1). Join with Model. The we close the gap and join our forces!~:cheers:
Printable View
1). Join with Model. The we close the gap and join our forces!~:cheers:
I do not want to go 1) although it seems 1) it is...
1) will leave us poorly defended on the Steppe
I would have liked 2) more.
deleted, sorry double post, tehnical problems...
deleted, triple post, sorry, tehnical glitch
number 1.Destroy the Steppe and you have won.:bow:
1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.
Only #1 seems like a good option. However, this seems suspiciously like a trap. The Russians know and they know clearly that the plan is to attack where option #1 will currently attack. I'll go with #1 for now.... I just pray that they don't suddenly counterattack with a dozen of their armies.
Well, it is indeed a pretty pickle we find ourselves in. It is as I feared - the forces sent to fight the Steppe were not strong enough for any more than a phyric victory. They got bogged down in a brutal battle of attrition which the Russians could afford, but we could not. We now have few intact divisions with which to do much of anything; Hoth's despair is understandable.
Now for my ignorant analysis of the remaining options, none of which are very enticing:
1. This seems to be the consensus, but alas, it invites disaster. The 5th GT Army has proven that, despite being defeated, it can still pose a significant threat. This option, which essentially ignores it and drives toward Kursk, will invite a counterattack that could threaten the whole operation.
2. This would be my choice. Das Reich and Totenkopf are probably our two strongest remaining divisions. They might not be enough to close the gap, but at least we don't leave Model alone to do the job (like option 3) or ignore the Steppe (like option 1). If most of the resistance to the north is already gone, which I believe it is, these two divisions should be enough.
3. With this option, the risk is significant that the Russians fleeing the bulge will block Model and escape. It's static, it gives up the initiative, and it's likely to make people like Guderian and Hitler angry, who must already be fed up with earlier delays that have proved so costly. It may be safe, but it has little chance of ultimate success.
4. With this option, the Russians in the bulge will almost certainly escape. This will mean the failure of the entire operation, even if the Steppe is destroyed. With our own forces badly mauled, we need to link up with Model - even if only with part of our forces. Why go on a wild chase after the remnants of the Steppe, when the true objective lies elsewhere? We need to focus on that objective, while making sure the Steppe doesn't come back to bite us in the rear.
So option 2 seems like the right one to me. It gives us a relatively strong chance of closing the gap, while minimizing the risk of a Russian counterattack. This may be our last chance to salvage a floundering operation. Unfortunately, due to earlier responses, that chance may already be lost...
But as you can see, the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe - only with insufficient forces to force a decisive outcome. Besides, our forces are better used in some kind of offensive blitzkrieg, not a static defense. This isn't a Total War game; waiting for the enemy to come to us won't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Option 1 doesn't destroy the Steppe; it ignores it. Option 4 pursues the Steppe to its destruction, but it doesn't complete the operation either. Our objective isn't to destroy the remnants of the defeated Steppe, but to close the bulge and trap large numbers of Russian forces inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
1) Now that you have defeated Rotmistrov and his 5th GT Army you can finally close the gap. Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front and pool them with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Then advance to the east of Kursk.
Kommodus.I dont know if i misread the option.But i think, i thought i was concentrating my forces against the "Steppe".And i also thought that the Steppe is the Russian reserve army group in the Central Russian front.Its the only active Russian armygroup in the area anymore.The rest have been beaten.The little i understand about operations in Srategig depth of the enemy is that you are there to destroy the enemy.There isnt really anything important in the sector besides The "Steppe".But i maybe also wrong.:bow:
Option 1 means an advance on the gap with most of the mobile units.
There are the about 800.000 Russians troops inside the bulge.
The Steppe Front is obviously not as strong as its historical counterpart (as with so much), but it is true that its formations are about the only operational formations left.
My understanding is that the "Steppe" refers to the 5th GT Army of the Steppe front. Perhaps you will recall reading, a few chapters ago, about our first encounter with this force, when the 3rd Panzer went on a reconaissance in force:Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
Therefore, option 1 withdraws forces from the front facing the "Steppe" and concentrates them elsewhere. I understand your confusion, but the option did say, "Pull all mobile forces from the line against the Steppe Front". It's clear that this does the opposite of what you were hoping for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Naturally I was hoping for a different course of action. The 5th GT Army may be defeated, but it's not destroyed yet and shouldn't be ignored.
Kommodus, we have to jobs to do: closing the gap and shatter the Steppe. None can wait. Our offensive divisions are not able to do both. So you have to eather split your mobile forces (~:confused: ) or you have to concentrate on one target and leave the other one to the defensive divisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
So I would suggest to close the gap with our remaining offensive forces and to build a defensive line against the Steppe. You say that this is not in line with Blitzkrieg. I doubt that. Blitz mean concentrate on the most important target. You know that Rommel used to do the same. Let the enemy attack your ATG position until its offensive potential is wasted. Our ATG and 8.8 Flak and Jagdpanzer will do the job. And the Luftwaffe can help.
If we close the gap, the Steppe has to attack and we know where and when. That is all we need to know to stop them.
It was a mistake to fight the Russian tank concentration face to face with our tanks.
I may not have been participating (mainly because I always am too late ~D ), but I have been following this with great interest and comparing my choices to those of the others. However, for the last three choices I seem to have misjudged the situation. I feel I am in need of a tactical update.
Which units (German and Russian) are were and how strong are they? ~:confused:
This is the situation as far as I can see:
Manstein's troops managed to brake through the lines. 'Das Reich' and 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler' had severe losses. So they were put behind the first lines. Model finally managed to break through, too. He had losses but his units seem to be intact.
Manstein managed to beat all big armored formation of the defensive line. The rest is threatend to be cut off and not able for a assive attack. They are about to flee. Biggest problem is the Steppe - the strategic reserve of the Soviets. We fought it in a big tank battle. We managed to push them back, but our losses are big. 3rd Panzerkorp and Kempf were hit hard and are no longer a strong tank formation.
So we have:
SS Totenkopf - still strong
SS - Reich - Weakened but recovered
SS Leibstandarte - Refilled and rested
The Soviets have:
The Steppe - we know we hit them hard. But in fact we still do not know if there are more Tank units in the Steppe and how strong they are now.
So the alternatives are:
1) Attack the Steppe and try to decide the battle here. Let Model do the job of closing the gap.
2) Hurry to Model, encircle big parts of the Russian armies. Stop the Steppe (if it is still able to attack) with infantry units. Then go back with the joined Manstein and Model tanks and give the Steppe the rest.
Very close...Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Das Reich is only slightly weakened at the moment. It was pulled back due to exhaustion more than losses.
LAH is certainly not refilled, it has been given the recovered T-34s as a stopgap meassure. It still lacks basically all other types of vehicles. It is hardly very mobile at the moment. It will not move along with the attack north.
Then there is Grossdeutchland, it was strong and ready but now it is severely weakened due to the massive tankbattle. Its infantry is still strong enough, but the tanks and other mobile forces are depleted.
11th Panzer, a good formation to start with is not as weakened as GD due to having been on the flanks, but it too lost a lot of its tanks, and it was already a bit weakened from losses and the fact that is was never brought up to strength.
Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is not dead, but it is close to it. Its losses were very heavy, and this time they will not just come back from the shops. The loss of its commander has also left it in a bit of confusion as his XO got killed early. The commander of the Panthers have taken over, but he is inexperienced in commanding large units outside the tactical field.
3rd Panzer was never a strong armoured formation, and now it is basically little more than a handful of tanks attached to some motorized infantry. It is still very mobile, but lacks the mailed fist.
3rd Panzer Corps is out for the count. It has suffered extremely heavy in terms of tanks and its infantry has suffered serious losses in the last push.
The 332nd is still combatready despite heavy losses early on. Given it's low rank it hasn't recieved any replacements or much other. All its mobile forces are lost.
The 167th is in a similar state, it lost its mobile components to the massive Russian airattack on the traficjam. Its infantry suffered heavy losses in the closing hours of the great tankbattle.
The 255th is still a strong infantrydivision. Its StuGs did suffer losses in that last push, but its infantry went in last and thus was spared the most horrific losses.
Ok, ok, obviously losses are getting heavy, and attrition is taking an enormous toll. Quickly try to reorganize our forces, forming a new grouping of whatever armored vehicles and motorized infantry we can scrape together, then smash what's left of the Russians while closing the gap as quickly as possible. I just pray that the Russians don't pull more reserves out from their asses in order to flank our forces. My fear is that the Steppe was just a ruse to deplete our forces before the actual Russian forces attack our lines. Use the infantry to defend the gap against any attacks, have them get ready to dig trench lines and plant a ton of mines so that the Russians can't attack at that point. Meanwhile, demand as many reinforcements as possible, the Kursk salient is a big place and the Russians can attack from any number of directions, including breaking out from behind in the western part of the salient.
You and I are talking about two different things. When I said "the chosen option did lead to an attack on the Steppe", I meant the previous decision, which precipitated the massive tank battle, not the decision we are faced with now. Back then, I was puzzled by your comment that you wanted to sack two fronts and let the Steppe attack us, when you had voted for an option that called for an attack on the Steppe and the 31st at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconicus
Now, of course, the situation is different, and of course you are right - we do have two jobs, just as you said, and our offensive divisions certainly can't do both. What you and I want is in fact very similar - we both want to help Model close the gap, while guarding against the Steppe. The only difference is this:
1. You want to pull all mobile forces away from the Steppe front and let the infantry and artillery hold off the Russians in case of a counterattack. This might be the right decision, but I'm simply concerned that it won't be enough to stop them. The Russians still have a number of tanks left; do we really want to face them with no tanks of our own? I would rather leave some tanks behind to keep that front relatively strong.
2. I want to use two of our armoured divisions (Das Reich and Totenkopf) to close the gap, leaving the forces on the Steppe front where they are. As Kraxis pointed out, they are our strongest remaining armoured divisions. Those on the Steppe front are severely weakened, and I doubt they'd provide much additional offensive impetus anyway. They are all badly mauled and could not be expected to do much on the offensive for some time. That's why I say, let them rest, hold tight, and aid in defense.
In answer to the contention that Das Reich and Totenkopf will not be enough to close the gap - of course this is true. But they won't be alone; they'll simply be aiding Model. It's better than leaving the entire job up to him.
I suppose enough people have voted, and the decision is already made. My dear Franconicus, we will soon find out if you are right or if the battle is lost. :-)
Yes! Let the battle begin ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommodus
Thanks Franconicus and Kraxis. I still have trouble grasping the situation, but that is probably my own fault for reading just after the lectures. :book: :dizzy2:
Ludens, do not worry! Being confused is the natural state during battle. I doubt that most commanders really know what their armies are doing during battle. ~;)
Although most of our troops are exhausted and we lost most of our tanks there is no reason to be sad. What the hell did we expect. Most important thing is that the enemy is in an even worse condition. Two fronts are broken and actually out of business. Steppe is hit hard. I do not expect them to just have been as strong as one of the two other fronts. And I think we destroyed almost all their tanks. (Well, at least I hope so). Model is still very strong and Manstein should be able to deal with Steppe too. So what we have to do is make our victory a total one. :charge: Close the gap, arrest the forces in there, shatter the rest of the Steppe when they try in vain to break through and then march to the Don and built a new defensive line there.
There were some questions about the goals of this operation. Let me summarize my view – although I guess most of this is obvious.
Hitler’s vision was to conquer the USSR, to erase communism and to kill or enslave the Russian population. He recognized that he could not do this without fighting France. To avoid a war on two fronts he wanted to fight France first. However, he believed to get a gentlemen’s agreement with GB. His first steps should be the reunion of all Germans and the creation of a strong army and the control of central Europe. All these thoughts were done in the 20ies.
1939 - Attacking Poland was his last step to get ready for war. Hitler’s plans were always a win or loose strategy. Due to the performance of the German army and the hesitating French and English he won this war.
1940 – Next on his list was France. Again his campaign was an outstanding success. However, he did not know what to do with GB. He was not prepared and he did not really want to conquer Britain. GB did not want to make peace – so Hitler was forced to change his plans. The new strategy was to attack the USSR within some weeks and then attack GB. With the bigger industry and the back secured the Germans would create a bigger air force and a big submarine force.
1941 – After big successes the German attack was stopped before Moscow. So the German strategy of a short war against Russia failed. GB was getting stronger and the US coming closer to war. Hitler’s strategy had failed. There was no alternative plan how to win the war.
1942 – After losses in winter the Germans tried to beat the Russians this summer. They managed to surprise the Russians by attack on the south front. After successes they had the disaster of Stalingrad. It was clear that a victory in Russia was still far.
1943 – The situation was very critical for the Germans. The Turks made the final decision not to join the war against Russia. German allies thought how they could end the engagement. The USA appeared in Africa and in the sky.
Germany had 159 more or less exhausted divisions at the eastern front. The USSR had 400. So it was impossible to come to a final victory this year. But Hitler needed to have a victory for political reasons.
So the goals of Zitadelle were:
- an impressive military victory to impress other nations
- to take as many Russian units out of the game as possible to avoid a Soviet attack this summer and to release some divisions for the western theatre.
- to gain a good defensive position
The Russians tried to use the same strategy as they did at Moscow and Stalingrad. Start with defensive until the German tank forces are exhausted, then start a big counterattack.
Look, the decision is already made. The gap will be closed.... And I fear that it might be impossible to hold. Not with 800,000 desperate Russian soldiers in that pocket and the fact that the Russians will rush as many troops to the Kursk region as possible in order to break the Russians out of the pocket. The pincer at the neck is the anvil, but we lack the hammer.
Kraxis,
what is going on at the front? Is the battle over? Did we win?
I'm not too sure you need to worry too much about the russian's inside trying to break out, depending on the strenght of their mobile forces. Russians outside trying to relieve them is another matter. Kraxis, what is the strength of the Russian armor inside the pocket to be and outside for that matter?
And we all love you Kraxis!
I think why Kraxis have not anawered is that we won the battle in Strategig wiew first time,in his interactitie history,but none of s would like to win in real life .:bow:
Nah... We are dealing with von Manstein, an honourable man (though not perfect). And by limiting it to him we are free... Or at least that is how I think about it.
I will post the next chapter tomorrow.
Thanks m8!~:)
:cheerleader: :dancing: :dancinglock: :knuddel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
And we all love you Kraxis!
That is true!
A Full Bag or What?
Looking at the map, then over at the lethargic Hoth, then back again you realize you need to finish this now and here. This kind of figthing will just drain you too fast.
The Russians are being counted out as it seems, but they might get onto their feet again. But you argue with yourself that you can't afford to not risk this.
You move the markers for GD, 11th and 3rd Panzers out of the line and towards the north to join up with Das Reich and Totenkopf. Kampfgruppe Heidekamp is too weak to move and LAH is too immobile, while 3rd Panzer Corps is depleted. To cover the gap in the line you drag the infantry divisions out a bit, ending with the strongest, 255th at the north shoulder, while 3rd Panzer Corps still controls the southern shoulder and LAH is in the ceter with Kampfgrupper Heidekamp in local reserve.
You smile at this. A strong line, made out of weak units, that is always something to be proud of.
You turn to Hoth and gives him his instructions to gather the mobile forces for the drive north. His usual lively reaction does not appear, but at least he looks less gloomy.
During the night GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer files north while the remaining units begin to cover their areas. Due to them being positoned close to each other with no units between them the moveout is smooth and fast. You are not even certain that the Russians know you have repositioned your troops.
When dawn breaks Totenkopf and Das Reich leads the attack, and this time there will no stopping them, they will drive through the night if need be.
Model advances south at a good pace, though he is dogged with fighting retreating Russian columns, but their lack of tanks and ready guns leave them easy prey for the tanks of his Army.
Your own tanks advance fast, brushing aside the light units opposing them, generally recon units in armoured cars, but also cavalry and AA units. The Russian airforces attack them in furious attacks but now that the fighting south have halted your own airforces cover the attacks and the airwar turns intense like nothing before. The Russians know they need to halt the attack while your men know they need to keep it free. The concentration of forces lead to one of the greatest airbattles on the frontlines. More than 1000 German planes defend the attacking columns from more than 1600 Russian planes. The sky is filled with black spots swirling, burning and crashing.
While many attacks make it through the cover they are met by determined AA, and their individual status makes it hard for them to make proper attackruns. At one point the Russians finally seem to get the upper hand and more planes manage to get through, but fate would have it that Model ordered that his own cover to fly south and help out. They arrive just in time to stem the tide until planes returning from rearming and refueling can take over again.
You follow the deadly dogfights with great interest. This is the decisive moment, you can't keep out of it.
Suddenly, just as the assault is getting near to the outskirts of Kursk, around 2 o'clock, reports from the infantry line come in. They are under heavy attacks, infantry, tanks everything you can imagine being used are thrown at them. The attacks are made over a broad front, covering your entire line. Artillerybarrages bombard the entire line, taking the local commanders by surprise. The buildup to the attack had gone unnoticed due to the attentions being fixed on the north.
For hours the attacks keep rolling in. Hundreds of tanks and many thousands of infantry attack headlong at your positions. The entire line is under heavy pressure, but it is holding... Just barely, especially LAH is getting a hammering, but is dishing out serious damage itself and has conseeded not a single position.
You want to pull back some forces to stem the tide, but the lure of Kursk is within your grasp now, and your own attackers have now too met retreating columns of Russian infantry and artillery. While they can afford much resistance it is clear that the Russians are getting well underway to clear out the bulge.
By nighttime your forces have been spread out quite significantly, the northern attack is now a good distance from the fighting down south, while the gap between them and Model's spearheads is a mere 5km, including the vital Kursk railroad, which has been confirmed to be greatly used by now.
What to do?
1a) Your sourthern line is doing well, very well in fact. They can hold on. The Russians are obviously throwing everything at them, and have not managed to break through, so the worst should be over by now.
1b) The same but order a general advance along the entire bulge. This should catch the Russians with their pants down and perhaps cause a collapse, or at least a weakening of the retreating formations. But their positions are still strong.
2) Pull back Das Reich and Totenkopf and hit the attacks in their flanks. They should easily roll up the entire Front. But their punch will be lost when the gap is finally closed. Perhaps Russian forces might escape.
3) Pull back GD, 11th and 3rd Panzer and put them into the line where needed. They are not strong enough for offensive actions against an entire Front. The same problem as in 2 might arise, but this time more pronounce since these forces are more numerous than Das Reich and Totenkopf. But they are less mobile and could perhaps not be able to respond to breakthroughs in the same manner.
1a) even though I am not sure what the order is. I assume it is: go on like planed! ALEA JACTA EST. Let's finish what we started.