-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
In your case perhaps it wasnt a mistake. I came to TW at shogun and I didnt regret the time I put into the game, MTW came along and I bought it right away, my mistake as at the same time I was buying games from another company that was notroious for putting out almost finished games and getting feedback, yadda yadda.
However the simplicity of this is that one must understand that this is an industry issue , not exclusive to CA,and the easiest, direct and most fruitful way for the end user to affect the situation is by them assuming control over thier singular piece to the equation (that piece being the holy grail of the process).
Thats your purchase, once you give your money over, your pulled into the process. I remember playing Koei games on my SNES before message boards, heck i didnt even have a PC. Now its a right of passage to get a game and go seek out the official patchs and the community mods.
The simplicity of the process and the consumers role in it, isnt complex alpaca. Once you make the purchase it does become more problematic, but here we are years later with the TW series, do you think the cat is out of the bag yet?
If it isnt I'll let everyone in. Games are released today early with minimal testing (this is the main issue) because of fan sites, free mods, pre order, direct downloads, zealous flattering reviews, and solid sales. Hence you have issues, and they dont get corrected until after sales are made.
Very simple, the corrections are made after the games release, not before and this simple reality is all one needs to look at to understand the industry has parlayed the process into a nice business model.
Yet, through the haze there is the customer, and thier credit card or cash and thier willingness to go along. I dont propose that my solution is the end all be all, but it is the one solution offerred where the end user has 100% control, that makes it a no brainer IMHO.
:logic:
Yes I agree, the thing is however that it's hard for people (and I include myself here) to stop buying any non-blizzard games at all. It's a really harsh step to refrain from purchasing bugged and unfinished products exactly because, as you say, the whole industry is into it. That said, I personally have to admit that I was closing my eyes to the problem until maybe half a year ago (although I didn't buy too many games in general, only strategy games really).
You're right that my posts are maybe a bit anti-CA here - I am mainly talking about CA because the guild is a TW forum. I won't buy any more games on release, and I won't buy them at all until consensus on the respective fansite forums is that they're in a decently playable state.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
At the end of the day, I suspect there is no chance that bitching about problems that have already been declared insoluble is going to greatly improve the situation. Requesting and suggesting to a Creative Assembly representative is one thing; being inhospitable and mildly insulting is entirely another. All we can really do with any possible degree of success is to politely suggest that Creative Assembly sort out its' priorities for the next Total War release (Empire: Total War) and hope they grasp the fact that a strong fanbase is imperative for a continued fan community.
On a lighter note, I dreamt of playing Empire: Total War last night after reading one of the Sharpe's books. How... expectant of me :beam: .
Kindest regards,
-Max
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
The same Civ IV that required patch 1.52 that attempt to correct memory leaks? oh wait, those were corrected by a modification by users for free first right? Yes you got a lot of new content with fraxis work, but that dosent negate the fact that your exampled company is guilty of the same business model.
Release a game, let end users report on bugs, patch and fix. The only difference is they kept fixing it (and it needed to be fixed, as I read it on some forums Civ IV wasnt a barrel of laughs for some.)
Yeah Fraxis kept support for Civ IV strong and stuck with it, I tip my hat to you nice comparisson.
:medievalcheers:
I beta tested many many patches which had totally different numbers than the public releases so I'm not sure which patch 1.52 actually refers to. To some extent its irrelevant though, since I have no idea what "memory leaks" you're refering to either. The only reference to memory leaks that I could find was a comment from a linux user that he had a memory leak and had fixed it. IIRC there were some problems with the initial roll out with bad quality discs etc (2K games responsibility) and some people had conflicts with ATI cards. After the massive problems with CIV3 and the bad attitude from Firaxis in the early days after its release, I was more than willing to go into "attack mode" over "shoddy workmanship", and did so. As it turned out though, Firaxis "jumped through hoops" to fix problems, most of which were none of their responsibility (including the ATI "bug" - which I never had despite an ATI card that was problematic for others). Looking at it in hindsight, my conclusion was that most of the incompatibility issues were actually user problems.
Were there bugs with CIV4's release? Of course there were (and are) bugs in the game and some solutions have been posted by users (most of whom work for Firaxis or are beta testers). No game as complicated as CIV4 or TW will be bug free at release and the game developers know that (as do we). What is important, is their support for the game after release. Others have mentioned to Blizzard and Stardock as examples of good support and I pointed out Firaxis' "about face" after their disaster with CIV3. SEGA's lack of support for M2TW is not the industry norm and I would suggest that it can be changed. All it takes is a desire by SEGA to produce a finished product. You seem to suggest that we should not buy any games unless they are guaranteed perfect, and that isnt gonna happen.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Baron
At the end of the day, I suspect there is no chance that bitching about problems that have already been declared insoluble is going to greatly improve the situation. Requesting and suggesting to a Creative Assembly representative is one thing; being inhospitable and mildly insulting is entirely another. All we can really do with any possible degree of success is to politely suggest that Creative Assembly sort out its' priorities for the next Total War release (Empire: Total War) and hope they grasp the fact that a strong fanbase is imperative for a continued fan community.
On a lighter note, I dreamt of playing Empire: Total War last night after reading one of the Sharpe's books. How... expectant of me :beam: .
Kindest regards,
-Max
With all due respect, we've been down the "polite request/suggest" road too many times. The only thing SEGA has to decide is whether they want to support their games and keep some of their die-hard fans or continue down the road they're on now and say adios to the last of us.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
BTW, "obviously" CA decided that Kingdoms is good enough that it needs no patch. In a sense they are correct as indeed Kingdoms is arguably one of their best releases. Challenging scenarios, interesting and unique factions, and no serious game breaking bugs (though some missing features ...). However, that is the very reason why they should patch it. This way they ruin all the hard work that went into desinging the scenarios and factions; what everyone will remeber now is the lack of support and not the new features (controlling reinforcement armies) or new scenarios.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
In a sense they are correct as indeed Kingdoms is arguably one of their best releases. Challenging scenarios, interesting and unique factions, and no serious game breaking bugs (though some missing features ...).
I voted in the poll.
And no offense mate, but you're the only "long-timer" I've seen say anything remotely like that about Kingdoms, the consensus has always been the exact opposite. It's not like it matters for me personally at any rate, I've bought my last CA game until they get back to their roots, and I am boycotting any games that are infested with Starforce or Securom v7.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I'll add my name to the list of mugs who bought M2 and Kingdoms. I wont make the same mistake with Empire. I'll pick it up 2nd hand when there are some decent mods out for it.
How can I get rid of the SecuRom reg entries?
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primative1
How can I get rid of the SecuRom reg entries?
Nice question. IMHO, installing "rootkits" or whatever they might be called on customers' computers is unforgivable. :rtwno: It's surprisingly overlooked through this thread, although it's much more important than inadequate support or missing features, not that those are negligible.
IMHO, the whole copy protection business is nonsense. There is no protection that cannot be broken. But if you really must do it, do it in a decent way, without breaking your customers' computers. ~:pissed:
Despite my total disappointment with MTW2, I was feeling very enthusiastic about Empires, its naval battles and all. But if it contains SecuRom or any other type of malware, it shall not make it to my computer. :no:
I voted no at the poll.
.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Yea, TinCow, you appear to represent CA on this forum with deletions of critical posts and the like.
I want to know how I get rid of unwanted crap, re: SecuRom reg entries, from my pc. Do I have to reformat my hdd?
A prompt reply would be appreciated.
Guess what I voted at the poll.........no prize sorry.........
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primative1
I want to know how I get rid of unwanted crap, re: SecuRom reg entries, from my pc. Do I have to reformat my hdd?
http://forums.tweakguides.com/showthread.php?t=4027
Guide to removal. It's not for non-tech folks.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Here is some info on SecureRom removal from the 2K (Bioshock) forum (note to moderators: this is about removing leftover SecureRom files after the game is uninstalled, it's not about breaking the CP):
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=31
And if you read through that, you'll know why some of us are refusing to buy Kingdoms, and won't buy Empire, if they do something like this again. It's absolutely insane to expect your customer to jump through those kinds of hoops (if that procedure even works... I haven't tried it), to remove copy protection that should be automatically removed when the game is uninstalled.
BTW, I bought Bioshock because in the early days it looked like the devs were promising a removal utility. Now it looks like they've kicked the ball back into Sony/SecureRom's court. Very disappointing... so I might have to actually try that method.
And if you think leaving it there is just a minor annoyance... I've already had to flag off the SecureRom directory because it tripped a failed backup warning with my current backup software (SyncBackSE). That's just a taste of the kinds of things that can happen, and cause additional user headaches, when you have hidden files that look like viruses and rootkits (even if they're not) to backup and anti-malware software.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Thank you guys, I'll give it a try tomorrow after work.
Sad that we, legit game-players, have to do this tho given that it probably doesn't slow down hackers for 2 minutes.
cheers again.
ps. I am not going to touch bioshock now I know about this, damn shame 'cos it sounds like a great game.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
And no offense mate, but you're the only "long-timer" I've seen say anything remotely like that about Kingdoms, the consensus has always been the exact opposite.
Perhaps because I am the only "long-timer" who has Kingdoms ... ~;p
Bit more seriously my impression is that most people who actually played Kingdoms are happy about it. Of course, there are some easy factions and both the strategic and the tactical AI are just as weak as before; but the campaigns are well designed and the factions are more unique in their strength and weaknesses than in MTW2. All in all IMHO a good expansion and if someone likes MTW2 then he/she will like Kingdoms too.
The bugs could be annoying (broken features, zero loyalty heirs, etc.) but not game breakers. Still I would expect CA to fix them.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
The bugs could be annoying (broken features, zero loyalty heirs, etc.)
And the battles not working, which is as good a game-breaker as any.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerH
I beta tested many many patches which had totally different numbers than the public releases so I'm not sure which patch 1.52 actually refers to. To some extent its irrelevant though, since I have no idea what "memory leaks" you're refering to either. The only reference to memory leaks that I could find was a comment from a linux user that he had a memory leak and had fixed it. IIRC there were some problems with the initial roll out with bad quality discs etc (2K games responsibility) and some people had conflicts with ATI cards. After the massive problems with CIV3 and the bad attitude from Firaxis in the early days after its release, I was more than willing to go into "attack mode" over "shoddy workmanship", and did so. As it turned out though, Firaxis "jumped through hoops" to fix problems, most of which were none of their responsibility (including the ATI "bug" - which I never had despite an ATI card that was problematic for others). Looking at it in hindsight, my conclusion was that most of the incompatibility issues were actually user problems.
Were there bugs with CIV4's release? Of course there were (and are) bugs in the game and some solutions have been posted by users (most of whom work for Firaxis or are beta testers). No game as complicated as CIV4 or TW will be bug free at release and the game developers know that (as do we). What is important, is their support for the game after release. Others have mentioned to Blizzard and Stardock as examples of good support and I pointed out Firaxis' "about face" after their disaster with CIV3. SEGA's lack of support for M2TW is not the industry norm and I would suggest that it can be changed. All it takes is a desire by SEGA to produce a finished product.
I wont go on about Civ IV, I will say that the memory leaks were a linux issue as a I read it. I will say that you have pointed out through your reply the same problems with Civ IV as with any games, it had problems, and thats my point. If you dont want to hold the dev repsonsible for bugs/issues, okay.
Where you have a point is Fraxis continued to support the game.
Quote:
You seem to suggest that we should not buy any games unless they are guaranteed perfect, and that isnt gonna happen.
I am no suggesting that, perhaps you need to re read my posts because you got the wrong impression. I am suggesting that end users, the ones complaining about support should envoke thier power in the process by not purchasing games until they are at the point they deem the suitable.
There is no excuse otherwise, the web is ripe with message boards, patches, mods, no one should have bought kingdoms until much later into the release so issues could be revealed and a educated decsion made if it was a good product for them.
Instead you have people whinning about patches, support bugs etc, not one of them has come forth and said "yeah, I bought it to early, you know all games are released kind of buggy now"
As one poster said:
Quote:
SpencerH No game as complicated as CIV4 or TW will be bug free at release and the game developers know that (as do we).
Then if this is true and we all know it then its partly the end users fault for making the purchase with that knowledge.
Do you understand what I am suggesting now SpencerH? Or do I have to repeat it a 6th time ? :surrender2:
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I am not sure that we can have an effect here, alone.
It seems to me that if some of the Magazines picked it up and got it to a wider audience that they would put someone on it. But with a few exceptions of bad reviews the Mags seem to say almost everything is the best there ever was rather than saying that most games are released too early with shoddy play testing etc. When you can think of a way to make it hot for the bean counters then you have a chance to make something happen rather than just wasting time writing gripes.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
It seems to me that if some of the Magazines picked it up and got it to a wider audience that they would put someone on it. But with a few exceptions of bad reviews the Mags seem to say almost everything is the best there ever was rather than saying that most games are released too early with shoddy play testing etc. When you can think of a way to make it hot for the bean counters then you have a chance to make something happen rather than just wasting time writing gripes.
An excellent idea to be sure, but it'll never, ever happen. The gaming sites and mags aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them, and they make the lion's share of their income from the gaming industry advertising. Look at big name titles like Half-life 2, Bioshock, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Hellgate, etc etc, and all the hype and advertising that's thrown in behind them. Now look at the average review score for each. The amount of money a publisher throws behind a game's hype and advertising on the sites and mags has a direct correlation to it's review score and "airtime", thus in effect buying a good score. Fallout 3 is going to get a 9.0 or above score when it's released, probably a 9.5 or above, no matter what shape it's really in or how good it is, you can quote me on this. The only thing that ever causes a big name title to sub-optimal scores (as in down to an 8.0, which is the glass floor) is some severe, and I mean severe as in crashing frequently no matter what, game-breaking bugs that are impossible to overlook. Also, reviews often tend to be "revised" several times before they are published by supervisors, often removing quite a bit of the less-than-stellar talking points and knocking the score up several times. Look at what happened to the IGN review of Super Mario Sunshine several years back.
It's still going to boil down to grassroots operations like us, and don't underestimate your ability to make a difference. As Odin said, it's really becoming a rite of passage for PC gaming these days to find the biggest unofficial sites and official patches to get a game working. Thus I have good reason to believe that more than just a few of the total amount of people who own the games read these forums and sites occasionally. Forums, word of mouth, any personal interaction, etc, are all doable and will make a difference in the long run, it's just up to us.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Well, after all is said and done, it seems very likely that CA is not going to support their games properly, which is a grand shame considering the promise with which the company started and I dont think they will really take our concerns seriously so I'll leave CA with this...
At present I tell everybody who has a vague interest in strategy games to avoid the Total War series these days due to securerom and the general patching attitude on display (plus I study military history at uni so I get around to a lot of interested folks)
Im not going to bankrupt CA to be sure but word can speard very quickly and I doubt Im the only one doing the same. My wallet is now closed to CA for the immediate future...do as you wish...
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I've been playing TW games since I was 10 (shogun total war, 2000) and played every single title incl M2TW kingdoms.
The newer verisions of the TW games (especially M2TW) are full of bugs, and needs to be fixed! You will loose another customer here, who have used roughly 40% of my living years dedicated to your games...
/signed
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Patches to me are a double edged sword. If they just fixed the known problems it would be great. But I think most of the time and expense goes into the wish lists and things that work but not everyone cares for.
If they would just fix the problems I would be happy, but they seldom do because of the other crap and yes I mean crap that they wind up changing.
They should just set up a small shop in India to fix problems and it would hardly make a dent in budgets and leave the nice to have stuff to the moding community. After all it is mostly just nice to have stuff, or even unwanted stuff that they add in most of the patches.
Working 2 hand weapons, pike, spear wall, and being able to fight elephant artillery is more important than much of the other junk.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I haven't bought M2TW or Kingdoms yet, and this tread seems to give some good reasons why I shouldn't buy them in the future. By the way what is that SecuRom thing everyone talks about?
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot
At present I tell everybody who has a vague interest in strategy games to avoid the Total War series these days due to securerom and the general patching attitude on display (plus I study military history at uni so I get around to a lot of interested folks)
You see that's the real issue. You as a military history student are not really the target audience for these games, and as such I doubt your boycott is really of much concern. It's about time people started to wake up and realise that TW games are not being marketed as historically accurate warfare simulations. Yes they started to look like they might move in that direction after MTW was released, and people did assume that CA would take this direction. That clearly hasn't happened, and because of this patching is not such an issue. Also as one of those boycotting due to Securom you are also in a tiny minority as most of the target audience for these games probably haven't heard of it.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
I am dissapointed in the direction that TW games have gone. I am, at heart, an old school strategy fan. I cut my teeth on the old dos games like HQ and Patton Strikes Back. Graduated to Panzer General and Military Madness (or Nectaris as it's been re-released as). Spent countless hours playing the Axis & Allies board games. STW's campaign map is pretty much an exact copy of Shogun (now renamed Samurai Swords) which was made by the same people that made the original A&A.
The point of all of this, I enjoy a good strategic challenge far more than flashy graphics. I played Civilizations for years despite how it looked. I got into the TW series because of STW due to the similarity of it's campaign map when compared to the GameMaster series games I have previously mentioned. I didn't care how STW looked. It was fun. I liked how you could see every individual guy and I liked how the game left the dead bodies on the field. While STW was not the first game to do these things with their tactical component, I would argue that they were the first to meld it well to a campaign component that was fun and challenging.
MTW came out and it was STW on a grander scale. They improved the campaign component, kept the tactical component fun, and seemed to sacrifice little. I was hooked and played it for years. I skipped RTW due to not having a computer that could handle it at the time when it came out.
Last Christmas, I bought myself a new computer so I decided I would try the newly released M2TW. So, I jumped from STW/MTW right into M2TW. It was quite a difference. While the graphics are stunning, gameplay was sacrificed. Like Econ21 stated earlier, the strategic AI is a total joke. While the tactical component is fun, it slogs my computer down so much on high graphic settings that it hold little apeal to me. I can only establish my army in a line, fire arrows, and then flank with cavalry so many times before I get bored. I basically play for the campaign component and autoresolve most battles. I have more fun building things in the cities. Since the AI is so sleepy, I can slowly tech up and get cool looking provinces and armies.
But that will only take me so far. If the new TW title keeps sacrificing substance for flash, they will lose me. They already dissapointed me with the whole Securom debacle. Their lack of patches also dissapoints me. On one hand, I don't know if it would be productive to complain about a business behaving like a business. On the other, I'm a customer and don't mind making my opinion heard.
This isn't a total "CA bashing" post. My feelings on the matter are more complicated than that. I have the feeling that CA (and/or SEGA) have gambled that they can make flashy graphic intensive games while placating/ignoring a small subculture that mods those games. While somewhat understandable from a economic point of view (people in this forum hardly represent the bulk of CA's target audience or revenue stream), it is dissapointing to see a company take the approach that they are taking. Sure they have developers come in here and say a few words. I appreciate that and it's far more than what some companies do. But, if it isn't backed up with patches and/or game changes, then it doesn't amount to much.
So, I still think TW games are fun but I have noticed a disturbing trend from my own biased strategy gamer point of view that shows that the developers seem to be valuing flashy graphics over gameplay. If this trend continues, then it will be doubtful that I will ever purchase Kingdoms, ETW, or anything else new from CA. I actually popped STW back into my computer and enjoyed being able to play a simple, yet fun, strategy game again. So I will enjoy CA's previous TW games but whether I will continue to remain a consumer of future products remains uncertain.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Debroedere
By the way what is that SecuRom thing everyone talks about?
SecuRom is supposedly a copy protection software. (It supposedly prevents copies of game disks from being used instead of the legitimate ones.) However, it acts as malware in which it places itself into your system and remains there. It cannot be removed/uninstalled in normal ways. Even if you uninstall Kingdoms, it remains in your system and causes malfunction. Details are discussed in this thread.
.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
You see that's the real issue. You as a military history student are not really the target audience for these games, and as such I doubt your boycott is really of much concern.
....
It's about time people started to wake up and realise that TW games are not being marketed as historically accurate warfare simulations.
I wasnt always a military history student I started TW games when I was quite young.
Id like to think Im a reasonably bright chap...and I did intimate in my previous post that my decision (and advice to others) not to buy is going to make any difference to CA but as I also said, there are no doubt plenty more of poeple like me the world over...
And seriously dude, dont insult me...you think I play TW games for historical accuracy!? :laugh4:
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
.
SecuRom is supposedly a copy protection software. (It supposedly prevents copies of game disks from being used instead of the legitimate ones.) However, it acts as malware in which it places itself into your system and remains there. It cannot be removed/uninstalled in normal ways. Even if you uninstall Kingdoms, it remains in your system and causes malfunction. Details are discussed in
this thread.
.
Not patching a game is one thing, but including malware on purpose in a disk is a bridge to far. We should hire some lawyers and see what they think about this...
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
.
Now, I don't think that CA intently and purposedly included it to harm the customers' computers. It was, apparently, another case of under-research. But it has to be remedied anyway.
.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
Perhaps because I am the only "long-timer" who has Kingdoms ... ~;p
Bit more seriously my impression is that most people who actually played Kingdoms are happy about it.
I really believe I would enjoy it. If they remove SecuRom, I will buy it. If SecuRom remains, I will not buy it. I realize this makes me sound far less smart than arguing about unit walking speeds, but this issue really is this simple for me.
-
Re: No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Baron
All we can really do with any possible degree of success is to politely suggest that Creative Assembly sort out its' priorities for the next Total War release (Empire: Total War) and hope they grasp the fact that a strong fanbase is imperative for a continued fan community.
Or we could just not buy Empires, encourage magazines such as PC Gamer to recognized our problems with CA, and tell others not to buy the game. Then maybe they will listen, when they actually take a hit where they can feel it.
