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Kaiser, I do not see how your Edict 10.4 is a Holy Crusade if we cannot purify all of the steppes and it is not supported by home. The purpose was to spread Catholicism into the steppes against the Orthodox barbarians, not send a weak army mindlessly ravaging inside Russia. The Household Army can do that already, without an edict.
I will second Edict 10.4, even though I prefer my own.
My mission is to destroy the Russian Warmachine, and to make sure they are pushed back, so that we can make a no-man's land, and thus we will be safe from them for a very long time.
But even though 10.4 is more dangerous, I will still be more than willing to lead it, as I wish revenge.
But it must be made sure that if it gets done my (or anyone else who leads it) army will be followed by another army led by a young noble from another house. After a couple of battles this army can reinforce the big one.
Next to that this attack would rely heavy on mercenaries as reinforcements.
But I like it's idea and already volunteer to lead it.
I suggest that at the votings we vote for the following:
None
Edict 10.1
Edict 10.4
The winner takes all
I however really insist on a reinforcement army following the first, this can follow 6 years after the big one, so there's time to assemble. Next to this, this army might be able to attack Riga, so that we create the bufferzone I insist on.
Gentlemen, I've lived in Thorn for the last 40 years, believe it's no fun.
(OOC: I really like Igno's idea for reasons that it will make this game more interesting, but Ansehelm will not second it).
Matthias speaks again:
My lords I would like to present a House Edict:
Edict 10.6: The continued Milanese threat to Imperial trade and lands will be ended by taking Corsica and Sardinia. The witch Danae will be eliminated before any siege of the Castle on Corsica. The most devout Priests available, at least two, will accompany the army to bring the light of God to that accursed Isle. Once both islands are in our possession, Sardinia will be offered to the Sicilians in exchange for florins and/or their good will. All this must be accomplished in 10 years (5 turns).
Proposed: Matthias Steffen
Seconded: Duke Gerhard Steffen, Lothar Steffen
A similar proposal was given many years ago. With the Corsair threat to Italy removed, the BHA will be free to assist other Houses as needed, as we have done in the past. This Edict will also serve to strengthen our ties to Sicily, our oldest Ally who has stayed loyal to us through Excommunication and War. This should be rewarded.
Thank you.
Arnold stands
I can see what Hummel is trying to do. I myself have stated that the size of Austria requires a second army.
If two administrative lines would help this then I am in favour of this concept.
Please note however that as the Duke of Austria there will be no second Duke or equivalent individual.
Clear lines of authority are need to govern such large regions and I for one will come down hard on any group or individual trying to carve out smaller principalities under my nose. Austria is Austria and it will remain that way whether there are additional administrative titles established or not.
On a side note...can anyone provide me with some insight into what the hell is going on out east?
Actually my lords I have an idea.
In line with Matthias Steffen edict what are the opinions of this body towards giving Sofia to the Byzantine's?
I am naturally inclined towards exerting my hatred towards the Hungarians.
I believe that Sofia, the military factory, should be kept and given to Austria. The Gothic Knights and Zwei Handers trained there, no doubt, can take Hungarian land and give them to Byzantium.
*The Bavarian clerk stands up.*
Perhaps we keep it for a short amount of time - say, ten years (five turns) - enough to produce a suitable amount of soldiers. Then, perhaps, we can give it away to the Byzantines. Would this be satisfactory?
Although it has already been seconded by 2 people I'll second edict 10.5, continued support of the byzantines is necessary, our roman brothers have fallen on hard times recently, and deserve our support.
edit: Although giving up Sofia would give the Hungarians a boarder with the Byzantines again, and they could make war on each other instead of us....
I agree with Herr Salier, we should recruit loads of good recruits at Sofia, and than give it away (OOC: to make the game more exciting again).
By then Castles as Thorn are big enough to take over. I also suggest that, in addition to CA 10.2 we assign a Heimat, these will be the most important borders of the reich, and these should be our real borders. Everything outside that are extentions. Maybe treated as Imperial Provinces instead of Duchy Provinces.
*The Bavarian clerk rises:*
It has come to my attention that, while Antioch is safe, Jerusalem has fallen victim to the same plague, and that the Pope is inside. It seems that there is a very good chance that Vivianus may not survive the outbreak. With that in mind, I propose the following edict in the name of King Salier:
Edict 10.7: Should Pope Vivianus die thanks to the plague currently ravaging Jerusalem, all efforts shall be made to keep our favor at the highest level possible with the new Pope. Any purposeful ignorance of any and all Papal Bulls issued is to be considered in violation of this Edict.
Thank you.
I second Edict 10.7.
I oppose Edict 10.7 - what if there's an occurence that we need action and cannot wait for the Pope?
Indeed, that is why I am not seconding it. While I used to believe that a papal bull is imperative to follow, the recent Milanese boat near Florence has proved otherwise.
I second Edict 10.7.
Edict 10.8 (Personal Edict)
Sofia shall be given to the Byzantine Empire in the year 1250.
This shall ensure direct and safe military access via land to Outremer.
All attempts must be made to maintain this land bridge using all means at our disposal.
Conrad Salier:
I second 10.8.
-edit- OOC note: count this as a "yes" vote, econ.
I second Edict 10.8.
I believe that 1250 may be too early to train sufficient troops for Austria. Where Sofia is to go should be decided at the next diet session after we had some ample opportunity to use it to its full extent.
Also, simply giving it to the Byzantines without qualifying that we must be at peace or allied at that time is more than dangerous.
Hans makes a good point. Wouldn't it be ironic if we gifted this military powerhouse to an enemy? I think we should only gift it to the Byzantines if we are still allied - not neutral or enemy.
Matthias:
I doubt the Byzantines would be stupid enough to betray us, their protectors. Of course, I never thought we would ambush, even accidentally, a Crusade army, so odder things have happened.
Perhaps Duke Arnold could add that caveat into the edict. Also I don't believe the Diet would sanction a Chancellor who did not enforce the Edict considering that situation.
If both Arnold's edict and my own pass, we would be gifting the Byzantines a great deal. Should we ask for anything in return? Vassalage perhaps? (OOC: Probably not the best idea, since we get back much of the money we OOC donate to them, and Vassalage tends to be wonky) Assistance against one of our enemies? Even if we ask for nothing, that would be adequate, but why not take advantage of this gift if it can benefit us.
OOC: You can only ask for vassalage if the faction is hostile. Assistance is near impossible even with immaculate reputation. Ditto with Untrustworthy.
OOC: Does the Kaiser really need that much influence in Diet elections? It's obvious that econ21 holds the deciding vote.
Ansehelm comes walking into the Diet again and immediatly he begins to speak
Meine Herren, do you remember me mentioning that the cities here in the south are rioting? I bet you do. And do you remember us thinking of a way to solve it, even though the Honourable Hans couldn't solve it? I bet you do.
Well I've been here in Italy for a couple of weeks now, and I must say, people are clearly unhappy. And there's one simple reason: THE TAXES!!!
Why do you force these people to pay very high tax rates if they cannot pay it. You're forcing these people to riot, it's either die of hunger or overthrow the current leaders.
What do you say about lowering the taxes, make the people happy again. Happiness should be about 100%, not around 85%. People should be happy with us again, and it clearly doesn't look like that's so now. The Honourable Hans claims that we are getting more income every year, well that means that the taxes can go down. Be good for the people, don't be gready and take everything yourselves.
Ansehelm sits down again and commands his servants to fetch him a strange drink, ice and ice cold, with some strange deer engraved on the bottle.
Indeed, I could have lowered the taxes, but as there was no risk of actual riots and governors all commanded taxes be so high as to not cause riots, would you go against that?
I would, and I suggest that the governors lower the taxes for the next 20 years. We get enough money anyway
OOC: lower taxes means more population, which makes our problem worse, and this isn'y the place for OOC discussion.
IC: I think we should give Iconicum and Sofia to the Byzantines in exchange for assitance against the Turks, We'll be busy with the Mongols, and the Egyptians.
OOC: Don't doubt the wonders of this game's AIQuote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
I do not think Edict 10.8 is the wisest way to help our allies the Byzantine Empire for in case the region is taken away from friendly hands, whereas by The Eastern Empire turning on us or by a foreign army conquering it; it would requiere more of our people's blood to take it back.
A wiser decision in my humble opinion could be to lend a host to the Eastern Empire or to settle on a regular amount of gold paid on the Imperial budget.
For the matter of the Italian disorder, I have also raised the issue in the past. As Count of Marseille, I do not believe that lowering the taxes would do as much good as increasing and/or improving the administration and local government as well as leisure facilities. The Chancellor by his actions have seemed to take this path which I think will serve us well.
Actualyl Marseille is one of the worst cities to be, young Marcus.
I think there's still much to learn. Leisure activities cost money, money we also need for the wars in the Outremer and East. If we lower the taxes it too will cost us money, but over a short time less. Sides leisure activities don't really help.
And next to that it's the Bavarians that are having these problems, and the other houses that need the money are troubled by it. Because you want to give your people something to do, we can't do what we want!
Ansehelm sits down mocking
As far as I am aware, only the racing tracks in Outremer cost additional florins to maintain, the brothels in Italy do not.
They do cost money to build tho. Sometimes upto 6000 Florins. I could buy myself a nice army for that
And maintain it for how long?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
if you build a building that allows you to keep taxes high then eventually the building will pay for it's self.
Jonas Von Mahren
What is this nonsense. With high taxes we will keep our cities manageable and fund our armies. If the population of Northern Italy cant tolerate beeing taxed like every other city dwellers in the Reich are,maybe we should let them rebel and give them reminder who are their masters by hanging few of them from the city walls after putting the trouble makers to the sword. Maybe we should set an example?
Gerhard Steffen
I don't think that's necessary just yet Jonas, but in time it may be.
OOC: Eventually the pop growth shoudl satbilize at 'orange', right?
Actually Gerhard the buildings don't help that much if you keep the taxes high.
On day one people are pissed off because of the high taxes, on day two they get more pissed off, etcetera. Now you build a building again they become somewhat more happy again, after that it will just start to drop again.
(OOC: it doesn't matter if you have buildings with +5% happiness, high taxes will make sure happiness drops overtime, it won't stop, it'll keep dropping).
My Lords two things.
First, I will leave edict 10.8 as worded. You are free to vote on the legislation as you see fit. The Chancellor has leeway to ensure some reassurances from the Byzantine's.
Secondly, in preparation for the coming elections I hereby appoint Sigismund von Mahren Count of Venice.
Please ensure the administrative matters are attended to regarding the voting record.
Austria has another administrative matter.
We have a 4th Elector of Austria (Ituralde). He is hereby appoint the Count of Budapest.
Please have this recording in the voting documents.
In tne Official Voting lists there is an omission.
The full edict should read:
Edict 10.8
Sofia shall be given to the Byzantine Empire in the year 1250.
This shall ensure direct and safe military access via land to Outremer.
All attempts must be made to maintain this land bridge using all means at our disposal.
--------------
Those directives under the year are necessary and binding aspects.
OOC: Updated legislation list (Yes AG, yours too. :P) :
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...17&postcount=9
I cannot help to have noticed that our dear Count of Thorn spoke about the leisure part of my intervention; lacking to observe that I also mentioned improving the local administrations. But this is as good as it gets with the Empire “politics” I suppose. We all have our areas of interest, those closer to our daily problems.
What the Count of Magdeburg, whom, may I precise is also from the House of Franconia, hasn't apparently noticed is that if the Empire doesn't have the rich cities of Northern Italy paying juicy taxes, we cannot afford such an extended oversee military force as our expensive expedition in the Holy Land while having armed forces capable of defending our Home lands. The rebelling County of Marseille, as rioting as it is, if you allow me the approximation, is paying for the salary, equipment and training of your Franconian household army. This is not said in order to brag but to try to give you a sense of the importance of this topic.
For the record, if you seriously think about slaughtering a population of tax paying rich tradesmen and citizen who are the very economical heart of our dear Empire, this even without considering the alternatives, you might consider slaughtering the population of “every other city dwellers in the Reich” for not putting enough gold into the imperial vaults.
Talk sense young Markus, look at the cities, and you'll see that mainly the people in Italy are unhappy, all others are happy with what's happening, and they are even further from the capitals.
Jonas Von Mahren
Count of Marseille. Im very happy to hear your education of the economical situation of the Reich.While you yourself dont understand that Franconia with Hamburg as the trade center holds the Baltic Sea trade on its grasp. We dont need the Italian Money. And personally if you want to tell me about crusading please go through one and come back then to talk how much it is has to do with Italian merchants. I dont care what subjects of the reich behave rebelliosly. If that happends im more then ready to put them into sword,whether they were Italians or French or bloody heathens in Outremer. Each morning that i wake up i thank the lord for living in the North where are still true Germans.
Matthias looks discouraged at the current topic of discussion.
My lords, the fact is that no city in the Reich is currently in rebellion. I believe Marseille had a relatively harmless and brief uprising that was quickly put down a few years ago. An astute Chancellor will be able to adjust tax levels to avoid rebellion and fill the coffers of the Reich.
The cities of Bavaria are are as loyal as any in the Reich, but the large populations of the Italian cities makes them a bit more. . .restive. Could we please cease talking about putting them to the sword? None have rebelled. This rhetoric serves no purpose.
As for "True Germans", a man from Milan is as much an Imperial citizen as one from Magdeburg. Both settlements were not part of the Reich in 1080, they were both taken from our enemies, the Milanese and the Poles. Much has happened since they were both frontier holdings, rife with yearning for their former masters. Both are now integral parts of the Reich, Magdeburg as a troop center and Milan as a financial one. To denigrate one is to insult the other.
Looking up from various reports Arnold speaks
Bloody hell Matthias, you're a born diplomat!!
Maybe we should have you negotiate with the Horse Lords!!??
Jonas Von Mahren
Matthias.When im talking about Germans.Im talking about Germans. Magdeburg is a German city.While it was in the hands of the rebels before it was captured again.The Holy Roman Empire and German peoples is not the same thing. As Kings of Rome the German Kaisers rule the Holy Roman Empire,but that doesnt mean that dirty Italians or lazy French are Germans even if they are subjects of Holy Roman Empire or that they will ever be Germans like Bavarians,Swabians,Austrians,Francs or Saxons.
Also the people of Outremer are not Germans.And i would say that even a Bavarian,Saxon or Franconian commononer would be insulted if he would be claimed as same as the serfs in Outremer. So i remain in my stand.If the Italian cities wont pay taxes the same amount as God fearing Germans.We should teach them how to start paying their taxes, swiftly and decisevely.
The wise Von Mahren is right, and I think it's good that anyone who is less than half his age atleast listens to what he has to say, as mostlikely he will be more right than you are.
I govern Thorn, and it isn't a German city, the people there are more Polish and Baltic. Prussian to be precise, not German as in Frankfurt and Magdeburg.
Though we can say whatever we want about the citizens, I must point out that the Bavarian governors are still young and very inexperienced. I heard Matthias for example is a poor administrator who lacks justice. That's all simply due to age. I myself am 27 now, and still have many things to learn.
But atleast the people in Thorn are happy.
With all due respect to my elders, Count von Mahren and Count von Kastilien, Milan too was a possesion of the Reich's before it rebelled. It has been reclaimed as well.
As for Thorn, well people are naturally more content within a Castle's walls, either because of the protection or for fear of the garrison.
I would like to believe that after 150 years of Imperial rule, our heartlands are almost exclusively populated by Germans.
I disagree. The Reich as encompassed many different peoples for generations, since they are all freer to move about inside our borders then between them I would imagine that are cities are not as ethnically monotone as they once were.
This portion of the transcript has been hastily but completely scribbled out.
Standing, the Duke of Austria gazes at Sigismund for some time before walking slowly from the Diet chambers motioning for his advisors and Slavic bodyguards to join him
Matthias looks surprised at the commotion.
After some consideration, I will second Edict 10.3
The 10th session of the Diet is closed. Polls will shortly be posted. Debate may continue as normal.
Ansehelm stands and speaks
I've already seen people voting for Edict 10.4, and as a whole there's nothing wrong with it, but I doubt any of them is actually going to perform this mission, as it will be mostlikely me who voluntered for it. I however do wish to suggest that one of them comes with me if Edict 10.4 is approved, so they will find out what the Russian horsemen are like, you can't fight them with an army that can't be reinforced and that lacks the horsemen to counter the Russians.
as I read the edict 10.4 it indicated that reenforcements are to come from local mercinaries(sp), which would be those russian horsemen you speak of.
Sometime later Arnold re-enters the Diet chamber with his advisors and Bodyguards.
Nodding to a few select Lords, he takes his seat and begins reading the voting.
*nods at his father with interest*
If it weren't for the Milanese threat, I would come with you Count of Thorn. I am very much interested in the tactical warfare of the steppe horsemen.
*seems to get lost in his thoughts*
Perhaps if both offensives don't happen in the same time.
You are right Herr Steffen, the mercenaries will be Russian Horsemen, but you seem to forget that the Russians build armies consisting of sometimes only horsemen, I fought one of those. And we keep building old-fashioned infantry heavy armies. Now there's nothing against that, but our solid spear and sword formations miss the agility of the Russian horsemen. Still Moscow should be easy to make would there be enough money to recruit mercenaries.
And yes young Steffen, you should go and fight some Milanese, but beware of the witches on Corsica.
I also would like greatly to go north and Teach the russions what happens when you buy Bavarians. Hopefully, the milanese won't keep us busy for long.
If it would be up to me I would be in Moscow by the time you even reach Thorn
*Ansehelms smiles*
(OOC: as it seems it's best to take a young Franconian, there are many of those. In all other houses people are far too busy)
Sometime later Arnold re-enters the Diet chamber with his advisors and Bodyguards.
Nodding to a few select Lords, he takes his seat and begins reading the voting.
Ansehelm stands
I wish to be the first to congratulate Herr Hümmel with his chancellorship
And I also wish to inform you that I'm more than willing to leave for Moscow right now, would I already have an army. Anyone objecting to me leading the crusade to Moscow should now stand and speak.
Prinz Jobst stands,clearly smiling
Congratulations Ulrich, after years of going for the position you have attained it!
Ansehelm, I have no objections to it, in fact, if I could, I would jin you on your Crusade.
prinz Jobst sits
Well I want to leave as soon as possible. After the two recent battles I've really managed to take out a large part of the Russian army and thus they are weaker now, ensuring a safe passage to atleast Riga. The longer we wait the earlier I will have to fight their reinforcements coming from Bulgar.
One thing I will have to ask for is the recruitement of a spy to inform me of any troops in the area that can be attacked and destroyed.
Matthias scans the election results and visibly exhales.
I too join in congratulating Chancellor Hummel on a hard fought victory. I believe this was the closest election the Reich has ever seen.
I also ask that I be ordered to Outremer as quickly as possible. The Holy Land is under threat, and I will not stand idly by if I can assist.
Ulrich Hummel rises and bows towards his supporters.
I thank you, mein friends, for investing me with this most important honour. I shall not fail you mein friends.
But, I am particularly slighted at the intentions of the Franconians, who had given me some show of supporting me, only to push forward their own candidate.
Ulrich resumes his seat.
As I said Herr Hümmel, you can't not support a candidate from your own house if he hasn't done anything against you. I would have supported you, would it not have been so that Fredericus ran for chancellorship as well.
We supported you the last time, and back then we were the only one to support you. Now we had the choice of continuing, or dropping our own house, and you should agree with me that that's something one should never do.
And I can tell you that we did not push forward a candidate, it was Fredericus own choice to run for chancellorship, none of us had anything to do with it.
It saddens me that Amendment 10.2 has passed essentially halting the expansion of the empire, but to clarify something, I may still capture French territories, but must abandon it and let it rebel afterwards, am i correct?
[Henry:] Duke, by clause (a) of the Amendment 10.2, it is forbidden to capture any territories without authorisation by an Edict. Since Edict 10.3 failed, no French settlements may be captured unless another such Edict is passed.
Congradulations Ulrich, I'm glad to see you in the Chancellor's chair (OOC: 3rd swabian in there in a row?)
I wish you a long and prosperous reign.
A Franconian messenger enters, opens a piece of parchment and starts reading
My Duke and master offers his most sincere congratulations to the newly elected Chancellor. And he hopes past....differences will be forgotten for the good of the Reich. Especially considering the circumstances in which they were forged in the first place. My master has high hopes for this coming term, and is sure Hummel will make a fine chancellor, and see to the needs of all houses - in equal fashion.
The Messenger, obviously relieved, returns to his seat.
:balloon2:
A young Franconian Noble enters the Diet. From his looks it is apparent that he is a descendant of Günther von Kastillien, while the resemblance is not striking enough features point to his heritage.
I would like to also congratulate Ulrich Hummel on his recent election to Chancellor!
I am looking forward to accompany my brother Ansehelm against the Russians. I would have preferred the larger purge suggested by him, but I'll settle for the smaller incursion into Russian territory. This will be my first assignment and I am intent on furthering the glory of the Reich through our deeds!
Ansehelm, still in Rome as he doesn't have his army yet, stands and speaks with loads of sarcasm
Don't worry little brother, at the speed things are going now the next Diet will have started before we leave, then we can get our Edict through
Arnold stands
I behalf of the entire Austrian House I would like to congratulate Lord Hummel on his hard fought victory.
I believe it is been far better for the Riech as a whole to have such a hard fought election.
Just to be clear my Lords, CA 10.2 prevents ANY expansion unless an edict is passed. We are at a halt in expanding the Reich's borders for the next 20 years.
I too would like to congragulate Ulrich Hummel for his hard victory. This election for chancellorship may be the closest that we had ever had in decades and I certainley hope that he will be able to prove the doubts other had against him wrong
Gazing around the deserted chamber Arnold wonders to himself just how this Reich really works.
A few weeks of intense debate is followed by years of long distance communication as the Reich’s leadership conduct their own wars, govern their own provinces and trade their own wares.
Gazing through the vast chamber Arnold can see a few servants polishing the wooden benches. His eyes finally rest on the seat where his Grandfather, Kaiser Heinrich, sat all those years ago. The seat is so worn it has deep groves of darker wood as centuries have past where Emperors have taken their place to rule the Reich.
His mind wanders to the latest drama regarding the House of Austria.
What would the von Mahren's do...would they lay claim to the House of Austria, or leave things as they are...
Looking at his father seat in the Austrian benches Arnold face is lost in thought...finally, he stands and slowly leaves the Diet chamber.
Two men can be seen observing his exit
Lord Chancellor,
Having now read the reports from Outremer I'd like to request that the Austrian representative in the Holy Lands be involved in any planned actions.
Lord Zirn has been sadly neglegted by the previous Chancellors plans.
Diet Speaker: It is with regret that I announce that Kaiser Henry is dead. He passed away peacefully in his sleep at the end of the year of our Lord 1240.
However, I am sure the Electors will join me in welcoming our new leader and chair of the Diet, Kaiser Jobst.
The Kaiser is dead. Long live the Kaiser!
*Lothar Steffen walks into the Diet and takes his seat with the Bavarian delegation. He looks around the room and grins.*
Long live Kaiser Jobst!
Arnold stands
Kaiser is Dead!! Long Live the Kaiser!!