MTW Pocket Mod: Units, Buildings and Unit Stats

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Originally Posted by Belisario

The question about Kataphraktoi/Klibanophoroi is often a large matter of debate. In the post-Manzikert era the main source of heavy cavalry for Byzantium was the pronoia system and the mercenaries. Cavalrymen with horse armour like the soldier in the Kataphraktoi info pic were not many. However the retainers of the Byzantine rulers or generals and some units of the imperial guard perhaps were equipped in such way. You could maintain the Kataphraktoi as a 20 man BG unit or even create a BG unit called Dynatoi Oiketai (Magnates' retainers) and maintain the 40 man Kataphrakoi unit (but very expensives, only available in the Early era and two years to train).

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Well that's basically how Kataphraktoi are now, a 20 man scalable unit. So I suppose, keep the name, or rename them as Dynatoi Oiketai, and leave them as they are, but increase the dependencies and costs for raising new ones.

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Originally Posted by Belisario

I think this unit could be preserve to represent the huge amount of Pecheneg, Cuman, Alan, Turk mercenaries in Byzantine service during the period covered by MTW. There are several terms for these soldiers who mostly fought as light horse-archers: Skythikoi for Pechenegs and Cumans, Tourkopouloi for christianised Turks, Vardariotai for an elite guard unit formed by Turks or Hungarians settled in the Vardar valley, Alanoi or Massagetoi for Alans.

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Well the Steppe Horse Archers I've introduced will probably fill that role as would Alan Mercenary Cavalry. I was thinking of placing the Byzantine Cavalry on a par with the Pronoiarioi Stratiotai, but with bows and a reduced charge? If I were to do so, what sort of naming would we be looking at?

(I was going to mention that, according to the highly unreliable wikipedia, Byzantine Kataphractoi carried both bow and spear. It also notes that the army was chiefly composed of bowmen and cavalry -and cavalry archers-, with heavy infantry playing the role of opening gaps for cavalry)

Perhaps a full rehasal of the byzantine units&building order is in order?


BTW: in regard to the earlier topic of "Royal bodyguards trainable only in your capital", I was going to suggest limiting the training of these to capitals. AKA: You can only train Royal Knights in Castile, Aragon, Ile de France, London, and whatnot, Kataphractoi in Constantinople, Siphanis in Rum, and Ghulams in Cordoba, Cairo and Rum.

It would also give a degree of realism to the game, with the royal family generals and/or monarch having to travel back to the capital from time to time

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

(I was going to mention that, according to the highly unreliable wikipedia, Byzantine Kataphractoi carried both bow and spear. It also notes that the army was chiefly composed of bowmen and cavalry -and cavalry archers-, with heavy infantry playing the role of opening gaps for cavalry)

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There are far too many conflicting sources without bringing wikipedia into it (:laugh4:), but that isn't far off what I've read elsewhere. The Skutatoi and Kontaratoi apparently formed a kind of "base" for the cavalry and nothing more. The cavalry being the mainstay of the force.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Perhaps a full rehasal of the byzantine units&building order is in order?

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I think so, but I must admit I'm beginning to lose patience with them [the byz]. Everytime I think something is clear, another hitch turns up. Their history, especially militarily seems to be made up mainly of speculation and opinion. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

BTW: in regard to the earlier topic of "Royal bodyguards trainable only in your capital", I was going to suggest limiting the training of these to capitals. AKA: You can only train Royal Knights in Castile, Aragon, Ile de France, London, and whatnot, Kataphractoi in Constantinople, Siphanis in Rum, and Ghulams in Cordoba, Cairo and Rum.

It would also give a degree of realism to the game, with the royal family generals and/or monarch having to travel back to the capital from time to time

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Good in theory but possibly not in practice. I've so far modded the Royal Palace as a unique building. This basically means that the bodyguard units for the muslims and catholics can only be produced in one province. Capitals also moved around during that period, and because the game does not follow history exactly your capital may move also. This would leave you unable to train the bodyguard units.

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Originally posted by Caravel

I think so, but I must admit I'm beginning to lose patience with them [the byz]. Everytime I think something is clear, another hitch turns up. Their history, especially militarily seems to be made up mainly of speculation and opinion.

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It is indeed and it is a point of frustration equally for making a mod as for many other things too.

To put it in a LOTR kind of way with cheesy Hollywood voice, very few things are trully known about Byzantium "...for none now lives to remember it..."

If i was in your shoes, i would make their units fight in a certain style when combined in each era that is reflecting their strengths (organisation/professionality, focus on tactics, avoid taking losses due to having to fight in multiple fronts wth lesser numbers, good use of missiles, brute force only at the tip point) rather than anything else. I would use what accounts have to offer to make the mod enjoyable in a way i wished without being ahistorical.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

There are far too many conflicting sources without bringing wikipedia into it (:laugh4:), but that isn't far off what I've read elsewhere. The Skutatoi and Kontaratoi apparently formed a kind of "base" for the cavalry and nothing more. The cavalry being the mainstay of the force.

I think so, but I must admit I'm beginning to lose patience with them [the byz]. Everytime I think something is clear, another hitch turns up. Their history, especially militarily seems to be made up mainly of speculation and opinion. :sweatdrop:

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I second excetchzebe1 in saying that you should probably just "go with what you got". Given how information on the Byzantines' order of battle seems to be both relatively scant and/or contradictory, I think it's going to be all but impossible to come up with a unit roster that's truly "realistic". Unless and until someone comes up with a way to travel back in time, we could sit here merrily debating the issue until the Second Coming. ~:rolleyes:

I would say go ahead and change the BI to the Skutatoi as planned, redo the Katanks if you wish, and then call it good. Otherwise the Byz unit roster will be in a permanent state of flux, which could cause an existential crisis. The poor soldiers will begin wondering whether or not they're really there, or if they're just figments of their own (digital) imaginations. ~D

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Originally Posted by Caravel

I've so far modded the Royal Palace as a unique building.

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By the way, I've been meaning to tell you that I really appreciate the change. Being able to train bodyguard units in just my capital definitely helps with the immersion factor. :2thumbsup:

Ok so let's break it down somewhat. As the original Byzantine units, we have:

Trebizond Archers
Byzanine Infantry
Kataphraktoi
Pronoiai Allagion
Byzantine Cavalry
Byzantine Lancers

The question is, are the extra units needed? (giving them CA style names):

Trebizond Archers
Byzantine Light Infantry
Byzantine Infantry
Byzantine Spearmen
Kataphraktoi
Kataphraktoi Horse Archers
Pronoiai Allagion
Byzantine Cavalry
Byzantine Lancers

The next question is, are the following unit renames good enough?

Trebizond Archers -> Toxotai
Byzantine Light Infantry -> Psiloi
Byzantine Infantry -> Skutatoi
Byzantine Spearmen -> Kontaratoi
Kataphraktoi
Kataphraktoi Horse Archers -> Kataphraktoi Toxotai
Pronoiai Allagion -> Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi
Byzantine Cavalry -> Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi (Toxotai? or ?)
Byzantine Lancers -> Pronoiarioi Stratiotai

After this is the unit stats for the following, with my suggestions so far:

Toxotai - as Archers
Psiloi - as Trebizond Archers
Skutatoi - As Byzantine Infantry 60 man unit
Kontaratoi - As Chivalric Sergeants (or Feudal Sergeants or Armoured Spearmen or other?) 100 man unit
Kataphraktoi - No change - 20 man scalable unit
Kataphraktoi Toxotai - As Kataphraktoi with less charge and compound bows
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi - As Pronoiai Allagion
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi (Toxotai? or ?) - As Pronoiai Allagion with less charge and compound bows
Pronoiarioi Stratiotai - As Byzantine Lancers

Unit dependencies also need to be finalised.

This is where we've got so far renaming Ottoman units, as per Belisario's recommendations:

Sipahis of the Porte -> Kapikulu Sipahis

Ottoman Sipahis -> Anatolian Timarli Sipahis

Rumelian Timarli Sipahis (new unit possibly similar in appearance and stats to the vanilla Pronoiai Allagion)

Janissary infantry -> Nefer Janissaries

Janissary Heavy Infantry -> Zirhli Nefer Janissaries

Janissary Archers -> ?

Ottoman Infantry -> Zirhli Nefer or Baltaci

Saracen Infantry -> Anatolian Infantry

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Ok so let's break it down somewhat. As the original Byzantine units, we have:

Trebizond Archers
Byzanine Infantry
Kataphraktoi
Pronoiai Allagion
Byzantine Cavalry
Byzantine Lancers

The question is, are the extra units needed? (giving them CA style names):

Trebizond Archers
Byzantine Light Infantry
Byzantine Infantry
Byzantine Spearmen
Kataphraktoi
Kataphraktoi Horse Archers
Pronoiai Allagion
Byzantine Cavalry
Byzantine Lancers

The next question is, are the following unit renames good enough?

Trebizond Archers -> Toxotai
Byzantine Light Infantry -> Psiloi
Byzantine Infantry -> Skutatoi
Byzantine Spearmen -> Kontaratoi
Kataphraktoi
Kataphraktoi Horse Archers -> Kataphraktoi Toxotai
Pronoiai Allagion -> Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi
Byzantine Cavalry -> Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi (Toxotai? or ?)
Byzantine Lancers -> Pronoiarioi Stratiotai

After this is the unit stats for the following, with my suggestions so far:

Toxotai - as Archers
Psiloi - as Trebizond Archers
Skutatoi - As Byzantine Infantry 60 man unit
Kontaratoi - As Chivalric Sergeants (or Feudal Sergeants or Armoured Spearmen or other?) 100 man unit
Kataphraktoi - No change - 20 man scalable unit
Kataphraktoi Toxotai - As Kataphraktoi with less charge and compound bows
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi - As Pronoiai Allagion
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi (Toxotai? or ?) - As Pronoiai Allagion with less charge and compound bows
Pronoiarioi Stratiotai - As Byzantine Lancers

Unit dependencies also need to be finalised.

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Not my field but I'd say go for it. A lot of work has gone into it really, and it's a drastic improvement from the original set-up:yes:

Glad to hear you got those Swedish Peasants working, I was thinking I might have put a little too much work on your shoulders:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

The question is, are the extra units needed? (giving them CA style names):

Trebizond Archers
Byzantine Light Infantry
Byzantine Infantry
Byzantine Spearmen
Kataphraktoi
Kataphraktoi Horse Archers
Pronoiai Allagion
Byzantine Cavalry
Byzantine Lancers

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Well unless you're going to make the build requirements for Byz LI (Psiloi) insanely high, I think having both them and regular archers (Toxotai) would be pretty redundant. It would be like how the Muslim factions had both vanilla archers and Desert Archers -- seems rather pointless IMHO.

I'm also not sure about the katank HA's (Kataphraktoi Toxotai). Historically accurate they may be, but I have to wonder as to how often a Byzantine player would actually use them. Given that they'll still have access to Byz Cavalry (Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi/Toxotai), again it seems like it would be a rather redundant unit. Still, I can't deny that at least they seem to have actually existed, so what do I know? :shrug:

Other than that, however, the roster looks good. :thumbsup:

(Sheesh. I can't believe I'm actually arguing to pair *down* a faction's unit roster. Surely something is wrong with me....)

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Originally Posted by Caravel

The next question is, are the following unit renames good enough?

Trebizond Archers -> Toxotai
Byzantine Light Infantry -> Psiloi
Byzantine Infantry -> Skutatoi
Byzantine Spearmen -> Kontaratoi
Kataphraktoi
Kataphraktoi Horse Archers -> Kataphraktoi Toxotai
Pronoiai Allagion -> Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi
Byzantine Cavalry -> Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi (Toxotai? or ?)
Byzantine Lancers -> Pronoiarioi Stratiotai.

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Looks good to me, Caravel. The only thing I can think of would be to maybe rename the regualar Kataphractoi as Klibanophoroi (if only to better differentiate between them and the Kataphractoi Toxotai), but that's it. I think you have a good list there. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

After this is the unit stats for the following, with my suggestions so far:

Toxotai - as Archers
Psiloi - as Trebizond Archers
Skutatoi - As Byzantine Infantry 60 man unit
Kontaratoi - As Chivalric Sergeants (or Feudal Sergeants or Armoured Spearmen or other?) 100 man unit
Kataphraktoi - No change - 20 man scalable unit
Kataphraktoi Toxotai - As Kataphraktoi with less charge and compound bows
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi - As Pronoiai Allagion
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi (Toxotai? or ?) - As Pronoiai Allagion with less charge and compound bows
Pronoiarioi Stratiotai - As Byzantine Lancers

Unit dependencies also need to be finalised.

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I would say keep the Kontaratoi as CS-type units (though with lower charge and higher morale stats, maybe?); and to keep the Pronoiarioi Toxotai the same, unless you wanted to up their melee stats a bit (I would otherwise leave them be). Everything else looks pretty peachy. ~:)

A solid list.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Well unless you're going to make the build requirements for Byz LI (Psiloi) insanely high, I think having both them and regular archers (Toxotai) would be pretty redundant. It would be like how the Muslim factions had both vanilla archers and Desert Archers -- seems rather pointless IMHO.

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Agreed.

Well the idea behind the regular archers was to have a replacement for the vanilla archers (which the byzantine cannot access). They would have the same stats.

Here are the dependencies I'm looking at:

Toxotai - Bowyer
Psiloi - Bowyer
Skutatoi - Swordsmith
Kontaratoi - Spearmakers Guild
Kataphraktoi - Horse Breeders' Guild and Armourers' Guild
Kataphraktoi Toxotai - Horse Breeders' Guild and Bowyers' Guild
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi - Horse Breeders' Guild and Spearmakers' Guild
Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi Toxotai - Horse Breeders' Guild and Bowyers' Guild and Swordsmith
Pronoiarioi Stratiotai - Spearmakers' Workshop and Horse Breeder

I'm with Martok on the Toxotai and Kataphraktoi Toxotai, I think they would be largely redundant.

The recruitment and support costs will be much the same apart from the Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi Toxotai which will need to be adjusted in line with the Pronoiarioi Kavallarioi. I would make them cheaper to build but slightly more costly to support.

I've been looking into the Mongol Warriors. I was thinking of reassigning them as a dismount only unit for the Steppe Horse Archers, Steppe Heavy Cavalry and Mongol Horse Archers, and renaming them as "Dismounted Steppe Horsemen".

This will also, hopefully, stop the Mongols Emerging with them, though that is possibly hardcoded? There is another unit bif known as "MongolAuxilliaryCavalry", this could be introduced as another mongol unit called simply "Mongol Cavaly", to give three types of cavaly.

Sounds good. To stop them emerging when the Mongols do go to GnomeEditor (their entry is #72) and find column 11. Then delete the bit that says "MONG_RAIDERS(-15),", this will prevent them emerging with the Mongols. Or you could set it to "MONG_RAIDERS(0),"; either way works.

Gah, who is this Cambyses II? What happened to Manco/Caravel ~;)

Once this mod comes out I'll reinstall MTW/VI immediately :2thumbsup:

About the Scutatoi...maybe you can give them stats similar to swordsmen, but with a spear animation and an anti-cav bonus?

I have made a Infopic for the Byzantine Spearmen (Kontaratoi). I got the image from the Osprey book Byzantine Armies 1118-1461. You can download the infopic in this link (search the file ByzantineSpearmen_InfoPic.zip):
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mt...ads/MTWupload/

An idea for Sicily: apparently Frederick II allowed muslims to settle there as his personal guard (mainly because he had good relations with muslim princes, and they didn´t mind when he got excommed, apparently).
So, maybe the King of Sicily could have access to some muslim units? Perhaps Faris, or maybe Desert Archers?

You know, that's a good point, Guy. I rather like that idea. I'm not sure about Faris, but it probably wouldn't be unrealistic to have some sort of Muslim archer unit available to the Sicilians. :yes:

Still, it's entirely up to Cambyses/Caravel as to whether he decides to add something like that to the Pocket Mod or not. I know creating new units is a non-trivial task, so it's probably better to ask him.

Medmod IV, makes in fact use of this: the Sicilians can recruit muslims as their spear unit in all eras as well as their light cavalry. Its an interesting addition that gives a distinct style to their roster that needs to be IMO different than the Northern Italians. Also adding North African provinces to their homelands makes up for nice colonial wars.

Noir

Well, you have a point there. Simply adding Sicily and/or naples as provinces where some muslim unit such as Desert Archers could be built would make a Sicilian player able to exploit all desert provinces for his unit production.

Plus, on the gameplay side, it would not show the "mercenary" status of those units, so it would be fitting to use a custom one. Then again, this does not necessarily mean over-complication, as an already working muslim unit (maybe the Futuwwas, or Janissary bowmen?) could be copied, and used with a different description along the lines of "Territorial disputes with the Papacy have forced the Crown of Sicily resort to recruiting muslim settlers in their lands as soldiers. These men are both indifferent to excommunication threats and loyal to the King of Sicily beyond any kinship with fellow muslim rulers, making them a fierce fighting force in Sicilian armies - as long as they are paid"

They could be called... Mercenary Sarracen Militia, or something?

Why not increase their number from 60 to l00?

Concerning my observation of Spain after my tweaking of Spanish jinetes to make them more expensive to produce and keep

As I said, they managed to kick the almohads out of Spain by lll8, or so, but they only had four units of jinetes in their attacking armies. The main strike force were the king and his heirs.

together they carried the battle to the Sahara, and by ll32, or so, the Almohads were wiped out
HOWEVER
Spain´s abuse of heirs in combat meant that eventually, the King was left without any heir, and he died without offspring or generals of royal blood. That very same turn the Almohads resurged in eight provinces (I´d check which, but I´m having trouble holding to my rump and bankrupt Holy Roman Empire as it is. Likely I´ll have to slash and burn some British city)

Also, I lowered the build time of Ballistas from 2 to one turn. It doesn´t seem to unbalance them, and it makes them fit as a cheap and (mostly) worthless artillery campaign, as their inherent inaccuracy makes hitting things a fluke. And the AI doesn´t go into ballista-building sprees because of this either, for the record.

I'm unsure as to whether it is Jinetes giving The Castilian - Leonese the edge over the Moors. The missiles are after all not taken into account in AI vs AI autocalced battles so it's not the missiles causing it. The Jinete stats are as follows:

Charge: 2 Melee: 2 Defence: 2 Armour: 3 Morale: 2

When compared with Mounted Sergeants:

Charge: 8 Melee: 2 Defence: 2 Armour: 3 Morale: 2

Hobilars:

Charge: 6 Melee: 1 Defence: 2 Armour: 3 Morale: 0

and Steppe Cavalry:

Charge: 6 Melee: 2 Defence: 1 Armour: 3 Morale: 0

It is obvious that Jinetes are not that special. So the problem is their abundance as you have noted. Basically the Spanish are spamming this unit, so they could be the problem.

Mounted Sergeants cost less to raise but have the same maintenance costs. The difference is that they require "{SPEARMAKER2, HORSE_BREEDER2}" whereas Jinetes require only {HORSE_BREEDER2} 2. In view of this I would leave the support and training costs alone and increase the Jinetes dependencies to "{SPEARMAKER2, HORSE_BREEDER2}", and remove mounted Sergeants from the Spanish/Aragonese unit roster. The Spearmakers' Workshop and Horse Breeder would both depend on the Keep in the Pocket Mod so that would further restrict them. This will prevent early Jinete spamming and allow the Moors to develop.

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Mounted Sergeants cost less to raise but have the same maintenance costs. The difference is that they require "{SPEARMAKER2, HORSE_BREEDER2}" whereas Jinetes require only {HORSE_BREEDER2} 2. In view of this I would leave the support and training costs alone and increase the Jinetes dependencies to "{SPEARMAKER2, HORSE_BREEDER2}", and remove mounted Sergeants from the Spanish/Aragonese unit roster. The Spearmakers' Workshop and Horse Breeder would both depend on the Keep in the Pocket Mod so that would further restrict them. This will prevent early Jinete spamming and allow the Moors to develop.

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That was the first thing I tried. Well, actually, raising the horse breeder level required to 3 instead of 2. It resulted in the annihilation of Spain/Castile in a short while. Apparently the AI can´t hold them back without spamming cavalry, and has an inborn tendence to do so, as they will still build as many Jinetes as they can if you make them more expensive. :juggle2:

Have you checked the building/training influences?

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"POVERTY_STRICKEN(133), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(13.3), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(159.6), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(159.6), CATHOLIC_TRADER(133), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(133), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(159.6), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(106.4), POPE(66.5), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(106.4), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(66.5), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(106.4), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(159.6), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(133), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(133), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(159.6), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(159.6), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(212.8), REBELS(133), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(33.25)"

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I'd say they're pretty high on the AI's list of priorities overall. Compared to Mounted Sergeants:

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"POVERTY_STRICKEN(119), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(6.8), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(81.6), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(81.6), CATHOLIC_TRADER(68), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(68), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(81.6), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(54.4), POPE(34), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(54.4), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(34), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(54.4), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(81.6), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(68), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(68), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(81.6), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(81.6), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(108.8), REBELS(68), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(11.56)"

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Update:

I had been taking notes from this thread on Friday, and had compiled those notes into a "to do" list. So far I have implemented the following changes from these notes:

1) Renamed the Bulgarian Brigands and installed them as an archer unit for the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Novgorod. Simply called "Archers". These faction now recruit those archers and not the western European ones. The Muslims and Byzantine cannot recruit either, but have their own archers.

2) The Mongol "warriors" are now Dismounted Steppe Horsemen, only available through dismount. Several Steppe cavalry types (KRC, SHC, MHC, MHA, MAC) dismount to these, though Steppe Cavalry and Steppe Horse Archer now dismount to (eastern) Archers, to avoid the player exploiting this and dismounting these units to acquire Dismounted Steppe Horsemen cheaply. The Dismounted Steppe Horsemen no longer emerge with the Mongols.

3) "Mongol Auxilliary Cavalry" 6/3/3/4/6 introduced as an extra mongol medium cavalry unit to emerge with the Mongols - needs info pic.

4) Incest / Secret Incest vice wording changed to be more general.

5) Kataphraktoi, early era only, increased to 40 man scalable units, Kapikulu Sipahi increased to 40 man scalable units, Boyars increased to 40 man scalable units.

6) New Bodyguard unit for Byzantine. Dynatoi Oiketai, in effect scalable 20 man units of Kataphraktoi.

7) New Bodyguard unit for Kievan Rus and Novgorod. <name needed>, in effect scalable 20 man units of Boyars.

8) New Bodyguard unit for Ottomans. Sipahi Oglen, in effect scalable 20 man units of Kapikulu Sipahi.

9) Support costs for bodyguards are very low, training costs are very high.

10) Kontaratoi info pic added

11) Armies crossing from the Sinai into Egypt face a bridge battle - though not in the other direction.

12) Ballistas build time one turn.

13) Gothic Knights available to all catholic factions.

14) Nizari Fedayeen now also depend on the Ribat.

15) Ghazi Infantry depend on the Ribat instead of the Mosque (I'm not sure about axe wielding loons being "trained" in a mosque, a Ribat seems much more appropriate).

16) Russian faction added to the early era as the Kievan Rus faction, occupying many eastern provinces. Symbology and faction colours yet to be finalised. Assistance with finding a suitable symbol for the Kievans and another for Novgorod would be appreciated as the current symbol is incorrect for both. Also info on the royal lines of the Kievans would be helpful.

:bow:

Edit: My experiments with the rebel income buildings have not yielded any results so far. Their economy simply doesn't add up. No matter how much the income/expenses statement states their income to be, they still go into the red within a year or two. I haven't tried the cut off province approach, that would probably work, but is something I'd prefer to avoid.

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My point was that Portugal could be added in earl as "County of Portugal" and in High and Late as as kingdom. It is fairly easy to do this.

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How about "duchy"? It started off as one with the con&#231;uest of Lisbon.

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The Almohads pretty much swept away the Almoravid Dynasty from within as what was effectively a large scale Islamist rebellion.

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Actually, they wiped them out just as the Almoravids had wiped out the taifas . They had come up in a similar fashion "attending the pleads of their iberian brethen". But for practical purposes it&#180;s the same.

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I see the representation of the Cid's occupation of Valencia as an irrelevance. He would only have held Valencia for a matter of years before his death. It was back in Almoravid control quite quickly.

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Indeed. In fact, while he held it, as a vassal of Castile, it WAS largely irrelevant, as pretty much the local laws of the former muslim rulers, and the muslim population, stayed in place. Still the guy&#180;s hyped, for some reason. I guess people find the idea of tying a dead man to a horse and routing an army as hilarious.

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1) Renamed the Bulgarian Brigands and installed them as an archer unit for the Russians, Poles, Hungarians and Novgorod. Simply called "Archers". These faction now recruit those archers and not the western European ones. The Muslims and Byzantine cannot recruit either, but have their own archers.

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So, if I get this right: Now Byzantines&muslims (which had access to "specialized" compound bow units) have access to both these and a "regular" bow unit? :nod:

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The Dismounted Steppe Horsemen no longer emerge with the Mongols.

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Kind of made you wonder "Where did they leave their horses?" :p
Besides, they were a hindrance on the mongol AI, as once you had beaten back their cavalry, they lacked enough mobility NOT to be s&#231;uikked by cavalry

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16) Russian faction added to the early era as the Kievan Rus faction, occupying many eastern provinces. Symbology and faction colours yet to be finalised. Assistance with finding a suitable symbol for the Kievans and another for Novgorod would be appreciated as the current symbol is incorrect for both. Also info on the royal lines of the Kievans would be helpful.

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Nice. I think that Novgorod had something on the order of a black castle as an image, not sure

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6) New Bodyguard unit for Byzantine. Dynatoi Oiketai, in effect scalable 20 man units of Kataphraktoi

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Royal palace dependent?

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4) Incest / Secret Incest vice wording changed to be more general.

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Another good idea. Afterall, the dynastic mismash can mean that a "king" is marrying his cousin or niece, not his daughter.
Could also the "piety penalty" made less steep? And/or add some other kind of penalty, such as morale. After all, dynastic inbreeding was run-of-the-mill...

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12) Ballistas build time one turn.

13) Gothic Knights available to all catholic factions.

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:smile:

Btw, are the Gothic Knight stats changed? I seem to recall you mentioned changing them in an earlier version, but I don&#180;t know if that made it in or not...

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

How about "duchy"? It started off as one with the con&#231;uest of Lisbon.

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Probably.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Actually, they wiped them out just as the Almoravids had wiped out the taifas . They had come up in a similar fashion "attending the pleads of their iberian brethen". But for practical purposes it&#180;s the same.

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Not what I've read. The Almohads emerged from the Atlas mountains regions (within Almoravid territory) and overthrew the Almoravids. They were a movement with popular support both in Andalusia and the Maghreb. They appeared as a direct result of the lax attitude to islam among the Almoravids whom of which may be considered "moderate".

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Indeed. In fact, while he held it, as a vassal of Castile, it WAS largely irrelevant, as pretty much the local laws of the former muslim rulers, and the muslim population, stayed in place. Still the guy&#180;s hyped, for some reason. I guess people find the idea of tying a dead man to a horse and routing an army as hilarious.

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It seems that CA simply felt the need to represent these famous historical characters even though they don't really fit in. Valencia should start as a Muslim province perhaps occupied by Castile, with El Cid as the general, or as simply an Almoravid province.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

So, if I get this right: Now Byzantines&muslims (which had access to "specialized" compound bow units) have access to both these and a "regular" bow unit? :nod:

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No, the Byzantines will not be able to train them. Only the Rus, Novgorod, Hungarians and Poles. The unit will be compound bow equipped for now, though if this imbalances the game somewhat, I will change this. The compound bow is still in the testing phase after all. It would be a good idea to have a more generic unit equipped with it in order that it can be fully tested.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Kind of made you wonder "Where did they leave their horses?" :p
Besides, they were a hindrance on the mongol AI, as once you had beaten back their cavalry, they lacked enough mobility NOT to be s&#231;uikked by cavalry

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I found them easy pickings and it was annoying to see the first mongol battle consisting almost entirely of them.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Nice. I think that Novgorod had something on the order of a black castle as an image, not sure

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I'll have to look into this. I was working on the Kiev one yesterday, but wasn't happy with the result in the end, so I'll start that again when I've more time.

@Noir: Kiev symbol :bow:

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Royal palace dependent?

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No, but could be I suppose. This is not an issue as yet, as I need to re-do a lot of the unit dependencies anyway. I have changed the Metalsmith into the Blacksmith and removed the weapon upgrades. The Blacksmith no longer depends on the Iron mine and can be built in all provinces. I intend to use this building as the prerequisite for:

1) Militias such as UM, MS and Halberdiers
2) All Cavalry
3) Axe equipped units such as Vikings, woodsmen or Ghazi etc
4) Lower class sword units such as clansmen or gallowglasses

My reasoning for this, on a historical basis, is that crude swords, axes and pole arms used by the peasant levies were usually rude weapons knocked up by a blacksmith. Any respectable smithy could put together a decent axe, but forging a good sword or battle axe, especially that which was fit for nobility was a different trade requiring much more skill and expertise.

I have also removed the armour upgrades from the armourer.

The next stage will be to assess every units equipment needs and add the necessary prerequisites required to equip that unit. My hope is that this will not be at all complicated, but in fact simple, perhaps simpler than it is at present. The system will work something like this:
A few units need first to be examined to use as examples:

Men at Arms: This unit has a helm, shield, sword and mail armour. It would probably need at least the Armourers' Workshop, as I will be using this as the default base level armourer. The Swordsmith would be required for the sword.

Chivalric Men at Arms: As above, though the sword and equipment would be of higher quality so; Swordsmiths' Workshop and Armourer's Guild.

Futuwwa: These would be a fanatical unit that would also depend on the Ribat. The additional dependencies would be the Swordsmith and Bowyers' Workshop. The latter due to the unit having the compound bow.

Turcoman Foot Soldiers: Swordsmith, Bowyers' Workshop, Armourers' Workshop.

Psiloi: Swordsmith, Bowyers' Workshop, Armourer. The armourer would be the default for units that are virtually unarmourerd (armour: 1) but carry a shield.

Feudal Knights: Royal Court, Horse Breeder's Workshop, Blacksmiths' Workshop, Spearmakers' Workshop, Armourer's Workshop, Swordsmiths' Workshop. This seems a lot and come to think of it I haven't checked if a unit can support this many dependencies, but if it does work it won't be an issue as the build times and costs of most military buildings will be reduced anyway to assist the AI. I've added the Swordsmith line to all Knights because I feel that in reality they would make use of maces, swords, battle axes flails etc, whilst in close combat.

Chivalric Knights and Order Knights: Would be as above but with all buildings upgraded one level.

Lancers: Would be as above but with Royal Court and Armourer upgraded one more level.

Gothic Knights: Master Level Military buildings and highest level royal court.

Hobilars: Spearmaker, Horse Farmer, Blacksmith.

Mounted Sergeants: Spearmakers' Workshop, Armourer, Horse Farmer, Blacksmith.

Crossbowmen: Bowyers' Workshop, Armourers' Workshop.

Archer: Bowyer


All of these are only examples, and those dependencies may not be the ones used. I could base the requirements on unit stats also, instead of just gut instinct. For example on: attack, weapon type, armour level, is cavalry?, has shield? AP?, anti cav?, cav defence, etc, etc, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Another good idea. Afterall, the dynastic mismash can mean that a "king" is marrying his cousin or niece, not his daughter.
Could also the "piety penalty" made less steep? And/or add some other kind of penalty, such as morale. After all, dynastic inbreeding was run-of-the-mill...

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I'm not sure if vnvs can be modded in this way, I'm sure they're not, I'll have to check.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Btw, are the Gothic Knight stats changed? I seem to recall you mentioned changing them in an earlier version, but I don&#180;t know if that made it in or not...

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They were changed in v1.0.6.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=181

:bow:

I like some of the innovations mentioned. I'll give some more detailed feedback and input when I have more time.

(split from post in the other thread)

I was messing with the unit rosters today, removing redundant units (I'm no where near done as yet). I have renamed Chivalric Sergeants and Vanilla Square Shield Spearmen to "Sergeants". They are now effectively Sergeants for the three eras. The first have been given a +1 morale bonus as they were severely lacking previously. The others are unchanged for now. As to the faction association:

[Early - Catholic Square Shield Spearmen] Sergeants: All Catholic factions except Danes, Hungarians and Poles.

[High - Feudal] Sergeants: All Catholic factions except Italians

[Late - Chivalric] Sergeants: All Catholic factions except Italians

Armoured Spearmen are renamed simply Spearmen and are Russian/Novgorod High/Late only.

[Early - Round Shield] Spearmen (same stats as Early Sergeants): Hungarians and Poles

[Muslim - Square Shield*] Spearmen (same stats as Early Sergeants): Moors/Turks Early only.

*broken off into a separate unit

In the Early era the Danes have their own Spearmen, namely Viking Carls (originally thralls), so they don't need the Early Sergeants nor the Round Shield Spearmen.

The Egyptians have the Nubians in all eras, so don't need the Muslim Spearmen.

The Rus and Novgorod have the Rus Spearmen in Early.

So that does it, for now, for the spear units. The Byzantine have their own Kontaratoi, the Italians have Italian Infantry for High and Late, the Turks Saracens from high onwards and the Moors al-Muwahhidun Infantry ("Almohad" Infantry) for High/Late. So I think I have that pretty well covered. This is all based on an idea posted by YourLordandConqueror. :bow:

The next stage is the Militias, then it's onto the training dependency buildings. Nearly all of those need changing, and I mean logical changes.