Surprisingly bad units

penguin, can we drop discussion of thessaslians
we had 2 or 3(?) whole pages of thessalians denouncers vs supporters back last month

pantadopi is good in ideal situations
i mean
im playing rome and took Kyrene in africa (ptolemaio+ carthage at war w/ me)
and i basically got an all hoplite army + pantadopi
my hoplite basically holds the main road and pantadopi the sides
one thing i like them for
i left them on guard mode in a side road (theres 2units)
and while the main army assaults the hoplites
ptolemaic agemas etc attacks them for a full 2 minutes andpantadopi lost half the men but i had archers/slingers/javlins on them and soon.... next thing u know
i routed 2 ptolemaic elite phalanx + 2 agema + klerouchi and a machimo
lost only 70 pantadopi men and gained 2 exp bars
that was the day i decided pantadopi is good... only if u tire them out and have 2 units redy to flank

well they are utterly horible alone in pitched fihgts, but if theyre properly supported, they can be deadly to any units....similar to what happened to the makedonian succesors
lack of support = total defeat and conquer by legions!

Please adress me as penguinking, not just penguin. :laugh4:

But yes, I will drop the Thessalians. But I will never concede that Pantapodoi can ever be good. I have yet to get over the time I looked at them and thought "Spearmen? Hmmm. They're probably able to beat exhausted and wavering super-light missile cavalry in melee." I was wrong.

Have you tried guard mode with them? I remember using Pantodopai as Romani pre-Marian and while they weren't world-beaters they would hold an enemy long enough in guard mode. Heck i even beat AI Saba armies with an all-Pantodopai army, though admittedly it was due mainly to the fact that i had 20 units of Panto's and their armies were usually half-stack at best. I would actually have to say that Lugoae rank as really bad, worse than Panto's for me. Even in guard mode they seemed to melt away too much for my liking.
EDIT: And yes, i have beaten HA's with them when they are foolish enough to get into melee. Non-exhausted ones, at that.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

The Pantodapoi are good for one thing: Garrison duty. The Kavakaza Sparabara are better simply because of their superior traits, a longer spear, and because Hayasadan has to rely on them early on, and they can get the job done when supported by [great] eastern archers.

No single unit is terrible: it's all in context and use.

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Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

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Pantodapoi aren't even good for that. Levy hoplites are both cheaper and better. Better armour, better morale. And cost you less. Pantodapoi are worthless.

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No, I totally agree. I'm just saying they're not so terrible if you have no other options. I still recruit persian archers as garrison over them, and always disband them on sight, and that they get slaughtered by everything.

Although Pantodapoi don't really qualify for this thread, since they're not a 'surprisingly' bad unit.

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

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That may be true. I think there are other units that are more cost effective as garrison units, but I'm not sure. But I think this thread is about battlefield performance.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Pantodapoi are worthless in battle, but they are good at garrisoning. They have the max amount of men per unit and are pretty cheap -> max public order effect.

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Levy hoplites; cheaper, better, actually of some use should that garrison actually be called to do something besides loiter around.

My EDU says that Hoplitai Haploi cost 202 upkeep and 809 recruitment, and for Pantodapoi its 224 upkeep and 896 recruiting them. Given that Pantodapoi have 240 men on *cough* huge scale, the same amount of men of Levy Hoplites would actually cost 303 in upkeep and 1212 in recruitment. Or am I doing something completely wrong here?

Apart from writing 'large' when the scale is called 'hughe'? :grin: No, not really; though you may want to prefer Akontistai at 202 upkeep for 240 men, or Artish Pada at 203 for 240 men.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Apart from writing 'large' when the scale is called 'hughe'? :grin: No, not really; though you may want to prefer Akontistai at 202 upkeep for 240 men, or Artish Pada at 203 for 240 men.

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I stand corrected. Funny that I have built Akontistai accidentaly when I wanted to build Pantodapoi quite a few times. But this is because they both wear brown I guess.:grin:

Goidillic noble infantry just don't seem all that special to me, I may be using them wrong but they just beg the image of wading into a melee hacking limbs and heads with every attack and no man can penetrate their shining armour.

Well, it does seem you have gotten slightly the wrong idea of them. They are indeed great heavy shock infantry, but not that great. Still love charging them in the back of some Gallic levies though. Insta-death.

They're basically Midlander Champions in terms of stats afaik, but available as regionals.

To be honest, I prefer the Ordmalica (Goidilic Shock Infantry). Or even better, the Eiras attack the enemy from the front, keep them busy and chip away at their numbers while the Ordmalica flank and crash into them from behind with those huge hammers raised on high. Magnificent.

To resurrect this thread here is a fresh comment:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...ly_hastati.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...an_hastati.gif

These fellows are technically worthless compared to their Principes counterparts, yet I keep using them merely for roleplay. Otherwise my sheer battlefield punch wouldn't suffer as now.

I have to agree that Hastati go down like flies

Until they get some experience... theres a number of units that are really shitty till they get 1 or 2 chevs to their name. Massalians dont hold up well till they get that first chevron, though they are my favourite, I think it has to do with the moral bonus' given when they get experience.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...se_calawre.gif

These guys are a hinderance to my army. They have no stamina, so tire extremely easy (slowing down the rest of the army). I'm almost tempted to mod the EDU file.

They are 'surprisingly bad' because they are an elite unit (who should be fit), and are expensive

By the way, I love Casse; the varied units, the body paintings, all beautiful.

The image ain't showing.

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Hastasi (Camillan) are completely worthless, chevrons or no. Indeed, if they have chevrons they have stolen them unless experience is awarded for not killing anything, dying at the slightest provocation and then running away. If you cannot afford the little bit extra for Principes then your empire is a failure and you should really only be contemplating your next campaign. I hear the point for role-playing, but I just brush it away that in my empire all young men are better trained, outfitted and 'apprenticed' by seasoned warriors than they were historically. Hence no need for Hastasi. Actually I think it is simply a matter of sefl-preservation on vh/vh with a personal 'house' rule that I must re-start a campaign as soon as I lose my first battle (including naval ones). "Bloody Pirates!".

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Originally Posted by Joszen1

Actually I think it is simply a matter of sefl-preservation on vh/vh with a personal 'house' rule that I must re-start a campaign as soon as I lose my first battle (including naval ones). "Bloody Pirates!".

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Quite ahistorical regarding the character of the Romans.

Hastati are pretty good for their cost, only 1000 or so to recruit.

hippes are crap. they are supposed to be... but holy crap they are crap! they do nothing against medium-heavish infantry, and are hopeless against professional hoplites

Almost every unit in EB is useful, even if they suck. I often find myself hiring ridiculously expensive and also absurdly weak Pontus Spearmen when I am desperately in need of men in my excursion into Asia Minor. I guess these bastards have a monopoly on the merc market...so the quality of products they offer declines. >_<

@ gamegeek2, I hear you, I was just venting cause I lost a pretty important battle and needed something to blame. As I saw it my Hastati had failed to live up to Roman standards of bravery.

@ Centurio Nixalsverdrus, :shame::embarassed::sweatdrop:, I am ok. Maybe I'm just not a very good general and will never succeed in conquering an entire map without losing a single battle. I hear you on the historicity though, but shouldn't Hastati become Principes -with experience - if everything were true to reality? I am humbled and will start again, making much use of Hastati. I will also write a nice AAR about it so my historical inaccuracies can be further lambasted. (Bear in mind I am a South African so what I know I have found out in on my own time).

@ Intranetusa, indeed, for all things there is a season. But I don't think that is the point of this forum, I think it offers the opportunity for EB players to discuss how they have been seriously surprized (in their own idiocy) and 'let down' by a particular unit. All the units have a purpose because this is a superb, awe-inspiring mod!

Wow,i feel like in Mythbusters.
Keep it coming boys.
*goes to :book:

Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...