It's the deathtoll only until 1 februari, it's now the 13th. Going to be much higher maybe thousands by now, but what did you expect really. Kudo's to Egypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
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It's the deathtoll only until 1 februari, it's now the 13th. Going to be much higher maybe thousands by now, but what did you expect really. Kudo's to Egypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12443678
Egyptian military dissolves parliament and announces it will retain power for at least 6 months. Ah well, it was good whilst it lasted..
It's all good, would be the biggest mistake ever to not have the support of the army now. Do you want the brotherhood instead? They have publically said they don't won't cause a ruckus, wouldn't upset them. I don't believe them but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
What happens in 5 months will tell the tale.Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
Yeah, this is a very delicate time, not only becasue of the role Militaries have played in changing governments (i.e. setting up millitary dictatorships a la Pakistan or Thailand).Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
I have to say I was a bit nervous when they announced the dissolution of parliament but it IS a process they have to go through in order to clear out the vested interests of Mubarak's regime, as much as possible anyway. Frankly, I'm not surprised that some people have been trying to stay-on in the square...
On the other hand, the country does need to pick itself back up economicaly, so people do have to go back to work (assuming they have a job). I just hope they are able to come out into the streets again should they ever need to during the next 6 months (and beyond).
It's certainly not going to be plain sailing from now on, Egypt is still a mess and will remain so for a good while. I hope egyptians have the patience to work through things and accept that difficult decisions have to be taken, which are bound to hit people in many ways.
Meanwhile, seems to me that most of the commentators in U.S. media are asking the most important question of all: How is this all about us?
An essayist has a good set of questions for those on the right who do not like the idea of Egyptian democracy;
Look, I’m not naïve, and I’m no Pollyanna. I’m well aware of the vast differences between the Judeo-Christian tradition and the Muslim tradition. The political, religious and cultural hurdles to liberal democracy in Egypt and the Middle East are huge. I know that. But what is the alternative?
Another dictator? How long would he last? How long could he last in this day and age of instantaneous communication, 24/7 cable television, Twitter, Facebook and the Internet?
As Winston Churchill put it, liberal democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest.
Moreover, right-wing critics don’t seem to understand that although Egypt and the Middle East are regressive in key respects, they need not remain so forever and ever.
“What we want to see happen in Arab lands and in Iran,” writes Reuel Marc Gerecht, “is real intellectual competition—the starting point for healthy evolution. In particular, we want to see devout Sunni Muslims in Egypt try to figure out what exactly are ‘Islamic values.’”
That, in fact, is the great thing about democracy: It gives the citizenry the right to discuss and debate issues. It gives them the right to try and change people’s minds. It gives them the opportunity to fix and remedy their mistakes. [...]
But the right-wing critics don’t get it.
Conservatives also talk as if the United States is powerless to shape and to effect history. But we’re not — far from it. And so, we should be exercising all elements of national power — political, economic, cultural and military — to move history, in Egypt and elsewhere, in a liberal democratic direction.
Will Egypt make mistakes and cause us problems and difficulties? Undoubtedly. But again, what is the alternative? What do the right-wing critics, such as Hannity and Levin, Gingrich and Gaffney, propose instead?
Well consider me a rightwing sceptic. The more radical elements of the brotherhood can gain power really fast if things don't change really fast, and things won't. They have been prosecuted for ages (with good reason) and can use the momentum. That armyboy Hussain everybody cheering on used to be in charge of the torture rooms, he's not a very nice guy, just saying
Do you think the educated, Anglophone youth is waiting for weekly stonings or something like that? I don't think so. Egypt is not quite Afghanistan.Quote:
Well consider me a rightwing sceptic. The more radical elements of the brotherhood can gain power really fast if things don't change really fast, and things won't.
Agreed sure even America had to wait years an years before it was a true democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
The alternative is another rerun of operation ajax and look how that turned out.
No I don't, but what they are getting might not be what they ever wanted, be a little realistic. I'd sleep with a gun under my pillow if I were them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mad Arab
Yes, they should take care. They may not get alle they wanted.Quote:
No I don't, but what they are getting might not be what they ever wanted, be a little realistic. I'd sleep with a gun under my pillow if I were them.
But speaking about realism, it's not very realistic that the extreme fringes of the Muslim Brotherhood, who lost a huge amount of their popular support back in '95 will take power. I have to say that a similiar thing happened in Iran, when the Tudeh (leftist) party originally supported Khomeini (yet their head was the only party leader that refused to have his portrait in the office) they were later betrayed by him and a large number of their party members were arrested (in '82).
However, the Egyptian revolution is not religious in nature where Iran's revolution was. The Egyptian Sunni clergy is more divided than the organised hierarchy of the Iranian Shi'ite Twelvers. It's not likely that thousands of people will protest in the streets in support of the Muslim Brothers.
Iranian revolution was also not religious it was about corruption (and a western puppet) it was the middle class that brought it in. Things are frighteningly similar in Egypt right now. I'm kinda curious what your dad is thinking about what's happening. It isn't just about Egypt the whole Arab world is burning up
True, but there is a disrepancy in the level of education of the middle class of 70's Iran and present-day Egypt. Who knows for sure, though?Quote:
Iranian revolution was also not religious it was about corruption (and a western puppet) it was the middle class that brought it in. Things are frighteningly similar in Egypt right now. I'm kinda curious what your dad is thinking about what's happening. It isn't just about Egypt the whole Arab world is burning up
As for my father, we're hoping the revolution will spread to Algeria. It would be a good thing, he thinks. He's been following the Egyptian revolution too, in fact, he called me moments after Mubarak resigned.
Military rulers appoint retired judge as head of committee tasked with suggesting changes to country's constitution.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...30198336.html#Quote:
Egypt's new army rulers have appointed Tareq al-Bishry, a retired judge, to head a committee set up to suggest constitutional changes.
Al-Bishry was a strong supporter of an independent judiciary during Hosni Mubarak's rule and is respected in legal circles for his independent views.
"I have been chosen by the Higher Military Council to head the committee for constitutional amendments," al-Bishry said on Tuesday.
The Higher Military Council had earlier vowed to rewrite the constitution within 10 days and put it to a referendum within two months.
The existing constitution, which the military council has suspended, had built-in guarantees to keep Mubarak and his allies in power.
The amendments added during his rule strengthened the establishment's grip on power.
The appointment of al-Bishry comes as the military rulers, in control of the country following the ouster of Mubarak, are attempting to restore normalcy after weeks of turmoil.
I think this is an encouraging sign, it can't be easy to pick the right kind of people from within Egypt's elite...
Probably will get your way with Algeria, heard there is some serious unrest there as well. Only Marocco seems to be calm. A shame all eyes are on Egypt, understandable but this is much bigger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Some links in no particular order:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...347446530.html
http://parkerspitzer.blogs.cnn.com/2...nrest-spreads/
http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurar...e.html?showall
http://www.staradvertiser.com/column...n_mideast.html
america still capable of winning the war of ideas:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/lexin...rica_and_arabs
I think you mean, America is well placed to win the war of ideas. Its approach is all wrong. Its reactions to the emerging revolution were confused, its influence (in Egypt) is largely rejected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
I agree that as a beacon of liberty, freedom of expression and democracy, America is as well placed as ever. However, its foreign policy of readily obscuring the lantern of demcoracy/freedom to keep the world amenable to its own interests is counter-productive.
If America really wants to put its money where its mouth is, i.e. that everyone is equal and deserves democracy and rights, then it will have to change its foreign policy and overcome a good deal of ill-will that it's caused itself.
i'm not disagreed on that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by alh_p
Just saw a bit of Hillary Clinton's interview with someone on Al-Jazeera about the ongoing protests. The hypocrisy, incredible. Talking about how "her heart is with the Iranian people" and "they are standing up against the dictators" and that kind of stuff. Would've been more impressed if she would say the same thing about Ben Ali or Mubarak. Go ahead, say the same thing about Bouteflika, mrs Clinton.
I'm a bit concerned about the Muslim brotherhood at this point. Who will win the philosophical battle within the ranks? On the one hand, you've got a moderate wing of young and sensible people who recognize an individuals right to practice their religion, even conservatice Islam, within a secular state. On the other hand you have radical xenophobes who are looking who are looking for both a nuclear holocaust of Israel and an Islamic state. My limited opinion of what should occur is based on optimism combined with basic principles; remain together in the face of brutal opposition, fragment when times get better.
Hopefully, when the brotherhood is not faced with regime persecution, they can fragment into two main parties.
In the one camp could be a party much like the Christian Democrats in Germany or the Justice and Development party in Turkey. Parties who believe that Religion should play a central role in the daily life of the practitioner, while recognizing the destructive capabilities that a theocracy would pose.
The other could consist of a far right party that, losing a third of its support and consisting of only the curmudgeon elderly and illogical and deranged youth would be stuck in a downward spiral.
In summary, a healthy development rests on the assumption that any new nation enshrines basic freedoms into the constitution - this will be the real test. Speech and assembly are important, due process as well. Particularly in the case of religious states, seperation of church and state laws and freedom of religion are the lynchpins in the freddom fabric. Without them, you get Iran, no ifs, ands, or buts.
There's moderate Islamism and then there's extreme Islamism. They are both present in the ranks of the Muslim Brotherhood, but the second group is nothing more than a fringe. Popular support for a declaration of war on Israel or the imposure of an Islamic state is hardly present.
The thing is that if parliamentary elections are held, the extremists will have to talk to the moderates (I'm still talking about Islamists here). I don't think it's a very good idea if the Islamists are alienated from parliament as that will probably only prove to be a gateway for truly radical ideas to creep in.
Hmm I wonder what will democracy mean in Eygpt for the wider world economically with regard to the Suez canal.
I know it's not as important as it was but it's could still hurt your economy if say you backed Israel in a Gaza dispute and the Eygptians refused your ships through on principle.
I cant help feeling having a democracy in Eygpt is the last thing an Israeli support wants at the minute.
Sod Israel for now, they have more than enough than enough to defend themselves with even in the worst case scenario. Brotherhood is running for election, now what did they say earlier. They said what we like hearing
For consideration, army has always rejected extremism, but it can get a hold. Democracy can be dangerous
And I was railing against the economist falling for the duplicity of "umurica is a beacon of freedom & democracy", as if it achieves this in a vaccuum...Quote:
Originally Posted by Furunculus
Except they cant say sod Eygpt in return now can they, Israeli freedom of action will be curtailed and they know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Kidding me, the Israeli's are going to get some time of to get a tan. This is why they always needed IsraelQuote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
They said they are not interested in being a part of the government. They're likely not going to talk about forming a coalition, but will remain in opposition, probably.Quote:
Brotherhood is running for election, now what did they say earlier.
Yeah, not clear to my knowledge whether this is aiming at Paliamentary elections or the Presidential ones. There is a difference because (to my knowledge) their communiques had said they would not partake in Presidential elections, parliamentary elections conspicuous by their absence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Regardless, they don't really have a choice. If they didn't engage with politics they would become no more than a social action group -whereas they have always had a social and political agenda.
Now your kidding have you noticed any statements at all for an international audience from Israel at all, I certainly have heard none at least not yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
They are worried eygpt is a big deal military wise in fact eygpt has historically been an engine for change in the Middle East if you dont think that chages Israeli calculations then you are really mistaken.
They wont be able to count on Eygpt turning a blind eye to Gaza politically.