Was the US justified in removing the Taliban from power in Afghanistan?

there's an overwhelming amount of evidence actually. I'd suggest checking out some of the great documentaries out there like Loose Change or 9/11 Revisited.

I challenge you to watch at least 1 in its entirety and still be convinved the 9/11 comission's report was accurate.

http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

http://www.laughingpond.com/watch.as...4jf34j2mnd3koa

Jesus Zak, both of those have been debunked. Even Wiki says that.

no, they havent been. heres an example of supposed debunking:

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* Loose Change compares the Collapse of the World Trade Center to other notable high rise fires, but does not clarify differences in building design and size, structural damage and compromised fireproofing.[25] (However, not all the critiques agree on this point - 9-11 Research, for example, critiques Loose Change but supports the Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center). There is no exploration on the effect of fire on unprotected structural steel, which "loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F."[26] Kevin Ryan the "expert" source from Underwriters Laboratories for steel certification is actually a non-expert from a subsidiary for water testing,[3] Underwriters Laboratories does not certify structural steel,[25][3] and ASTM E119 certification involves intact fireproofing as conducted by Underwriters Laboratories for the NIST in 2004.[27] The NIST could find no record of any previous certification tests ever being conducted on the novel WTC floor system.[27] The NIST demonstrated the fireproofing was not intact by firing shotguns on fireproofed steel; critics find this unconvincing.[28]

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Irrelevant , since they havn't been removed from Afghanistan and the Afghan president says that the Taliban are always welcome in Afghanistan .

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Hehe! how is it irrelevant since my opinion deals with the topic?

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no, they havent been.

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In my opinion there is more than enough information out there to call them disproven - myths so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

there's an overwhelming amount of evidence actually. I'd suggest checking out some of the great documentaries out there like Loose Change or 9/11 Revisited.

I challenge you to watch at least 1 in its entirety and still be convinved the 9/11 comission's report was accurate.

http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

http://www.laughingpond.com/watch.as...4jf34j2mnd3koa

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As stated before those two films have been debunked several times.

http://www.debunking911.com/

Your losing more and more creditablity with angry rethoric that is short of hard facts.

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how is it irrelevant since my opinion deals with the topic?

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read what you wrote:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

no, they havent been. heres an example of supposed debunking:

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blah blah blah[25] (However, not all the critiques agree on this point - 9-11 Research, for example, critiques Loose Change but supports the Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center) blah blah blah

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Saying it's possible is nowhere near close to saying that it actually happened.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

As stated before those two films have been debunked several times.

http://www.debunking911.com/

Your losing more and more creditablity with angry rethoric that is short of hard facts.

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while on the other hand many seem to be afraid of asking questions outright and ready to accept the assurances of the establishment and ridicule those who question as 'crazy' or 'conspirists'. There are many questions that have not been satisfactorially answered.

just off the top of my head, why would the FBI confiscate and not release the video footage from the hotel and gas station across the street from the pentagon with a perfect view of the impact site? to this day those videos have not been released by the FBI. Why? if the government wants to conclusively prove once and for all a plane hit the pentagon, why not release the footage.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

read what you wrote:idea2:

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"Was the US justified in removing the Taliban from power in Afghanistan?"

"Yes I believe the U.S. was justified in removing the Taliban from Afganistan."


There you go~D

There's already footage of both planes hitting the world trade centre...

There's also hundreds if not thousands of eyewitness accounts.

What would a couple of videos more do?

well actually there are only a dozen eyewitness accounts for the pentagon strike, which could easily be fabricated or placed. the 5 frames that have been released do not show any type of aircraft. why would they not release them is the question.

Zak, let's suppose we hypothetically give you a pass on the Pentagon (and frankly, that is one hell of a pass, based on the pathetic levels of credibility most of the 911-hoax sites offer, they mostly ask questions that they claim cannot be answered 100%. True, but nobody can prove 100% that I'm not the father of Anna Nicole's baby).

Why would the military industrial complex bomb itself? And how would they know to chose the exact moment the 2 planes hit the twin towers? Wouldn't they achieve the same affect by bombing somebody they don't care, like Congress? :laugh4:

we all know the reasons, for the supposed false flag operations, why attack the pentagon itself? i presume for some sort of plausible deniability but we might never know for sure of course.

the plane just so happened to hit the only wall of the pentagon that was recently re-inforced.

the plane also luckily struck the farthest possibly away from Mr. Rumsfeld's office.

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The Bush Administration claims the terrorists were successful because the U.S. had faulty intelligence, bad luck, and bureaucratic ineptitude, but that isn't true. Vice President Dick Cheney monitored the flight path of Flight 77, the commercial airliner that crashed into the Pentagon. Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta was in the Presidential Emergency Operating Center with Vice President Cheney as American Airlines Flight 77 approached Washington, D.C. Secretary Norman Mineta testified to the 911 Commission on May 23, 2003:

"When I got to the White House, it was being evacuated. . . . Then the Secret Service escorted me down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, otherwise known as the PEOC. . . . We did not know how many more attacks might be in progress. . . . During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out."

And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?"

And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"

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"Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filled with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building."
—SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld, Pentagon press briefing

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Freudian slip? LOL


Besides, is it really so far-out? We know for fact the US government has conducted and planned to conduct several terrorist operations in the past, incluidng the hijacking or faking of plane hijackings and bombings to blame on our enemies. We've attacked ourselves before as well, FACT.


http://www.geocities.com/s911surpris...ltown_aa77.jpg


In the aftermath, it was reported by media sources that a giant 100 ft. crater was plowed into the front lawn of the Pentagon as the result of a powerful airliner crash? Why does photographic evidence overwhelmingly show that this was absolutely not the case? Why no crater? Why no skid marks? Why no burn marks? Why was the entire world deliberately mislead?

Given that the only hole is approximately 16 ft. in diameter - how does a jetliner over 44 feet tall and 125 ft. wide fit into that hole as shown in the crystal-clear and close-up photographic evidence from the Pentagon?

Zak, you are a hoot. They bombed the Pentagon, with themselves in it, just to have plausible deniability? Do you know how implausible all this sounds? Not to mention, we're talking about the US government here. They couldn't even fire some political appointees properly, yet somehow they pulled this off without a shred of actual hard evidence, just you and your conspiracy sites?

You said you were in military intelligence, right? Are you guys conducting an experiment on the population at large, to see how gullible we are?

can you answer the questions?

and no, im not talking about the US government. Im talking about the multi-national U.S. conglomerates who puppeteer several people within the government.

There was a big thing done here disproving that missile theory a year or two ago, but I'm not going to try and find it, but I'll summarise what I can remember.

The wings snapped off the plane on impact, hence why no 200 food with hole.

And how is a person meant to find Rummies office when travelling at 500mph?

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Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

There was a big thing done here disproving that missile theory a year or two ago, but I'm not going to try and find it, but I'll summarise what I can remember.

The wings snapped off the plane on impact, hence why no 200 food with hole.

And how is a person meant to find Rummies office when travelling at 500mph?

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so, if the wings 'snapped off' where the *bleep* did they go?

Into ze hole following the rest of the plane. Inertia man.

uh, that hole was only 16 feet across. come on. seriously.

When have we attacked ourselves before?

the most famous case would most likely be the USS Liberty incident--where, I'll grant you, it wasnt US forces conducting the attack, but rather was Israeli military forces attacking US forces on orders from the President of the United States. Check it out, its pretty shocking.

The plan was to have the Liberty sank by "Egyptian" aggressors, allowing the US to enter the war on Israel's side and take over Egypt.

Unfortunately a Russian vessel intervened and witnessed the attack whereupona after several hours of strafing and torpedoing the ship, the attackers had to be called off because of the witnesses, leaving the Liberty to limp back to the fleet.

A famous quote from then President Johnson was "God******, I want that ship to go to the bottom!" when commanders kept asking if they could send help, according to 6th Fleet rear admiral Lawrence Geis.


you could look into the scores of false flag operations that have been conducted by the SOF community and the CIA.

Another great example would be the sinking of the USS Maine as a pretext for war with Spain.

Operation Northwoods is probably the most famous official plans for false flag terrorist operations conducted by the US against the US, though President Kennedy didnt like the idea.

The USS Maine was an accident. It wasnt a delibrate act, Granted it was a mircale for the imprealsit goverment but it wass not delibrate.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

while on the other hand many seem to be afraid of asking questions outright and ready to accept the assurances of the establishment and ridicule those who question as 'crazy' or 'conspirists'. There are many questions that have not been satisfactorially answered.

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Legimate questions and concerns have been raised. However you mentioned two theories that have alreadly been debunked. And debunked on this forum by individuals who are highly critical of the United States.

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just off the top of my head, why would the FBI confiscate and not release the video footage from the hotel and gas station across the street from the pentagon with a perfect view of the impact site? to this day those videos have not been released by the FBI. Why? if the government wants to conclusively prove once and for all a plane hit the pentagon, why not release the footage.

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Good question - but that is not the same as bringing up two theories that have alreadly been debunked. Questions still are being asked about Pearl Harbor also, many loop holes have not been closed concerning that event, however everyone accepts that the Japanese did indeed attack the United States at Pearl Harbor.

Asking questions about the failure of the security systems and agencies responsible for intelligence and the security of the nation are more then welcome.

Bringing up conspricary theories that are alreadly debunked well loses creditablity.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

the most famous case would most likely be the USS Liberty incident--where, I'll grant you, it wasnt US forces conducting the attack, but rather was Israeli military forces attacking US forces on orders from the President of the United States. Check it out, its pretty shocking.

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You need to stop while your way behind. This is just getting to damn funny.

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The plan was to have the Liberty sank by "Egyptian" aggressors, allowing the US to enter the war on Israel's side and take over Egypt.

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That was indeed the plan of the Israel operation.

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Unfortunately a Russian vessel intervened and witnessed the attack whereupona after several hours of strafing and torpedoing the ship, the attackers had to be called off because of the witnesses, leaving the Liberty to limp back to the fleet.

A famous quote from then President Johnson was "God******, I want that ship to go to the bottom!" when commanders kept asking if they could send help, according to 6th Fleet rear admiral Lawrence Geis.

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Good it be that President Johnson was refering to something else? Hmm Or maybe he did refer wanting the ship sunk to hide the evidence of the Israel Attack from the American People.

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you could look into the scores of false flag operations that have been conducted by the SOF community and the CIA.

Another great example would be the sinking of the USS Maine as a pretext for war with Spain.

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One must look at each instance, for examble its been proven by several that the most likely happening for the USS Maine was that the boiler blew up. If you know anything about steam powered boats during that time period and the location of the boiler - you begin to see that the possiblity of this occurance was more likely then an own purpose sinking of the ship by some nubleous force.

The war with Spain is a text book examble of yellow journalism.

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Operation Northwoods is probably the most famous official plans for false flag terrorist operations conducted by the US against the US, though President Kennedy didnt like the idea.

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Plans do not equate to reality. There are many plans are made and never actually executed to test the readiness of the Armed Forces.

The problem with neublus conspiracy theories of such a magnitude is that they do not rest on truth but on the suspecions of the conspiracy maker.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

You need to stop while your way behind. This is just getting to damn funny.

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Read these runes! They compass much witful advice.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

That was indeed the plan of the Israel operation.

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Anybody ever pry any source material out of Tel Aviv on that? The official line has always been mistaken identity/regrettable incident.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

One must look at each instance, for examble its been proven by several that the most likely happening for the USS Maine was that the boiler blew up. If you know anything about steam powered boats during that time period and the location of the boiler - you begin to see that the possiblity of this occurance was more likely then an own purpose sinking of the ship by some nubleous force.

The war with Spain is a text book examble of yellow journalism.

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I'd read an article and seen a piece on THC that the #1 theory currently is an undetected coal bunker fire (shockingly common in the era) and ammunition stored improperly close on the otherside of a metal bulkhead.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

The problem with neublus conspiracy theories of such a magnitude is that they do not rest on truth but on the suspecions of the conspiracy maker.

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All conspiracy theories take as their start point that little or nothing happens by chance. All events must be the result of human agency, so if something bad happens, it must be the result of somebody who wanted the ill occurrence to happen for their own nefarious ends.

So Cheney doesn't really hunt quail, he goes to bayou country to pack C4 into levees -- Bush trusts his aim. :smartass:

Impact craters from a crashing airplanes cannot be round -- despite what those pesky physicists have told us about the shape of impact craters regardless of the impact trajectory -- so if there was no trench it must have been an explosive missile. :wiseguy:

And a 10 minute kerosene fire cannot possibly ignite other substances around it generating a fire capable of weakening structural steel -- only a demolition job could have weakened enough floors to bring down the three buildings. :shame:


Conspiracy theories are a lovely effort at ego-stroking -- only human skullduggery could have accomplished X. :dizzy:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Impact craters from a crashing airplanes cannot be round -- despite what those pesky physicists have told us about the shape of impact craters regardless of the impact trajectory -- so if there was no trench it must have been an explosive missile. :wiseguy:

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Correct there is no such thing as a round impact crater - all form a eciplical shape based upon the angle of impact. Even then a perfect 90 degree impact would not result in a perfect round crater.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I'd read an article and seen a piece on THC that the #1 theory currently is an undetected coal bunker fire (shockingly common in the era) and ammunition stored improperly close on the otherside of a metal bulkhead.

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Read that one too, I still prefer the boiler theory because of its common occurence during the time period also. But the bunker fire is also very viable, given that coal dust in itself has a tendency to explode in confine spaces.

i find it it amazing that you are so keen on believing the government line, when we know for a fact that the government has lied to us about myriad things in the past. how can one be so naive?

so you tell me then, where did the plane go?

how were all four black boxes at the world trade center, made from the most indestructable materials on earth, dissintigrate, whilst one of the 'terrorist' passports, made of what's known as paper, miraculously survive?

how come 8 of the supposed hijackers are still alive and well today, living in various countries around the world and giving interviews about how their IDs were stolen?

how do you explain the molten steel in WTC 1 and 2, 5 floors below street level?

how come nearly 1 billion dollars in gold was removed from WTC 1 and 2 during the attack, and has not been accounted for to this day?

those are just a few of the many unanswered questions, and you seem to think the government is telling us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. come on.

and regarding the Liberty:

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* "...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."- Former CIA Director Richard Helms[7]

* "I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "- Former US Secretary of State Dean Rusk[8]

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

i find it it amazing that you are so keen on believing the government line, when we know for a fact that the government has lied to us about myriad things in the past. how can one be so naive?

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A lie of the nature you want to believe it to be, would of alreadly cracked given the nature of American Politics.

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so you tell me then, where did the plane go?

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Into the building. Collasping into itself because of the nature of the building that it hit. The Plane also went fairily deep into the complex.

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how were all four black boxes at the world trade center, made from the most indestructable materials on earth, dissintigrate, whilst one of the 'terrorist' passports, made of what's known as paper, miraculously survive?

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Hmm have you ever been around any material that survived a fire as intense as what brought down the Twin Towers? Have you ever been around an impact zone? Funny things are found at other plane crashes.

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how come 8 of the supposed hijackers are still alive and well today, living in various countries around the world and giving interviews about how their IDs were stolen?

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LOL - stolen ID's automatically mean that the United States government stole them. Oh boy now that is funny.

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how do you explain the molten steel in WTC 1 and 2, 5 floors below street level?

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Gravity.

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how come nearly 1 billion dollars in gold was removed from WTC 1 and 2 during the attack, and has not been accounted for to this day?

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Ah that is a lot of gold - but no-one has ever provide proof that the gold was actually stored in the World Trade Centers.

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those are just a few of the many unanswered questions, and you seem to think the government is telling us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. come on.

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Tsk Tsk - an emotional appeal because I dis-believe wacky conspricary theories. That is just to funny. When I see facts - I see truth. When I see opinions wrapped around conspricary theories - I see just that.