Sorceror 17er Game Thread

im going to slice this first post backwards, for no other reason than i want to save the part i feel strongest about for last, although all of it bothers me

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Originally Posted by Cape90

#27 is a little odd to me in response to an early vote. Katze's response to the age old question of "why me" seems pretty justified in #29.

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okay, so, a lot of cape's early posting can be summed up as "doesn't get jokes". now, not getting jokes isn't inherently wolfy. but take note of the verbiage here - "a little odd". not only is it hedgy it stops short of actually making a call on my alignment - "odd" does not equate to "wolfy", townies can be "odd". it's a little thing but often wolves tend to avoid directly actually calling anything wolfy.

additionally he says katze's response seems "justified" - what parts of that post seem justified? it's...an obvious joke about voting "sleep" to take a nap. it's messing around, there's

again, not getting a joke is not a crime in and of itself but it doesn't seem to me like he's actually reading what is being said in a critical way

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Originally Posted by Cape90

Zack's post on page 1 #22, it just looks like a lot of busy work that really doesn't do anything with it. I feel like this is some post by post analysis that newer town tend to do and given zack has probs played mafia longer then me :boxedin:.

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now, running back in time 5 seconds, we have another instance of cape not getting a fairly obvious joke

the problem here is he's only responding to this post with a cookie-cutter, broad brushstroke argument - "busywork". what parts of that post seem like busywork? we don't know, because cape doesn't respond to any of the content within. to me this looks like he's making reads based on form rather than content, which is again wolfy because it's a sign that he's not actually reading the game critically - if he had actually tried to engage with any of the "points" zack made in that post i'd be willing to give credit for being tryhardy even if he missed an obvious joke. but as it is, it doesn't look like he actually tried to meaningfully evaluate the stuff zack was saying, because I think if anyone puts more than two seconds of thought into reading his words they'd say "oh, this is an obvious joke".

as it is, it looks like he saw that it looked like a post by post analysis list and decided to call it busy work and shade it. he didn't stop to actually read it.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

Surprised to see nobody say words on this as I feel like a lot of players tend to scumread this sort of early mechanics talk as being easy content or whatever. As for myself, I just don't think the read really works a good amount of time, but I just wanted to just point this out.

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this part here is just...super wolfy? "hey guys, surprised no one is calling this wolfy, i mean i dont, but you might?". it's such a bizzre comment to make, like he's tossing out a bit of bait to see if someone will bite, but keeping his own distance from it. the problem is this: if he doesn't believe that sort of thing is a meaningful tell, why bring it up at all?

it just doesn't read like a natural thought at all. when someone doesn't think a post is alignment indicative, they typically don't talk about it. but here he's simultaneously trying to shade the post and distance himself from it. i dont get the sense this is something said by someone who is trying to find wolves.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

I appreciate the try here, but I just don't see it. :shrug:

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"i don't see it" in response to an early wolfread push. not inherently bad in and of itself, but it is the kind of thing wolves frequently say in the earlygame - being dismissive of early wolfreads is an easy way to fake content, because all they have to do is disagree with people. wolves rarely are the type to lead a charge on someone so they'll often hold back when someone makes a stretchy case in the early game

i can sense some people probably rolling their eyes at this, and that's fine, it's a very minor point but i still wanted to discuss it because it pinged me. like i said, by itself this isn't a strong point at all because it can easily be said by a villager, but within the body of work i find it problematic.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

I have no idea what to think about EnderWiggin's whole take on the nebjiamn content thing.

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says nothing, does nothing.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

In a sort of random way, I like Newcomb's response to the EnderWiggin post I just quoted.

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what, exactly, is there to like about this post? it's kind of generically agreeable in that it makes a point about how to play the game, and I agree that some forward momentum is preferable to a tepid, stagnant game, but it doesn't actually give me feelings on newcomb's alignment one way or the other. and again the verbiage of "in a sort of random way" is another statement that doesn't really do anything except to soften the read that follows.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

You know, I don't actually like this read all that much on EnderWiggin as I feel like what Ender has been doing has been sort of villagery for actually the same reasons why ladd suspects Ender.

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first point, he "doesn't like" a read. but does it mean anything for ladds alignment? he doesn't bother to say. it's easy to agree or disagree with things other people say, but what is harder is to generate your own analysis and thoughts. and what we have is that he is "sort of villagery" (again, more soft language) for "actually the same reasons", which...doesn't make sense at all? it doesn't actually meaningfully address the points ladd is making. why is he villagery for mostly responding to things or "posting just to post"? it's a totally half-baked response, there's nothing in cape's posts that gives a real indicator of why he thinks ender is villagery.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

I am gonna take a shot in the dark and say that Benneh's read on a person who has only posted once isn't a deep read.

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This is a very pedantic sort of dismissal to ender that doesn't really engage with the substance of the argument being made at all. "you said he was putting it forward as if it was a deep read, but it was on one post so it can't be deep at all". which, okay, but he very clearly meant it as a serious read, and cape selectively cuts off the latter parts of his post where ender gets into the more elaborate parts of his thinking about how wolves sometimes try to get too serious too early and hard switch. it doesnt look like hes meaningfully evaluating or considering enders words, just blandly dismissing a point he feels is eay to shoot down. this looks like cape isnt actually trying to read neb or ender. it kind of feeds back into what i said earlier about wolves tending to spend a lot of time in the early game shooting down reads rather than trying to solve.

(fwiw, i did like nebjiamn trying to make a serious accusation early there, and i think the antsiness to move the game forward and disappointment at being engaged with is towny. i didnt really want to respond to the read at the time though because th read itself felt stretchy and it would be more useful to see how the person being accused responds to it rather than saying anything myself. i think dobbys response to it is fine for now. i dont agree with enders take that it could be a wolf play although i understand the reasoning)

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Originally Posted by Cape90

I just am so confused on katze's whole "wall" post that it almost looks really wolfy to me. At least I get the wolfy feelings in the first part of the post and especially the last part of the post.

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this is maybe the most egregious instance of cape's hedgy verbiage - why qualify the read in this way? how can something almost look really wolfy?i can find it understandable only finding something slightly suspicious in the early game, but this just comes across like he's afraid to throw a punch. reads very unnatural. either it's really wolfy or it isn't.

that is to say nothing of how again this is an egregious misreading of katze's post - if he was actually paying attention he'd have noticed the second line talks about a "pasta" and i assume cape is at least familiar enough with the concept of "copypasta" to know what that means.

and again not getting smeone's inside joke is not a crime, but what this again demonstrates is that cape is not really reading posts critically, but selectively, picking and choosing things to comment on. he picks out the first and last lines to attack while missing the part that tells him the bottom part of the post is fake and therefore irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Cape90

just wanted to say on the topic of that wallpost thing though. It felt like an almost genuine attempt at doing something with the early posts while my wall was literally not at all :shrug:

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again with the verbiage heavy on qualifiers, cape can hardly make a read without distancing himself from it

and again he can't actually bring himself to say how the post was supposed to be an "attempt at doing something". he doesn't engage with the substance at all. zack called something like 90% of the posts to that point wolfy, which is obviously absurd. i dont...get the sense cape was actually reading or evaluating that post in a meaningful way, just glossing it over and assuming it had to have been serious

i am willing to give sunbae a smidgen of village credit since he was seeing some of the same things i was in those posts

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Originally Posted by katze

luckily for you, squinting at my opinions is my towntell

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That's my secret Katze, I squint at everyone and then some of them end up being wolves.

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Originally Posted by Monstrdude

Spicy take

I don't think anyone's been villagy

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feels like spicy for the sake of spicy

Sleep, what did this say initially:

"additionally he says katze's response seems "justified" - what parts of that post seem justified? it's...an obvious joke about voting "sleep" to take a nap. it's messing around, there's "

There's what? (I'm reading through it)

not really a fan of monsters posts so far

:rtwno:

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Originally Posted by nebjiamn

i don't really see the stuff ladd is saying about ender as wolfy, but i might need to re-read his guide to villaging. i do think ladd's choice of words that he was going to "help" me are interesting in italics.

there are two things that ping me re: ender

1) him claiming my post on dobby was presented as a deep read. i don't really see how someone can come to that conclusion? it was served up as a way to get people out of copypasta mode (slight mission accomplished!) more than anything else. the thoughts themselves are real but when someone suggests deep read its definitely going to be more than just tonal/filler accusations against a 1-poster.

i'm tempering 1 a bit because i don't think i can be the best judge of how my post re: dobby came across since i'm aware of the intent behind it. plus, ladd said i needed help, maybe i appeared to be struggling, lol. i also think ender's Wendy's reply kind of fits with his thinking that it appeared as a deep read.

2) "so I literally can't care enough to tell everyone why that could be a wolf play." this line/snippet from just pings me from a different mindset. why the default to explaining why it can't be a wolf play vs can't be a village play or just NAI? for clarity, this is not a deep read :) but it does ping me as a weird way to hedge the end of that post after saying you appreciated me starting the game off with a watery weak read.

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now, although this post is taking issue with enders post in a similar way to cape, it goes a couple layers deeper in picking it apart and actually tries to assign a motive to it. it also makes sense for him to be a bit on edge since he's the one being talked about and presumably feels enders characterization of his post is unfair.

personally, i *see* what this is saying but im not *sure* its wolf-indicative for ender, necessarily

however, i like the process here and think nebjiamn (can i just call u ben?) is p. towny

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

Sleep, what did this say initially:

"additionally he says katze's response seems "justified" - what parts of that post seem justified? it's...an obvious joke about voting "sleep" to take a nap. it's messing around, there's "

There's what? (I'm reading through it)

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hmm, guess i never got around to finishing that thought, i had that post sitting in notepad for a few hours and didnt edit it, my fault for hitting publish on my first draft. i think what i was going for is "it's messing around, there's nothing substantial about it that you could agree with"

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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Yeah but Benneh put it forward as if it was a deep read.

Wolves struggle more in casual freeposting early when it starts to sort of tread water when the lines between shitposting and actual reads blur because it's more difficult to fake feeling legit takes with TMI.

So often they tend to make a hard switch from shitposting to "reads" because clearly defined situations are easier to fake.

Also, 12 hours of 48 is small.

I was gonna say let me have this casual game to just fuck around with but I guess that ain't happening.

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I didn't get that impression that he was putting it forward as something super deep or meaningful. I thought the lampshading that he was starting the game implied that he knew it wasn't.

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Originally Posted by katze

this game is awkward because i have the impression that it's optimal for me to not really express concerns on certain players or even fake townreads on them but basically the entire list encompasses those players

and like, i'm not going to post the "look, here's what's going to happen" pasta and vote someone i perceive to be outside of that list of players

however:

Look, here's what's going to happen:

We're going to lunch someone, probably someone in the perceived lower half of skill level of the players in the game that had the most uninspired d1 by t0an and/or volume; hopefully we're right

The wolves are going to SPK someone, probably ladd if he's a villager and/or has something that could be minimally construed as a correct fakepeek, and then some other shit may or may not happen and we'll have NK/mechanical stuff to talk about

It's hard to gin up enthusiasm when the real game isn't actually going to start for the better part of 48 hours, and having half the playerlist act like they're all clever for voting me because there's a 25% chance they could be right and have gotten in on the ground floor is just stupid, and it's insulting that you think it would be at all productive regardless of my role

vote: Newcomb

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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BrokenSpot...an-max-1mb.gif

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Originally Posted by zack

not really a fan of monsters posts so far

:rtwno:

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idk i townlean him aorn

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Originally Posted by Monstrdude

Feels off to me

Caveat I don't think I know you that well

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think this post expressing concerns on sleep without throwing in the essentially "why me" post from sleep is >rand villagery

ive read and digested the sleep wallpost and sure i can play ball with it for now

vote: Cape90

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Originally Posted by Newcomb

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BrokenSpot...an-max-1mb.gif

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https://i.imgur.com/Vt9qZ8J.png

no gold trophies? p weaksauce, broski

sheep sleep?

yes, i think i shall

vote: cape

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Originally Posted by Cuthillius

i had the same instinct off the bat, but i sorta like some things from their more recent posts and i think they're gonna stick out a bit in this lineup just in terms of style and overlapping circles of familiarity anyway

and i kinda want to see what happens if we let them do their thing for now

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This is such a cuth post.

I forgot how much I instinctively want to wolfread you.

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Originally Posted by katze

ive read and digested the sleep wallpost and sure i can play ball with it for now

vote: Cape90

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bah!

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

bah!

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your post rhymed so it's automatically better than mine, don't worry

my wife just walked in, tried to talk to me, paused for a moment, and then said "you're playing that game again, aren't you?"

:shame:

Cape seems more like mischop bait to me than a wolf :shrug:

I guess the massive wall is hypothetically villagy but it seems so unnecessary to go in that hard in so much detail this early

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Originally Posted by Cape90

Surprised to see nobody say words on this as I feel like a lot of players tend to scumread this sort of early mechanics talk as being easy content or whatever. As for myself, I just don't think the read really works a good amount of time, but I just wanted to just point this out.

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Zack's post on page 1 #22, it just looks like a lot of busy work that really doesn't do anything with it. I feel like this is some post by post analysis that newer town tend to do and given zack has probs played mafia longer then me :boxedin:.

#27 is a little odd to me in response to an early vote. Katze's response to the age old question of "why me" seems pretty justified in #29.

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I've skimmed ahead enough to know that people jump on this so I probably don't need to do anything here I'd imagine? I'll just hold all cape thoughts until I fully catch up.

What's cape's overall experience level?

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Originally Posted by Winston Hughes

my wife just walked in, tried to talk to me, paused for a moment, and then said "you're playing that game again, aren't you?"

:shame:

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I assume she then berated you for not playing champs

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Originally Posted by zack

I assume she then berated you for not playing champs

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:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by zack

Cape seems more like mischop bait to me than a wolf :shrug:

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very possible and i have some confidence i can read into which he is correctly at some point today but i still have no qualms applying a bit of pressure early :hide:

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Originally Posted by Newcomb

I've skimmed ahead enough to know that people jump on this so I probably don't need to do anything here I'd imagine? I'll just hold all cape thoughts until I fully catch up.

What's cape's overall experience level?

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iirc cape is newer, MU account registered may 2021

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Originally Posted by zack

I assume she then berated you for not playing champs

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im sure she tried to vote winston but was denied by the evil dolby

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Originally Posted by zack

Cape seems more like mischop bait to me than a wolf :shrug:

I guess the massive wall is hypothetically villagy but it seems so unnecessary to go in that hard in so much detail this early

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id rather take a swing at the strongest read i have and see what responses it provokes, get some good ~discourse~ rolling. i had planned to hold off until closer to the 24 hour mark but felt like the conversation was drifting a bit so it was a good time to lay my cards on the table

anyway I was really hoping Winston would storm in here drunk as hell and call all my posts wolfy with pimp emojis

:whip:

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Originally Posted by zack

anyway I was really hoping Winston would storm in here drunk as hell and call all my posts wolfy with pimp emojis

:whip:

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there'll be plenty of time for that, don't you worry

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Originally Posted by Sleep

the reads on him were hedged in a jokey sort of way (that i think is typical of early game and not really alignment indicative) but i assume the sentimen behind them is at least somewhat real or they wouldn't express it

well i can go into all the problems i have with the stuff he posted but i don't want to explain it just yet

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Not a super impactful read but I do think if cape = w and especially if zack also= v then Sleep's like never ever a wolf. Being the second person to jump on this stuff after zack, while showing a pretty big awareness of cape's position in the thread - especially that zack kind of jokey townread him - gives him like the perfect ultra sweet opportunity to double down on a bus or pre-bus, instead he's got a very natural post here where he's more focused on the reactions to cape instead of laying out the problems he has with the post. As w/w with cape here he's really really gonna want those problems on the record, and not as like the 4th or 5th person to jump on it.

Read Sleep's wall. I think my biggest noteworthy comment is a disagreement on what the post involving Mont was. Sleep is referring to it as potential bait as a wolf throwing shade at a villager while also distancing from the read. I've read it more as a wolf seeing a wolf make a post, thinking it was very wolfy because they have the answer, and then being confused when others didn't pick up on it. Kind of like the inverse of my pet read of "wolf who sees a wall by a villager, assumes it has to be villagery, and snap calls it a towny post".

As for the entire point of it: it verbalizes some of the issues I've been having with Cape so far. I see a few people already jumped on so I'll probably try to find my own thing to do just for wagon building/pressuring but in spirit I'm on board with this push right now.

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Originally Posted by Sunbae

I'm struggling to parse Cape simultaneously making a wall post about avatar reads and throwing suspicion on people for jokey posts on the first page and a half. Could be wolfy fake suspicion that doesn't flow well or could just be a villager making a shift in seriousness quickly. Maybe someone else has a better take on it.

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Now that, on the other hand...

I think I'm supposed to take "this is a bus" insinuations as a positive thing right?

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Originally Posted by zack

anyway I was really hoping Winston would storm in here drunk as hell and call all my posts wolfy with pimp emojis

:whip:

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I might not have pimp emojis but I can call your posts wolfy with spongebob gifs if you'd like