Riots in France?

Well for all your knowledge you seem to be lacking perspective and the ability to apply it. It is not an outrage at all to use history to gain insight. It is arrogance to make an assumption that there is nothing to learn.

The rioters in general are the peasants... they are a means to the ends.

The ends of whom? Right wing politicians check. Extremists Check.

For the extremists the politicians in power are the equivalent of the aristocracy. They are using the rioters to enact the change they want. Now it maybe that all the extremists will demand is removal of headscarf bans, more political power, more autonomy in their districts. They will use the riots and rioters as leverage to get their change.

Some of the more hubris visioned extremists actually believe they can go all the way with a revolution.

For the right wing politicians it is a perfect reason for them to get more power by enacting political change in their favour. I'm sure some of them would like to use grape shot and a cavalry charge to clamp down on the riots... edit a more recent example would be the power gain that the Nazis got when the parliament got burned down... Anarchy plays into the hands of the right.

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.

Speaking to a French student, he seemed extremely worried that this could all spiral out of control. In his view it was the results of lots of unemployed, poorly educated, young men (white or black) who were further antagonised by inept politicians insulting them and threatening them with the army.

Said he'd move to England if it got more out of hand... So he must be really worried lol.

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Originally Posted by BDC

Speaking to a French student, he seemed extremely worried that this could all spiral out of control. In his view it was the results of lots of unemployed, poorly educated, young men (white or black) who were further antagonised by inept politicians insulting them and threatening them with the army.

Said he'd move to England if it got more out of hand... So he must be really worried lol.

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Thats what I'm talking about.~:)

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.

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One could argue that it is the left and moderates fault that things have gotten this bad.~;)

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

The ends of whom? Right wing politicians check. Extremists Check.

For the extremists the politicians in power are the equivalent of the aristocracy. They are using the rioters to enact the change they want. Now it maybe that all the extremists will demand is removal of headscarf bans, more political power, more autonomy in their districts. They will use the riots and rioters as leverage to get their change.

Some of the more hubris visioned extremists actually believe they can go all the way with a revolution.

For the right wing politicians it is a perfect reason for them to get more power by enacting political change in their favour. I'm sure some of them would like to use grape shot and a cavalry charge to clamp down on the riots... edit a more recent example would be the power gain that the Nazis got when the parliament got burned down... Anarchy plays into the hands of the right.

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.

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Once again you're right sir. I'm seriously worried about the effect of these events onto our next presidential election. Another Right vs Extreme Right 2nd turn would really stinks.

Is one of the reasons France was so against the war in the middle east because it/France wanted to be extra sensitive to the Arabs in France?:bow:

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Originally Posted by Radier

Some two minutes in the movie you can hear some rioters in France scream "Allah Akhbar!". There are muslim extremists out there...

Those who say Islam has nothing to do with the riots are wrong.

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It sounds to me like these kids like to think they’re Palestinian freedom fighters.


If they truly are Islamic extremists shouldn’t they have respected the Ramadan?

I don't know why our President was against the war, though I'd guess it was because that's part of his official policy to appear as a friend of the arab world.
France as a whole was rather against it because it was based of falsy claims, and had no link with the war on terrorism.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

For the extremists the politicians in power are the equivalent of the aristocracy. They are using the rioters to enact the change they want. Now it maybe that all the extremists will demand is removal of headscarf bans, more political power, more autonomy in their districts. They will use the riots and rioters as leverage to get their change.

Some of the more hubris visioned extremists actually believe they can go all the way with a revolution.

For the right wing politicians it is a perfect reason for them to get more power by enacting political change in their favour. I'm sure some of them would like to use grape shot and a cavalry charge to clamp down on the riots... edit a more recent example would be the power gain that the Nazis got when the parliament got burned down... Anarchy plays into the hands of the right.

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.

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True.

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The ends of whom? Right wing politicians check. Extremists Check.

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As I said, the rioters are partly manipulated by extremists and drug dealers. As for the right wing politicans, they will undoubtedly use the situation to their advantage but it is yet to be proved they're, directly or indirectly, involved in the riots.

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Well for all your knowledge you seem to be lacking perspective and the ability to apply it. It is not an outrage at all to use history to gain insight. It is arrogance to make an assumption that there is nothing to learn.

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Hmmm, good thought. By the way, I'm sure the millions of French who died during this period would really appreciate that one draws parallels between their claims and what they fought and died for and what these decadent thugs demand.

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The rioters in general are the peasants... they are a means to the ends.

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I'm sorry but I cannot see it that way. While I understand parallels are important, there must be at least some similarities between the situations to back them up, otherwise they're pointless.

On a side note, I apologise for being too vehement in my last post and hope you haven't taken offense, Papewaoi.

Do not confuse extremists' movements such as FLN / ALN and the Arabs that were "slaughtered" during these events.

Why not ? De Gaulle did , Papon did , the police did .
The harrasment covered all of them , the curfew covered all of them , regardless of if they had anything to do with the FLN . They were all classed the same .
Just like that idiot of an interior minister has done now .

Is one of the reasons France was so against the war in the middle east because it/France wanted to be extra sensitive to the Arabs in France?
Yeah it was the same with the Russians , Chinese , Germans .~:joker:
France as a whole was rather against it because it was based of falsy claims, and had no link with the war on terrorism:bow:

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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

It sounds to me like these kids like to think they’re Palestinian freedom fighters.


If they truly are Islamic extremists shouldn’t they have respected the Ramadan?

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No... According to you, muslim extremists do not respect the Qur'an, right? Why then would they respect Ramadan?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Do not confuse extremists' movements such as FLN / ALN and the Arabs that were "slaughtered" during these events.

Why not ? De Gaulle did , Papon did , the police did .
The harrasment covered all of them , the curfew covered all of them , regardless of if they had anything to do with the FLN . They were all classed the same.

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Exactly why it is important not to make the same mistake ~;)

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Just like that idiot of an interior minister has done now.

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You must know by now that "competence" isn't the French ministers' watchword ~D Seriously, that's alarming the way he's taking more and more liberties just to gain popularity among the masses. He's going to literally suck Le Pen's electoral core before the presidential elections.

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Originally Posted by Radier

No... According to you, muslim extremists do not respect the Qur'an, right? Why then would they respect Ramadan?

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Du har inga bra NS- eller SD-länkar att bjuda på?

Jag fick en sån känsla bara..:hide:

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Originally Posted by Ldvs

I'm sorry but I cannot see it that way. While I understand parallels are important, there must be at least some similarities between the situations to back them up, otherwise they're pointless.

On a side note, I apologise for being too vehement in my last post and hope you haven't taken offense, Papewaoi.

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The parallels are in the manipulation not in the validity in what they are fighting for. The rioters are being used like the peasants were. I don't think the peasants had any more say in which side the ultimately fought for other then who had the most local influence. The peasants had a bad lot and a group promised them something better... same with the Nazi brown shirts.

Same thing here. The local influence has been lost from the government and the police to the extremists. The rioters on the whole are pawns for a powerplay just like the peasants were. The extremists will either go for a political concessions or local community influence.

To win you don't bother going for the body you go for the head. But you have to figure out who is getting the most benefit.

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Du har inga bra NS- eller SD-länkar att bjuda på?

Jag fick en sån känsla bara..:hide:

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ND är svin, men Sverigedemokrat är jag. Har du något problem med det eller står du för demokrati? ~;)

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

The rioters are being used like the peasants were.

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Not exactly, since the manipulation was explicit during the Revolution. Now, perhaps you'll be proven right in the near future if it becomes explicit, too.

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The parallels are in the manipulation not in the validity in what they are fighting for.

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I guess we have very different conceptions of what is required to draw parallels. I see your point, although I still believe taking the French Revolution as example is not relevant here.

You must know by now that "competence" isn't the French ministers' watchword
Yep , from the moment those two youths got electrocuted he hasn't done a thing right , everytime he says anything on the subject he is just pouring petrol on the flames .
Whats his latest version of the tear-gassing of the mosque , a car was causing an obstruction ?????
Still I suppose thats better than "it didn't happen" or "it wasn't the police" .
Anyway they are all burglars and scum aren't they ~:confused:

What a muppet .Sack him , oh but thats what all the graffiti is saying isn't it .

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Originally Posted by Ldvs

I guess we have very different conceptions of what is required to draw parallels. I see your point, although I still believe taking the French Revolution as example is not relevant here.

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Well, when a cake is promised and failed to be delivered the customer gets irate.

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Wtf man ? Do you know what these people are saying ? What they're doing ? They set fire to an old woman, they finally achieved to kill someone today. They are firing on firemen, on cops.
Do you want me to copy/paste their speech ?

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I don't recall writing that this riot is a model of how revolutionary violence should be. No, these people are enraged. They may be merely organised but most of their violence is blind. They destroy things, not just symbols of their oppression but anything that they find in front of them in order to provoke and show that they are not kidding. They expect to receive the respect that is owed to every human being. Instead, they are treated as scum for ages now. All their dignity has been violently removed from them in a slow and constant procedure dating many years back in time. Most of them bend their heads and continue to work in, mostly, hard and underpaid jobs. But few can no more put up with it. Being very young, often "under-age", only adds to the ferociousness of their actions, which, like in the case of burning the old lady, are pointlessly cruel and dumb.
But please don't give any metaphysical explanations of the sort: "they are evil", "they are scum", "the only solution is shooting them". People are not born violent, they are made so. These guys are out to show they deserve some respect. They have been ignored for too long and want to draw some attention at last.

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We offered them Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité. They refused the offer, and now, they are spitting on these values. They seriously ought to be punished, and in the harshest way.

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Ha ha ha...that's so funny i can hardly comment on it. When exactly was it that you offered them those things? When were they free, when were they treated as equals or as brothers and sisters? You don't even have these things yourselves (the "regular" french) and neither does any other person living in any country, including the so-called "western democracies".

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Frankly, that's because you're either a naive hippie, or because you're the bourgeois you're describing in your post, and thus never met this kind of people. They have been a pain in the ass of every single frenchman - white, black, arab, asian - for decades. Right now, why do you think arabs and blacks have a bad reputation ? Just for the fact they're black or brown ? Of course not, but I'll give you a hint, that's because we always hear of these arab and black scums from suburbs, who respect nothing and no-one, who will kill someone because he doesn't live in 'their' city, because he doesn't look enough gang-ish, or because he simply did not respect them (yet, they show absolutely no respect for anything, except their own miserable lifes of illiterate little gangsters). And things will get only worse with these riots.
Just for your information, I don't think I'm a nationalistic right winger nutjob, and I don't think either Ldvs or Louis VI are nationalistic nutjobs. I'd rather consider myself as a socialist. Believe it or not, but I probably have more arab friends than you. Using buzzwords like that won't bring you anywhere.

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I'm not a hippie and i guess i'm not that naive either. I know how many fascists there are around and i was sure there were plenty in here but i expected to see a few more liberals and "leftish" people making some noise. Unfortunately, there are only a few exceptions.
Since you want to turn this personal, i can tell you that my family is indeed a burgeois one but i'm not exactly the son they wished for. And you know, there are immigrants in Greece too. They are not a few. They are about 10%-15% of the entire population. They may not be north-africans but they are Albanians, Romanians, Kurds, Afghans and a lot more.
Therefore, i have seen them and met them. I know that some of them turn to criminal life but that's a (wrong) way that some of them choose to escape from the hardships of poverty and achieve some welfare status. In my opinion, they should instead try to overthrow the state.

By the way, it's interesting that you consider yourself a socialist, rather than a "right-winger nutjob". The term "fascists" was, anyway, not appointed directly to you. However, the only "socialists" i can recall proposing totalitarian "kill'em all" solutions were in the ex-Soviet Union, and to me the Soviet Union was a fascist state with a communist facade.

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ROFL, man. Get it on. Do you actually even know what they're doing ? They aren't attacking wealthy people, bourgois or big company bosses. They're burning cars of people who are as poor as them. They're just shooting randomly in the street of their own cities.

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I already commented on the "blind" character of their violence earlier in the thread.

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Okay, now, although one of the main problem is the fact that many non-white french are unemployed, you're saying they (immigrants) are harshly used by the 'evil forces of capitalism'. Well, my parents are also used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism and by a society that main aim is mass consummation. Guess what, I'll likely be used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism too. Low class white workers aren't rioting because they have underpaid. Furthermore, more than half of the rioters are not even 18, never tried to study, never tried to work and will likely never ever try seriously to get a job.

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You are using the word "evil" in order to make a mockery of my attack against the capitalist system, making it sound as if it's a religious and irrational hatred or something. I never used the term "evil" refering to capitalism and i never use it anyway as i feel that the unescapeable relativity of "good" and "evil" does not allow me any easy judging on what is "right" and what is "wrong". My dislike of the capitalist system is a product of my knowledge of it's eroding and destructive effects to human relationships, to our ralationship with nature and to the planet itself. Now, if you people choose not to see this, it's your choice i'm afraid.
Regarding low-class white workers, they should be rioting too, in my opinion, as they have done so many times in the past. The reason they don't do it is that they are somewhat better off than they were in the past and they are much more integrated into the system now, than they were in the past.

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Yeah sure, I should feel responsible if these guys are too stupid to even try to find a job. I should feel responsible when they set fire at this old woman. And sure, the average Joe (or rather, the average Dupond) should feel responsible aswell. I mean, my parents would never have achieved to buy this house without the 2 black slaves they're holding in my cave. Oh wait, I'm going to ask my tunisian slave to do my homework and to study for me, I don't really feel like getting my fingers out of my *** today.

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~:) You're being funny again! Well, you see, there is a thing called "wage-slavery" and it is a very real and existent thing. People may not carry chains and live in a cave, at least in the western world, but their slavery is mostly a mental one.

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If you don't have better arguments than some outdated marxist theories, I guess I'll be having some serious problem arguing with you.

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This isn't exactly marxist theories, you know. Pure ideology is an enemy, you know. The practice of all that liberates us is what really matters. And all this is hardly outdated when capitalism is turning everything that has a meaning into a product.

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You are always as an adult responsible for your actions. To do else wise is to be a slave to society.

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Aren't we?

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Originally Posted by biguth dickuth

I don't recall writing that this riot is a model of how revolutionary violence should be. No, these people are enraged. They may be merely organised but most of their violence is blind. They destroy things, not just symbols of their oppression but anything that they find in front of them in order to provoke and show that they are not kidding. They expect to receive the respect that is owed to every human being. Instead, they are treated as scum for ages now. All their dignity has been violently removed from them in a slow and constant procedure dating many years back in time. Most of them bend their heads and continue to work in, mostly, hard and underpaid jobs. But few can no more put up with it. Being very young, often "under-age", only adds to the ferociousness of their actions, which, like in the case of burning the old lady, are pointlessly cruel and dumb.
But please don't give any metaphysical explanations of the sort: "they are evil", "they are scum", "the only solution is shooting them". People are not born violent, they are made so. These guys are out to show they deserve some respect. They have been ignored for too long and want to draw some attention at last.

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I thought the same as you, is good to see that that old greek democracy, at least in the idea, has not been lost up there. The real question is, getting out of topic a little, is society static or dinamic? I should say to those that think that society has to be stable for all eternity, wheter it's on it's accidents on it's very model (politic and economic), that the society will change over and over, in the same way that a paradigm, in any science, falls to give place to another. Not all was setted with the french revolution, but that spirit is not to be lost. When things are wrong again, at a huge social level, like this one (unaboidable consecuence of capitalism), it's time to change it all again, make a revolution. It might be dumb, but not human being should be forced to support that kind of life. Here people are so alienated, desperated and to this point so ignorant, that they don't even move, they accept the life that they received, in some godly way, and die miserably, it sounds strong but it's that way. Should we wait anymore time doing statistics and extending our tired social plans to people that can even use it? The answer is no.

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Ha ha ha...that's so funny i can hardly comment on it. When exactly was it that you offered them those things? When were they free, when were they treated as equals or as brothers and sisters? You don't even have these things yourselves (the "regular" french) and neither does any other person living in any country, including the so-called "western democracies".

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Well as you know the old frase was always meant to be a fiction created over the reality. The law should act as a charade while the real owners behind conserve their power.

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By the way, it's interesting that you consider yourself a socialist, rather than a "right-winger nutjob". The term "fascists" was, anyway, not appointed directly to you. However, the only "socialists" i can recall proposing totalitarian "kill'em all" solutions were in the ex-Soviet Union, and to me the Soviet Union was a fascist state with a communist facade.

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Sorry man but as I recall the Stalinist movement threw down all clasistic differences, fascism wants to do exactly the contrary. Of course they didn't implemented communism as it should be, but that's another question.

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Regarding low-class white workers, they should be rioting too, in my opinion, as they have done so many times in the past. The reason they don't do it is that they are somewhat better off than they were in the past and they are much more integrated into the system now, than they were in the past.

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The feared middle class?~;)

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You're being funny again! Well, you see, there is a thing called "wage-slavery" and it is a very real and existent thing. People may not carry chains and live in a cave, at least in the western world, but their slavery is mostly a mental one.

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Yes the fiction.

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This isn't exactly marxist theories, you know. Pure ideology is an enemy, you know. The practice of all that liberates us is what really matters. And all this is hardly outdated when capitalism is turning everything that has a meaning into a product.

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Oh but this final part is surely marxist. I'm with you here, like that materialism. But in any case I said that I'll be out of this thread, then I saw your comment, I just wanted to comment on it, but I'm out again.~:cheers:

I think the discussion has to be divided in to two parts.

1. What to do with the rioters ?
Order have to be achieved at any cost. Even if it means force. A society, democratic or not, can not allow anarchy and disorder.

2. What is the cause of the riots and who to we avoid it in the future?
This question has the opposite answer to number one. People's needs and expectations needs to be managed. Promises have to be kept. People need to be able to provide for themselves and keep their human dignity. This can not be done fast or with force.

The problem is that many bundle both question together and that will in both cases create a catastrophy......

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Originally Posted by Radier

ND är svin, men Sverigedemokrat är jag. Har du något problem med det eller står du för demokrati? ~;)

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Demokratin suger hårt som den ser ut idag, men istället för en vidare splittring av samhället som många nationalister sysslar med idag behövs mer konstruktiva och positiva röster. Det kan se ut som tomma ord, men jag menar det ~;)

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Originally Posted by bmolsson

2. What is the cause of the riots and who to we avoid it in the future?

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The cause As is claimed to be, (or atleast my understanding of it)

Is the Goverment Trying to be Less racist,
They do not register muslims and black people as A different race.
Now That sounds like a good idea.

but because of it they Dont asks questions like, What religion are you and which race are you exetera when You apply for work,

So when the goverment looks at its employment figures They look good,
But unfortunately Most of the Muslims and people of different races are Without employment,

But the goverment cant see this as they have no record of it,

Also It has been claimed That the police Are prejudice and Stop people of ethnic minorities More often than Any 1 els,

recently this caused two young males to flee from the authorities, and unfortunately they ran in to a power station and died,

I belive that was the straw that broke the camels back,
and began these riots,

I sympathize with the Rioters but unfortunately, their ends do not justify the means,
(something I should know all about)
And could possibly make things worse for the minorities Than they already are.

Please feel free to correct me on any or all of the things i have said,
As this is only my interpretation of the situation, and what i have been able to pice together from the media " who I do not trust any way"

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

Yay ignorance, they're not Arabs they're from Africa (mostly North).

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North Africa are Arabs.

Can someone be ignorant towards his own race? ~:confused:

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Originally Posted by faisal

North Africa are Arabs.

Can someone be ignorant towards his own race? ~:confused:

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Kabyle may see it differently...

Louis,

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Looks like France is but one of the first to fall prey to political correctness as national policy. Let's hope other nations take it as a lesson.

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It's funny... Of all countries, if there is one that would be a US conservative dreams in terms of PC or affirmative action, it's France.

No such thing here :)

Tough to blame affirmative actions or PC for a situation in a country where they are not present...

Louis,

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

Is one of the reasons France was so against the war in the middle east because it/France wanted to be extra sensitive to the Arabs in France?:bow:

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Delicious irony served on a very cold plate.

The German news magazine "Der Spiegel" (my favourite one as some might have noticed ~;) ) has an interesting article on the riots in France in this week's issue, that is also published on their website in an English translation:

What's wrong with Europe?

Very good article. But as usual, it does not really give a solution (not that it is supposed to).

FYI, the autorities are now allowed to set up blackout if needed, and some mayors are asking for help from the army. That's a first step toward stopping the riots, but that won't solve the problems. There will still be violence in these suburbs, there will be even more racism toward migrants than before, and the gap between 'them' and 'the French' will be even bigger, radical islam influence will grow even more and in the end, we're screwed.

“What is the cause of the riots and who to we avoid it in the future”:
The causes are various.
But before to start, I want to say that, each time I go back to France my friends and family tell me the exasperation of the low middle classes.
This government cancelled all subsidies to youth organisations, destroyed the welfare system, and cancelled taxes for the rich, sell all the French national Companies paid by the money of the French tax payers (SNCF, EDF, GDF etc) to his friends, ignored the will of the electors and has the deep disdain for the French in general… They dismantle all the police of proximity, fired the Social Workers, put these area in complete mess and they fainted to be surprised.
Now, the explanations given in the British media aren’t accurate. The riots aren’t racially motivated; it is not the Whites against the rest (not like in UK today, Blacks against Islamists) but youngsters against police…
It isn’t religious; no mosques destroyed even if some Churches did. Which I do not care, more useful building could be build, or parking spots…
It is a classic example of social and economical riot, a Jacquerie more than 1989.

I do not sympathise with the rioters… They burn their neighbours’ cars, not the one of the ministers, and avoid carefully damaging the drugs dealers’ Mercedes…:boxing: :boxing: