Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

Show your proof. More generalization. I highly doubt that a "majority of the folks that inhabit the middle east" have the mentality you attribute to them.

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I wash to rash saying in saying "the majority" since the majority of the middle easterners are not that radical, but there's plenty of hotbeds where have been violent reactions against anyone christian.
But to pose a counter question: how many muslims (percentage wise, roughly) do you think follow the real message of Islam that conversion should always be uncoerced, or that followers of other religions should be treated with respect?

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I've outlined this and I'll say it again. The reaction, that you claim has "gone WAY out of proportion" is just untrue when it comes to the entire Muslim world or even the Middle East. Unless you call peaceful protesting with calls for apologies overboard.

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Depends on what you consider out of proportion. Civil protests, while they should never be prohibited by anyone, can be uncalled for too. If some high ranking muslim cleric called by personal philosophy (in my case, secular humanism/agnosticism) vile, immoral or without virtue, I would certainly not dignify it with a demonstration. A lot of muslims are way to uptight about critique on their religion, we say that even more clearly with the cartoon riots.
That, and when I say that a lot of muslims react to strongly that doesn't mean that all of the protesters must have had set fire to churches or intimidated christians. With every violent outburst there's only a tiny fraction that actually commits the deeds, but many more of them don't condemn those deeds or even agree with them.

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However, I'll ask you to account for this: why hasn't this kind of reaction been seen in Kuwait, UAE, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Bahrain, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc.

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My issue is obviously not with the nations where there's been no significant outcry. I already admitted that my initial statement was to broad.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Depends on what you consider out of proportion. Civil protests, while they should never be prohibited by anyone, can be uncalled for too. If some high ranking muslim cleric called by personal philosophy (in my case, secular humanism/agnosticism) vile, immoral or without virtue, I would certainly not dignify it with a demonstration. A lot of muslims are way to uptight about critique on their religion, we say that even more clearly with the cartoon riots.
That, and when I say that a lot of muslims react to strongly that doesn't mean that all of the protesters must have had set fire to churches or intimidated christians. With every violent outburst there's only a tiny fraction that actually commits the deeds, but many more of them don't condemn those deeds or even agree with them.

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Where the protests have clearly gone out of hand (Palestine) the Hamas/Palestinan leader Haneiya has repeatedly condemned the attacks against churches.

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But to pose a counter question: how many muslims (percentage wise, roughly) do you think follow the real message of Islam that conversion should always be uncoerced, or that followers of other religions should be treated with respect?

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Is that the real message of Islam though? I say the radicals follow true Islam and the example of Mohammed.

All the Pope did was quote someone, and the Muslims fly into a rage. It's ridiculous. Muslims quote people who speak against Christianity, and the Christian community doesn't call for their death.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

It was a minor semantical error rather than a presumptuous mistake.

The point is that the Pope would have followed orders to massacre Jews had he been given them, just as he followed the orders to become a Hitler Youth. By him having been a Hitler Youth he shows he was no different - in intention - than any of those who were hung at Nuremburg.

The point is that the rest of mankind decided at Nuremburg that the reason of "I was just following Hitler's orders" is not a legitimate exscuse for one's actions, yet the Pope gets a "free pass" to be held to a different standard than that.

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You are a liar. You know nothing of the Pope but hate, while your heart apparently fills with joy in reading the latest protest by Muslims.

You also display a gross misunderstanding of the fact that the Pope is held to the same standards, and suffers not for it, because he did not do what those at Nuremburg did. Assuming that anyone joining the Hitler youth would have gladly gassed people displays your apalling lack of logical thought.

You would accuse all of WWII Germany as being as evil as those who orchestrated the final plan with your absurd logic.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Conradus

And they attacked the ERE for more then 700 years, yes 700 years against one religion...

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Excuse me but i dont think we are discussing the byzantines or the orthodox church thank you

Okay just a 24hr time out before it gets worse.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Okay just a 24hr time out before it gets worse.

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Good idea. It's getting in circles.

Aren't you going to lock it? :wacky:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Soul'

Clarification question. Are you using "fantastic" in its older meaning = based on fantasy and impressions/hypothetical and/or lacking in data OR the more common US English usage = wonderful/great?

I'm assuming the former....

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Yes and I should have told that. I'm asuming it in grades, it can range from fantasy to especulation based on scarse or incomplete information. But the phenomenum is undeniable: people seeing latin america as a niche of insecurity in globally, the US as an evil empire, the middle west as a foundamentalists "soup" or even France as the country wich cannot fight wars because they "always" lose... They're in part generalizations, but many people part from the a priori proposition of this truths with the simple mention of X being X in the newspaper.

Unlocked.

Play nicely.

No bashing each other.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal99

Excuse me but i dont think we are discussing the byzantines or the orthodox church thank you

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That's a bit of a hasty exclusion. For one thing, the offending quote was taken from a Byzantine ruler, so they're certainly involved in the discussion in one form or another.

Furthermore, the context of the quote was a response to an assertion that Islam had basically ceased aggressive expansion after Tours in the 8th century, while implying that the same was not true for Christianity, since the crusades took place later (also the Imperialist Age, which somehow has escaped being brought into the discussion). The post you quoted was a response that Islamic aggression still took place in the east. I already responded that I consider that Turkish aggression more secular than religious in purpose, but I would say the same of the crusades or later wars.

Orthodox Christianity is still Christianity, and both the Orthodox church and the Byzantine empire played a significant role in Christian-Islamic relations over the centuries.

Ajax

there was nothing wrong with what the pope said, and the reaction of various muslims does no credit to the religion they profess to follow.

n.b. i am an athiest

He lives in Democracy thus he is allowed to say what he wants, or does this not apply in Italy? If Muslims dont like it who cares? I certainley couldnt there are some Muslims who bad mouth Christianity and the western culture everyday and get of scott free so who cares what the Pope says about Islam/Muslims.

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

He lives in Democracy

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Actually he doesn't ... but as he is the head of his non-democratic state you are of course right that he can technically say what he wants ~;)

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Actually he doesn't ... but as he is the head of his non-democratic state you are of course right that he can technically say what he wants

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college of cardinals - partially democratic...

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Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

college of cardinals - partially democratic...

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Getting elected by a body whose members are appointed by the previous Popes (and of which most are not citizens of the state the Pope is head of) is really only very partially democratic

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Is that the real message of Islam though? I say the radicals follow true Islam and the example of Mohammed.

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Fairly recently on the radio were some brilliant interviews with British people who had converted to Islam. They really annoyed some Arab Muslims who were interviewed too, with completely different views etc.

Don't confuse a religion with a culture would probably be the lesson there I guess.

Hate is pointless. Espically hating millions of people all over the world who you have never met and will never.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

Hate is pointless. Espically hating millions of people all over the world who you have never met and will never.

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Depends on what your point is. The extremists (and politicians) seem to find it pretty useful in a motivational sort of way.

Kind of works here too, Hate Bush? Join the Democratic Party.
Hummm, hate liberals? Join the Republican Party. Two way street I guess.

hating everyone is the crossraods.

Ugly Kid Joe ~D

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