Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations II

Very well.

My proposals:

Motion #8.06: A new Legion, Legio VI, shall be raised and deployed to Iberian immediately if Motion 8.07 is passed. Otherwise, it shall be deployed in Achaea, again immediately after it is raised, to reinforce the lands taken from the Greeks (and Macedonians, should we go to war with them).

Motion #8.07: The growing threat of the Iberian peoples will be halted, by a military strike into the heartlands of Iberia, and the deployment of at least two Legions at full strength with the intention of the annexation of the entire Iberian peninsula. This will take place immediately after the raising of Legio VI, should Motion 8.06 be passed. NOTE: this motion authorises war on the Iberians, and will most likely result in the withdrawal of one Legion to reinforce any free Legions that will be deployed in Iberia.

Senator Decivs Laevinivs,

I will second Motion 8.6 and Motion 8.7, but I do expect you to back my Motion 8.4 in return for this favour.

Senate Speaker, Motion 8.4 of course also authorises war on the Iberians, and I will change it myself right now.

Perhpas, senator Aemilius, if you reword it slightly? We currently do not have enough troops to hold Epirus, Sicily and Italia while sending troops simeltaneously into Iberia and Gaul, at least not enough to ensure success. Perhaps you could state that this would take place after the annexation of Iberia?

Senators, it gives me great pleasure to express my hearty approval for the manner in which Consul Coruncanius has conducted his term thus far. Though there was no legislation requiring it, he has maintained the policy of heavy infrastructure investment that I began. While he oversees our campaigns against the Greeks, we continue to grow strong and profitable at home. Furthermore, though our income has dropped as expected due to the requirements of the current war, it is with pleasure that I note that our seasonal income is still nearly 10,000 dinarii. Consul Coruncanius is not stripping the wealth of Rome for this war, he is building our power with wise and intelligent decisions.

Yet, I would like to see such a continued level of domestic concern become a permanent fixture of every Consul. Though I do not doubt the intentions or abilities of Consul Coruncanius, I have less faith in the men who will follow him, simply because I know not who they are. It is towards these future Consuls that I would like to propose the following Constitutional Amendment:

Motion 8.8: Seasonal income must be above 10,000 dinarii at the end of every Consulship. This Motion does not effect spending or income levels during the term of any Consulship. Exceptions to this Motion can be temporarily made by Senatorial legislation. (Note: This is a Constitutional Amendment)

For all of this, it is with great concern that I note foreign developments. For every enemy we slay, it seems that two rise in his place. Before I go on, I would like to direct the Senate's attention to the current World Overview Map, which I have brought with me from the Library for convenience.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b...ow/263_map.jpg

Beyond the developments in the Balkans, there are two major developments that concern us. First, the Iberians have engulfed much of the Germanic territories and they march on, nearly unopposed. It shall not be long before they control all of Germania. Second, Carthage has taken Capsa and broken the back of the Numidian king. Soon, they will spread over all of Afrika and their power will grow significantly.

Senators, we ignore these threats at our peril! I saw the danger of Iberia and proposed dealing with it immediately only 5 years ago! If we had marched then, we would not be in this precarious situation! It makes me glad to see that Senator Lucius Aemilius has realized the error of his ways five years ago and now recognizes the true threat that the Iberians pose to us. I fully agree with him that we cannot wait any longer. We must strike the Iberians before their power grows even further. Yet, I agree with Senator Decius Laevinus that the Gallic provinces are useless to us.

As I stated five years ago, the Iberian coastal provinces, many of them former Punic settlements, are wealthy from trade and centers of military production. If we were to take these provinces, we would strike a great blow to the power of Iberia and strengthen ourselves immeasurably. While Motion 8.7 is aimed at the same ends, I believe it to be too strict in determining the manner of this strike and it's immediate aims are too broad. Thus, I propose the following motion.

Motion 8.9: An expedition must be made to capture some of the Iberian northeastern and coastal settlements. The manner and method by which this expedition is to be made (i.e. naval or land route, which armies to send) will be left up the Consul. The objective will be to capture and hold at least two of the following settlements: Narbo, Emporaie, Osca, Numantia, Arse, Carthago Nova, Gades. This motion requires a declaration of war against Iberia.

For this expedition, I certainly believe that Senator Lucius Aemilius would be an appropriate commander. At the same time, I would far prefer to be fighting the enemies of all civilized men than to continue in my duties against the Greeks. My Tribune, Amulius Corncanius, is an incredibly capable man and I firmly believe that he would be able to lead Consular I Army as well as I could. If such an expedition is to be made and two commanders are needed for it, I would like to request that I be transferred west. At minimum, I would prefer to take up the Massilia crossing in Senator Lucius Aemilius' absense. I consider it a sacred duty to protect civilization from barbaric animals, wherever they may be.

In closing, I urge the Senate to think of the future. Iberia must be stopped before they grow stronger. We must strike them and we must strike them now.


I would also like to second Motion 8.1, Motion 8.2, and Motion 8.6.

I would like to second both Motions #8.08 and 8.09.

I am greatly pleased by the confidence of Augustus Verginius, and would not mind it in the least if he joined me in the effort to curb the power of Iberia. Taking in mind the current debate I have decided to rephrase my Motion 8.4 in the hope that it will attract more support.

Rephrased Motion 8.4 : We will attack and take over the cities and towns of the southern coastline of Gaul, some of which belong to Gaul and some of which belong to Iberia, to provide a landroute toward Spain, as our navy is occupied in the Adriatic Sea. I volunteer myself, Lucius Aemilius, and the Legio Italia Victrix for this campaign. This Motion authorizes a declaration of war on Iberia. We are still at war with Gaul.

Should our expedition strike as far as Iberia itself I will definitely need another commander to back me up. It would be impossible for one legion to hold onto all those unwalled towns otherwise. I am quite willing to lead the assault at once with my current forces and will make do with mercenaries and any reinforcements the acting consul is inclined to send. All I ask is a regular supply of garrison troops, to guard our new territory.

Finally, senators, I hope you take a good look at the map Augustus Verginius has kindly provided, and especially the large brown stain growing larger and getting closer to our borders each season. If you see the threat as much as I do I recommend you second some of the proposed motions.

Further, I will second Motion 8.8, even tough I still balk at the word 'must'. I will also second Motion 8.9.

Senator Aemilius, it's interesting that you accuse me of propsing war on Ptolemy with no provocation, and yet, you propose the same thing against Iberia, who has also not provoked us. Further, your plan to attack the Iberians in Gaul just so happens to be such that your current command would likely get an important role in the attack as they are already deployed in Gaul. You even volunteer yourself for it outright. I wonder if you are less concerned with what's good for Rome than with what's good for yourself.

Senator Verginius wants to kill more barbarians, so his stance is predictable.

The proponents of a war on Iberia will have you believe that if they were to conquer Germany, they would suddenly become unstoppable. What's there in Germany? Germans? Trees? Iberia is of no danger to us. They can't challenge us, and will not be able to, unless they were to suddenly become civilized, although that seems unlikely.

My main issue with the plan to invade Iberia or Gaul is that we would get into another major war. You cannot practice limited warfare if you land in Iberia or attack Gaul. The barbarians will keep coming at you until you kill them all. And then they'd make babies, grow them, give them weapons and send them at you again. This war could not be finished without conquering all of Gaul and Iberia. Are you prepared to commit to that? I certainly am not, especially since I don't consider those places to be of great strategic value.

The east is different. I certainly do not seek a protracted war with Ptolemy, but he does hold some strategically and economically important positions, as do the Greeks. The war in the east would primarily be naval and could be limited in scope, and would give us the chance to capture much more valuable places than empty fields, mountains, and forests in the west. Need I also remind you that Ptolemy was at war with the Greeks and is at war with Macedon? He may have ambitions of westward expnasion, and he is a much more dangerous enemy than a group of barbarians.

As a result, I will only second Motion 8.5 of the Motions so far presented.

Let the Iberians come. If they are smart they will realize the futility of trying to invade when we have all of the chokepoints into Italia defended. Let's finish what we start first.

Motion 8.10: A new Legion is to be constructed with the purpose of reinforcing Augustus Verginius' force in Greece. That Legion will take the spot of the Consular Army, which is to conquer Athens and the Peloponessius.

Motion 8.11: By the end of the next Consul's interim period, all cities in Italia are to have walls.

Also, I second Motion 8.1.

Senator Classicianus, Motion 8.11 cannot be fulfilled. Walls can only be constructed in certain cities.

I would like to propose Motion 8.12.

Motion 8.12: That we give our Greek territories to the Illyrians, and use our Greek forces for the subjection of Iberia.

Acting first consul Tiberius Coruncanius,

We seem to misunderstand each other. I have only to listen to the reports of my men when they return from patrolling the other side of the river Massilia, as I have these last few years, and to see the worry in their eyes, to come to the conclusion that the Iberians have become a major threat.
As long as the barbarians have fought amongst themselves they could be safely ignored, but when Iberia has defeated all its rivals they will be sure to come looking for us. Their numbers will be huge considering they will hold the territory of the Iberia, Gaul, Germania and the Cartheginian colonies in Spain. It is solely out of recognition of this danger that I seek to kill this monster in its infancy, before it has grown fangs.

My concern is only the good of the state. I recommend myself and my legion because I am well-known as a Good Commander, Great Vanquisher, Good Defender, Reconnaissance Specialist and skilled Pillager, in addition to being in command of a skilled team of ancilliaries, including a barbarian turncoat. My legion consists of experienced troops, including even a veteran centurion. They are well versed in fighting the barbarians and they are anxious for combat after their border guard duty for so many years. Lastly, I and my men are in the perfect position to take on this mission. The perfect man for this job would of course be Augustus Verginius, whose name strikes terror in the hearts of all barbarians, but he is fighting in Greece at the moment. In all humility, that leaves myself as the second best choice.

We have yet only heard reports on the Ptolemaic empire, and except for our bold diplomats, no Roman has ever even seen one of its soldiers. Your proposal of an attack on them, a complete unknown to our culture, sounds to me as strange as suggesting a march to conquer India. Worse even, you say they are the enemies of our enemies, the Greeks and the, unless I am totally mistaken, soon-to-be-our enemies Macedonians. And you want to attack them ~:confused: ? I really fail to see the logic chain in your reasoning. If anything, I would suggest allying ourselves with them. So I totally fail to make the comparison between the Ptolemaic empire and Iberia. All this actually makes me wonder if you are less concerned with what's good for Rome than with what's good for yourself.

I will accordingly propose the following motion :

Motion 8.13 : As we share the same enemies, let us attempt to ally ourselves with the Ptolemaic Empire.

I will also second Motion 8.12.

Lastly, I would kindly inform senator Quintus Classicianus that his Motion 8.11 is ill-phrased as all cities in Italy that can have walls, already have those. Perhaps it would be wise to rephrase it to 'all cities in Italy that can have walls to have stone walls' or something of like that.

Senator Aemilius,

You fail to convince me that Iberia is a threat. Again you simply expect us to believe that just because the Iberians are about to capture Germany (and we don't know that they will do that), that they will suddenly become a threat. That they will somehow improve their ability to fight a war. No barbarian can stand up to the might of Rome, regardless of how many barbarian lands they hold.

Do not accuse me of being concerned mainly with self-interest unless you are willing to cite things that show that. What personal profit would I have from a war with Ptolemy? You, on the other hand, are pushing an agenda that would gain you the most glory, and are actively nominating yourself for the position most likely to achieve that. You spend no less than one third of your argument trying to convince us of how great you are. Humility is one thing your argument sorely lacks.

As for Ptolemy, I pointed out that he attacked Macedon to show that it's possible that he is considering westward expansion. That's not particularly important, as my main reason for wanting war with him is because we could conduct a limited and useful war. You say that we know nothing of his armies, but I disagree. History of Alexander and his successors is very well documented. I say we know less about the Iberians. You say you want to ally with Ptolemy because he is the enemy of our enemy, but why do you not apply such a standard consistently? The Illyrians are allies of our enemy, the Gauls, and yet you still wish to ally with them. Why are you so fond of the Illyrians, Senator?

And finally, Motion 8.12 is utter maddness. The Illyrians will have no way of garrisoning any settlements in Greece that we may give them. The Macedonians will easily be able to capture these.

Whoops! Being stationed away from Italia for the past several years I did not recall that it was impossible to wall some cities. Since the reason Motion 8.11 was proposed was to delay a rebel attack long enough for a legion to arrive, it is thus rendered useless and withdrawn.

As previously stated, Motion 8.12 does nothing for us and actually helps our enemies.

And finally, Motion 8.13 is seconded.

Given that the rephrased Motion 8.4 provides for further actions against the Gauls, the oldest and most vile enemies of Rome, I cannot in good conscience withhold my support from it. Though years pass and times change, Senators, we should never forget nor forgive the horrors inflicted upon us by these savages. I dream that I shall live to see the day when a Roman sword takes the life of the last Gallic babe, forever ending the line of this most evil of species. I second Motion 8.4.

I second motions #8.04 and #8.13.

Attacking the Ptolemaics is utter madness, and will do us no good. Their lands are far away from ours, and what shall we do when the Carthaginians choose to launch a naval assault? Hope that the Gods will magically send our fleets back to Italian waters in an instant? The war will do us no benefit, as the rich Ptolemaics are potential allies against the Greeks, yet you choose to send soldiers towards their lands in a futile attempt of conquest, which will surely end in disaster and slaughter. Do you not know how strong they are? These are the only men who can claim that the Selucids fear them. You claim that the Illyrians cannot garrison Epirus, but yet believe that we can garrison Aegyptus? This is folly.

Iberia, on the other hand, is a direct threat, and barbaric domination is unacceptable. Rome should not sit idly by, waiting until their unwashed hordes are at our doorstep. No, we must strike now, as they are preoccupied with the Northern Germanic tribes. I agree that any Roman is worth ten barbarians, but how many Romans do we have defending Massilia? Two hundred? Three hundred? Your proposal of inaction is lunacy, and I utterly condemn it.

Senator Decius Laevinus, I suggest you take a short trip down the street to our local academy/scriptorium and learn to read. Then you should read the text of Motion 8.3, and when you do you will find that it merely authorizes attacks "against the navy of Ptolemy, and raids on, or conquest of, their colonies, which include Cyprus, Rhodes, Lesbos, and coastal posessions in Asia and Thrace", and does not mention Egypt. You will also find in my other comments that I never expressed intention of invading Egypt, and you will also find that that would go against my concept of limited warfare.

Further, as much as you and others try to exaggerate the ability of the Iberians, and their threat, I remain unafraid of them.

Cyprus is well within striking distance of major Ptolemaic cities, and will be unholdable, while the taking the Ptolemaics' land in Asia Minor is sheer stupidity, and will force us to leave garrisons to deter the Selucids from attacking them.

The Iberian threat is no exaggeration. They own most of Gaul and the whole of Iberia, and the population to draw troops from, therefore, is almost double of ours. They can leave the Germans if they wish, and concentrate all their troops against our single Legion at the Massilia crossing, while many of our troops will have to stay in Epirus and Sicily for defense against other powers. You do not know the dangers, obviously, as you have not the experience of Senator Aemilius, who has guarded the passage against many a barbarian. The Iberians are much fiercer than the Gauls, and I warn you not to underestimate them. Unlike you, I have studied in the world's finest academy, in Rome herself, for many years, and I have heard countless tales of the ferocity and cruelty of the Iberians. If we do not stop them before they dominate the whole of Gaul and Germania, it may be too late to stop their inevitable attack of Italia.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of information, the state of the motions proposed in the first 24 hours of this session has now been summarised by the scribes:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...10&postcount=1

It will be updated after another 24 hours.

Though it has not been the subject of debate thusfar, I wish to speak a bit concerning Motion 8.8. For those who fear that the language of this Motion is too strict and demanding, I specifically refer you to the built-in clause that allows for a temporary Senatorial override by a simple majority. If a prospective or current Consul believes that he has a legitimate reason for not meeting the standards of Motion 8.8, he may certainly propose to lower the limit for the duration of his term or even do away with limits altogether. The Senate may confirm or reject this at its discretion, but the important thing is that the Motion requires that the Senate be consulted before this can happen.

Motion 8.8 does not set exceptionally high standards on any Consul. What it does is require a Consul to put his case before the Senate and explain why he must deplete the economy before he may do so. I believe this is certainly in the best interests of the Republic. Since this Motion requires a two-thirds majority to pass, I would like to hear the opinions of any who oppose it. I wish to address concerns and complaints, whatever they may be, so that this most important of long-term legislation may be allowed to pass.

Senators, I have warned you about the threat of Iberia. I warned you! Now that many Senators are starting to realise this, I would like to continue with my campaign to have Iberia defeated. Before I do so, I second motions 8.6, 8.7 and 8.12.

Tiberius Coruncanius, I commend your rulership thus far, you having been doing a very good job. But it must be said, Ptolemy presents no threat to us at the moment, and will not for a long period of time. They will indefinitely be crushed by their potential Seleucid and Greek enemies, we need not worry at all about them! Meanwhile, you are still ignoring the constant threat of Iberia! Surely you greatly underestimate these people, for their culture is barbarian but their armies are far superior to those of any other celtic barbarians, for the Carthaginians themselves used these people in their own armies when it was colonised by them. The Scutarii are a force to be reckoned with, demonstrating military tactics and organisation almost as good as our own!

I urge all Senators to vote for motions 8.6, 8.7 and 8.12, plus any other sensible motions that order an attack on Iberia.

[QUINTUS]: I cannot help feel that, with all the talk of attacking Iberia or Ptolmey, that we are ignoring the elephant sitting in the living room. Said pachyderm being Macedon, of course. Their armies have been shadowing ours for the last couple of years and now that we have several settlements bordering their lands, I think it highly likely that war will break out before the First Consul leaves his post.

Now, such a war need not preclude an Iberian or Ptolmeic adventure, but it will be a serious matter. How does the Senate wish such a war to be prosecuted? For my part, I believe that if such a war breaks out, the First Consul should drive aggressively into the enemy lands. Our position is too tenuous and the Macedonians too strong for it to be wise to merely hold defensively if they attack. However, there is a danger that if we initially target Macedon's settlements we widen still further the number of border settlements that we must defend.

For this reason, I wonder if revisiting Augustus Verginius's earlier proposal to take the south of Greece first would be sensible in the event of war with Macedon? Whereas before Verginius started from the premise of just holding Apollonia, we are now obliged to defend all our Epirote conquests. Nonetheless, a sea-borne landing near Sparta - for example - and subsequent push northwards through Greece and then into Macedon would seem to minimise the extent of the new borders we must defend. Alternatively, we could simply drive south by land from Thermon towards Sparta and then return northeast.

If the operation were to involve a naval landing, it would require ships and for this reason, I am reluctant to countenance a sea-borne expedition against Iberia or Egypt. Furthermore, with the likelihood of war with Macedon, I cannot support the idea of land-based adventure against Iberia. Abandoning the ford at Massila, overruning our Gaulish "buffer" settlements and picking a fight with Iberia for the Gaulish settlements that Verginius looted would seem to be folly of the first order. It would be much wiser to let the Iberians expend their resources rebuilding the Gaulish settlements and bleeding themselves against the Germans. If desired, we would be free to strike against the Iberians when the war with Greece and, likely, Macedon, is resolved.

I do not completely agree with an attack on Macedon, Senator Quintus, but assuming that an attack will be passed, will you please consider these points?

Taking the Peloponnesus would open up too many borders with the Macedonians, would it not? It would require relieving one Legion, at the least, of Epirus' defence, to take the Peloponnese from the finest Greeks, the Spartans, and the fit Hellenes of Olympia. A simpler alternative for attack would be a push forwards, into the heartlands of the Macedonian Empire, Larissa, Pella, Phillipi and Thessalonika. This will cut off the Northern section of their Empire from the Southern, and take away their core economic territories, as well as shaming them by taking their capital. Furthermore, we would not open up more borders with the Macedonians. Quite the contrary. We would be left only bordering two Macedonian territories, which will be unsupported by the Greeks. Then, we will be able to construct a series of defensive forts in the North, and finally focus on the swift annexation of the Peloponnesus.

If the First Consul is confident in his ability to execute this plan quickly and with minimal losses, it may be possible to eliminate the Hellenic military presence in the regions of Macedonia and Achaea, as well as starting the expedition in Iberia, within two consular reigns.

Senators, senators, what is this madness? What is this talk of pre-emptive wars against Iberia? How many times must I remind you, my bloodthirsty brothers, that this is not the Roman way!!

As has been repeatedly proven, the crossing at Massila is an easily defendable chokepoint. Some of you worry-warts would have us believe that the Iberians would overwhelm our Legion there by sheer force of numbers - conscipt fathers, I doubt that the trouser-wearers have such strategic subtlety. Much more likely is that they will send an army of between 1000 and 1500 men, confident in their strength and numbers. *over-confindent* in their strength and numbers. Slaying Gauls and Germans is one thing, but they have yet to face a Roman legion in battle. And when they do they will meet the same fate as every other barbarian army!

And when we have slaughtered that first 1000 in the fords of Massila, they will send another 1000, then another 1000, then another 1000. And we will slaughter every one of them. If they decide to attack us that is.

If, if, if, if. IFF!!!!!!!!!

It is all one big IF conscript fathers. They are currenly engaged in a war with Germania. IF they win that, they are much more likely to go to war against Thrace than us. Thrace has long, undefended borders, whilst we have short, well defended borders.

A pre-emptive war on Iberia, whilst we are still at war with Greece, Carthage and, to a lesser extent, Gaul, is madness! If there is any nation that is a threat to us then it is Macedon! Not that I propose war with them, unless they seek it first. My father promised that as Consul he would work towards finishing our wars - Gaul is no longer a threat, Greece is on her knees, only Carthage remains to be subdued. Let is finish these wars before we go seeking more.

Former Consul Augustus Verginius, I thank you for your vote of confidence in my ability to lead Consular I army, I am sorry that I still cannot support your proposals for war with Iberia - it only seems like last week that we were sat in your tent whilst on campaign in Gaul discussing this issue.

Furthermore, I feel that your proposals to place strict limits on the Republics economy would tie the hands of any future Consul to make the decisions he needs to run Rome as he was elected to do.

I also commend former Consul Quintus, who speaks with the wisdom of his years :rtwbow: Also, his strategy for war with Macedon would be worth consideration if they attack us.

Finally I would like to second motion 8.10

A good point about the easily defendable borders, Senator Coruncanius. However, I must say that the Iberian peninsula has mountain ranges over it's small land that bridges between Iberian and Gaul, making it almost impentrable to assault by land. However, the African territories of the Carthaginians will create a massive border with the Numidians and the Ptolemaics, and will almost certainly result in more wars, hence the objective of not starting any wars will not be fulfilled.

Also, is inaction your plan against the Iberians? Waiting until they have absolute hegemony over Gaul, Thrace, Germania and Iberia? Then we strike them, when they are the regional superpower? I fail to see the reasoning in this.

Why must I repeat myself, Senator Coruncanius?

The armies of the Iberians are NOT the same as those of other barbarians, no, where the others send trouser-wearing, unarmoured fools to their deaths, the Iberians send the Scutarii, a highly trained, sophisticated, organised body of skirmisher/shock troops similar to those of our own legions. Under-estimating the armies of Iberia is very foolish. Remember the influence the Poeni have had on their forces.

I strongly agree with the points made by Senator Laevinius. Even if we were to conquer Macedon, it would be a long and bloody war in which we lose many true Roman men. Only then would we be threatened by the Ptolemaics. Not only that, but I predict that if Iberia and Thrace went to war, Iberia would anhilate them. Giving us extra Iberian borders, and these would not be so easy to defend.

By the time Iberia defeats Thrace (if they go to war this is what will happen, if they do not go to war then Iberia will almost certainly attack us) we will have a great superpower on our hands who has already conquered most of the European peninsular. Then, I ask to all those who shrug off this threat, what will you do?

Senator Laevinius proposes Motion #8.14: If the senate approves of a war with the Macedonians and a war with the Iberians, priority will be given to the Iberian war, meaning that should we need more reinforcements than we can train, those will go to support the Iberian war.

I second motion 8.14.

SENATE SPEAKER: The deadline for the submission and seconding of motions expires at 6pm today (Thursday); there will then follow a 24 hour period of voting.

The scribes have updated the list of motions to reflect changes in the last 24 hours.

With the limit for motions closing quickly, I note that Motion 8.1 has not received the required number of seconds. I urge my fellow Senators to support this act. We all agree that Italy must be kept free of brigands. At the same time, we know our Legions are needed elsewhere to fight the Republic's wars. Retaining a full Legion at home to keep the Italian provinces free of rebellious provincials would be unnecessarily expensive and would deny reinforcements where they are needed most. Conscript Fathers, let the Latins prove their loyalty by taking full responsibility for the maintanance of order in the countryside. Their services will be cheaper than that of a Legion and will allow Roman arms to be concentrated against our foreign enemies.

I will also second Motions 8.10 and 8.14. I am not fully convinced by either of these measures, but I certainly wish to have them fully considered by a vote.

I have journeyed back just in time for this voting session. Now, I will second motion #8.01, our internal security is an issue that bares serious measures.

As to the potential voting. I will NOT support any actions against the Ptolmeics NORE the Iberians.

I will continue to support our struggle in Greece and including any actions we may take against the Macedonians.

I will support action now against Carthages growing threat.

Unfortunately I have had little time to consider proposing any new Motions this session but will vote on those proposed by others.

I will second Motion 8.10 and Motion 8.14

Time has almost run out for the following motions :

Motion 8.1 - 1 seconder needed
Motion 8.3 - 2 seconders needed
Motion 8.7 - 1 seconder needed
Motion 8.12 - 1 seconder needed

If no senator seconds these motions, they will not be included in the voting. I urge all senators to second one of these motions if they have forgotten to.