these dumbs should be killed all IMO - no clean side) and after killing 50% told rest to stay and respect UN orders - they would do that.
Now when UN call sides to casefire it looks like Pope into mtw 2 - Pope is being listen only if you benefit from that.


And one more

LONG LIVE TURKEY - Their government case into Constitutional Courts shows us that turkish separation of powers is 10 times better than into corrupted EU.

Krook, when the van comes, come quietly :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Now when UN call sides to casefire it looks like Pope into mtw 2 - Pope is being listen only if you benefit from that.

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Now that's probably around the second point that you've ever made that I agree with.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Finally we reach an agreement :)
I can only add
AND ITS BRAVE WARRIORS!!!!

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I thought my sarcasm was too overwhelmingly obvious. I was wrong.

@ LEN - Thank you for that, you made my day :laugh4:

Sorry: Article from the “The Sydney Morning Herald, Kosovo leader cleared after troubled trial, Marlise Simons in Paris, April 5, 2008”.:shame:

“The moment that the tribunal prosecutes a non-Serb you criticize it because they supposedly only do it to appease the Serbs,”: Ok. I see a Big misunderstanding here.
I don’t criticise the prosecution of a non-Serb because it supposed to appease the Serbs, I criticise the Tribunal for the fact that almost all non-Serbs are found none guilty.
The charges are down-sized at a ridiculous level (Gotovina charged with 35 people killed, when without any evidences and no bodies, News and The Hague talk about 20,000 “genocided” in Srebrenica…)
The Hague just prosecutes a non-Serb just to find him non-guilty…:clown:

“Please tell me guys, am I being paranoid here?” You are Serb. It is the “bomb the Serbs” politic. Sorry.:beam:

I can see the very democratic aspect of a very democratic Republic of Kosovo, repecting all minorities' human rapes, err, rights.

Kosovo je srbja

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Originally Posted by Brenus

You are Serb. It is the “bomb the Serbs” politic. Sorry.:beam:

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You know, I don't know how we (Serbs) managed to pick a fight with every powerful state in its prime. Since we came to the Balkans, we had wars and uneasy relationship with Byzantium, later with the Ottomans during their prime. After they became too weak we switched to Habsburgs, with them gone we managed to piss of Hitler's Germany, immediately after that we said piss off to the Soviet Union and now, at the beggining of the 21st century we were involved in conflict with the US. I guess that's goint to last until China takes over as number one and then we have to think of something to annoy them :laugh4:

Seriously Brenus, you need to stop defending Serbs here, you're gona lose your credibility :laugh4:

@Boyar Son

you need an "i" between "b" and "j" - Srbija