Historical myths

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Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder

The whole Greek-Macedonian discussion is extremely interesting...

About the Macedonian identity: compare this to the European settlers of America. Especially among younger and lesser informed people, there is another myth that America before the independence war was completely in the hands of England, in reality only a small portion. Of all the Americans, few were English by ethnicity (Anglo Saxon), the rest were Spanish, French, Dutch or of other European descent.
Yet today, we consider the US (not just the original English colonies) to belong to the same Anglo-Saxon cultural group that England belongs too, even though only a small part of the Americans actually has Anglo-Saxon blood running through their veins.
So the Macedonians, and later the Diadochi, were certainly part of the same culture as the old polises wether you call that culture Helenic or Greek. To deny that Alexander was a figure in Greek/Helenic culture and history is, well, incredibly stupid.

(I know this has been discussed at lenght before, but seeing Ceasar44's locked poll, I couldn't resist)

Advo-San: I read somewhere that the Byzantines considered the word "Helene" synonymous to "heathen". Is this correct? Did they look on classical Greek/Helenic culture with contempt?

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My favourite topic.. ~;)
@Germaanse
About your question first.
-It is true that the Byzantines were using the word Helene as a synonyme to "heathen" and they waged war on the remains of the Old Religion. But do not be mistaken.
-The religion was the only thing under persecution, not the whole culture. We owe the survival of the ancient philosophers to the byzantine, vis a vis christian monks, who copied the old scrolls long before the Arab Muslims took up the task.
-Truely, most christian temples in Greece are actually built in the spots where Olympian Gods' temples once stood. But in the years of the Empire, denying Christ was not a religious declaration, but an act against imperial authority. Constantine and his successors decided that the cohesive force behind the Empire would be Christianity and the ones who were following the Olympian tradition were actually denying the Emperor.
-On the other hand, hellenic/greek culture was very important for the Emperors. I should only mention The Translation of the 70 . By Imperial word, the Holy Scripts were translated to Greek, for the people to understand it. The purpose was obvious. The Emperors would use the dominating culture to impose their authority. All they had to do was modify a huge part of this culture, the Religion... One Empire, under one God, and one Emperor to rule it.. It was a simple plan afterall.
-Besides that, the Olympian polytheistic Religion was not suited for an Empire. A monotheistic Religion was needed, in order for the Emperor to be the mirror-image of the One God. The era of the Dodekatheon was over... But not completely lost...
-Even today many many people in Greece do not have Christian names, but names of Olympian Gods. Aris (in latin:Mars, the God of War) is as common in Greece as is John in the US. Also, the most major Greek Christian fests (15.08, 25.12) are held in the dates of Olympian Gods' fests. There is even a Saint, called Saint Dionysus, protector of Judges and Justice....
-As a conclusion I could say that IMHO the persecution of the Old Religion was a political call, and so was the maintainance of the rest of the Greek/Hellenic culture. Of course it was a major change, but a culture is consisted from many other things besides Religion, and the two of them should not be confused. And besides that, a carefull eye can trace a lot of Olympian traditions in the Greek-Orthodox Church.

About Macedonia:
-Macedonia is a region in the Balkans, whose parts are possessed by Greece, FYROM and Bulgaria.
-Macedonia is also a famous salad, that contains everything, from tomatoes and eggs to various vegetables and spices. It is called "Macedonia", because it contains as many ingredients, as the nations that inhabit Macedonia. Greeks, Turks, Bulgars, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Hungarians....
-But the multi-nationality of Macedonia was the product of millenias of Imperial occupation of the region, from Alexander's Empire to the Ottoman Empire. Before that , the native people, including Alexander and his father Phillipe, were Greeks. They were speaking and reading greek, they were participating at the Olympics, they were worshiping the Dodekatheon, they were called "Greeks" by other nations.
-As long as I m concerned there is a well-calculated plan behind the denial of the greek identity of Alexander. I ve seen the official map of FYROM, it was even available online at their State Department's webpage, and it covers 1/3 of northern Greek soil and streches all the way to the Aegean sea. I ve heard the FYROMers speak about their "regions that are under greek occupation", about "the land of their ancestor,Alexander the Macedon, that is today under greek occupation" (sic). My answer to all these will be the same. If there is anyone else in this planet that can read the name Alexander and explain its significance in his mother language (Alexander is a greek name meaning more or less the Defender), Be My Guest .
I hope I covered your questions, feel more than welcome to post any other! ~;)

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Before that , the native people, including Alexander and his father Phillipe, were Greeks. They were speaking and reading greek, they were participating at the Olympics, they were worshiping the Dodekatheon, they were called "Greeks" by other nations.

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That is a bit of an overestimate, at least for the classical era. The Argead Kings sporadically asserted a claim of decent from The Argive royal house (more specifically from Herakles via the Temenidai) and thus a tie into the mythical lineages that were used to define the various Greek ethnic groups. Alexander I was the first Macedonian king too make such a claim (to Herodotus) and the last for a while. Phillip revived the claim, with good reason seeing as it helped to legitimize his aspirations for hegemony in Greece. Overall the claim seems to have won at least tacit acceptance with Greeks, but importantly for the Argead House, not for Macedonians in general. Phillip was allowed to participate in the Olympics and he seems to have been particularly perceived as Hellenizing at least the aristocracy in Macedonia (ala Isocrates).

By the same token, you can’t really call the claim universally accepted. There is the oft cited evidence from Demosthenes. The fate of Eumenes is also interesting, since it suggest that both sides the Macedonian gentry and the Greeks still perceived themselves as different.

Certainly by the later Hellenistic era, especially to Romans there is little distinction drawn between the 2 groups anymore.

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Originally Posted by conon394

That is a bit of an overestimate, at least for the classical era. The Argead Kings sporadically asserted a claim of decent from The Argive royal house (more specifically from Herakles via the Temenidai) and thus a tie into the mythical lineages that were used to define the various Greek ethnic groups. Alexander I was the first Macedonian king too make such a claim (to Herodotus) and the last for a while. Phillip revived the claim, with good reason seeing as it helped to legitimize his aspirations for hegemony in Greece. Overall the claim seems to have won at least tacit acceptance with Greeks, but importantly for the Argead House, not for Macedonians in general. Phillip was allowed to participate in the Olympics and he seems to have been particularly perceived as Hellenizing at least the aristocracy in Macedonia (ala Isocrates).

By the same token, you can’t really call the claim universally accepted. There is the oft cited evidence from Demosthenes. The fate of Eumenes is also interesting, since it suggest that both sides the Macedonian gentry and the Greeks still perceived themselves as different.

Certainly by the later Hellenistic era, especially to Romans there is little distinction drawn between the 2 groups anymore.

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@conon
Your knowledge of Greek mythology and history is truely amazing, my respects. :bow: But, IMHO you are missing the exact significance of certain facts.
-I think we agree that Greeks were more or less the result of the fusion between the Dorians and the Iones, along with minor groups like the aioleis and pelasgoi. But, the separating line between Dorians and Iones was at the time still visible. The greatest Dorian superhero was Heracles, brutally strong. On the opposite, the Ionian superhero was named Theseus, and he was always victorius thanks to his brains more than his strenght. The difference in mentality was also visible to architecture, with dorian rythme more cubic while Ionian more sofisticated.
-Dorian-descended cities rarely allied with Ionian-descended cities. And the most famous Ionian-descended city was Athens, Phillipe's one and only worthy enemy. So, Phillipe claimed to be descendant of Heracles not in order to persuade other Greeks about his "greekness", but in order to take the lead among the rest of the Dorians and moreover, throw the glove to Athens. Reading between the lines, Phillipe's declaration was saying: "The Dorians have a new champion; Athens, we are coming"
-The only actual reference that denies the hellenic origins of Phillipe is Demosthenes. But as I have already said, Demosthenes was a bittered politician, who was trying to shake Athens out of its decline and into the counter-attack. He still believed in his city-state and hated Phillipe. But his argument is so feeble that even himself didn't bother enough to support it. It is more of an insult rather than an actual argument.
-So, all we have is the word of an enemy politician, against solid evidence suggesting that Macedonia didn't develop any different culture than the other Greek regions. Sure they were "rednecks", sure they were not as developped as the southerners due to their dorian past, since in Macedonia the Dorian invasion faced little Ionian resistance, but saying they were "something else than Greeks" is IMHO a wrong conclusion.

I would like you to comment the last paragraph of my previous post. Thank you for a civilized debate! ~:)