The Siskinies

OK first Congrats to the team for the good release http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif
Thanks for taking my advice on the Thracians, I will now try how they play in the newest version.

Now some suggestions on aesthetics and 'nice to haves':
1. Intro Movie:
After watching the Spartan game trailer I thought it might be nice to have an Intro movie for HTW.
This could be done in one of the following ways.
If someone has an appropriate movie on DVD or already as avi or mpeg it should be possible to take seqences out of it and remix it with one of the HTW music files.
(I am thinking in the lines of what STW did with RAN)
The problem is getting a good movie with hoplites in it.
Another option would be for Flip to create a rendered sequence of the already usable unit models and animations in Poser.
As he would need a background I would advice looking at the free stuff in renderosity.
The third and maybe the more practical solution would be to get a good multiplayer game staged and recorded, and then using a screengrabber to convert parts of the replay into a movie.
2. Shadow animation in main menu:
Again maybe flip could create a larger scale animated sequence of some existing HTW units and create a black figure movie out of it.
3. New Map 360 preview images:
As the images of the new map are nor 360 I would suggest using a generic sepperator graphic (corinthan helmet maybe?), an paste it at the seam of the 360 graphic. Would look a little bit nicer than just having the landscape not fit at the seam.
To the one having created the Music Pack:
As the Viking Music is not overwritten, the pagan factions still get viking music sometimes. It does kind of fit, but if you want to have total conversion, these should be replaced with ancient barbaric tunes also.

A good source for original and free music is
this community

Omegamann,

nice suggestions but not easy. Also this will give a heavy HTW install file for download.
>>2. Shadow animation in main menu:
Again maybe flip could create a larger scale animated sequence of some existing HTW units and create a black figure movie out of it.
Tell me how to makit, I always asked myself about this....

Hi flip,
I think the movie should be an optional component just like the music files.

If I recall correctly the shadowfigures in the backround are either a movie or a animation sequence with transparency.
I will check tonight and come back to you when I found the file MTW uses.
If they are in a modable format (either movie, picture or bif) then it should be possible for you to create an animation sequence in Poser and then rework that to be black and white in a graphics programm.

BTW. Did you already know about renderosity? And might you have Poser stuff from Daz3d?
I am no 3d modeller, but when the first bif editor came out for shogun, I considered doing an sword and sorcery STW mod by using free poser stuff available.
Never had the time for it though and I also didnt know where to get good fighting animations from.

Thats why I am so happy that Duke John and you also realized that unitgraphics creation can be streamlined using 3d animation.

OK, I admit I was mistaken.
The files used for the background shadow animation in the main menu are under frontend_Files left.cmp and right.cmp
(That was easy to find out by looking at the file sizes of the files in the folder)
I guess each is one layer of animation (as the front scrolls at a different speed than the back)
Tested exchanging them with the ones from stw and I had Samurais instead of knights.
Then I did some googling and the closest thing to a .cmp movie or animation I found in the context of mpeg4 encoding, as cmp seems to be raw video data that can be converted to mp4 movies.
But I had no luck in finding any tool to dsiplay or edit a .cmp file.
So no luck an that part.
I will now download the bif reader, but I dont see why CA would call a bif file cmp

Waw Thanks Omegamann

nice info there. I'll look further on that,
but it seems that may be a hardcoded stuff.

About the movie, In about four more hours I'll be done downloading the movie Troy, off of shareaza. I could maybe send the file as an email attachment to someone who would know how to take out a good battle scene like STW did with Ran?

I have fallen in love with this mod, so I really want to help in some way.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...evalcheers.gif

EDIT: I just checked and it's an avi file, therefore it should be rippable. Oh and Troy is just the movie we need. It's very new, and I hear it has plenty of hoplites and battles.

Were in luck

Well
1. You should not take any scene from Troy except those from advertisements or trailers (as anything else would ne illegal)
2. Troy doesnt have hoplite battles, as the armor they use in the film are a somewhat stylised depiction of late mycaenan age armor, no hoplon is seen in the movies.

The best sources for Hoplite scenes are in the Discovery Channels Ancient Warriors Series (Spartans and Macedonians available) although these are not so spectacular as movie scenes.
As far as Movie scenes are concerned there are sadly not many movies made containing realistic hoplites.

There were some TV Movies made about Jason and the golden fleece, Ulysees and Helen of Troy, wich might be usable but have the same concerns about historical correctnes as Troy.
Other options would include the classic movies like Harryhausen Jason and the Argonauts, and the 1956 Helen of Troy or Alexander The Great of the same year

Of course some Rome Toral War Battle Scenes from Time Commander might also be used.
And then there are always these guys to talk to

I just came across this movie(while searching for news on the announced movie adaption of Frank Millers greatest work in comics)
The greeks look realistic enough (sadly no corinthans, but something like attic helmets) and from a short review I read the fightscenes might not be as bad as other movies of this type.

Haha, 300 Spartans; ROFL

I didn't know this movie existed. So old. They should reamke it with some cool actors.

Hello all you siskinies , Ive been following your feedback since the start well done fella's .. but Im getting a little worried https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/no...gc-anxious.gif
Have you all stopped testing ? as its been two weeks since any reports ...cheers.. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/no...icons/wave.gif

Hi all,

please visit this thread. It is a beta test on the economy model and I need your opinion on it!!

:knight:

Ok, I have finally had a chance to play the newest build and it looks and works great. (I killed my VI disk during beta testing so it took a while to get a new one).

I tried the economy model and it I like it a lot. Although personally I think the economy could stand to be even lower but it is not a big deal.

It would be awesome to have a campaign where to field a large military force would bust your balls money wise so a large army would only be good for a few years at best unless you have a huge number of areas bringing in many resources for your economy (after all, those soldiers have to come from somewhere right? More soldiers mean less workers for farms, mines etc.). Most countries of the past could only field a large force for 1 or 2 seasons of the year because the rest of the year the troops had to return home for crops etc.

But on a whole, great job. ~:thumb: :thumbsup:

:charge:

Gentlemen,

More feedback please on the new startpos files with reduced money income.

LZoF

Hi all,

Here are the files for a number of patches and fixes (hopefully) that people talk about. This is mainly for test so post your experience with it.
Things that have changed:
1. New charge system. Somebody said some time ago that we can go from –9 till 9 so this is implemented and gives better granularity for the charge values.
2. New AI preference system. The calculation now take in mind the preferred culture so Persians though they can produce hoplites they will not do it in large numbers but you have to report back on that. If you like the Persian wars system of locking ht units in to the areas please say so I can pass it to the old HTW production files
3. Support Costs. Unit support cost will be ~20% of the production cost. This translates to a lot of money for a big army and lots of initial hostilities since most factions will begin with negative income. This needs further study since you still get of a good + once you get some foothold (though by the time I did that I did not have a big army).
4. Production time calculation changed. This will slow you down a lot! Production times have nearly doubled. Now moral, armor, attack and defense values are taken in to consideration (not only moral)

Oh one more thing ... the files

Ok here's my report after 25 turns, geometrical era, playing as the Boetians.

Although the Argians are prone to attack a lot, as usual, they didn't manage to keep all the territories they had invaded. I reckon it's due to the longest time required to train hoplites. Therefore they can't bring reinforcements quickly enough.

The greek stacks are now quite mixed, i haven't seen any stack with more than 3 hoplite units in it (more akontists) .

I earn around 4000 gb per turn, but heavily rely on trade, if my ships were sunk my income would collapse. Even though i'm fairly rich, i couldn't train many hoplites.

The Lydians have the strongest military might but don't have numerous stacks (they're at war with the Argians).

Hoplites, polemists now break faster, when they lose half of their men (~60).

Wow, Komninos, you rock! :jumping:

I will try them out ASAP.

After 50 years, in the same campaign, i'm at war with both the Argians and Corinthians, the naval victory is uncertain, therefore my income collapsed, i now lose 2.500 gb per year (still have 60.000 gb).

Despite the Argians are at war with almost everyone, they withstand the assaults quite well (they were kicked out of Greece though).

The Illirians are doing well, they won two battles against greek factions the Thessalians and the Argians). Therefore i think the barbarians now play a greater role (none of the barbarian factions disapeared and still hold the north) .

Armies are still mixed, honestly it's the first time i face so many archers.

My conclusion is that increasing both the training time and the upkeep cost is the solution for not to meet gigantic armies, because the AI can't replace the units it loses quickly enough to get many stacks.

I hope someone else will confirm the AI isn't doing well only in my game.

This is not too good ... Greek armies should be based on Hoplites 3 - 1 at best 3 - 2 to other (light) units. Any way I have put some more work to the files ... ship building and support is not correct and must increase the Hoplitic proferances for Greeks.

I swear to you the battles are much more tactic, but i understand you want to be more historicaly accurate.

I noticed that you had put charge value below 0 for many barbaric units (i.e scythian warbands, phrygians auxilliaries, dasian rompheari). I think it's a pity because barbarians mainly rely on their charge. Then, when engaged in close combat they lose quickly due to both their lack of defence and discipline.

As I said before ... these are calculated values and charge is a heavy one. It is basicaly relative charge value so considering Persian skythed chariots get 9 the weakest charge unit gets -9 where do you put skythan light infantry?

I can give tribal units a push at the charge value. Now they stand about this level:
-------- Att -- Def -- Chg
Normal -- 1 ---- 1 ---- 1
Tribal --- 2 ---- 0 ---- 1

I can have them

-------- Att -- Def -- Chg
Normal -- 1 ---- 1 ---- 1
Tribal --- 1 ---- 0 ---- 2

Yes maybe giving them a stronger charge but reduce their attack would be better, but i'd like others give their opinions, because it's only my point of view.

About 40 turns in to a Geometric game with the Spartans. The first 20 were fine as you did indeed struggle with the economics and a better balance of units was accomplished. I don't see an issue with a very few Hoplites early on. This is a military system that took a few hundred years to evolve. After 40 years I have about 15%-20% Hoplites and in another 40 years that will double or more. What is wrong with that? Have some patience. On the other hand I still think the economic model is to robust. While I struggled early on I have been through a major all out war and for a few turns went negative but now I am on "cruise control". I only have 7 provinces but I am making 10,000 a turn and have a treasury of 95,000. I can build whatever I want where I want. I think the issue is trade. Out of the 10,000 per turn about 80% is trade. I think it needs to be about equal to normal province income. My expenses by the way are about 3500 a turn so if I lose trade I would go negative by about 1500 but when I have trade I am accumulating way to much money which tides me over for a major war with no sweat. I am going to experiment and reduce the tradable goods as I did before but leave the province values alone. That way I will devote more attention to building those up to survive. I am going to reduce the trade values to 25% of their current number and continue to work with that until I get a reasonable balance between provincial income and trade income.

I went to my current game which is 42 turns in after reducing trade by 75% but I did increase the imports to 50 from 20. That seemed a good balance of imports vs exports. At any rate my total income is 6861 with 3251 from trade and expenses of 3846. I have not expanded the trade to the total map either so I can get an increase in that. I think I will start yet another new game and see if I can survive those tough early years using this model.

Saracen, could you look a few posts above and tell us what do you think about the barbarians' charge value ?

I don't think we should decrease the value of the tradable goods by 75 %, I did need a good treasury because i had a negative income 20 years in a row, i lost 60.000 gb in 20 turns ! So maybe decrease by 25% but not 75%.

I've played 20 years with the new settings, and the game is much funnier now. Battles are more exciting, and though I did not have any money problem, I think it would be another thing in time of war (I've only sent a few raids against the lydian and some barbarians factions, who don't have any fleet that could screw up my trade roads)

I would have to experience the charge value referenced to in order to make a valid judgement. I will look into it. Right now my focus is on economics and I have to admit every time I look at the economic model I have trouble understanding the rationale. I just started a basic Geometric game with several factions to try and see what the trade impact of the changes I made would be. I took the Argians and in 7 turns was financially solvent. With the reduced trade I was still getting 75% of my funds from trade and running a surplus. If I would of had full trade it would have only taken perhaps 3-4 and I would have been "cruising". Then for a change of pace I decided to look at the Phrigians and then the Lydians. I damn near dropped my teeth!!!! Gordion is producing 6000+ a turn, Sardis over 3000! I checked the file and the base amount for Gordion is 1455. So a normal 60% farm upgrade with an average Governor with a 2-3 acuman should be about 2328. Of course no one runs a province on normal taxation. Most of the time it is 200%. Then you add in a good Governor with a title and jack up the acumen and you have a farm income of 5709!!!! Throw in the other "goodies" and the province is cranking out 6000+ a turn. Enough to run the entire empire by itself and still produce a surplus. Then you toss in a starting Treasury of 60,000+ and you cannot spend all the money fast enough. Where the heck does that make any sense? I know that folks think this is a war game or battle game but it isn't. It is an economic simulation and that is the key to winning. You could let every battle be calculated by the computer and never move a single troop on the battlefield. If the economics are not fixed the barbarian charge value is irrelevant. I am going to spend the rest of the day and probably night starting a game as every faction, looking over their individual economics and try and bring some "balance" to each. I am doing this not to disagree with you but to make it a playable game for me. There is no "right or wrong" here only a matter of interpretation. By the way I agree with Omegaman about the northern tribes and lack of strategic agents. They have a tough enough time as it is and should be able to compete at that level.

If you're not happy with this economic model i bet you weren't with the vanilla MTW either ~;) It's only a matter of time before you run out of trading partners.

Just two questions :
- even though you earned a lot of money, were you able to train many hoplites? I'm not sure you were, especially when at war with several factions, the new training times don't allow you to replace all your lost troops.

- With your new economic model, is the AI doing well? It will probably suffer much more than you from this trade restriction.

I agree with you on the fact that some asia minor provinces still have a very high farming income (like the ones you mentioned).

I played every faction in the original game. Of course when you got powerful enough the whole world ganged up on you. I came to expect that and trade was no where near the total percentage of income it turns out to be in this mod. I felt that through many, many years the economic model of the original game remained a challenge and an integral part of the game. My original download of this mod a couple of weeks ago provided NO ECONOMIC CHALLENGE at all at least for normal Greeks and the Eastern Armies. Haven't tried the barbarians yet. At any rate being able to build everything you want in units and structures all the time just doesn't do it for me. I read these forums and people have been bitching about the money and the huge armies and the all Hoplite armies for some time. Obviously more than one person recognizes there are flaws in the mod. I set out to make a game that is playable for me. I have limited experience in how to make changes so I started posting in the forums here to get some help.

Once again the mod is great work and I am not telling anyone else to do anything. I realize there will be a difference of opinion among players. My philosophy is do what pleases you. If the author of the mod wants to incorporate anything into his "offical" files wonderful but he has every right to make those adjustments as he sees fit.

To answer your specific question in my test game with the 'full trade" on and the Spartans I was able to have about 15-20% of the army as Hoplites in 42 turns. I had accumulated almost 100,000 in the treasury and was running a surplus of a few thousand a turn. At that pace in another 30-40 years I could have had anything I wanted. When I reduced the trade to 25% of the full trade I was still able to be solvent in 7 years but I didn't play beyond that to get into actual Hoplite counts. Obviously I couldn't be where I was in the previous game in 42 turns but I still don't know what the "curve" of growth would be. Balancing the Greeks is however only half the equation. I look across the water and I see the Phrigians moving 4-5 stacks into provinces and I say WTF is going on??? How can they have so many units after I cut back the trade? Then I look at Gordion and see it at +6000 a turn and damn near "spit up". Hell they don't need any trade at that rate! I am sorry and don't intend to hurt any feelings but the economic model in this mod needs MAJOR overhaul.

I didn't have the time to do everything I wanted to yesterday but I will today. I am going into every faction as a player and look at every province. I will be using the Geometric era at normal difficulty level as a start point. My goal will be that every faction will need to be concerned about economics. Not just in the first 10 turns but every time they go to major war until such time as they become a dominant power on the map. There will come a point that regardless what I do you will gain enough funds to do damn near anything you want. I sure as hell don't want that in the 1st 5 minutes of the game. I want to see some level of balance between trade and normal income in the 50-50 range. While I am at it I am going to address some inconsistancies in the unit build times/costs/support costs. For example the Phrigians build time for common light cav is 3. That was one of the more common units and easily raised units in their army. How do we justify that when a Hoplite is 3 years? Light chariots cost +1000-1500? Where does that come from? Support costs for a man and a horse should be about twice a man alone onaverage and ships represent perhaps and even higher rate as they not only have a crew and soldiers but the ship itself. There has to be some logic applied to these numbers and the end result needs to reflect some measure of historical accuracy.

By the way do you know how to add the strategic agents to a faction? I would like to fix the barbarians as well. Look forward to chatting again soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saracen

By the way do you know how to add the strategic agents to a faction? I would like to fix the barbarians as well.

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If you want them to be able to train emissaries, well you must give them provincial estates and keep and a court of law. No need to tell you it'll change the whole game because if you do so, barbarians will be able to get all the upgrades.

Another way to give them emissaries is to simply add a few emissaries to them in the Hellenic_DA.txt for example.

MakeUnit:: ID_LANDREG_X Emissary 75

where X represents the province number.

I've literally halved (more for the Persians) the troops you get at the beginning of the proclassical era.

I also fixed the asia minor provinces farming income (reduced by one third in the "poorest" and two third in the richest) in all periods.

Reduced the trading income by 50% and increased the imports to 40%.

I'll begin a new game in the pro-classical era and tell you what's happening.

Saracen if you want my files, you know my e-mail.

I forgot to mention i also changed the initial treasury :

Novice : 5.000
Normal : 3.000
Hard : 2.500
Expert : 2.000

LOL! I just finished doing some adjustments myself. I did look at every faction and their provinces. You might be suprised how close we came to doing some of the same things. I reduced by 50% the provinces that I felt were out of line which were the Lydians, Phrigians and surprisingly the Macedonians and the Thessalians. I also reduced all non owned provinces that had a value greater than 500 by 50%. I also specifically reduced Gordion by 75% just becuase its starting value was so rediculous. I continue to reduce exports by 75% and increased imports to 50% of that value. Then went into every faction and increased the taxation to 200% and wrote down some stats. Their total income, total support cost and surplus/deficit if any and put that in columns besides their current start money. I felt that their starting support costs needed to have a bearing on their starting money and whether they were running a deficit or surplus. I then looked at ratios. For example the Cortinthians have support costs of 962 and are running a deficit of -354 and they have start money of 7912. I established a formula of 5 times the support cost plus the value of 1 year's deficit or subtracted the value of 1 year's surplus. I used a factor of 10 instead of 5 with the barbarians which I consider to be the Illirians, the Peonians and the Thracians. So the Corinthians would be 5*962+354=5164 On the other hand again after all the above changes the Lydians formula was 5*3242+12=16222 while my friends the Phrigians were 5*992-1080=3880 They were actually running a surplus of 1080 even after all modifications. The only other factions running a very small surplus to start were the barbarians which is fine. Obviously I wanted to retain the "individuality" of the various factions while bringing the entire process into some semblence of a balance. Until I actually play some turns as various factions I won't get a feel for how this impacts the troop mix which of course is the result I am looking for along with a significant reducion in total army sizes. I did a few minor tweaks to build time for some units. For example I think the build time for the Phrigians worst infantry had been set to 2. I put it to 1. No justification in my mind for a 2 to raise the lowest level of infantry. Dropped the light cav from 3-2. Things like that. Nothing major. I looked at other factions and how long it took to raise a similar level troop and brought things back in line. I will be testing later this afternoon and tonight. Even though the specific details of changes are different it is not by much and more importantly we are both looking at the same basic causitive factors ie; reducing starting income, reducing trade significantly and reducing "out of line" provinces.

I always play with taxes set to normal in order to prevent rebellions, faction re-emergence and bad vices for governors, do you?

Also, have you reduced the number of troops at the beginning?

I am pretty "nit-picky" when it comes to taxes. I check the rebellion level every turn and move taxes up and down as necessary. I usually leave a garrison of a couple of big low cost units in the "rear" provinces, crank it up to 200% and "cruise". Never have rebellion issues to my knowledge doing it that way and I maximize my economy for every penny. If I see a Governor "go bad" that is bad enough to warrent it I simply disband him and select another. I may remove his title and send him to the front as a warrior where he cannot do any harm if I care about the unit. I have only played the Geometric era and the number of starting troops in that era isn't an issue for me. My reasoning in working from the beginning is that if I can get the start of the game correct the ongoing eras will follow. If I jump into the middle of the game in the other periods I really have no solid "frame of reference" from where I started.

About 25 turns into a game with Illirians. So far looks good. My question today involves a section of the DA_txt file. In the regional attributes ID_Landreg_68 is called "dummy" and worth 2000. What is that and how is it used?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saracen

About 25 turns into a game with Illirians. So far looks good. My question today involves a section of the DA_txt file. In the regional attributes ID_Landreg_68 is called "dummy" and worth 2000. What is that and how is it used?

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I think it as a "model" and has no use at all., but Komninos sure knows better than me ~;)

I played a few turns in the geometric era with half of the troops we normally get and it was a total failure, the AI can't expand at all.
Therefore i think the starting number of troops at the beginning of the DA is just fine, no need to remove any units Komninos.

Although i think it'd be better if the greek factions that have a special unit don't get them at the beginning (PCL and CL) because it literally plummets the income (they'd get standard hoplites instead).

I've found out why we get dodgy farming incomes. I show you with an example:

Let's say the initial farming income is 100
We add the +20% : 100 x 1.2 = 120

and there's the "bug" : the next farming income is not calculated on the initial one like in MTW but on the improved income : 120 x 1.4 = 168 instead of 100 x 1.4 = 140.

It may not seem important for small numbers but if we take Gordion then it turns into a joke, especially if you put a high acumen general who adds +10% for each single acumen and once you get the "steward" vertu (10% again). I noticed that sometimes the income is almost doubled.
Maybe it was done on purpose but i really don't undertsand how it works then.

N.B: I may also have completely misunderstood the farming income calculation in MTW ~D . Correct me if i'm wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ldvs

I've found out why we get dodgy farming incomes. I show you with an example:

Let's say the initial farming income is 100
We add the +20% : 100 x 1.2 = 120

and there's the "bug" : the next farming income is not calculated on the initial one like in MTW but on the improved income : 120 x 1.4 = 168 instead of 100 x 1.4 = 140.

It may not seem important for small numbers but if we take Gordion then it turns into a joke, especially if you put a high acumen general who adds +10% for each single acumen and once you get the "steward" vertu (10% again). I noticed that sometimes the income is almost doubled.
Maybe it was done on purpose but i really don't undertsand how it works then.

N.B: I may also have completely misunderstood the farming income calculation in MTW ~D . Correct me if i'm wrong.

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That's how it works in MTW though, so I think they designed it that way.

Considering the upkeep costs are now much higher this is not a problem at all anyway.

I would like to thank you all for helping me with your opinions and experiment to improve and solve the economic model with this patch you will find things a lot more restrained.
Unit production is a bit cheaper but still costs a lot.
Unit production times have been reduced
New more strict functions were used to calculate the farm income but I feel it needs some improvement
Trade goods income has been halved and the export / import ratio raised to 40%
I also implemented the change in the barbarian / tribal units
Here are the files

Hi Saracen,

Here are some tips on the tricks we used in HTW.
The Dummy province is a province that produces a lot for the Rebel fonces ONLY! You can't get to that province cause it is not in the map nor it is conected to any other province

The East most provinces have a lot of income to represent the huge areas behind them in the east. Any way the aspect of the game is to unit the Greeks under one banner so to win you only need to hold the "Greek World" virtualy all provinces around the Aegean Sea.

If you check the startpos file you will see that some provinces have TRUE at the end these are the onse you need to get to win.

The dummy province has a "value" of 2000. Since I was reducing other regions I was wondering what impact a reduction of that number would have. I appreciate the spreadsheet you emailed me. Talk about a "ton" of information!!!! I loaded your new files and I am going to start another game. What changes did you make for the Barbarians just so I can understand that one issue. Who specifically do you view as the "barbarians". I noticed in a game I was playing the Thessalonians didn't seem to have princesses or emisarries yet I consider them Greeks. I will let you know the progress. I looked at the files and the regions have been reduced significantly. Good! I anticipate trade may still be an issue but I won't pre-judge.

I've been playing with the new files for a few turns. Greek factions don't expand as fastly as they used to. I even find the Spartans a bit passive (i won't complain about this ~D ). You can expand when playing as them, so it's the AI... I've barely seen some Spartans' ships though, is it on purpose that the priority is this low (they are less prone to invade by see than the other factions) ?

In my game the Phrygians rule the roost, they kicked the Thessalians out of Byzantion and are on their way to invade several greek territories. They haven't wage war against any greek factions yet, so they might collapse afterwards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by komninos

Any way the aspect of the game is to unit the Greeks under one banner so to win you only need to hold the "Greek World" virtualy all provinces around the Aegean Sea.

If you check the startpos file you will see that some provinces have TRUE at the end these are the onse you need to get to win.

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Good to know, i've never paid attention to this ~:)

My game would not load!!!! I got two error messages:

Buildings not parsed, they must be parsed before units

Unknown faction specified, column 20 row 8, fn_egyptian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saracen

Who specifically do you view as the "barbarians". I noticed in a game I was playing the Thessalonians didn't seem to have princesses or emisarries yet I consider them Greeks. I will let you know the progress. I looked at the files and the regions have been reduced significantly. Good! I anticipate trade may still be an issue but I won't pre-judge.

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The Thessalians just don't get any emmissaries at the beginning but are able to train them after they build a court of law. I guess the barbarians still refer to the Illirians, Poenans and Thracians.

Playing with taxes set on Normal, trade is not an issue, but feel free to mod it like you did before ~;)

It looks like a forum chat room ~D , mine loads with no problem so far, try a fresh install. I had to reinstall MTW and HTW because each time i exited my game freezed and sometimes i wasn't even able to use ctrl+alt+suppr.

I always keep the original MTW "fresh". I checked it and it worked fine. I did another copy of that to a different directory and installed the HTW mod. It booted and worked fine. I then installed these new files and it will not boot per my previous post. The issue is in those files.

Saracen, I will check the files BUT make sure you have all of them ... so this patch has to go over the Persian wars patch (not all files are included) if not just delete the PersianWar file from the campmap\startpos. Since we are no a test face for this I don't wont to make a full install. Just for now.
If you like the new system then I will check with Zimoa.

Tribal units have -1 in defence and +1 in the charge comared to the normal units.

BTW Spartans have to stay where they are ... they don't like concuest and they will only go to war if they are thretened, attacked or basicaly get pissed off by you.

It's really weird because if the files were corrupted my game wouldn't launch as well, have you tried downloading them again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by komninos

BTW Spartans have to stay where they are ... they don't like concuest and they will only go to war if they are thretened, attacked or basicaly get pissed off by you.

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I like to see them where they are too, don't worry ~D I was just wondering if it was intentional, and obviously it is.

Let's try this again. I had a working game to begin with, no issues. I extracted these files and it won't boot now!!!! I don't have a clue what the Persian patch is. The only thing I have ever done is install the latest HTW, one patch one install. Just to test I removed the prod3 file and the first error message about parsing units, bulds went away. The Eqyptian error message is still there and the title of the box that appears is

columns_buildings_factions_associations with this message:

Unknown faction specified column 20 row 8 FN_Eqyptian

Where the hell is that being loaded???

I threw out the prod3 file and all other files in the startpos except the 3 hellenic time periods and the vssver.scc It then worked???? Those same deleted files were always in the previous game but after inserting these new files there perhaps is a conflict between the existing files and the new ones. Where ever the building associations are could be the issue.

Started out as the Lydians. The first inconsistancy deals with the Egyptian warship. Costs 670/2 turns to build, support is 22, stats are 2215
The Phoenician warship costs 220/2 turns to build support is 7 and stats are 2325. Unless I am missing something the much cheaper ship is much BETTER in its stats. Explain please? If what I see on the surface is correct the Egyptian ship should be like 5526. I am going to make that change right now because I don't want to screw up the game I am playing with an unbalanced navy. I still would like comments however as to this issue and what you think the number should be. By the way there are 5 numbers that represent the ships like 35527. What does the first number stand for?

It sounds like you've already reported that ~:p With such a high cost it should be as strong as a driere (4346), or at least a penticonter, which is 4343. Note that the egyptian warship has a better strengh than the greek's, and i don't know what the strengh refers to.

I looked at the spreadsheet for all the ships and the 2 Egyptian ships seem out of line on a comparative basis. Also the build time for the Pheonecian seemed short. I did the following and by the way the first number is range. I increased the build time on the Phoenician to 2 turns. I made the early Egyptian warship 3,5,5,2,6 (cog) and the later one 3,6,7,3,8 (boom) They still are not the very best but now are competitive with the Greeks and still cost more.

You may know that the lighter greek warships were much better than their persian counterparts, so maybe it was done on purpose to reflect the superiority. Perhaps 3,4,4,2,6 for the ealy one (better than a penticonter and as good as a driere) and 3,5,5,3,8 for the later one would have been more realistic. Once again it's only my opinion.

By the way, if you wanted an economic challenge i don't think the Lydians are designed for you ~D

I am willing to make adjustments to the ships that make sense and was juts suggesting what I was doing until something "official" comes out. I am doing well with the Lydians though I got down close to zero in money. I built just enough to maintain the balance on the positive side. If what you are saying is the Lydians are not an economic challenge my reply would be why not? Every faction should be a challange. I wanted to see how the Greeks would do in building Hoplites without my "player" influence on their side of the map. I just started to see some in 114. I have kicked the Greeks off Asia Minor and my last battle faced two Hoplites in the troop mix. I suspect the Greek economics like the Lydians is still to strong. We shall see.

Hi,

In the ships everything is deliberate so please don’t change them. It took me 1 month just to get the spreadsheet the produces these values look OK.
The Egyptian war ship is there to reflect the all stile of naval warfare where ships these ships were slow and carried a large crew. They relayed on archer fire and boarding techniques to achieve victory. This made them unmanageable. The Greek and Phoenician ships relayed on there ram to break the enemy ships. They were fast maneuverable and could rake havoc in the enemy with a good well trained crew. These ships were cheaper from the old stile since they required less time and less material.
There are actually two Phoenician ships the one represents the standard Phoenician Trirem and the other is the one reported as the “super fast” Trirem. This was a light very fast ship that was faster than the Greek ones but was more vulnerable.

When talking about ships, each time i help an ally recover his province and my troops are sent by see, they demand a ransom after the battle... I can't remember if it happened in MTW either. I guess i shouldn't be that kind to them.

While I understand what you are saying about the Egyptian ships I don't think their effectiveness is as poor as the numbers indicate. Also the Greek ships stayed pretty close to shore as they were truly not ocean going vessels and in any kind of a fight in "open water" they were much less effective as the the Eastern ships could use their strengths. No one in their right mind would buy them and use them for the amount of money they cost. What the Eastern empires lacked in quality they made up in quantity. If what you say is correct then they should be cheaper and there should be more of them.

I have to say the same thing about allies in a battle. The province goes to "I think" the largest army that came in if that side wins. Your army gets held hostage and has to pay to free itself. That is "nuts" and I don't recall if it is in the original game but when I see it happening and I am not sure if I am biggest I withdraw from the attack if I can. The other alternative is let him do all the fighting and take the losses and then jump him before the battle ends to win the province.

Quote:

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I have to say the same thing about allies in a battle. The province goes to "I think" the largest army that came in if that side wins. Your army gets held hostage and has to pay to free itself. That is "nuts" and I don't recall if it is in the original game but when I see it happening and I am not sure if I am biggest I withdraw from the attack if I can. The other alternative is let him do all the fighting and take the losses and then jump him before the battle ends to win the province.

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This bug was also in MTW and is hardcoded sorry nothing to do with the HTW files and yes it is annoying.

LZoF

After playing as the Illirians for nearly 100 years, I agree with Saracen, the barbaric factions really need emmissaries.
Maybe you could lower the prerequisite for the court of law, although courts of law are definitely not designed for barbarians. Perhaps a building specific to them like "diplomatic school" or simply "school" could be a good idea too.

I'm still wondering, after playing your mod for a month, who gets the valour bonuses from the provincial estates. My first guess would go to emissaries, because of the prerequisites for the court of law, but I've never paid attention to them. If someone knows...

Yes, we know about it ... have to find a way with out needing to change the production req. of the units ... though I dought it :( ... at present and with the RTW just a moth away ... I have a fealing it is useless :(

I will find a way tough.

All eyes are on RTW I agree with you on that. If you think it's useless, don't bother with it I'll do it myself by lowering the prerequisites for my own game.

Hi all,

I have produced a new patch for the economy model we have developed ... not hearing any debates about it mast be OK. So all you need is the latest download from our site (The one with the Persian wars) and this patch to play all periods. If you have downloaded any of the older economy file with will overwrite them.

So have fun, the files are here

Your previous economic model was ok for me anyway. Could you make a short list of the changes because they aren't obvious ? ~;)

cheers, i am d/l'ing it all now.

presumably the install is: main .exe > economy patch > music if wanted?

Indeed, but you won't need to add the patch, LZoF just uploaded the newest version that includes the patch. ~:)
The music pack is great, just follow the instructions step by step and you'll face no problem.

ace. 77% completed.

just out of curiosity, how will i know if the main .exe contains the updated economic system? is it differentiated in any way?

You couldn't find out which was the new and which was the old one. I just know the new files are uploaded because LZoF said he uploaded them ~;p

my file version is 2.0.0.21, has that changed?

I swear you downloaded the latest version ~:pissed: I'm about to spank you ~;)

Hi,

Not many changes ... you need a Palestra to build any hoplite unit and you need the goverment bouildings to get the special hoplite units (Agora or Estate depending on the calture) and max pruduction time is 4 for the Thebian Secred Band while 3 for all other special hoplites.

I was seeking some economic changes in vain, no wonder I haven't found any ~;p

kom, in previous pack for Persian Wars there was this file:

PersianWar_faction_specific.txt


its missing in this last pack

Hi flip,

Well this file is in the last built of the HTW mod file this was just the new economic model with some refinements in unit building and production time. Buildings like Palestra were sapposed to give some bonus to the unit but since they are not used in unit production they did not. Now they are in so they do give there bonus to the units.

Hi all,

I started playing as the the Persians in high, proclassical? And have a couple of questions=

1. what are the yearturns for classical, proclassical, Persian wars and geometric?
I tryed the search engine but didnt find anything.

2. The Large Egyptian warship is much more expensieve then the Phoenican warship while its stats seem to be lower.
The same happens between Lydian heavy infanterie and Kardakes, the latter being more expensieve.
So is there any reasan to get them, playing as the Persians?

Thanx

1)
SetEarlyPeriodStartDate:: 100
SetHighPeriodStartDate:: 250
SetLatePeriodStartDate:: 450
SetGameEndDate:: 550

Since that's impossible to count years backward in MTW they were compelled to use years AD, but it doesn't really matter ~;)

2) The egyptian ship issue was already discussed earlier. Quoted from Komninos

Quote:

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Originally Posted by komninos

Hi,

In the ships everything is deliberate so please don’t change them. It took me 1 month just to get the spreadsheet the produces these values look OK.
The Egyptian war ship is there to reflect the all stile of naval warfare where ships these ships were slow and carried a large crew. They relayed on archer fire and boarding techniques to achieve victory. This made them unmanageable. The Greek and Phoenician ships relayed on there ram to break the enemy ships. They were fast maneuverable and could rake havoc in the enemy with a good well trained crew. These ships were cheaper from the old stile since they required less time and less material.
There are actually two Phoenician ships the one represents the standard Phoenician Trirem and the other is the one reported as the “super fast” Trirem. This was a light very fast ship that was faster than the Greek ones but was more vulnerable.

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EDIT : DA = Dark Age = "early era"

Komninos, have you found a way to allow barbarians to train emissaries yet? or should I alter the files myself?