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Pann, Sigurd, when I was working with him, pulled a similar role invention maneouvre to win the game. I, for one, believe you've screwed up somehow in your attempt to look like a helpful townie.
Vote: Pannonian
OK, I'll go and hunt for the vote tally now :wall:.
Challenge:The StrangerQuote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Also, Vote:The Stranger
Pleading ignorance......yeah not cool. Scummy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tally
Orb, while I realize you have a point, and I'll admit that I myself was initially suspious of Pannnonian. However, I think he's being legit here. I believe that we're basically waiting for someone to confirm his role right now. If we go off killing everyone who reveals, we're basically handing the mafia the game on a silver platter.
For now: FoS: Orb. You seem a little to eager to kill off someone who revealed. However, I want to wait a little longer to evaluate things before I cast my vote.
I've received a PM from The Stranger that amounts to fishing. I'd like to be persuaded that he is innocent, but I would first like him to explain what he means by knowing who has the role I claim to have...please don't play this game with me (sic), let's come clean and work together?
Vote: The Stranger
Challenge: Killfr3nzy
Reason: Only posted to join, and this'll knock you down if you're mafia. Plus, Ichi's already going to try to dent TS' ego. I could do it far better, but...
GK, I appreciate the argument, but fake reveals are damn common, and I do not want to fall for that.
Xehh II 1 (Sapi)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
TS 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 2 (Roadkill, Orb)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg challenged Pevergreen
Ichi challenged TS
Orb challenged Killfr3nzy
TS is also being suspicious. But then, he's TS. I expected that. Most of what he did in CDTC revolved around remarkably bad fishing which turned out well enough.
Also, Pannonian is unwilling to reveal his role's specifics. This seems a little odd for someone who risks lynching if he doesn't and can easily get protection if he does.
I've given you some specifics to pursue, namely asking what pevergreen did on night 1, and whether or not anyone used the shop on night 1. What more did you expect by this stage of the game? If I'm loath to give full details of my role, it's because I don't want to reveal the full capabilities and limits of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb
But, as I've said before, my role is unimportant - whether I'm lynched or not doesn't really matter. Have a look at my proposal, discuss whether it would be good or bad for the town irrespective of the individuals involved, then put it into action if the temple decides it's a good idea. Cast your vote, then forget about your suspicions for the moment, and look at the idea objectively.
I may regret this... I bought something from the shop on night one... Now why did you want to know?
Someone told me no-one entered the shop on night 1. I'd like to hear from anyone else who did, and from pevergreen concerning what he did on night 1, before giving more details. For anyone who wishes to check, I trained on my own on night 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
If the person who told me (you know who you are) wishes to explain this discrepancy privately, feel free to PM me.
Why do you want to know what i did on Night one?
Killfr3nzy has had a bad, unwalkable injury and has been sick for the last week.
In 2 days time, TB and Killfr3nzu should start posting again.
I have specific information about what you were doing on night 1, and I want to check if what you say matches up to what I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by pevergreen
There. You have it now.
Unvote
Vote: Pannonian
4 mafia eh? Well how do you know?
If you have a pro-town role you already revealed it. Help us by telling us the main part of it.
And don't bandwagon ... btw I thought you were going to be inactive, doesn't really look like it does it?
And you want to know from Pever what he does, but you won't reveal yourself. Now don't act like a bad-mafia, atleast put some effort into it.
Pevergreen's explanation matches up with the information I have. I look forward to the duels.
PS. Can the person who told me about the shop PM me with an explanation of why their information differs from what's in the thread?
Also:
Challenge Pannonian
It might cost me my night training, but he will lose his night action if I win
What more were you expecting by round 2? I gave 2 specific statements or requests, which could be equally specifically confirmed or refuted. I made a specific request of Pevergreen, which he gave me the specific truth about (which would have been hard to falsify, hence my request). Now there is that other specific statement, that no-one entered the shop on night 1, which has been equally specifically refuted by Blackaxe. Now I'd like the person who told me of that to give me an explanation. If I revealed more details about my role earlier, it would have given him an easy explanation. Because I've kept part of my role hidden, explaining the discrepancy becomes trickier if he had made up his information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Did you miss the bit where I said what I did on night 1? I trained on my own.Quote:
And don't bandwagon ... btw I thought you were going to be inactive, doesn't really look like it does it?
And you want to know from Pever what he does, but you won't reveal yourself. Now don't act like a bad-mafia, atleast put some effort into it.
As for my activity - this was why I shied away from Mafia games for a while in the first place - because I can't resist the activity when I'm in a game. When I don't have a clue, I'll read or a while before making a move. But when I'm interested in something, I'll press the point. Check the pattern in all the other long games I've played.
We all know you are either pro town or mafia.
If your mafia you will survive the night
If your pro town you will die
Simple as that. You have nothing to lose, as every sensible mafia would attack you.
Why do you demand a role explanation from TS if you don't fess up yourself.
I now tell you to give an explanation. As you ask them of others.
The more people you will make explane the easier it gets for mafia. Whatever you're doing your not helping the town.
Where did I say anything about asking what you did on the first night. You have a special role and are deadmeat. I just want an explanation, as you seem to want them as well.Quote:
Did you miss the bit where I said what I did on night 1? I trained on my own.
Point to a post where I fished for role explanations. I asked Pevergreen to reveal his activity on night 1 - I neither asked for his role, nor did I expect it. I even reciprocally told him what I did that night, as an example of the kind of explanation I wanted. He gave an explanation in that format, and it matched what I knew to be true, so I was satisfied. FYI, I still don't know what role he has, if any. I also pointed to a suspicious PM I was sent by The Stranger, which as I said amounted to role fishing. In it, he told me he knew who else had the role I was claiming (I claimed no specific role, just gave the general gist), and asked to to stop playing with him, come clean, and work together. I asked for an explanation of that PM. Note again, I did not ask what role he had, for that would give away information that could be used by mafia (something you're asking of me, curiously enough).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
All that is in the public thread, which all can read and check for themselves. Your allegations don't match up to what's publicly visible, and if anyone thinks they have incriminatory PMs from me, feel free to give the details.
If ask Pever what he did this night, and he has a pro-town role he can either reveal it, which is bad, or lie. If he's mafia he will also lie.
What use is it asking for what people did? Apart from helping the mafia making conclusions.
You already gave away that you have a pro-town role (as you knew about 4 mafia, how else would you know). You have nothing to lose and will be killed tonight. Unless your mafia yourself that is.
I vote no lynch(can I do that),I don't have enough information to vote for anyone.
Wow, very useful info there... :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Interesting how you want him to give out info even though TS didn't ask him to do it or has even responded yet for that matter.Quote:
Why do you demand a role explanation from TS if you don't fess up yourself.
Ok... you just contradicted yourself there. Smooth move. You want him to give out his info. Ok fine. Now you want others give out info after he does? The more info given out makes it easier for the mafia, yet you still want him to give out his info? :inquisitive: Right...Quote:
I now tell you to give an explanation. As you ask them of others.
The more people you will make explane the easier it gets for mafia. Whatever you're doing your not helping the town.
A question for you Stig:
Why does your attack on Pann seem to be a defense of TS? Is TS not capable of defending himself? Is this because he is mafia and so are you and you are defending him? Just something to think about...
How does asking for the information I've asked for help the mafia? I didn't ask for roles, as that would offer alibis for the mafia - the very reason why the townie description is given publicly, but no other role description PMs can be quoted. I asked for the activity of one specific member to be revealed, which he did, privately, to my satisfaction. If Pevergreen wants, he can confirm he said nothing about his role there. I also made another statement, that no-one used the shop on night 1, which I challenged anyone who could to refute. When they did, I didn't ask for details - I didn't want role descriptions which the mafia could use, I only wanted to know if I'd been given false information, and if so, why. You persist in accusing me of wanting to know the roles of other players, which is demonstrably false from what's on public view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
You seem to want to block any systematic uncovering of falsehoods, which Mafia players know are usually covers for mafia activity. May I ask, why?
Unvote: Xehh II
Vote: RoadKill
Challenge: Roadkill
Vote is for the bandwagon; challenge is to lower the chances of Pannonian, who I believe, losing his night action.
Unchallenge, Challenge: XehhII
A mafia strategy is to discourage lynching to give them more time to nail people.
Vote tally:
Roadkill 1 (Sapi)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
TS 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 3 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg challenged Pevergreen
Ichi challenged TS
Orb challenged XehhII
Stig Challenged Pannonian
Sapi challenged Roadkill
*watching the Pannonian - Stig - The Stranger - pevergreen soap*
sooo... are we doing the challenge correlation?
if not...
Challenge: Ignoramus
One post in this entire thread :no:
tally:
TheStranger 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 3 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig)
Roadkill 1 (Sapi)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg challenged pever
Ichigo challenged TheStranger
Orb challenged XehhII
Stig challenged Pannonian
Sapi challenged Roadkill
Sigurd challenged Ignoramus
I will Vote: No Lynch
Not enough for me and I
Won't be on later
That strikes you as odd?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
Challenge: Sapi As a defence i guess.
Vote:Roadkill
Reason: He started the Chalanging spree without permission from the town...
And the rest of you should stop as well...
EDIT: Redleg started the spree not Roadkill,
Unvote:Roadkill;Vote:Redleg
All the challenges up to Sigurd's are excellent as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzantineKnight
How dare you mix me up with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzantineKnight
That is not a defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadKill
I will look forward to smashing you, should our challenge be called ~;)
TheStranger 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 3 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig)
Roadkill 1 (Sapi)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg 1 (ByzKnight)
Redleg challenged pever
Ichigo challenged TheStranger
Orb challenged XehhII
Stig challenged Pannonian
sapi challenged Roadkill
Sigurd challenged Ignoramus
Roadkill challenged sapi
Can players fight multiple duels in a turn?
Since this is based on Sigurd's Holmgang idea, I'd have to say no.
Guys... the mafia tend to love it when all attention is focused on one or two people in the early rounds. This enables them to easily slide by under the radar. CNII was a great example of this.
Everyone's focused on Pannonian and TS, but I think P is legit. I'm not so sure about TS yet, but I'll have to revisit that later.
So why don't we try a different angle? I've noticed something that strikes me as a bit curious.
I touched off a bandwagon on Tran that resulted in his lynching last round. A lot of the people who voted for him simply said they agreed with my logic. Flattering as that may seem, I have good reasons for not responding well to flattery in this game. Mafiosi often like to court the favor of influential players.
Tran logged on after his death and protested his innocence vigorously. It's very possible he was right; in that case my argument would've simply given the mafia an easy chance to bandwagon without attracting suspicion.
Let's consider who voted for Tran:
Kommo
Crazed Rabbit
Orb
Ichigo
Caius
BlackAxe
Discovery1
Discovery1 attracted a lot of immediate suspicion for being the one to put the lynch vote on Tran. I would've expected, therefore, that the mafia would let him live and be lynched. But instead, he was killed. :inquisitive:
Now why would the mafia make that choice? If we believe Tran was mafia, then the people voting for him would look more innocent, especially since BK was one vote away from being lynched. But if we believe Tran was innocent, then the people voting for him are suspect.
By killing disco, the mafia make Tran seem guilty. As an innocent person, disco would certainly not deliberately put the lynch vote on a fellow townie. Therefore, the alibi of those voting for Tran remains intact.
I've reviewed the statements of the above list of players. One in particular stands out to me: BlackAxe3001. I'm not comfortable with his behavior during the last round at all.
First, he puts a pressure vote a GK, then appears upset when he gets no response. When GK does respond, he unvotes, then says this:
But after Caius explains himself and the case against Tran builds, he unvotes and responds to a post by Ichigo thus:Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
He then remains silent while Tran receives the final few votes needed to seal his fate. But then the backlash starts, and he is named in a post by Xdeathfire. He responds this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
This is the first thing that really gets my attention. Was it really "obvious" that there was a "dang good" case against Tran? I built the case, and I certainly wouldn't put it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
He then gets rather defensive - in my opinion overly so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
But then he renegs and unvotes (too late):Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
This strikes me as a pretty dramatic and poorly explained change of tone after stating that it was "obvious" that there was a "darn good case" against Tran. BlackAxe could have been feeling a little heat as suspicion turned his way and changed his mind to appease suspicious townspeople.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
And then disco was killed, making Tran look guilty and BlackAxe (or someone else) innocent as a result.
Finally, what's up with this?
That looks scummy to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
Vote: BlackAxe3001
EDIT: Tally
TheStranger 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 3 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig)
Roadkill 1 (Sapi)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg 1 (ByzKnight)
BlackAxe 1 (Kommo)
Kommodus, thanks for reminding me of BlackAxe's unvote.
I knew something was bothering me.
Unvote: Roadkill
Vote: BlackAxe
I'll give someone a donut if they can tell me what's wrong with this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
Is that a metaphorical donut? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
The broadening out is good. Kommodus, why do you think Pannonian is legitimate?
Not true. I would for a fellow innocent if the smilie told me to.Quote:
As an innocent person, disco would certainly not deliberately put the lynch vote on a fellow townie. Therefore, the alibi of those voting for Tran remains intact.
No, lets not. Stop right there. End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
That's because I know him. So bug off. I have mentioned this already and have provided good reason in previous posts.Quote:
I've reviewed the statements of the above list of players. One in particular stands out to me: BlackAxe3001. I'm not comfortable with his behavior during the last round at all.
First, he puts a pressure vote a GK, then appears upset when he gets no response.
Tran = arch enemy so I voted him. Big deal. So did 6 other people.Quote:
But after Caius explains himself and the case against Tran builds, he unvotes and responds to a post by Ichigo thus:
I was at work when all of this was happening and I was bored so I was quite random for awhile, but then I had a crisis came up and I had to go fix it, so I was "silent". It is a forum, not a live chat. People can't post 24/7 non-stop. Ease up a bit.Quote:
He then remains silent while Tran receives the final few votes needed to seal his fate. But then the backlash starts, and he is named in a post by Xdeathfire. He responds this way:
Um, ok. Maybe not worded the best, but for the FIRST LYNCH it was a pretty good case. You are playing this like this is the 15 lynch.Quote:
This is the first thing that really gets my attention. Was it really "obvious" that there was a "dang good" case against Tran? I built the case, and I certainly wouldn't put it that way.
I was agitated because it was obvious that I misread Caius post yet people just didn't get it. Also, pever was stating things as fact and they weren't, so I was questioning him, not being defensive. I had nothing to defend. Where you pull this idea from???Quote:
He then gets rather defensive - in my opinion overly so.
I wanted to mix it up a bit. Besides, pever mentioned that we shouldn't lynch so fast, so I though that he had a good point and decided to unvote. I was also very tired and couldn't come up with a good reason. It didn't matter in the end anyway.Quote:
But then he renegs and unvotes (too late):
This strikes me as a pretty dramatic and poorly explained change of tone after stating that it was "obvious" that there was a "darn good case" against Tran. BlackAxe could have been feeling a little heat as suspicion turned his way and changed his mind to appease suspicious townspeople.
This could be anyone, not just me. You are just trying to start a witch hunt.Quote:
And then disco was killed, making Tran look guilty and BlackAxe (or someone else) innocent as a result.
Tran and I have a running joke about stormtroopers. PM him to confirm this if you want. I also tend to use flamethrowers a lot in irc, hence the flamethrower reference.Quote:
Finally, what's up with this?
That looks scummy to me...
/meh
He's on the right track, but no donut for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by discovery1
What?Quote:
Interesting how you want him to give out info even though TS didn't ask him to do it or has even responded yet for that matter.
I want others to give information? Where did I say so? Talk sense man ... or learn EnglishQuote:
Ok... you just contradicted yourself there. Smooth move. You want him to give out his info. Ok fine. Now you want others give out info after he does? The more info given out makes it easier for the mafia, yet you still want him to give out his info? Right...
I defend no-one I only attack.Quote:
A question for you Stig:
Why does your attack on Pann seem to be a defense of TS? Is TS not capable of defending himself? Is this because he is mafia and so are you and you are defending him? Just something to think about...
And if you call what I do defending remember this: I also defended Andres who is a clear innocent. But I don't defend anyone, I attack Pan on his hypocracy.
You asked:Quote:
How does asking for the information I've asked for help the mafia?
What did you do night 1?
Pever might have replied believing you are totally innocent:
I protected Ichigo
So you know he's a doc, and if you are mafia you know his role.
If Pever does not believe you are totally innocent he will always say he's a normal townie. There's no use in asking what people do, except for the mafia, if they're lucky.
And why did you want to know it anyway?
Er... you say you're not being overly defensive, yet you just defended yourself against three points I didn't make. I was just providing background information with those statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
I didn't find you suspicious because you lodged a pressure vote against GK, or simply because you voted for Tran, or because you were silent for a period of time.
It was a combination of the way in which you voted for Tran, combined with what I perceived as your over-defensiveness. While we're on the subject...
I thought I explained myself clearly. Frankly you did have something to defend - your vote for Tran, which you were taking some heat for. And you rose to the occasion, defending your choice strongly at first before backing down.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
Defensive
Why do people respond this way when they get accused in mafia? I could be completely wrong about you, of course, but that doesn't mean I'm "trying to start a witch hunt." Yes, a lot of people voted for Tran, and I examined their posts too - as I will do again. But yours stuck out. I leave the witch-hunting to Sasaki.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
It wasn't the references to flamethrowers and stormtroopers that looked scummy, but rather the "challenge" to the "scummy mafia" that looked scummy - like you were trying a bit too hard to portray yourself as their enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAxe3001
So you cannot use me to privately coordinate actions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki
Setting up a network in private, giving away clues about roles, interpreting the game rules creative to keep valuable information private, etc etc is what I did in CN II, with a certain degree of succes. Maybe that's why I got killed :inquisitive: ?
Pannonian, you claimed to have a pro-town role, but you don't want to give any details. Allthough I can understand this very well, you must admit that Stig has a valid point when stating that by revealing the fact that you are pro-town, you became a target for the mafia. Maybe you can share more information with the town to make us decide how to use your abilities? If the town decides to be convinced of your innocence, you can be used as the centre of the coordination of all townies actions, in private as well as in public. Because of the rule quoted above, we need a living confirmed innocent to coordinate in private.
Maybe we can create some sort of voting system for that, like Vote : Trust Pannonian and Vote : Don't trust Pannonian? It might be a bit complicated and it might take a while, but until there aren't 8 votes on a player, the town has all the time in the world to discuss and to decide (which is a huge advantage to be used by the town).
If the town decides to trust Pannonian, a doctor as well as a town protection group should try to help him. And that's the tricky part. Be very carefull on who to trust! The challenge system might have given us clues, but unfortunately, there is no organisation whatsoever. Maybe the town could use a similar system as in Midgard? Like: Vote for Challenge: Andres vs Disco? And discuss about it as well?
And if the town does not decide to trust Pann, maybe the detective (or one of the detectives) can consider to reveal early on to give us the identity of a living confirmed innocent who can coordinate the town's actions. If the town considers a living confirmed innocent who will be protected during the whole game and who can coordinate the town's actions in private and guide in public by giving information he gathered trough the townies network more important than a detective, the detective can reveal the identity of the confirmed innocent (if he's still alive that is)? You guys can vote for that as well...
Ichigo hasn't been posting alot in this game, which is quite unusual for him. And by not posting alot, I mean that he doesn't say much. In the first round he was mainly being annoying, by posting youtube links. This round, he voted pever for being a crybaby :inquisitive:
First, TheStranger with his continuous spamming is an easy as well as a "safe" target. You won't draw suspicion by voting TheStranger or by building up a case against him. Why voting and challenging him btw? And why did you flatter Kommodus? He doesn't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Sigurd, you are good at these games, very good :bow: . Without you the town would have never lynched Seamus in CN II.
And that's why I would like you to say more than this not much telling post. Besides, why challenging Ignoramus? It's a well known fact he gets WoG'ed in almost every mafia game he participates in...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigurd
I'm also a bit curious about Omanes. You say a role like Pannonian's exists and you claim to know another player to have such a role. Wouldn't that be more a clue in the direction that Pannonian's claim is genuine instead of the other way around? It's perfectly possible to have a game with more than one doctor, detective, vigilante, ... especially in a game with 35 participants. Or is it because you don't want to see a confirmed innocent player who can coordinate in private because he is alive?
I'm not giving details as to the limits of my role, but I'll tell you what I knew about Pevergreen, and why I wanted him specifically to reveal to me what he did on night 1. He trained twilightblade. As you can see, this is a very specific piece of information, which would have been hard to fake. If pever had said that he bought something from the shop, that he trained on his own, or that he was trained by someone, it would have caught him on a specific falsehood immediately, when the action indicates that he and twilightblade have struck up a relationship of some sort, and that he is a powerful fighter (he had to be, to be a trainer). Instead, pever gave me exactly those details, which was why I was satisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
OTOH, I was told that no-one entered the shop on night 1, which is refuted by Blackaxe, who said he bought something that night. There may be an explanation, and I would recognise the format of that explanation. But on that, I caught someone out peddling falsehoods. Either that person was lying to cover something up, to pry information from me (it wouldn't be much of a guess that no-one had the money to buy anything on night 1), or Blackaxe didn't go to the shop after all despite his claim. I'm waiting for an explanation from my informant, whom I won't expose as yet - I was a tad heavyhanded with Hughtower in M6, and I recognise that.
On the back of that, I voted for The Stranger, as he'd sent me a PM which was plainly trying to coax information from me, without offering anything corroborable in return. Again, I invited him to explain that PM so I can move my vote elsewhere, but again, he hasn't replied.
As for other suspects - since I'm going to be a target from now on, you can always designate a townie to kill me, just in case the mafia decide to leave me alone, and force the suspects to form a protection group to protect me. It won't work as well as Capo, as the mafia can protect as well as kill, but it will at least stop them from killing. And if the protection fails and I'm killed, well, it means the group contains scum who was off killing that night.
I recall seeing this:
Arch enemy?In mafia games we forget about incidents in past games.Quote:
Tran = arch enemy so I voted him
I wont vote at Sigurd because he voted and lynched me in CN2.
So, I think that is a poor excuse to vote.
Vote:BlackAxe
TheStranger 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 3 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg 1 (ByzKnight)
BlackAxe 3 (Kommo, Sapi, CF)
Stig has two votes in that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
http://patsy.humlab.umu.se/patrik/archives/donut.jpg
:thinking2:
Well, that's obviousQuote:
Originally Posted by Faust|
I'm special :bounce:
Hmm...donuts...:yes:
Why you arent voting?Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraWar
Who is suspechous for you?
Say something, or I will be forced to think you are hiding something
Not playingQuote:
Originally Posted by Caius Flaminius
LOL, he is playingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Ok, Pannonian first suggests a complex mafia-hunting system, but says he won't be participating intensely. Well, how can he go wrong with that suggestion? He gains trust and risks nothing.
However, he says that there are four mafia, as if all the players knew this to be a fact. Let's face it, this slip up is only reason you have been halfway forthcoming. But that's the problem... halfway forthcoming. You claim that pevergreen's PM confirmed your suspicions... honestly, what good is that to us? If I trust you in the first place I'd believe you... if I suspect you then you will still be suspicious to me. Again, this is a case of apparent guaranteed gain vs. no risked loss.
Add to this that if you ARE the detective, you are revealing your role after presumably ONE investigation... you must admit this is a deviant behavior. Also add in that you gave faulty info when you claimed that noone had bought anything from the shop. Again, your explanation was basically to say that you have a credible source but that, after you have made this assertion, it turns out that the info was just wrong. Something is not right with this explanation... yet you've made it appear not to be a detractor to yourself.
I'm not willing to give you so much power without a decent explanation. So,
Vote: Pannonian
I'm not sure if I'm ready to lynch you, but you need quite a bit more pressure put on at the moment.
TheStranger 3 (Blackaxe, Ichi, TS)
Pannonian 4 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig, Faust)
Warluster 1 (Stig)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg 1 (ByzKnight)
BlackAxe 3 (Kommo, Sapi, CF)
Well, in that case I invite those who trust me, including those to whom I've given the information I have, to switch their votes to me and end this farce. I've given my explanations, offered concrete statements against which information in the public thread could be measured against, and offered numerous methods of corroborating my statements, been as open as I could without prejudicing my aim of flushing out falsehoods. But that's not enough. So, to move the game on, throw me off the cliff please.
Unvote: The Stranger
Vote: Pannonian
TheStranger 2 (Blackaxe, Ichi)
Pannonian 5 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig, Faust, Pannonian)
Omanes 1 (Redleg)
Redleg 1 (ByzKnight)
BlackAxe 3 (Kommo, Sapi, CF)
Well its time to apply some pressure on the those claiming to have information but only provide limited to no information so that the town can begin to narrow down the possible mafia players.
To apply that pressure I will have to change my vote to see if something breaks so that we can either identify an important townie to center upon, with protection groups or to stir the conservation some more so that we all can get a better clue toward whom to steer our efforts on. I am not really comfortable with the conservation so far, its very vague and full of possiblities but no actuall clues.
And then there is Ichigo distractions which lead me to want to lynch him, just to have it stop. But to stir the conservation farther.
unvote; Vote: Pannonian
I want clear information in order to develope possible mafia suspects, which at this time is soley lacking.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
However I suspect that many who voted for Pannonian should be added to possible suspects because of the nature of the game. Especially if he actually begins to provide the group with hard information versus bits and pieces.
The question that everyone must ask, which townie can lead the group to victory over the scum, so far I see no one stepping up to take a role, myself included. Until the group decided to mafia hunt - its going to be a crap shoot.
The problem Pannonian is that you constantly cloud your arguement behind such a stance. Provide me actual information not this type of arguement as a defense. Its a problematic defense because it leaves a cast of suspecion upon yourself because you are not actually answering any thing directly as far as I can see. Hinting toward others having information but not sharing it with the group leaves it open for mafia players to counter your postion very nicely. Which is exactly what is happening right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
If you want hard information, here's some.
Pevergreen uses white crane style.
Twilightblade uses praying mantis style.
CountArach uses praying mantis style.
HughTower uses praying mantis style.
IIRC this information is not publicly available, but the above can confirm or deny as they wish.
I've given statements which can be concretely corroborated or refuted (the scientific method), but people still accuse me of things which are demonstrably refutable from the public thread. If logic doesn't serve, then I hope Kommodus will save you again.
Right, now we're talking
Now remove that desperate "I want to save my sorry ass by voting for myself"-vote and you've got your first unvote.
What you said made sense Pannonian and a living 100 % sure innocent is needed in this game, to coordinate actions in private, since the dead cannot pm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
But voting for yourself is, well, it looks scummy.
Here you talked about organising a townies network. A very good proposition, a very useful tool. But also a very dangerous one if infiltrated by the mafia... If one of the 5 "board" members is mafia, the town has a problem. You didn't say you wanted to be the organiser or member of "the board", you named other players for that. Franky, I would have trusted you more if you would have proposed yourself.
Mentioning the fact that there are 4 mafiosi was a non-intended mistake I guess.
Were you re-reading or plannig to edit your post when BZK posted this, only five minutes after your post?
You probably didn't expect somebody to react this fast, did you? Twelve minutes after BZK, you come up with this:
What a weird role this is. But you seem to imply others have this role as well. Omanes said he knows someone who has the same role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Why don't you tell us your role name and let Omanes' contact confirm this by PM'ing him and maybe three or four other players who can vouch in the thread that the name of the role you give is indeed correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki
So: Pannonian : you post the role name; Omanes' contact pm's several people to confirm this and if at least 4 players post in the thread that you are telling the truth, the town can believe you and the networking can start.
If not, you get lynched.
Interesting. Can they confirm this is true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Again an angry defense does not bode well in figuring out what you know. You have also claimed that you know information that was provided by others to you, but that information is cloudy because you want that individual to actually state the information in game. I learned a valuable lesson in Capo - and that is to distrust such a tactic because it does not focus the group, but distracts the group from what actually is going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
Knowing the fighting styles would normally equate to information that should not be readily available to a mafia player in my opinion. But I still have not seen an adequate response from you concerning this statement.
For examble who is this reference to.
Then I wonder why this little defense state from Omanes which adds him to the same list that I include you in. People who are withholding critical information from the town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian from post#407
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=390
The key to a town victory is sharing of information, and with the ability to protect each other like this game allows - to protect each other. that requires someone taking a leader role and organizing the townies. I see lots of talk of such a stance by several to include myself - but no real effort to do so.
You made the one of the initial suggestions for just this but you also basically refused to do so. So that leaves you having to share more information to the group so that a leader can step forward and organize the townies.
Unvote: Vote: Omanes still awaiting an adequate detailed explanation of information from him also.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I would gladly volunteer, but it is not allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
The GM is harsh, very harsh.
The dead are not allowed to send nor to receive game related pm's...
So don't even bother to send pm's to me. It might get you WoG'ed...
Well, given from what I have read over these fast posts, I do not think that Pannonian is guilty simply because I don't think mafia would risk being wrong through the fighting style and also, a mafia wouldn't be as quick to put up a vigourous defence. I will instead Vote: Xehh because he is continuing to lurk and has only made one post for no lynch after joining.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Btw, I am taking AP exams this coming week and the next so I will probably not be very active for around one and a half week since I have to cram for the tests.
I know there are 4 mafia in the game - it was mentioned in my role PM. That was why I suggested setting up a board of 5 - so that even if all the mafia get on the board, there would still be an extra who could confirm the protection groups were set up appropriately. The system I suggested was meant to circumvent the possibility (probability?) of mafia getting onto the board, by ensuring they couldn't seal the process off entirely, by ensuring that someone would be able to blag if they tried to falsify the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Erm, what am I supposed to answer in response to that? I gave the entire explanation of my train of thought - I mixed up what's in the public thread and what's in my PM. Once I realised this was so, I came clean and revealed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
I'm not going to reveal my role name or the extent or limits of my role, as that will allow the mafia to make use of the alibi (which I've already tested against others). I've already prepared for my lynching by giving up all the information I already have to others who might make use of it afterwards. So get voting and get it over with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
What if 1 of the 5 board members is mafia? And after the networking is done and all the orders are given, one or two board members die, thus making the system collapse, because dead cannot pm? Meanwhile the mafia board member has alot of useful information...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
No?
I'm just trying to say that the town should be very carefull with who to trust.
Alibi? What do you mean? Can you explain to me what you mean by "alibi"? I don't understand what you are trying to say :sorry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
And what's wrong with giving the role name? It's clear you are able to do some sort of investigation to figure out the fighting styles of other players. Another possibility is that you already tried to make some sort of network for training during the night and that those players mentioned by you told you there fighting style.
Bah, sorry Pannonian, you shouldn't be upset by this inquistion, you have asked for it by making the "there are 4 mafiosi" remark. You might as well reveal everything. If you are telling the truth, you'll receive protection during the night and the role can continue to serve the town through the game. It sounds like a very useful and important role, so if you are telling the truth, we cannot afford to lynch you.
!!!:jawdrop:!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
When did you get that infomation pannonian?
I can say that is correct for me and Twilightblade.
And i did train him last night. His pitiful score...Mine isnt much better :laugh4:
Edit: Just as a side note, i deleted my role pm to make room for Battle Royale.
Here were the mechanics of what I proposed. Someone, whoever doesn't mind doing the work, randomly sorts the names of the living and sends the list to the board of 5, plus the organiser. People in the public thread then post numbers in that range, which correspond to the individuals in the night action. The organiser gets the names together, sends out PMs to the relevant individuals about what they should do. That's a powerful role prone to abuse. However, there's a board of 5 who were also sent the list of names, and they're able to check the orders that were sent out against the orders that should have been sent, by matching their name lists and the numbers called out in the thread. Any of them can point to discrepancies, if there are any, and publicise them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
Claimed roles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
I'm as paranoid as the best of them - see my treatment of Hughtower in M6. If I give precise information about my role, including rolename, extent, and limits, the mafia can make their own counter-claim. I was approached by people who claimed townie roles. I didn't believe them, and pressed them for more details. However, they satisfied me that their claims were genuine, when they gave information of a kind that would be difficult to falsify. I'm not prepared to give the mafia any chance to make similar, but false, claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres
I've already given my defence, and all the information I'm prepared to publicly reveal. That information includes stuff which can be specifically refuted. If any of the 4 named martial artists say I'm wrong, you've caught me out on a falsehood, and you can lynch me for that. Or you can do as you're going to, and lynch me anyway. You can ask me for more explanations if you wish, but don't ask for more details about my role, I'm not going to give them.
Vote: Pannonian There seems to be alot against him and he doesn't have that much of a defence, so I change my vote.
I see no reason to act serious. And even if I did no one would pay attention to anything I'm saying.Quote:
And then there is Ichigo distractions which lead me to want to lynch him, just to have it stop. But to stir the conservation farther.
Well, pevergreen confirmed your statement. Apparently, he also knew about TB's fighting style, which means two of the four posted results are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
You said there are 4 mafiosi, so both CA and HT should confirm as well to be 100 % sure, but I think we can give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
Would you be so kind to unvote yourself my friend?
While we are waiting for HughTower, TwilightBlade and CA to confirm all this(but me, personnally don't think that is strictly necessary, but for the sake of those suffering from paranoia, they definitely should), we can focus on other suspects now.
I do believe it's too late. 8 to lynch.
Eh, this is what I meant with lazy townies popping up and voting without having read everything. Didn't you see Pannonian revealed information which is not public. Pevergreen confirmed this information and made it clear he never told Pannonian his nor TwilightBlade's fighting style, so Pannonian's claim is probably genuine...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xehh II
If that's your current attitude towards .Org mafia games, why did you bother to sign up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
We didn't listen to you in CN II, true. Frustrating? Hell yes. I can tell from experience: Midgard Saga, remember? Andres is scummy, he is guilty, lynch him, don't listen to him, he is guilty... blah, blah, blah... I got over it. So please, Ichigo, forget the past and enjoy the game.
If the last tally was correct, Pannonian only has 6 votes now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Pannonian, please unvote yourself.
You need to explain this Ichigo. Why are you attempting to claim a vote of eight for lynching Pannonian when the current vote tally is six? You have committed a very scummy tactic that should get you lynched in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Unvote; Vote Ichigo
TheStranger 2 (Blackaxe, Ichi)
Pannonian 6 (Roadkill, Orb, Stig, Faust, Pannonian, Xehh)
Ichigo 1 (Redleg)
Redleg 1 (ByzKnight)
BlackAxe 3 (Kommo, Sapi, CF)
Xehh 1 (Xdeahfire)
Unvote: Pannoina
Need to rethink who to vote.
Xehh II is clearly acting very suspicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xehh II
1. He has been lurking for the whole game except when to vote.
2. He bandwagoned on Pannonian even though pevergreen just confirmed that some of what he was saying was correct.
3. He did not try to say anything about me just randomly voting him for lurking.
I miss counted. Geez freak out.:end:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
Tsk Tsk an inadequate response. Attempting to counter by saying I over-reacted by asking a simple question and pointing out your error. It seems you are indeed scummy in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo